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Old 04-12-2017, 06:26 PM
GeoJelly GeoJelly is offline
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Default Solved my Round in the Chamber Problem

I have been subjected to some criticism here for my refusal to carry a Glock, or any other non-safety striker fired auto, with a round in the chamber. After the most recent incident - with a long thread here - about a store owner losing his life (with what may have been an empty-chamber auto), I decided to trade-in my Glock 42. There wasn't a thing wrong with it - I had zero malfs or any other problems when I fired it. A few days ago I saw a nice M640 in one of the local stores, and decided to get it. I came out pretty good - $375 for my G42 and the M640 was $525. I was concerned it was one of the police trade-ins, but it came with the correct box and was made in 2016. No major scratches but the cylinder had quite a turn ring dug into it - but that's easy to fix and it looks great, to me, now. So far, good news.

It passed all of my usual revolver checks - except one. Carry-up is strong and lock-up really is tight. The yolk ... ... does not flex out at all with moderate pressure on the side of the cylinder. I carried my usual unprimed case and checked B/C alignment with a flashlight - it's perfect as far as I can see. I noticed, though, that the B/C gap was very tight. Well, long story made short, the B/C gap is .002 - with another .002 almost .003 of end-shake. There isn't any evidence that the cylinder is rubbing on the forcing cone, but it's very, very close. Strictly a guess, I think the previous owner may have had the end-shake repaired, and whoever did that overdid the job. I'm going to fire it later this week, and I won't fire any lead in it. As long as the cylinder doesn't have any binding thru 15 or 20 rounds, I'm just going to leave it alone. I doubt that I would survive any altercation past 15 rounds anyway plus I only carry one reload! I know this isn't the gun-smithing section but any thoughts on the tight B/C gap would be greatly appreciated!

Edited to add: I have no reservations at all about carrying it with five rounds - the same round count as I carried in my G42. And, it came with the now-$50-on-eBay S&W logo banana grips but I put some nice Altamont's on it... These things are sooooo nice - the only sad thing is I had to wait until I was 60+ to get one ...

Last edited by GeoJelly; 04-13-2017 at 01:06 PM. Reason: Mention five rounds
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:39 PM
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Put a .002 washer in to reduce end shake to .001 and you will have .004 BC gap. Routine stuff for any competent revolver smith.
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:48 PM
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So what were your reservations concerning carrying a live round in the chamber? Or, can you send me the link to the other thread?
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Old 04-12-2017, 07:09 PM
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The thread I made the mistake of commenting in was the Dunkin' Donut Drop thread:

Accidental discharge in Coconut Creek FL Dunkin Donuts

As far as round in the chamber, I've never been comfortable - even with the length of the typical Glock trigger-pull, carrying a round in the chamber, on the striker-fired autos, without a safety. I have a (lowly) Ruger LC9s, with a safety, that I have no reservations about a chambered round with it, at all. The LC9s is poorly thought of by the cognoscenti, but I think it is a well-engineered and well-made handgun. Should there be a Shield 2.0 in 9mm - I intend to get one finances permitting - although I think it may be harder to conceal than the LC9s.

As far as the end-shake washer, does the ejector rod have to be unscrewed to put those in? (I know, that's a pretty dumb question - I think the answer is yes but I looked at the E/S washer reviews on Midway and it didn't really say ...)

Last edited by GeoJelly; 04-12-2017 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention end-shake washer ...
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Old 04-12-2017, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
The LC9s is poorly thought of by the cognoscenti
should read "The LC9s is poorly thought of by the IGNORANT"

Because anyone who has spent any amount of time with the LC9S will come away impressed both with it's accuracy and it's superb trigger. IMO Ruger hit an out of the park Home Run with this particular pistol.

BTW, I carry the LC9S Pro every day with a round in the chamber and my Safety for this model is that it is ALWAYS resident in it's pocket holster for any routine handling. Plain truth is that if you have it in a holster there just isn't any real potential for the trigger to get snagged. As for concerns about what might happen if I had to actually draw the pistol, I have spent many hours practicing this skill with the pistol empty but the striker cocked and have trained myself to the point where I am confident I won't hit the trigger during a draw.

However I won't even consider criticizing anyone who prefers the standard LC9S with it's thumb safety and it's magazine safety. If you have children in the home multiple layers of safety is always the best approach. It's also good to insure that any child over 4 understands proper safe handling and the importance of never treating a firearm as a toy.

