Shooting while moving training.

Walkingwolf · #51 05-24-2017, 03:37 PM

Combat, and tactical skills takes much more than taking a class once a year. It takes hours, upon hours of hands on training. And then that training has to good training to start with. If a trainer does stupid things to make a point, then his training is flawed.

Most of us have the training built in to NOT get into those situations in the first place. If you don't you can work on them daily without very much effort. It is like driving a semi tractor trailer, if you are not looking ahead you are going to get caught with your pants down. Outside of working as police officer I have had little violent contact.

Mostly because I avoid violent contact, it is not that hard. Ask yourself, where am I most likely to get attacked, then don't be there. Places you can't avoid like say a shopping center parking lot, do not let people get that close to start with. If someone starts an argument, don't argue back. Keep your distance from people that make your hair stand up. I can go on, and on, but then I would have to charge you a ridicules fee for tactical situational awareness training.

richardw · #52 05-24-2017, 03:54 PM

[quote=Ziggy2525;139603501]I've never been in a gunfight or a knife fight. Never had to draw my pistol in self defense. Since you've mentioned you have been in multiples, maybe you could help me learn from your experience. Here are some areas I'd like to learn more about based on your post. Not trying to put you on the spot, just learn from your experience.

Shooting Stance: I try to take a tactical shooting class at least once a year. I've never had an instructor recommend Isosceles for anything but competition. Pretty much everyone recommends a boxing/wrestling stance. When shooting using both hands, your arms are Isosceles'ish with the pistol aligned with your dominate eye. I've heard that referred to as a "natural stance." What do you see as the weakness in that approach.

Isoscleles was designed by a world class target shooter. Why people see it a a good gunfighting stance I will never get. It puts up a big target with all your vital organs facing the shooter. The Weaver stance presents your side which is being covered by a lot of your non dominant arm. The C.A.R system uses a modified Weaver.

Moving Perpendicular to Knife Attacker: You say moving perpendicular to a knife attacker, away from the knife is a sure way to get stabbed. Help me understand that. From a geometry/trigonometry standpoint, moving perpendicular away from the knife creates the most distance the fastest. Most people can move laterally faster than they can move backwards and are less likely to trip. I'm a little confused on your approach. Could you elaborate?

What most people forget is that an attacker can close distance very very fast. A man can rush five feet forward in a second. Backing up places you off balance. If you are rushed you are going down. Lateral movement takes all you hand defensive tools and aims them in the wrong direction. Remember a knife attack is fast. You only get a few seconds to defend yourself.

In a post above this one I described how I was taught to defend against a knife attack in response to a query on that topic. It will make it clear that you face your opponent for a good reason.

CAR vs Retention Shooting: I did look up CAR. I could see how it would be very useful shooting seated from an automobile, but I'm struggling to understand how bringing the pistol up to your face and acquiring the sights would be faster than shooting from retention when when your attacker is very close. Can you provide some additional details on how that works.

Shooting from retention is a reasonable way to do it, but the advantage to C.AR. Is two fold. First, from retention your gun is aimed low. You are likely to hit the stomach are or groin. That is not a reliable area for incapacitating. Second, you gun is in one hand and easy to grab as it is extended. If you want to bet you can shoot faster that the bad guy can grab, it's your choice.

C.A.R. In a close in encounter has your side to the the bad guy not your front as from retention. And your arm is covering as in Weaver. Holding the gun close to the chest makes it harder to grab and provides stability to the gun. Most importantly, it places the muzzle of your gun at chest height. If you if you are about the same height as the attacker you are going to him in the same area your gun is being held. You take a shot then angle up slightly and shoot again, even a third time if he is real tall. Those are all center mass shots and likely incapacitating. With a little practice you can come to the firing position as fast as drawing from retention.

Knife Disarms: I've taken a few courses where people advocate controlling the wrist. Grabbing the wrist is a fine motor skill. I've never seen it work when the people went all out. The defender always "died." Maybe someone that did a lot of Jujitsu. Can you talk a little more about your technique.

Not trying to put you on the spot. Just trying to learn from someone that's BTDT.

Walkingwolf · #53 05-24-2017, 04:10 PM

Barrier defense against dog attacks, could also be used to defend against knife attacks. Get to that barrier, use it, use the time to draw your weapon. It is all part of every day situational awareness.

I used a bicycle I was riding to stop a dog attack using the bicycle as a barrier. I did not get a chance to draw because a passing motorist attempted to hit the dog forcing him to run away. Without that barrier I would have been mauled before I could shoot.

This is also a police crowd control tactic to use barriers to control crowds. Be creative, use whatever tools are handy, or obstacles. In a parking lot, use a car, a shopping cart. Walking down a road or sidewalk use a tree. Again I could list more, but none of you have paid me my high tactical barrier training fee.

Notice in both videos that obstacles/barriers are available during the simulated attack. Yet both these trainers advise running, and shooting as to the standard of using cover, or obstacle self defense. Of course there likely is not target standing to use in real life, but there are trees, benches, signs, cars. In the one video there are clearly cars, what trainer does not teach to use the most logical defense?

Nowhere to run, barrier/counter, improvised weapon. There are hundreds of these REAL life training videos. This clerk was probably only paid minimum wage to bring you this training though.

Mister X · #54 05-24-2017, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

He speaks the truth, I have been attacked on duty a few times by a knife holder. Stabbed twice, cut once on the thigh. As bad as that sounds I was good as new with a couple stitches. NONE of those times did I attempt to draw let alone shoot. In fact I assaulted the person with the knife, and did exactly what he explained. Taking a stab, or cut to a non vital area of the body is preferable to getting your throat cut while trying to get, or hold a gun.

If you bring a gun to a close knife fight you will lose. First since we are law abiding citizens the attacker is already armed at ready. We cannot use force until we are threatened. The time you waste getting your gun is possibly going to be your last time above ground. If you can run, RUN, if not disarm your attacker, even if you get cut on the hand, or arm. A stab is not going to put you out of commission. And slicing is difficult in hand, to hand.

Situational awareness will keep you alive far longer than tactikewl training. Seems these guys have to invent new ways to make money.

I never said anything about drawing and shooting. The focus of my post you're quoting is unarmed defense against a blade and his statements "it is relatively ease to take the knife away" and "the secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist".

How is he right in your incident? You got cut. I don't call that easy.

