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  #101  
Old 05-21-2017, 11:58 PM
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Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers?  
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Originally Posted by ABPOS View Post
Interesting thought on the grains..... I don't even know what's out there under 100 grains. I think Hornady makes a 90 grain critical defense light, but that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head......

But my 442 would work for pocket carry as you are saying. I would just switch out my grips to boot grips. I've got my eye out for some kind of trade (thinking about trading my G26) to make for a steel snubby of some sort. I really like the bodyguards. Or a 640... I like the 36/60 but sometimes practicing with my DS the hammer spur will catch on my clothes if I'm not careful enough to lift them up as much as needed. Of course you can get the spur bobbed though.
Sorry, should have rechecked Farnam's book. He recommends between 100 to 110 grains for small 38 special revolvers.

Was just reading Greg Ellfritz' blog and he recommends about four but the two I noted were:

Corbon DPX 110 grain copper hollow point

148 grain full wadcutter target round

Dave Spaulding carries corbon because it penetrates expands and has less recoil.

However if you're a pessimist and worry about humidity affecting powder burn, velocity, expansion, the full wadcutter might be the way to go.

Is there a readily available target semi wadcutter for reloads I wonder?

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Old 05-22-2017, 01:14 AM
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Also there is the Hornady 110 grain which I'm currently carrying in my 638 but expansion is inconsistent.

The LCP2 and RM380 are nice pocket pistols but as Farnam points out past a certain size a smaller handgun becomes less reliable. I did shoot an LCP 2 at a factory shoot and was really pleasantly surprised at how accurate it was out about 45-50 feet but I still had a couple of fyers. I think the other part of the problem is that we should have I frame revolvers again in airweight or air Lite weights but chambered for 32 ACP Browning's favorite cartridge.

As it is I'm looking at a 43c in 22LR for a trainer and may well just carry that in hot weather due to its lightweight and my ability to probably keep a tight group with that after practice. Plus there would be fewer worries about reliability as it is a revolver. In Rex Applegate's _Kill or be Killed_ he details about six off-duty police handguns and most of them are chambered in 22, 25 or 32 ACP iirc. I would be carrying a steel j frame iwb in 38 special in addition.

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  #103  
Old 05-22-2017, 09:06 AM
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Further food for thought regarding effective rounds out of a 2" J frame from Dr. Gary Roberts who is considered the leading researcher and authority in this arena:

Quote:
.38 (Back Up Gun / J-Frame)

Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.
Personally, I carry the Winchester Ranger 130gr +P (RA38B).

I have also carried the Hornady Critical Defense 110gr (standard pressure).

The reason I carry the Ranger currently is because of the superior expansion as compared to the Critical Defense but I'd feel confident with either round...and if one is sensitive to the recoil of the Airweight, (I'm not), then the Hornady round may prove superior for your purposes.

I hope this info will be found useful for those of you trying to narrow down your carry ammo choices.

(I generally use American Eagle 130gr FMJ (AE38K) for training purposes.)
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  #104  
Old 05-22-2017, 12:02 PM
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It's hard to go wrong with Dr. Roberts' recommendations.

I carry Speer 135gr GDHP +P. Most of my live fire practice is with PMC 132gr FMJ, with occasional use of Speer Lawman 158gr TMJ +P.

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Old 05-22-2017, 01:43 PM
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Great discussion on loads to carry. I've been carrying Hornady's 125 grain XTP "American Gunner" load because it penetrates well. Doesn't do too much for expansion though. From what I can tell.

I've seen tests with critical defense that seems to make it a marginal penetrator. So I'm kind of iffy on carrying that one.

I think I'm going to buy some wadcutters to load in the gun and have something else as a reload. The Winchester train and defend rounds seem to be an OK load. I should be linking where I'm getting all my info. I know this websited called "Lucky Gunner" did some extensive .38 / .357 gel testing.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revo...llistics-test/

Anyways... Good info guys. I might try some of the 110 grain stuff, but here again, it seems like the tests I've seen always make it sort of "marginal" with penetration (Federal has a load too, but I think it's only low recoil). I didn't know Roberts was OK with Critical Defense. I think Fackler only promotes the Gold Dot 135 +p short barrel and Cor Bon 110 +p as the only good performers. At least I thought that was the case. But I don't do well with +p's in the 442. Start flinching after a few rounds. Ouch.

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  #106  
Old 05-22-2017, 01:55 PM
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ABPOS, I have a lot of respect for the amount of time, expense and effort that went into the Lucky Gunner tests but just keep in mind that the gel used is not the same ballistic gelatin used as a standard by Dr. Roberts nor the FBI protocols.

That said, it is useful for comparing results against one another in the test but not necessarily for determining the efficacy of the ammunition per the aforementioned protocols.