Quite simply circumstances can dictate which model is the better choice for a specific individual and I will give a tip of the hat to Ruger for allowing it's customers to have a choice they can make for themselves.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:34 AM
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I'm staying out of the one-in-the-chamber discussion, which seems on the verge of becoming testy.

The fact is, you made a different choice that, as you said, solved that problem. I think it was a good choice; but the point is that you seem satisfied with it and needn't justify that.
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Old 04-13-2017, 05:13 AM
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I'm really not a huge fan of magazine disconnects in general.

For one thing, it's additional parts for no particular reason. I'm never a fan of additional parts.

On a competition gun, it's unnecessary and is just another thing to clean up to perfect the trigger pull.

On a defensive pistol, I think it's downright dangerous. If the magazine isn't fully inserted, I'd rather get off one shot than none at all. And I would greatly prefer the option of firing the chambered round if I'm interrupted during a tactical reload.

The one exception I would make is duty carry. When wrestling with a subject and potentially losing control of the pistol, or transporting a prisoner, it's possible to hit the magazine release, partially-ejecting the magazine, and preventing the pistol from being used until the attempted cop-killer figures out what's wrong. This would give the officer in question time to relocate, regain control, or draw a backup weapon.

As for OP and his revolver, I'd have been happy with the 42, but I'm not the one that has to carry it.
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:07 AM
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The Centennial is a great choice for CCW. Yours is very nice

I will stay far far away from the empty chamber argument/discussion....

I don't think that you would have an issue with the gap unless you are shooting a lot of dirty reloads. Give it a range session and report back with your findings. Your S&W was made during the period S&W offered a lifetime warranty, so you can always send it back to S&W for work.
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:43 AM
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What I got out of this thread is you solved your problem and you are comfortable with what you are carrying. Sounds like a win win to me.
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:10 AM
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You do to be comfortable with what you carry - doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about a gun, if you aren't comfortable with it it needs to be replaced. You did the right thing.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:02 AM
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I do not own a Glock nor do I ever plan too because I do not like plastic BUT if I were a LEO that is exactly what I'd carry! They are very reliable, high capacity, accurate and reliable guns - just not my NON LEO "style".

There is an inherent danger with ANY gun and the onus is upon the user to assure there is never an accidental discharge. A gun does NOT go off by itself. The risk is much out-weighed by the pluses IMHO. While there are may reliable and high capacity DA Autos around, the Glock is probably the most popular among LEO agency's nationwide. AGAIN....... I am NO Glock fan by any stretch, just saying what I believe to be true.
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Old 04-14-2017, 08:53 AM
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Ill go out and say it. That revolver is no more safe or unsafe than your Glock.

If you are smart and pay attention you will never have an issue with either.

If you are an idiot you will have a negligent discharge with either
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:47 AM
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In the 1960's I started with a model 60, then the semi-auto years 1911's , 45 acp , Walther PPK , and afterwards giving every hot new handgun a try...always searching for the perfect one...come the year 2005 , and after all that looking , trying , testing ....the good old S&W J-frame , (this one an Airweight 637) has won the contest of "most perfect ". I should have stuck with what I started years ago .....but the trip to discover the 637 was fun.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:01 AM
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The 640 is a fine weapon.

In regards to the Glock... If the trigger pull weight was increased to the same weight as that as the revolver, would you have been comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber?
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
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The 640 is a fine weapon.

In regards to the Glock... If the trigger pull weight was increased to the same weight as that as the revolver, would you have been comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber?
Yes, the G42 trigger pull was just too light - a heavier trigger pull would have made me more comfortable. I also ordered a Glock Block doohickey which fit very well - although I subsequently sold the Glock. The block device would've taken less than a second to pop out before firing...

Member sigp220.45 - over in the Dunkin' Donut thread made the following statement about his brother (and much more eloquently than me):

" ... The reality is he lives in a wealthy ski resort town with little to no crime, and is probably ahead of 90 percent of its population by even having a gun nearby. I wouldn't carry that way, but if its how he wants to do it then its not my business. It would take him a second or two to chamber a round in the extremely unlikely event he would need to draw it. The idea a chamber-empty, magazine- full gun is useless just not true. ... " I do not live in a ski resort town, but I live 'inside the wire' ... ... in a very safe community.