Unless you are disarming a toddler or an elderly person, an unarmed knife disarm is an extremely difficult and dangerous scenario and to call it easy is nonsense. It is possible to successfully disarm someone and not get cut, but against a young, strong street savvy man intent on doing you harm, it is usually only pulled off by someone with a lot of training, a high level of skill and possessing a lot of natural athleticism. A lot of success vs failure boils down to the individuals involved.

Most of what is taught in martial art schools and combatives classes including the military will not likely be effective against the most common street attacks with blades. The assailant is much more likely to use a quick pumping action much like a prison shanking rather than the exaggerated thrusts and controlled slashes that most programs teach.

fdw · #55 05-24-2017, 04:29 PM

I try and take one or two defensive courses a year and have done some shooting while moving. While I have no idea as to if it would actually help in a real life situation I do believe it raises my confidence level, as the other drills we practice do, retention, firing while sitting, low light, etc.

Mister X · #56 05-24-2017, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardw

Let me start by saying that there are already good books and videos about hand to hand defense. Look for Krav Maga an Israeli system it MARMAP, Marine Martial Arts Program. I think there are even YouTube videos on both, and there might be phone/tablet app for them too.

Here is what I learned, when and where.

Defending against a knife attack

In 1960 in Marine Corps Infantry Training Regiment (ITR) now called called School of infantry. It was an 8 week course that you did after 12 weeks of boot camp. In boot camp we learned the fundamentals of hand to hand combat. In ITR It was not uncommon to practice those skills ten to twelve hours a week so at minimum you had 80 hours of training and practice. Part of that training was fending off a knife attack. When you were assigned to an infantry battalion that practice continued several days a week for several hours. You learned by rote.

Here is what we were taught. For the purposes of this description I am assuming a right hand attack from the front. If the attack comes from the side you have to pivot to face it. If the attack comes from the rear, say your prayers. Of course the fundamental rule is never let an attacker get behind you.

Keep in mind that these five steps have to be done in rapid succession.

Step one: face attacker head on with feet shoulder width apart. The stance is important. Keep you eyes shifting between the knife and attacker's eyes. Frequently the eyes will telegraph where the knife will be aimed.

Step two: using the left arm block the attacker's arm by placing your arm against his near the wrist. You should use that part of the upper side of your arm a bit below the wrist. That way you can keep maneuvering your arm along his as he tries to pull away or otherwise maneuver. Never grab the wrist at this point of an encounter. If you miss you could end up dead. The idea is to keep the knife away from you not to take it until later.

Step three: this is critical to get right. Staying in stance mentioned in step one, as you block with your left arm with you right arm make a strong fisted jab at the attacker' nose. You are not going for a knockout punch. You want to keep him off balance. Follow that with a heel of the palm of your hand upward under his chin. Use all the strength you can muster. That violently snaps the head back and causes a serious jolt to the brain stem/ spine junction. Done hard enough it can knock a person unconscious or kill him.

Step four: as soon as you have delivered the palm thrust, pivot on your left foot placing your right foot directly under his arm. This puts you at an angle to the attacker. While blocking his arm with your arm smash your right elbow into his face.

Step five: bring your right arm at your elbow over the attacker's arm at his elbow. Pull up on his elbow and push down on his wrist until you hear a crack. That is his elbow being dislocated. His arm is now practically useless to him. If he does not drop the knife grip his hand with your two hands and twist the wrist so the palm is going upward facing the sky. Continue to twist the wrist until he drops the knife of you break his wrist. At which point if he fails to drop the knife just take it from him. It's safe to do that because you have really destroyed his ability to use the knife.

All five steps should take no more than three to four seconds. That takes a lot of practice, but it is quite possible to master. If the knife attack is from the left side then you have to do the same thing to that side.

So in summary it is block, punch, thrust, lock arm, break wrist, disarm. I can assure you it works. I had to do it once in Nam, and I was really glad I did not have to go through that twice.

Forgot one thing. Never rush the attacker make him come at you. People in motion has less balance than those who are stationery.

Do you have a link of someone demonstrating this?

Walkingwolf · #57 05-24-2017, 04:39 PM

Here is person who survives using tools available, that includes people, running, finding a safe place. He was hurt, but survived, even though the attacker appeared more healthy.

Walkingwolf · #58 05-24-2017, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

I never said anything about drawing and shooting. The focus of my post you're quoting is unarmed defense against a blade and his statements "it is relatively ease to take the knife away" and "the secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist".

How is he right in your incident? You got cut. I don't call that easy.

Unless you are disarming a toddler or an elderly person, an unarmed knife disarm is an extremely difficult and dangerous scenario and to call it easy is nonsense. It is possible to successfully disarm someone and not get cut, but against a young, strong street savvy man intent on doing you harm, it is usually only pulled off by someone with a lot of training, a high level of skill and possessing a lot of natural athleticism. A lot of success vs failure boils down to the individuals involved.

Most of what is taught in martial art schools and combatives classes including the military will not likely be effective against the most common street attacks with blades. The assailant is much more likely to use a quick pumping action much like a prison shanking rather than the exaggerated thrusts and controlled slashes that most programs teach.

If you get in a knife fight you are probably going to get cut. The primary goal is surviving, but may be lucky in not getting cut. Get attacked by a dog, you probably are going to suffer a bite wound. Some training is just outright poor training no matter how much you pay for it.

People survive attacks with virtually no training just using instincts. The only people I have seen shot in that shooting style shown in the video is innocent bystanders.

Even if you manage to get a hit while moving, and shooting that style it will most likely NOT stop the attack. An attacker can still attack for several seconds even when the heart is completely destroyed. It will take a head shot, pelvis shot, or spine shot. Chances are extremely low for a hit, let alone a CNS hit. IMO the training is in how to spend your money with the least results.

Walkingwolf · #59 05-24-2017, 05:00 PM

Let me ask. When you(general) go to the grocery store to pick up one item, do you get a cart? And if you do get a cart do you grab one in the parking lot, or wait till your inside?

Ziggy2525 · #60 05-24-2017, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

Regarding incorporating movement while using a handgun to defend against a knife(or any contact weapon)...

Thoughts?

GunFu: Rob Pincus, Combat Focus Shooting, "Shooting on the Move" - YouTube

Two comments. Not as any kind of expert gunfighter, but based on the simunitions FoF training I mentioned earlier.