I think the tests run by "Shooting The Bull" on youtube come closest to meeting those standards and this opinion has been shared by others with expertise in this field of research.
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:00 PM
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I've actually been crazy enough to carry the Buffalo Bore 150 grain hard cast wadcutters in my 638. I have them loaded in my 36-1. The thing I like about them is you don't get too much penetration I think it's maximum 17 inches but they're sharp shouldered and they should also defeat barriers. They also have what I think of as a 357 affect where they're loaded hot enough and they shoot straight enough that they're probably more accurate than I am.

My philosophy up till now has been that I'll probably be point shooting in an ambush self-defense type of situation but taking the course with Farnam has opened up my eyes to the possibility that I may be shooting at greater than 12 feet. In which case ideally I'd be going with the corbon 110 grain. However as Roy Jincks emphasized these snubbies have been regulated to 158 grain so I might even experiment with them and possibly carry that also at least for a farther shot.

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  #108  
Old 05-22-2017, 02:10 PM
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My philosophy up till now has been that I'll probably be point shooting in an ambush self-defense type of situation but taking the course with Farnam has opened up my eyes to the possibility that I may be shooting at greater than 12 feet.
I also operate under the "assumption" that a defensive shooting where I would deploy a J frame from pocket or AIWB is going to be a close range affair, both violent and short lived. It is certainly not something I'll look forward to and I'll happily live out my remaining days in more fruitful fashion.

While I used to qualify with J frames out to 25 yards for duty carry, it would be hard to label a 25 yard encounter as self defense in most instances.

Generally, I train with my J frame at 10 yards or closer as this is the type of range I can imagine encountering in a home or commercial environment. Anything further / less exigent and I'm going to be looking for an alternative.
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:29 PM
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I should emphasize for what it's worth about the 110 corbon DPX that Dave Spaulding highly recommends it after extensive testing and examining recovered bullets from autopsies. He carries it himself.

The thing about corbon is that the bullet is copper which apparently penetrates very well but also expands very well. I guess it's a natural high-tech bullet in a sense. The point he made about the corbon in particular was that you could shoot a lighter bullet going at a slower rate of speed and still achieve good penetration and good expansion with less recoil and faster follow-up shots. That seems pretty convincing to me. Maybe I'm missing something but.....

In regards to distances and engagements Farnam had us shooting for our test at 25 feet with reactive targets. I think we did move out to perhaps 50 feet at one point. I can't remember the POA POI for 158 grain for what distance. 30 feet? 75 feet?

There are unusual situations I can think of where a longer shot might be called for. For example I was at a rally for Jill Stein for President and if some nut burger tried to pick off Grandma Pickles I might have tried to take him out unless the federal cop doing security with me was armed or a better shot which might have been the case.

I had a small ephiphany last night when I realized that the Ruger LCR probably comes in at about 11 or 12 ounces with boot grips. That loaded with the corbon 110 DPX probably would be perfect. It's an ugly postmodern gun but I'm sorry Smith & Wesson it is lighter and if I'm wearing light clothing it's probably going to conceal better and not make the soccer moms cry and run to the authorities.

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Old 05-22-2017, 04:22 PM
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You keep referring to the Corbon 110, but the only one I know of is a plus P load... Do they have a standard pressure load I don't know about? I have some of the plus p's..... I've yet to shoot them to see how bad. But I was like no bueno with the Gold Dot plus p's. Naaa aaa. Too much for me to handle in an airweight. Even with my hogue tamers on it.
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:48 PM
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I can't remember the POA POI for 158 grain for what distance. 30 feet? 75 feet?
According to the S&W CS rep I e-mailed, the current fixed-sight J-frame guns are regulated for 158gr loads at 7 yards.
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:51 PM
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You keep referring to the Corbon 110, but the only one I know of is a plus P load... Do they have a standard pressure load I don't know about? I have some of the plus p's..... I've yet to shoot them to see how bad. But I was like no bueno with the Gold Dot plus p's. Naaa aaa. Too much for me to handle in an airweight. Even with my hogue tamers on it.
Ah you're right, my mistake. Just read part of a thread that says it does recoil more as a +p. Still as a 110 grain bullet maybe less than the 130 etc +ps?

Spaulding did say that corbons are at a lower speed and the thread mentioned that they don't get up to advertised velocity.

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Old 05-22-2017, 04:56 PM
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Oh never mind. Apparently the Speer is easier on the hand. In which case I'm with you, 148 grain wadcutters are probably the way to go.

I'll have to compare them with my buffalo bore wadcutters. heh.

.38 spl +p: Corbon DPX or Speer Gold Dot? | The Leading Glock Forum and Community - GlockTalk.com

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Old 05-22-2017, 05:18 PM
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I was just on MidwayUSA.com and I saw buffalo bore has a 125 grain HP standard pressure load too. And then Federal has some new HST loading that is loaded like a target wadcutter. So probably not good for reloads, but it's standard pressure and might be good for the first cylinder...... It's the first time I've seen anything about it...