Last edited by GeoJelly; 04-14-2017 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:29 AM
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Yes, the G42 trigger pull was just too light - a heavier trigger pull would have made me more comfortable. I also ordered a Glock Block doohickey which fit very well - although I subsequently sold the Glock. The block device would've taken less than a second to pop out before firing...
Glock does offer what is called an NY+ trigger spring module that brings the trigger pull weight up to about 11 lbs which is pretty close to a J-frame's. I have them on all my Glocks. I don't think they yet offer them for the G42/G43, but the last time I spoke with a Glock rep, he thought they would be producing them in the near future.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:50 PM
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You do to be comfortable with what you carry - doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about a gun, if you aren't comfortable with it it needs to be replaced. You did the right thing.
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Old 04-14-2017, 05:53 PM
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I think this is a reasonable solution for you.

I do have a question though, why is the revolver better? There's still a round in the chamber so, what is your reasoning? Please understand, I'm not at odds with your decision. I'm just curious as to the reasoning.


Further, I have a hard time believing that a Glock will fire when dropped on the ground. It has two passive safeties in place specifically to prevent just that. If it did indeed fire when dropped, the gun was malfunctioning and had other issues. A properly maintained Glock or M&P for that matter, will not fire when dropped.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
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I think this is a reasonable solution for you.

I do have a question though, why is the revolver better? There's still a round in the chamber so, what is your reasoning? Please understand, I'm not at odds with your decision. I'm just curious as to the reasoning.


Further, I have a hard time believing that a Glock will fire when dropped on the ground. It has two passive safeties in place specifically to prevent just that. If it did indeed fire when dropped, the gun was malfunctioning and had other issues. A properly maintained Glock or M&P for that matter, will not fire when dropped.
Reasonable question sir - first of all I don't have any concerns about either a revo or a Glock discharging if dropped. That said, I would much rather drop a Glock given that it'll likely have less damage from the fall!

The M640 - or any other DAO S&W AFAIK, takes a full stroke of the trigger - almost all the way to the rear - to discharge. Sitting in a holster - the hammer is not partially cocked on the revolver. Contrast that with a Glock - and I intentionally did not badmouth Glock at the start of this thread - which has the striker partially, if only slightly, cocked. Sorta unrelated, but I started out in centerfires with an M28 in 1970. I have never had any sort of safety related incident with a revolver. I am totally and completely comfortable with them - but I still have a couple of Glocks because I can mount a light and laser (TLR-6) on my Glock 26.

In the heat of the moment, which I have never faced and hope to never face, I am (now) more comfortable with the required full trigger stroke on the S&W versus just a quick (and lighter) pull on a Glock. I also pointed out that - and this is difficult to quantify - I'm just not comfortable having a chambered Glock pointed at my anatomy when I get into and out of a vehicle, and while sitting in a vehicle.

As another fine poster has pointed out (regarding his brother), I also have the good fortune to live in a very low crime area, and there is no random thru-traffic on my/our streets from 2000 - 0500. Unrelated to the issue at hand, but all traffic that beeps thru the gate has video taken of both the front and back of the vehicle. So far ... Thank God ... no one has tried any kind of violent activity in the years since I have lived here. All of this said, I still want to have reasonably fast access to a handgun in the event that the shinola does strike the fan ...

Last edited by GeoJelly; 04-14-2017 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 04-14-2017, 07:28 PM
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I feel compelled to point out that the Glock has a firing pin stop. The "semi-cock" really doesn't matter. Even if you could somehow get the striker off of the trigger bar, it's simply going to hit the stop (presuming it has enough energy to set off the primer).

Trigger pull weight should be a non-issue in a confrontation. That is to say, you should not "accidentally" pull the trigger while pointing a weapon at a potential attacker, because your finger shouldn't be on the trigger until you intend to shoot. Really, anything in the 4-5# (or heavier, if you can shoot it well) range should be fine.