1) When an athletic attacker was rushing us as fast as they could, the people in my course couldn't move backwards fast enough to make Rob Pincus' style work (in the class I took - 80% were active police officers or active duty military). With Pincus' approach, most of the people in the class also ended up spraying their shots and not hitting the attacker. It would be easy to try at full speed with Airsoft or paintball and see what kind of results you get.

2) In the times when Rob Pincus moved laterally, he moved in the direction of the knife and into the line of the attack. If he would have moved the other direction, away from the knife, he would have forced the attacker to shift the line of attack and given himself some space. With the targets acting as a wall, he didn't have a lot of space, but he had some.

Mister X · #61 05-24-2017, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

The only people I have seen shot in that shooting style shown in the video is innocent bystanders.

Even if you manage to get a hit while moving, and shooting that style it will most likely NOT stop the attack. An attacker can still attack for several seconds even when the heart is completely destroyed. It will take a head shot, pelvis shot, or spine shot. Chances are extremely low for a hit, let alone a CNS hit. IMO the training is in how to spend your money with the least results.

So, Pincus and Suarez are incompetent trainers according to you?

What is your general plan against a blade at 5 yards or less?

I think I probably stress the need for ECQ and unarmed skills more than anyone else on here, but I would much rather go hands on against a knifer that has a few bullet holes in him rather than engage unarmed from the get-go, although that too is a likely possibility if we're talking extreme close-quarters.

Walkingwolf · #62 05-24-2017, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

So, Pincus and Suarez are incompetent trainers according to you?

What is your general plan against a blade at 5 yards or less?

I think I probably stress the need for ECQ and unarmed skills more than anyone else on here, but I would much rather go hands on against a knifer that has a few bullet holes in him rather than engage unarmed from the get-go, although that too is a likely possibility if we're talking extreme close-quarters.

You can use that if you want, they are trying to make a buck anyway they can. At my age I know of hundreds of real life encounters by people with knives. And they all handled them better than his advice. I stick to what is well known to work, not sudo tactical suicide training.

My older brother at age 18 worked for a small grocery store. He had a friend who got mad over a girl, and came in the store with a knife. No tactikewl training, just a empty glass two liter bottle ended the threat. The knife holder did take a trip to the hospital though with a concussion.

Almost forgot about this one. A family friend a veteran police officer almost got into trouble because of domestic abuse call. They kept arguing no matter how much he tried to deescalate, eventually the boyfriend grabbed a knife. The officer clocked him with the Motorola portable, those things were big back then. Attack stopped, but boyfriend went to hospital with a severe concussion. Officer got accused of using too much force, but he was still alive. There was no place to run, and shoot in the small kitchen of the house.

You better have more than one tactic if you plan on getting in a knife fight.

I ask again about the cart, do you get one, and when, even if picking up one item? If you are buying several cans of vegetables do they go in the bottom of the cart, or do you put a few in the top basket? I ask this is because these are some of the items that have been used for self defense. How seriously do you take your situational awareness. Or do you just watch tactikewl videos, and a couple times a year go to tactikewl training courses?

Smart choices, and situational awareness go a lot farther than voodoo training. Situational awareness is an everyday thing, every single waking minute. The best survived attack is the one that never takes place.

blues7 · #63 05-24-2017, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

So, Pincus and Suarez are incompetent trainers according to you?

They wouldn't be my first choice were I in the market but I'll defer to others with more recent (privately offered) training than my own which was obtained on the job as an agent and while on our SRT team via SWAT schools and cross training with other domestic and foreign LE and military teams.

Ziggy2525 · #64 05-24-2017, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues7

They wouldn't be my first choice were I in the market but I'll defer to others with more recent (privately offered) training than my own which was obtained on the job as an agent and while on our SRT team via SWAT schools and cross training with other domestic and foreign LE and military teams.

Good learning opportunity. With your background, what approach would you suggest for a civilian CCW encounter with a knife wielding attacker at 3 to 5 yards.

Mister X · #65 05-24-2017, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

You can use that if you want, they are trying to make a buck anyway they can. At my age I know of hundreds of real life encounters by people with knives. And they all handled them better than his advice. I stick to what is well known to work, not sudo tactical suicide training.

My older brother at age 18 worked for a small grocery store. He had a friend who got mad over a girl, and came in the store with a knife. No tactikewl training, just a empty glass two liter bottle ended the threat. The knife holder did take a trip to the hospital though with a concussion.

Almost forgot about this one. A family friend a veteran police officer almost got into trouble because of domestic abuse call. They kept arguing no matter how much he tried to deescalate, eventually the boyfriend grabbed a knife. The officer clocked him with the Motorola portable, those things were big back then. Attack stopped, but boyfriend went to hospital with a severe concussion. Officer got accused of using too much force, but he was still alive. There was no place to run, and shoot in the small kitchen of the house.

You better have more than one tactic if you plan on getting in a knife fight.

I ask again about the cart, do you get one, and when, even if picking up one item? If you are buying several cans of vegetables do they go in the bottom of the cart, or do you put a few in the top basket? I ask this is because these are some of the items that have been used for self defense. How seriously do you take your situational awareness. Or do you just watch tactikewl videos, and a couple times a year go to tactikewl training courses?

Smart choices, and situational awareness go a lot farther than voodoo training. Situational awareness is an everyday thing, every single waking minute. The best survived attack is the one that never takes place.

You didn't answer my question

Walkingwolf · #66 05-24-2017, 05:39 PM

You didn't answer mine, let me ask you another one. Do you plan on getting in a knife fight? Or would you avoid one first?

Here is the percentage from 2015 of being a victim of homicide, that is all weapons, .00488%. Now with such low odds one has to wonder what would increase those odds, or lower them. IMO that would actually be tactics that keeps one from danger in the first place. IOW using good common sense at staying safe, rather than pie in the sky tactics after not using the common sense in the first place.

Mister X · #67 05-24-2017, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

You didn't answer mine, let me ask you another one. Do you plan on getting in a knife fight? Or would you avoid one first?

About the shopping cart? You didn't specifically address it to me, but no I do not usually get a shopping cart any time I go to the store.