Federal Premium Personal Defense Micro Ammo 38 Special 129 Grain HST
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:44 PM
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I'm just going to add this final quote from Dr. Roberts regarding carry ammunition (once you have chosen a round which passes the qualifications and protocols such as I posted earlier):

Quote:
As always, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend your time and money on developing a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training.
I think those words are worth heeding otherwise you may well be spinning your wheels in search of the "magic bullet" fruitlessly.
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:24 PM
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I was just on MidwayUSA.com and I saw buffalo bore has a 125 grain HP standard pressure load too.
You have to be careful with Buffalo Bore ammo. I think it's good quality ammo, but in my limited experience their standard pressure ammo kicks like +P, and their +P kicks like a...well, they kick hard.

If you're comparing loads for recoil, compare their bullet weights and velocities, especially with BB ammo. Ammo with the same bullet weight and velocity should kick about the same, even if one is +P and the other is standard pressure.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:26 PM
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Yeah, I never get how they can be standard pressure but have plus P like velocities......
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Old 05-23-2017, 04:20 PM
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From what I've read Buffalo Bore mixes proprietary powders to achieve a higher consistent velocity without pressure spikes.

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Old 05-23-2017, 04:57 PM
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Yeah, I never get how they can be standard pressure but have plus P like velocities......
Use the right powders, and it is possible. Though load data may not be available for their loads. I use Longshot for a lot of my loads, and get impressive velocity. Cases fall out of the cylinder even on ones that should be hot. There are many powders just have to find the right one, BB has. They also load to SAAMI pressures, not under them like most manufacturers.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:39 AM
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to the question posed about winter/heavy coat carry-

I carry 2 when I have a heavy jacket on. One on my hip and the 442 in my right coat pocket, never gloves, hand in the pocket.

If my jacket is zipped, obviously the hip gun is essentially inaccessible. The 442 is the primary and the hip gun is the backup.

I will never zip my jacket if I only have the one on my hip. I might as well be disarmed.

If I need to remove my jacket and put the 442 elsewhere, I'll go to the bathroom (or wherever) an shove it in my boot or my front pocket.
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Old 05-25-2017, 11:36 AM
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I bought a Shockwave tiny shotgun. I no longer feel the need to carry a second anything. With a 3" OOOB or a slug as a lead off, we're good with whatever you want as a sidearm.
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Old 05-25-2017, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
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to the question posed about winter/heavy coat carry-

I carry 2 when I have a heavy jacket on. One on my hip and the 442 in my right coat pocket, never gloves, hand in the pocket.

If my jacket is zipped, obviously the hip gun is essentially inaccessible. The 442 is the primary and the hip gun is the backup.

I will never zip my jacket if I only have the one on my hip. I might as well be disarmed.

If I need to remove my jacket and put the 442 elsewhere, I'll go to the bathroom (or wherever) an shove it in my boot or my front pocket.

Thanks for explaining. That makes a lot of sense to do it that way.
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Old 05-26-2017, 01:11 PM
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My first purchase of a handgun was a .45acp,Remington R-1 enhanced. It's a great shooter but heavy as hell to lug around all day and pretty much impossible to conceal in warm weather. I thought about getting a snubby but then I fought with myself as to whether it's enough gun. I picked up a Sig 320 carry the other day and was amazed at how light it felt and how nice the trigger was for a striker fire. the gun's a little bulky but with a couple mags I gotta believe it would offer all the firepower I need with a folding knife for B/U. I'm on the heavier side so I'm not sure how I'd carry it, but the gun fit my hand very nicely.
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Old 06-03-2017, 07:48 AM
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Default Always carry a spare ...

In my skydiving days I always carried a reserve parachute. In 2000+ jumps I only had 9 emergency chute rides but I was glad to have a spare on those occasions.

My primary weapon is a revolver AISW for fast access and comfortable carry. Even a revolver can fail, my brand new 640 Pro locked up tight after the first round fired. A tiny burr of metal got into the works and rendered the gun inoperable.

Taking off the side plate and blowing it out restored functionality but hardly what you would be able to do in a gunfight. Not everybody can do a revolver reload as fast as Jerry Miculek, and I wouldn't want to try it under stress.

For me a NY reload is the best option for staying in the fight. Here is my often posted picture of my carry when "going light":


360PD AirLite and 3914 DAO

Optionally with back-up carried OWB:


Drawing with the weak (left) hand is awkward in this configuration.

Having just acquired a 547 has given me the option of "going heavy" with an 18 round 915 taking the place of the 3914 DAO:


The 915 goes behind the back for concealability.

I went "heavy" all day yesterday with just an untucked open shirt to cover both weapons and it worked well but concealing two larger guns in lightweight clothing demands more attention to what you are doing.