I know at least one..."seller of instructional services" (best I can do) advocates covering threats with your finger on the trigger, but literally everyone else in the industry agrees that, after testing the issue, there is no difference in reaction time between finger-on and finger-off.
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Old 04-14-2017, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
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I'm just not comfortable having a chambered Glock pointed at my anatomy when I get into and out of a vehicle, and while sitting in a vehicle.
I'm not comfortable having any gun pointed at any part of my anatomy at any time. This is why I carry where I do; the muzzle is never pointed at me.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:23 AM
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For the life of me I don't see the difference between carrying a Glock with one in the chamber or carrying an M640 with one in the next chamber. They are both just a trigger pull away from going bang.
If you don't feel safe carrying one of them, you shouldn't feel safe with the other.
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:56 PM
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You chose a fine firearm that YOU are comfortable carrying.
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Old 04-17-2017, 07:50 PM
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I carry both, including Glocks with one in the chamber but, I'm comfortable with it. The OP isn't, and there is a difference. 5 to 10 lbs. of trigger pull weight.
He got a good gun in the 640 and he'll be comfortable carrying it.
That's all that matters.
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:43 PM
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This has been an interesting thread. I admire Glocks a great deal. I own two and think my Glock 27 would be a 10 times better gun that my M649 if I had to survive a gun battle. The H.P. and Sheriffs Department around here carry Glocks and they do not seem to be dying from N.Ds. Quite the contrary. That said, I have the same attitude as the O.P. I usually appendix or pocket carry and will only carry a revolver or P series SIG with a hammer in that fashion. Maybe it is because I can put my thumb on the hammer when holstering. Maybe it is because I am an old fuddy duddy.

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Old 04-19-2017, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I have been subjected to some criticism here for my refusal to carry a Glock, or any other non-safety striker fired auto, with a round in the chamber. After the most recent incident - with a long thread here - about a store owner losing his life (with what may have been an empty-chamber auto), I decided to trade-in my Glock 42. There wasn't a thing wrong with it - I had zero malfs or any other problems when I fired it. A few days ago I saw a nice M640 in one of the local stores, and decided to get it. I came out pretty good - $375 for my G42 and the M640 was $525. I was concerned it was one of the police trade-ins, but it came with the correct box and was made in 2016. No major scratches but the cylinder had quite a turn ring dug into it - but that's easy to fix and it looks great, to me, now. So far, good news.

It passed all of my usual revolver checks - except one. Carry-up is strong and lock-up really is tight. The yolk ... ... does not flex out at all with moderate pressure on the side of the cylinder. I carried my usual unprimed case and checked B/C alignment with a flashlight - it's perfect as far as I can see. I noticed, though, that the B/C gap was very tight. Well, long story made short, the B/C gap is .002 - with another .002 almost .003 of end-shake. There isn't any evidence that the cylinder is rubbing on the forcing cone, but it's very, very close. Strictly a guess, I think the previous owner may have had the end-shake repaired, and whoever did that overdid the job. I'm going to fire it later this week, and I won't fire any lead in it. As long as the cylinder doesn't have any binding thru 15 or 20 rounds, I'm just going to leave it alone. I doubt that I would survive any altercation past 15 rounds anyway plus I only carry one reload! I know this isn't the gun-smithing section but any thoughts on the tight B/C gap would be greatly appreciated!

Edited to add: I have no reservations at all about carrying it with five rounds - the same round count as I carried in my G42. And, it came with the now-$50-on-eBay S&W logo banana grips but I put some nice Altamont's on it... These things are sooooo nice - the only sad thing is I had to wait until I was 60+ to get one ...
You actually haven't solved anything .. your still scared a striker fired pistol will go off with out it doing anything the same as if it was laying on a table somewhere ..

You've just covered over your fears like so many others ..
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Old 04-19-2017, 06:06 AM
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With notable exceptions - this thread continues to be great info for me! It's still oh-dark-thirty and I just returned from taking SWMBO to the commuter lot. My 442 is lighter than the 640 so it went along for the ride. I have zero confidence problems with the DAO Smith's. I'm sure the Glocks' have equal utility to the folks who are confident in them and with them. I do have a plug-thingy that fits all of the Glocks I have tried - and it wouldn't even take a half-second to push it out - but, there's also a pride-of-ownership factor and the Smith's give me a warm fuzzy in that regard!! I have survived almost a week now without the G42 so it looks like I'm going to make it! ... ...