By not answering my question, I assume you don't have an answer. You keep criticizing and making snide remarks without offering any alternatives.

blues7 · #68 05-24-2017, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

Good learning opportunity. With your background, what approach would you suggest for a civilian CCW encounter with a knife wielding attacker at 3 to 5 yards.

Not really my area of expertise and I haven't kept up with my martial arts training for many years.

Three to five yards doesn't afford a lot of reaction time. If you were startled and didn't see the attack coming, the bad guy is going to be on you before you have a reasonable chance of drawing your weapon from concealment.

(There's a big difference between running Tueller drills or being in a class where you know that you are about to engage, and walking down the road on a sunny day (or early evening) speaking to your wife when trouble jumps out unannounced from a hidden doorway or alley.)

So, if I'm surprised and it's too late to put a car or something between us I'm going to go hands on, hopefully immobilize the arm/wrist and draw my weapon for a contact shot.

If the opportunity allows for an escape or putting something between us I'd opt for that...if only for the time it would afford.

If I'm with my wife, which is probable, I can't run away but hopefully can afford her the opportunity to do so.

Honestly, I don't believe that there is a cookie cutter response as I can think of so many variables. In some I would strike, in some I would withdraw, in some I would run or seek cover. In others I would draw my firearm if time and opportunity allowed.

Not much help.

I will agree with others that mindset, combined with tactical and situational awareness provide a better opportunity of success...but success is not guaranteed.

If I were in the market for hands on training I'd contact Craig Douglas (southnarc) and / or Paul Sharp. Cecil Burch also comes to mind. These men have forgotten more about close quarters fighting than I ever knew on my best day.

Mister X · #69 05-24-2017, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues7

They wouldn't be my first choice were I in the market but I'll defer to others with more recent (privately offered) training than my own which was obtained on the job as an agent and while on our SRT team via SWAT schools and cross training with other domestic and foreign LE and military teams.

I wouldn't consider SWAT and Military training to be a first choice when looking to develop civilian handgun self-defense skills. I've worked a lot of them over the years and generally never found them to be exceptionally knowledgable or skilled in terms of reactive use of handguns and/or integrated unarmed combatives and the ones that were built their skills privately.

Pincus and Suarez are pretty good at what they do and extremely so certain isolated elements IMO. You can't get everything in one place, but both men offer excellent instruction in certain niches.

Walkingwolf · #70 05-24-2017, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

I wouldn't consider SWAT and Military training to be a first choice when looking to develop civilian handgun self-defense skills. I've worked a lot of them over the years and generally never found them to be exceptionally knowledgable or skilled in terms of reactive use of handguns and/or integrated unarmed combatives and the ones that were built their skills privately.

Pincus and Suarez are pretty good at what they do and extremely so certain isolated elements IMO. You can't get everything in one place, but both men offer excellent instruction in certain niches.

How many knife fights have they been in?

blues7 · #71 05-24-2017, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

I wouldn't consider SWAT and Military training to be a first choice when looking to develop civilian handgun self-defense skills. I've worked a lot of them over the years and generally never found them to be exceptionally knowledgable or skilled in terms of reactive use of handguns and/or integrated unarmed combatives and the ones that were built their skills privately.

I would agree. Most of that training is based upon the types of scenarios one encounters during entries, warrants, barricaded subjects, arrests etc.

However, some years before that I competed at the AAU level in martial arts, including full contact. So, I had a pretty good background to enhance what I picked up informally growing up in NYC and the training received on the job.

Ziggy2525 · #72 05-24-2017, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues7

... everything ...

Great answer. Thanks for replying.

Walkingwolf · #73 05-24-2017, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

About the shopping cart? You didn't specifically address it to me, but no I do not usually get a shopping cart any time I go to the store.

By not answering my question, I assume you don't have an answer. You keep criticizing and making snide remarks without offering any alternatives.

I have not made any snide remarks, you implied that I did which is not the same thing. That is why I did not answer.

Every part of every day life is an exercise in situational awareness. People just have to use it, most stops outside of law enforcement does not come from some magical training, that costs a lot of money. It comes from using their brains, their instincts, and those don't come about in classes. They are an everyday practice of mental preparedness for the worst, and hopefully that never happens. I liken it to people who have dangerous jobs, not just police officers.

Firemen look for it when they do inspections, where a problem might start. Professional truck drivers do not avoid accidents by driving by the seat of their pants. Even people who just drive cars it is no accident that some have a lifetime without accidents.

Statistics tell us that criminals are young, and outside of their vices usually very agile, and healthy compared to some of us. The statistics tell us that hitting a stationary target under stress is less than perfect. Running also takes agility, and usually the arms are used for balance. A healthy young runner is going to overtake someone easily while they are wildly shooting.

I will take using my SA to NOT get into that kind of situation over fancy tactical classes that are not realistic. Which has greater odds of survival, the attack that never happens, or the attack that does?

Mister X · #74 05-24-2017, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

Two comments. Not as any kind of expert gunfighter, but based on the simunitions FoF training I mentioned earlier.

1) When an athletic attacker was rushing us as fast as they could, the people in my course couldn't move backwards fast enough to make Rob Pincus' style work (in the class I took - 80% were active police officers or active duty military). With Pincus' approach, most of the people in the class also ended up spraying their shots and not hitting the attacker. It would be easy to try at full speed with Airsoft or paintball and see what kind of results you get.

2) In the times when Rob Pincus moved laterally, he moved in the direction of the knife and into the line of the attack. If he would have moved the other direction, away from the knife, he would have forced the attacker to shift the line of attack and given himself some space. With the targets acting as a wall, he didn't have a lot of space, but he had some.

Wow, an actual constructive comment that contributes to discussion and debate. Thank you.

At the distances involved, I don't think it really matters which direction he's moving. He's moving straight back when wanting to create separation, but he's not back-pedaling. Toes are pointed in the direction he's moving and he would not have to keep moving in a straight line. He can veer off at an oblique or perform a tactical "L" depending on how it unfolds. GOTX is a fluid concept. There are guidelines, but no set rules.

If in a confined areas such as a hallway, you would have to move straight back or maybe you are against a wall and can't move in the preferred direction you've drilled, so versatility in response is a must. In terms of the idea of always moving away from the weapon hand(even at ECQ range)a lot depends on your objective and training. In some situations I would actually prefer move to or be on the outside, so moving in a forward/circular oblique angle on the weapon side would be what I want to do.