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Old 06-03-2017, 11:07 AM
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Can you be my Bodyguard? LOL. Nice set up. I do like the idea of a BUG but have never done it.

Last time I went to the range I tried every grip I had on my 442. I definitely preferred the rubber boot grips that come on the gun. They slipped less than the wooden ones. I didn't buy those. They came with the gun. I really would like to get a 2nd j frame for the times I want more. I'm also toying with a .380, but not sure which one. Bodyguard or Ruger I guess is my two tops. A G42 would work too I guess. There area couple of others I'm thinking about. I've been staying away from guns with a safety for a defense gun. It makes it simpler. I think we can train for it, but I do think I might forget under stress.

I watched a bunch of vids yesterday on youtube about .380 gel testing and there might be a few good loads.

How about one of them Colt Hammerless models. I always loved that gun. I guess a G43 or shield wouldn't be a bad idea. The shields are so cheap right not. All I know is I really don't want to give up the Revolver AIWB. It is just really right there. I could add another a couple different places though.
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Old 06-05-2017, 12:53 PM
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Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers?  
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Even in a card game two duces beat an eight and a nine. For self defense I would make a decision and stick with it. And if I carried two they would be kissing cousins if not identical twins. Fewer variables.

Another reason to carry twins, not mentioned before, is you can hand a trusted somebody one and still have one. Let's say you and your 16y/o son are in a canoe and start hearing 'dueling banjoes', he's trained but is five years from qualifying for a CCW (although just two years from being draftable!), if you hand him a loaded snubbie (even a 317) you are both better off than if you handed him a loaded glock 33 round magazine.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:25 PM
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Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers?  
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Originally Posted by digiroc View Post
In my skydiving days I always carried a reserve parachute. In 2000+ jumps I only had 9 emergency chute rides...
Gee, thats better than 99.54 percent effective. Why bother with the back up?;-)
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:10 PM
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Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers?  
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Default Half a percent is a big risk when your life is on the line ...

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Gee, thats better than 99.54 percent effective. Why bother with the back up?;-)
I figure my defensive handguns are 99% trouble free. It's just that no one knows when that small risk becomes large.

My brand new 640 Pro Series totally locked-up after the first round ever fired. A tiny metal burr got in the works and rendered the gun inoperable.

I was just lucky it happened out of the box, it could have floated around in there for hundreds of rounds before it locked it up.

I had dry fired the weapon dozens of times at the dealer's and probably another dozen times before I took it out back to try live fire.

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Old 06-06-2017, 06:56 PM
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Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers?  
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Originally Posted by digiroc View Post
I figure my defensive handguns are 99% trouble free. It's just that no one knows when that small risk becomes large.

My brand new 640 Pro Series totally locked-up after the first round ever fired. A tiny metal burr got in the works and rendered the gun inoperable.

I was just lucky it happened out of the box, it could have floated around in there for hundreds of rounds before it locked it up.

I had dry fired the weapon dozens of times at the dealer's and probably another dozen times before I took it out back to try live fire.

digiroc
I wish I knew where to find it. Years ago someone figured out what the practical consequences of 99.99 percent meant. If only 0.01 percent of Air traffic controllers, doctors, nuclear plant operators, parachute riggers, pharamacists forgot thier training. If auto brakes, bullet proof vests, seat belts, saftey harnesses failed 0.01 percent of the time. Well as a parachutist you can imagine....
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:14 PM
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Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers?  
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Originally Posted by haywood View Post
I always have a 442 in my off hand pocket. Another J-Frame an SP101 or a Taurus 617 is AIWB. Normally it's Two J-Frames. I also carry a couple Speed Loaders.
I adhere to this philosophy also, and always carry two revolvers and reloads.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:05 AM
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Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers?  
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I see no reason to not carry as many as YOU feel comfortable with. We are living in strange and violent times and life has changed, sadly. When I hear folks state derogatory comments about how many and reloads, and I live in a safe area and what are you preparing for? Well,.. I go about my business as the " Grey Man ", so to speak. I seek no issues and hope that none finds me. I just want to defend myself and my Bride should unpleasantness arise. No judgements on anyone else you see. Just do not judge me please.
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Old 06-07-2017, 09:20 AM
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Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers? Can we discuss NY reload and carrying 2 revolvers?  
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I see no reason to not carry as many as YOU feel comfortable with. We are living in strange and violent times and life has changed, sadly. When I hear folks state derogatory comments about how many and reloads, and I live in a safe area and what are you preparing for? Well,... I go about my business as the " Grey Man ", so to speak. I seek no issues and hope that none finds me. I just want to defend myself and my Bride should unpleasantness arise. No judgments on anyone else you see. Just do not judge me, please.
To which I give a HEARTY AMEN!!!!!
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