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Old 04-19-2017, 11:00 AM
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Ok, I'll be the one to ask....What's a " plug thingy"?
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
Ok, I'll be the one to ask....What's a " plug thingy"?
It's a hunk of rubber that fits behind the trigger and prevents it from being pressed rearward . . .
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:49 PM
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When I read about NDs and ADs it is usually someone carrying a striker fired pistol. I wonder what the problem is. Are the guns unsafe or the people that carry striker fired guns unsafe? Maybe both? Just curious.
I have rifles and shotguns that are striker or internal hammer guns that are cocked when loaded and there is no way I would point one at anybody or any part of my body. There is not much way to carry a pistol without it pointed at some part of ones body. Larry
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:54 PM
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You can't go wrong with that wheel gun. However, technically (if you really think about it) if you are carrying a fully loaded revolver you ARE carrying with a "round in the chamber".
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Old 04-19-2017, 01:34 PM
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The OP is not alone in his leeriness of the stock Glock trigger. I know Massad Ayoob outfits all of his Glocks with NY trigger springs. The late Todd Green invented "The Gadget", so obviously he had some concerns about it and I don't think anyone would argue these two men need more training or education. I'm also pretty sure Ernest Langdon prefers guns with heavier trigger pulls.

This issue is similar to the topic of appendix carry. Those who are uncomfortable with it are often told they need more training, however I've seen numerous very experienced, high profile instructors(Marty Hayes immediately comes to mind Appendix Carry-Passing fad or fabulous method of carry?) who won't carry appendix or in any manner where the gun is pointed at any part of their anatomy. They are competent in their gun handing skills by nearly everyone's standards and the gun won't go off by itself, yet they are still not comfortable with it.

And it's not only about concerns with unintentional discharges in terms of everyday carry and handling, but also in the event that you actually have to draw your weapon in a defense scenario and heavier triggers have been shown to help prevent unintentional discharges in reality and in training Force Science News #3: Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges?. In an actual self-defense encounter, you might have to run with weapon in hand, be involved in some type of close-quarter struggle and a heavier trigger simply adds a measure of safety that the trigger won't be pulled and the gun fired until intentionally done so. To paraphrase Mas Ayoob...Light triggers are great shooting tools, but lousy threat management tools. Many don't consider the stock Glock trigger to be too light, but many do and neither point of view is factually correct, so this issue boils down to opinion and choosing what you are comfortable with and determine to be the best compromise for yourself.

I think the OP made a logical choice based on his personal thoughts and feelings.
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:42 PM
GeoJelly GeoJelly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
Ok, I'll be the one to ask....What's a " plug thingy"?
Unfortunately I have reached the age where so many devices and gadgets have names that are beyond my recollection!! I have two options for Glocks - one is the soft rubber plug which Muss Muggins was kind enough to decipher. The other is the Saf-T-Blok (hereafter called 'STB'). The STB is fairly well engineered and can be flicked out in less than a second. The plug takes longer to push out and doesn't block the trigger as effectively. I'm big on pitchers - I can post a photo of the plug (and more info) if someone is interested. The STB is fairly well known and run about $12 on Amazon...

I recognize that any comments about plugs and STB's is pouring salt into the wounds of those who think they are an abomination. Again, I want to point out that I have the very good fortune to have a working wife, and thus we are able to live in a safe area. But, I have to go out before sunrise (for now) on weekday mornings so either the 442, or 360J or 640 will be going along for the ride.

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Old 04-19-2017, 03:23 PM
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I, for one, support your choice to carry a revolver instead of a semi-auto w/an empty chamber. I was a working cop for 30 years and had to use my revolver more than once to defend myself or someone else. That said my comfort level still rests w/that platform even though I was required to carry a Glock 23 for my last several years on the job and shoot it quite well. If I were to return to the streets as a cop (not likely @ 70 yrs old) the Glock makes perfect sense, but as a retiree who flys below the radar the J frame still works for me.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:03 PM
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I agree the main choice is between what you feel safe with or not. I started out with semi autos probably because that is thought to be the best for CC SD. After seeing just about everyone of my semi autos fail and not liking what they use for a safety I have gone all in for revolvers for CC. Carrying one chambered in a revolver with a hammer block and a heavier trigger pull IMO is the safest gun to carry.

I feel each person has to go with what they can shoot effectively while being safe doing so. Train with whatever you choose to carry so that you feel you are ready for a bad situation and also in a safe manor.

All that matters is what works for you after much practice.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:28 PM
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I side with the OP. My truck gun, a Glock 17, has an empty chamber.
It's much easier to set off a Glock than a DA revolver, not only because of the lighter pull, but the length of pull as well.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen3guy View Post
You can't go wrong with that wheel gun. However, technically (if you really think about it) if you are carrying a fully loaded revolver you ARE carrying with a "round in the chamber".
But the revolver is not cocked. The striker fired gun is cocked. Larry
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