Here's a good example of GOTX using dynamic lateral movement going both left and right....

Mister X · #75 05-24-2017, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

I have not made any snide remarks, you implied that I did which is not the same thing. That is why I did not answer.

Every part of every day life is an exercise in situational awareness. People just have to use it, most stops outside of law enforcement does not come from some magical training, that costs a lot of money. It comes from using their brains, their instincts, and those don't come about in classes. They are an everyday practice of mental preparedness for the worst, and hopefully that never happens. I liken it to people who have dangerous jobs, not just police officers.

Firemen look for it when they do inspections, where a problem might start. Professional truck drivers do not avoid accidents by driving by the seat of their pants. Even people who just drive cars it is no accident that some have a lifetime without accidents.

Statistics tell us that criminals are young, and outside of their vices usually very agile, and healthy compared to some of us. The statistics tell us that hitting a stationary target under stress is less than perfect. Running also takes agility, and usually the arms are used for balance. A healthy young runner is going to overtake someone easily while they are wildly shooting.

I will take using my SA to NOT get into that kind of situation over fancy tactical classes that are not realistic. Which has greater odds of survival, the attack that never happens, or the attack that does?

From post #62..."How seriously do you take your situational awareness. Or do you just watch tactikewl videos and a couple of times a year go to tactkewl training courses?"

That's not a snide comment in your opinion?

Just in case...from Merriam-Webster- Snide: adjective 1.Derogatory or mocking in an indirect manner.

Who said anything about situation awareness or that it was unimportant. It's a vital component of self-defense preparedness, but it cannot be counted on. If you believe all you need is SA, why even participate in this thread, because that's not what it is about. You don't know me, so don't be so quick to think you do.

blues7 · #76 05-24-2017, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

Wow, an actual constructive comment that contributes to discussion and debate. Thank you.

So, now you're the sole judge of the value of the replies in this thread. Hmmm, I thought I provided an honest unembellished response. Well, at least one person thought so which makes the effort worthwhile:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

Great answer. Thanks for replying.

I don't recall reading your CV, Mr. X. Feel free to provide us mere mortals with the details. I've been remiss in studying your bonafides.

Hasta luego.

Mister X · #77 05-24-2017, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues7

So, now you're the sole judge of the value of the replies in this thread. Hmmm, I thought I provided an honest unembellished response. Well, at least one person thought so which makes the effort worthwhile:

I don't recall reading your CV, Mr. X. Feel free to provide us mere mortals with the details. I've been remiss in studying your bonafides.

Hasta luego.

I have no problems at all with your posts most others. My comment was directed to only a couple of posts and I didn't make that very clear. My bad.

My background is primarily in the ECQ realm and various martial arts. I've posted most of them before.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/139508585-post185.html

richardw · #78 05-24-2017, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

Do you have a link of someone demonstrating this?

For the sake of clarity For readers I mention that you are referring to mu post #50 above.

I do not have a link. I have no idea if there is a video the method. I joined the Marines in September of 1959 at the age of 17 (skipped year in grade school). In Jan 60 I was deep in infantry training. I learned the technique then. I served until Sep 1989 and retired as a Master Gunnery Seargent ( equivalent to Sgt Major). I was I the infantry for those 30 years. I practiced the technique so much during all that time thatmit became a part of me, and it still is. It is like riding a bike. You just never forget.

Today at the ripe old age of 75 I can still do it because I am in fantastic shape. I work at that. So I have never looked for a different way.

You might find a video of it be looking for Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) or Krav Maga an Israeli system. Add to the search knife fighting. I have watched part of a YouTube video on the Krav Maga knife fighting defense. Once I saw that the initial steps were what I was taught I stopped watching. But the video shows the blocking and face strike for all types of knife thrusts. It gets the idea across vet well and lends credence to what I wrote.

richardw · #79 05-24-2017, 09:54 PM

Just finished reading the latest posts since this afternoon. I am saddened to see how some persons have denigrated others over what they wrote. This is an excellent form and this has been an excellent thread. Can we try to keep it that way? It's certainly OK to disagree or question, but doing it with personal derision is not OK. Let's be kind when we address on another. If we do, this will continue to be a nice pace to participate.

Muss Muggins · #80 05-24-2017, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

The firearms class was two days of a seven day unarmed and armed self-defense course Peyton Quinn used to put on at RMCAT in Lake George, CO. (pretty sure Peyton aged out and retired).

I don't recall who he had teaching the pistol portion of the course. Bill Kipp taught the unarmed section.

Peyton is still around. You could probably e-mail him and ask who he was using to teach the firearms portion back in 2007.

I stand corrected . . .

Muss Muggins · #81 05-24-2017, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

I have no problems at all with your posts most others. My comment was directed to only a couple of posts and I didn't make that very clear. My bad.

My background is primarily in the ECQ realm and various martial arts. I've posted most of them before.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/139508585-post185.html

A proper cv lists places and titles . . .

Walkingwolf · #82 05-24-2017, 11:17 PM

Let's throw some more real life reality on the fire.

Mister X · #83 05-25-2017, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

With a single knife wielding attacker, it was from 3 or 4 feet out to 20 feet. Exploding off the X isn't contrary to what I'm talking about.

What was taught in the class was you want a stable platform during the moments you're shooting. You don't want your feet dancing or running while you're shooting. You aren't taking up a full isosceles or weaver stance. You aren't pausing to sing the full course of "row row row your boat" before taking the next step.

You move perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon, drawing while moving. Even at 3 feet, the perpendicular move provided enough separation to allow drawing from strong side concealment. You pause your feet and turn your body towards the attacker just momentarily so you have a stable platform and then fire from retention. You move again perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon. You pause momentarily again so you have a stable platform and fire from retention.

My experience in the class was that people that didn't do the pause to get a stable platform (move and shoot) missed a lot and got stabbed (with a fake knife obviously). The people that paused when shooting (move, then shoot) hit the attacker almost every time before they could be stabbed (the class assumed multiple shots to the attacker before being stabbing stopped the threat).

That was my experience. YMMV.

I talked to Peyton and he thinks he would have taught your class himself.

Is this what you're referencing? From about 2:40-4:15

Muss Muggins · #84 05-25-2017, 05:51 PM

What happens when the attacker is left handed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardw

Let me start by saying that there are already good books and videos about hand to hand defense. Look for Krav Maga an Israeli system it MARMAP, Marine Martial Arts Program. I think there are even YouTube videos on both, and there might be phone/tablet app for them too.

Here is what I learned, when and where.

Defending against a knife attack

In 1960 in Marine Corps Infantry Training Regiment (ITR) now called called School of infantry. It was an 8 week course that you did after 12 weeks of boot camp. In boot camp we learned the fundamentals of hand to hand combat. In ITR It was not uncommon to practice those skills ten to twelve hours a week so at minimum you had 80 hours of training and practice. Part of that training was fending off a knife attack. When you were assigned to an infantry battalion that practice continued several days a week for several hours. You learned by rote.

Here is what we were taught. For the purposes of this description I am assuming a right hand attack from the front. If the attack comes from the side you have to pivot to face it. If the attack comes from the rear, say your prayers. Of course the fundamental rule is never let an attacker get behind you.

Keep in mind that these five steps have to be done in rapid succession.

Step one: face attacker head on with feet shoulder width apart. The stance is important. Keep you eyes shifting between the knife and attacker's eyes. Frequently the eyes will telegraph where the knife will be aimed.

Step two: using the left arm block the attacker's arm by placing your arm against his near the wrist. You should use that part of the upper side of your arm a bit below the wrist. That way you can keep maneuvering your arm along his as he tries to pull away or otherwise maneuver. Never grab the wrist at this point of an encounter. If you miss you could end up dead. The idea is to keep the knife away from you not to take it until later.

Step three: this is critical to get right. Staying in stance mentioned in step one, as you block with your left arm with you right arm make a strong fisted jab at the attacker' nose. You are not going for a knockout punch. You want to keep him off balance. Follow that with a heel of the palm of your hand upward under his chin. Use all the strength you can muster. That violently snaps the head back and causes a serious jolt to the brain stem/ spine junction. Done hard enough it can knock a person unconscious or kill him.

Step four: as soon as you have delivered the palm thrust, pivot on your left foot placing your right foot directly under his arm. This puts you at an angle to the attacker. While blocking his arm with your arm smash your right elbow into his face.

Step five: bring your right arm at your elbow over the attacker's arm at his elbow. Pull up on his elbow and push down on his wrist until you hear a crack. That is his elbow being dislocated. His arm is now practically useless to him. If he does not drop the knife grip his hand with your two hands and twist the wrist so the palm is going upward facing the sky. Continue to twist the wrist until he drops the knife of you break his wrist. At which point if he fails to drop the knife just take it from him. It's safe to do that because you have really destroyed his ability to use the knife.

All five steps should take no more than three to four seconds. That takes a lot of practice, but it is quite possible to master. If the knife attack is from the left side then you have to do the same thing to that side.

So in summary it is block, punch, thrust, lock arm, break wrist, disarm. I can assure you it works. I had to do it once in Nam, and I was really glad I did not have to go through that twice.

Forgot one thing. Never rush the attacker make him come at you. People in motion has less balance than those who are stationery.

Ziggy2525 · #85 05-25-2017, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

I talked to Peyton and he thinks he would have taught your class himself.

Is this what you're referencing? From about 2:40-4:15

stresshooting fireams training watch some action scenarios URL at end.mp4 - YouTube

It was in March 2007. IIRC, Peyton had one or two abscess teeth. He participated some in the shooting portion, but was really hurting, so he had someone else lead the indoor shooting instruction. Peyton did lead the outdoor range stuff.

RE: the video with Bill Kipp as the knife wielding attacker. Similar, but not exactly. Been ten years, but my recollection is we used blanks and simulations. No "rubber bullets" or Airsoft. Attacker had mask, chest protector, and coat for protection. Practiced from 20' down to 3' or 4'. Don't recall the attacks being that sloppy, but they did adjust the pace of the attack depending on the skill of the student. A couple principles in the video are the same. Move perpendicular to the line of attack, away from the weapon. Never turn your back towards the attacker. Not in the video, but like I mentioned in my earlier post, if you're moving, move. If you're shooting, shoot. No happy feet. Stable platform when you shoot.

Mister X · #86 05-25-2017, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

It was in March 2007. IIRC, Peyton had one or two abscess teeth. He participated some in the shooting portion, but was really hurting, so he had someone else lead the indoor shooting instruction. Peyton did lead the outdoor range stuff.

RE: the video with Bill Kipp as the knife wielding attacker. Similar, but not exactly. Been ten years, but my recollection is we used blanks and simulations. No "rubber bullets" or Airsoft. Attacker had mask, chest protector, and coat for protection. Practiced from 20' down to 3' or 4'. Don't recall the attacks being that sloppy, but they did adjust the pace of the attack depending on the skill of the student. A couple principles in the video are the same. Move perpendicular to the line of attack, away from the weapon. Never turn your back towards the attacker. Not in the video, but like I mentioned in my earlier post, if you're moving, move. If you're shooting, shoot. No happy feet. Stable platform when you shoot.

He says he doesn't know who it would have been, if it wasn't him. Irregardless, it would have been someone teaching his methods under his direction. Number 1 is his response to a copy/paste of post #30. Number 2 was regarding overview questions of the basic movement he uses in the drill. The fact he is expecting an assailant to fully commit from a long range charge explains the why.

From Peyton Quinn via email...

" 1. If this is supposed to reflect my stress shooting class then it is not fully accurate. Pausing for a stable platform can be done but it demands perfect timing. Under stress that's hard to achieve.

Further if the stepping off the attack line on a charging enemy is done right, he runs past you as he can't change his vector when running to get you at flat out speed. This is where timing is important, move off too soon and he can track and change his vector.

It is not necessary to have stable shooting as your brain (amygdala) won't let you take your eyes off the threat.

In my classes virtually nobody misses the attacker even as they are moving away.

My friend a lot of misinformation is out there about shooting incidents and what the skill set needed is. Once you have been there for real you see the truth. The more realistic the scenario and that means engaging a real adrenal dump, then it is easier to understand why the sights can't be used.

The foot work can be a shuffle or a step, it depends on the individuals leg length to some extent and their proclivity for moving really. It has to be simple, do not over think it get the essential concept of his being commited to the attack line before you move.

Now at 3 feet that is not available period as he has no real forward inertia. The only defense then is to slap the weapon, (maybe get cut too) as you step aside draw and fire. Most people are right handed so this means slipping the knife arm to the right as they move to the left and fire.

2. I have been doing this drill at RMCAT/STRESSHOOTING for over 30 years really. It somehow became known as the Tueller Drill I discovered years later to show police how quickly a person can close distance with knife attack.

The basic idea is a person 23 feet away can charge with a knife and stab a person repeatedly before that person could draw a concealed weapon and shoot and stop him. Indeed even with a quick draw exposed holster ( like some police carry) we saw that few people could draw and fire before contact with the knife was made.

The solution was to allow the attacker to be fully committed to the attack line and stepping off that line and to the side (diagonally), forward or backward and fire. After having been shown the technique half the people who failed , succeeded in the first attempt at using the technique. The other half took only two or three practice tries to get it correctly and avoid being stabbed.

Any technique that can't be learned in a few minutes really is often too complex to work under the stress of a real situation. That is part of my training philosophy with a very few exceptions.

Training methodology is really everything.. This is why boxers can easily defeat very quickly most Asian style trained MA people. It is not the techniques of boxing, which are only 5 anyway, but its contact stress training method."

Ziggy2525 · #87 05-25-2017, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

He says he doesn't know who it would have been, if it wasn't him. Irregardless, it would have been someone teaching his methods under his direction.

Unless you were there, how much or how little direction Peyton provided during my class is just speculation on your part. You would have no idea how functional or unfunctional he was to direct anything. If you weren't one of the 11 or so other students in that class, you're just guessing. You have no idea if the instruction was 100% Peyton, 99.9% Peyton. 95% Peyton. Having only taken the shooting course at RMCAT once, I can't compare it to any other class experience there.

I'm totally good having the conversation about your experience with RMCAT vs mine, but unless you happened to be in my class, don't tell me what my experience was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

Any technique that can't be learned in a few minutes really is often too complex to work under the stress of a real situation.

That was the philosophy I came away with. For both the unarmed and the pistol course. A few simple techniques that can be used by normal people, under extreme stress, across multiple scenarios. I don't know, maybe something like... If attacked with a knife, step off the attack line away from weapon. When you're moving, move. When you're shooting shoot. Don't mix them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

In my classes virtually nobody misses the attacker even as they are moving away.

I get that's Peyton's position. I didn't watch the video a second time, but I'm pretty sure even the video you linked doesn't support that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

Now at 3 feet that is not available period as he has no real forward inertia. The only defense then is to slap the weapon, (maybe get cut too) as you step aside draw and fire. Most people are right handed so this means slipping the knife arm to the right as they move to the left and fire.

Great for a right hand attack. How's that work with a left handed attacker? Or are there two techniques now, not just one?

I totally want to leverage your 30 years of teaching ECQ self defense. It could really help everybody on this forum. What's the simple, unified technique that you teach, that only takes a few minutes to learn, that a normal person (not a UFC invitee or Olympic martial artist) can use, and works against both a left and right handed knife attack? Could you post a video? How valuable would that be?

Muss Muggins · #88 05-25-2017, 10:31 PM

Nobody can predict how he/she will react to a particular situation until he/she actually faces it. All the training in the world goes out the window when somebody punches you in the mouth unexpectedly. Watch UFC fights. Most highly trained all around fighters in the world. Unless somebody gets in a lucky punch or kick, everybody ends up rolling around on the canvas hitting anything they can find. Anybody who says they can train people to defend themselves flawlessly is lying. Anybody who claims that self defense isn't a messy, hair pulling, groin smacking wrestling match is lying. I can take any self serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds. I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat . . .

Mister X · #89 05-25-2017, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

Unless you were there, how much or how little direction Peyton provided during my class is just speculation on your part. You would have no idea how functional or unfunctional he was to direct anything. If you weren't one of the 11 or so other students in that class, you're just guessing. You have no idea if the instruction was 100% Peyton, 99.9% Peyton. 95% Peyton. Having only taken the shooting course at RMCAT once, I can't compare it to any other class experience there.

I'm totally good having the conversation about your experience with RMCAT vs mine, but unless you happened to be in my class, don't tell me what my experience was.

That was the philosophy I came away with. For both the unarmed and the pistol course. A few simple techniques that can be used by normal people, under extreme stress, across multiple scenarios. I don't know, maybe something like... If attacked with a knife, step off the attack line away from weapon. When you're moving, move. When you're shooting shoot. Don't mix them.

I get that's Peyton's position. I didn't watch the video a second time, but I'm pretty sure even the video you linked doesn't support that.

Great for a right hand attack. How's that work with a left handed attacker? Or are there two techniques now, not just one?

I totally want to leverage your 30 years of teaching ECQ self defense. It could really help everybody on this forum. What's the simple, unified technique that you teach, that only takes a few minutes to learn, that a normal person (not a UFC invitee or Olympic martial artist) can use, and works against both a left and right handed knife attack? Could you post a video? How valuable would that be?

Only the first, short paragraph is mine. The entire rest of that post is quoting Peyton. I don't know Peyton Quinn, have never trained with him and his instruction and ideas obviously differ quite a bit from mine. I only asked his opinion and am just relaying what he said to better understand what you were describing because it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

In terms of my statement. You said Peyton was there, but was ailing. He said it was his class and has no idea who else would have taught for him. So, yes I'm assuming that if he had someone fill in for him, they would teach his material as directed by him.

blues7 · #90 05-25-2017, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat . . .

I've had similar experiences.

The problem with choreography is that the real world rarely presents you with a partner (aka opponent) willing to perform the same dance.

And I will also agree that the chances of any given encounter working out according to a particular script is very unlikely.

That said, I won't argue that the more tools you have in your toolbox the more likely you'll find one to fit the occasion.

In my own case, experience has taught me that I will usually revert to basic techniques that have become somewhat instinctive over the years. With my limited skill set KISS is what works for me, especially at this point in life.

Muss Muggins · #91 05-25-2017, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blues7

I've had similar experiences.

The problem with choreography is that the real world rarely presents you with a partner (aka opponent) willing to perform the same dance.

And I will also agree that the chances of any given encounter working out according to a particular script is very unlikely.

That said, I won't argue that the more tools you have in your toolbox the more likely you'll find one to fit the occasion.

In my own case, experience has taught me that I will usually revert to basic techniques that have become somewhat instinctive over the years. With my limited skill set KISS is what works for me, especially at this point in life.

Well, work on a scenario that starts from 6 feet away. I throw my knife at you as I bum rush you, step on your foot, throw an upward elbow under your chin, turn sideways as you fall on your back, and I slam my other elbow on your nose. If any of the above steps get blocked, the bum rush continues, along with the elbow strikes . . .

Not sure what tool helps that, except trying to stay conscious . . .

blues7 · #92 05-25-2017, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Well, work on a scenario that starts from 6 feet away...

I'd rather not. (And I'm hoping those days are over.)

Mister X · #93 05-25-2017, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Nobody can predict how he/she will react to a particular situation until he/she actually faces it. All the training in the world goes out the window when somebody punches you in the mouth unexpectedly. Watch UFC fights. Most highly trained all around fighters in the world. Unless somebody gets in a lucky punch or kick, everybody ends up rolling around on the canvas hitting anything they can find. Anybody who says they can train people to defend themselves flawlessly is lying. Anybody who claims that self defense isn't a messy, hair pulling, groin smacking wrestling match is lying. I can take any self serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds. I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat . . .

There are many professional MMA fighters who are also defensive tactics instructors, including many members of the Gracie family and their affiliates. They pretty much still welcome all open challenges. I'll put you into contact with a few if you would like. St.Louis isn't too far is it?

UFC matches involve equally matched opponents with comparable skill and abilities. You pit a high level MMA fighter against an average person even one with some moderate training and the fight will be over very quickly. This is easily demonstrated.

Muss Muggins · #94 05-26-2017, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

There are many professional MMA fighters who are also defensive tactics instructors, including many members of the Gracie family and their affiliates. They pretty much still welcome all open challenges. I'll put you into contact with a few if you would like. St.Louis isn't too far is it?

UFC matches involve equally matched opponents with comparable skill and abilities. You pit a high level MMA fighter against an average person even one with some moderate training and the fight will be over very quickly. This is easily demonstrated.

Use your favorite search engine to find "MMA fighter beaten in bar/street fight." Some well known names, looks like any other bar fight. Sometimes the MMA dude wins, sometimes he loses, most of the time it's a messy wrestling match as I described above which ends in a tie. I can't link any of the videos because as you might imagine, they all contain foul language.

Mister X · #95 05-26-2017, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Use your favorite search engine to find "MMA fighter beaten in bar/street fight." Some well known names, looks like any other bar fight. Sometimes the MMA dude wins, sometimes he loses, most of the time it's a messy wrestling match as I described above which ends in a tie. I can't link any of the videos because as you might imagine, they all contain foul language.

I came up with nothing, so send me some links via pm. Anything is possible, but it's highly unlikely the average person will be able to mount much of an offense or defense in a street fight against a high level MMA fighter. Key word there is high level and I'm only referring to unarmed fights. Maybe if there is a huge size disparity. I've seen it many times first hand. The fights are usually over quickly.

So, are you coming to St.Louis or not? I would very much like to see how you are able to "take any self-serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds."

Kanewpadle · #96 05-26-2017, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

I came up with nothing, so send me some links via pm. Anything is possible, but it's highly unlikely the average person will be able to mount much of an offense or defense in a street fight against a high level MMA fighter. Key word there is high level and I'm only referring to unarmed fights. Maybe if there is a huge size disparity. I've seen it many times first hand. The fights are usually over quickly.

So, are you coming to St.Louis or not? I would very much like to see how you are able to "take any self-serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds."

When it comes to street fighting there are two kinds. Those who can and those who can't/won't. I'll take a seasoned street fighter over any other.

What people don't understand is that it is extremely difficult to prepare for someone that doesn't play by the rules because there are no rules. The one rule on the street is it's either you or me. Fighting and fighting for your life are two different things.

And quit messing with Muss. Look at the guys picture. He's huge!

Kanewpadle · #97 05-26-2017, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Nobody can predict how he/she will react to a particular situation until he/she actually faces it. All the training in the world goes out the window when somebody punches you in the mouth unexpectedly. Watch UFC fights. Most highly trained all around fighters in the world. Unless somebody gets in a lucky punch or kick, everybody ends up rolling around on the canvas hitting anything they can find. Anybody who says they can train people to defend themselves flawlessly is lying. Anybody who claims that self defense isn't a messy, hair pulling, groin smacking wrestling match is lying. I can take any self serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds. I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat . . .

You gotta love a guy with confidence.

I wonder where that came from? Experience perhaps?

Mister X · #98 05-26-2017, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

When it comes to street fighting there are two kinds. Those who can and those who can't/won't. I'll take a seasoned street fighter over any other.

What people don't understand is that it is extremely difficult to prepare for someone that doesn't play by the rules because there are no rules. The one rule on the street is it's either you or me. Fighting and fighting for your life are two different things.

And quit messing with Muss. Look at the guys picture. He's huge!

Of course there is a difference, but a fairly high percentage of MMA fighters are also seasoned street-fighters. If you think there being no rules on street will matter that much and you believe by employing foul tactics you will be successful in an unarmed fight with a proficient MMA fighter, I would like to see it and I mean that literally. Many schools will accept no rules challenges if someone comes in with ill will.

Mister X · #99 05-26-2017, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

You gotta love a guy with confidence.

I wonder where that came from? Experience perhaps?

I've heard it all before many times, so let us find out. All he has to do is show up. I'll even pay for his gas as long as he doesn't back out after he arrives.

blues7 · #**100** 05-26-2017, 10:28 AM

Speaking of "no rules"...I still have an old videotape of recordings I made of UFC 1 through 6. (Of course I no longer have a VCR.)

Some of the bouts in the early days were hair raising in their ferocity due to the dearth of rules at the time.

I have to admit that I was disappointed for a while when it became more "civilized" but I'm sure that it was better in the long run. (At least for the health of many fighters.)

ETA: I hope we can get past some of the unnecessary finger pointing and bravado in this thread and share information that may be useful to each other without one-upmanship. I think most of us have a common interest in self and home defense here and there is much to be learned from many points of view. No one person or system has proven to be the "be all, and end all".

I know that as an older coot who keeps himself in pretty fair condition, I'm not against learning a new trick or two that might prove useful in a tight spot. Hope you guys can forgive the pontificating.