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  #101  
Old 05-26-2017, 12:24 PM
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ETA: I hope we can get past some of the unnecessary finger pointing and bravado in this thread and share information that may be useful to each other without one-upmanship. I think most of us have a common interest in self and home defense here and there is much to be learned from many points of view. No one person or system has proven to be the "be all, and end all".
...
As totally the UN-expert, I think one of the mismatches in the thread is people have different perspectives of the threat or the risk they are preparing for. I'll toss my view out there and then everyone can tear it down.

Humor me with an analogy. I view the the problem as similar to wrestling in High School. A wrestler that practices religiously, but has mediocre athletic ability, will probably never beat the four time state champion. It doesn't matter how much heart the mediocre wrestler has. On the other hand, if that same mediocre wrestler has just a few foundational skills that he practices regularly (single leg take down, double leg takedown, arm bar, etc.), he will most likely out wrestle a better athlete with limited wrestling experience. Keep the analogy in mind for a second.

I'm not a cop. I'm not serving warrants or chasing down bad guys. I'm 60+ years old. I'm in decent shape, but there's no way I'm going to out fight or out run a professional street fighter/MMA fighter/Spetsnaz Green Beret Crip knife wielding assassin. No matter how much I train.


My self defense goal is to give me as much of an advantage as I can by using a layered defense (nothing unique to me). My layers are:

1. I don't go to stupid places or hang around with people that do really stupid things.

2. I try not to go to OK places at stupid hours.

3. I try to be situationally aware of what's going on around me.

4. My first line of active defense, if possible, is to diffuse the situation verbally.

5. Haven't had to use it, but my second line of defense is to use my old man version of runfu. Obviously only works if you're not protecting your family.

6. Also haven't had to use it, but my last line of defense is to have a few really simple tools that I can practice regularly in different scenarios and use to either give me a chance to create some distance from an attacker or give them a good reason to find something else to do. My goal is to use the tools without injuring my family or bystanders in the process (like shooting bystanders).

If I'm attacked by a professional street fighter/MMA fighter/Spetsnaz Green Beret Crip knife wielding assassin, I'm not going to win that one. At my age, no matter how much I train, nothing other than luck will get me out of that alive.

So, back to the wresting analogy. Risk wise, I see myself like the wrestler with mediocre athletic ability (age), but that has a few basic skills that I practice frequently. If I'm attacked, it most likely will be random chance at the ATM, grocery store, movie theater, getting gas at the local "stop and rob," or by a road ragger. If I'm attacked, attacker won't likely be the professional street fighter. It'll be a couple 16 year old wanna be gangsters, a drug addict (probably meth around here) or a whack job in his car. I feel like the my few basic skills will work with that crowd.

That's how I see it anyway.

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  #102  
Old 05-26-2017, 12:34 PM
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You can always find the mall ninjas the moment they start with the "come to me" challenges. If you want to challenge him, you go to him.

If your so bad go to any police K9 training center, and take on their dogs. The dogs will come at you the same way a killer will with a knife. Then nobody gets hurt except for some egos.
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  #103  
Old 05-26-2017, 12:45 PM
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Ziggy, your point of view makes a lot of sense to me...but then I'm 64 and in a similar place. I no longer chase bad guys, no longer fight at a dojo, etc.

I keep up my shooting skills weekly or bi-weekly and qualify yearly for LEOSA in addition to my state CCH permit.

I weight train a couple times a week but even so I'm not overconfident when it comes to having to grapple a younger man as I'd probably gas out faster. If I have to fight I want to get it over with very quickly or I will have to rely on one or another tool.

99% of it, as you say, is avoiding places and situations that put you at risk. The other 1% is beyond our control and that's just the way it is.

I try to maintain a clear focus and mindset against the day that I have to address a 1% scenario.
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  #104  
Old 05-26-2017, 12:53 PM
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I think, and I could be wrong is that as a civilian concealed carrier the object is not to engage if you do not have to. Seek cover or relocate out of harms way. If you must engage do so and then be ready to disengage once your threat is no more and seek cover and LE.
I don't like to see our military disparaged. Many of them have seen true combat and must be respected for their knowledge. Many LEO's have also seen combat so to speak and they too should be respected. Civilians who have seen the use of their firearms and survived should also be listened to no matter what they did to survive. Take all of the good and try and learn from it as it could and may save your life.
In my experience, when you say hoot and move it really means shoot and move to a position of cover.
I had the privilege of being trained by a real, retired Navy SEAL and I learned more in 8 hours from that man than I did at my agency in 25 years I think. I became more confidant in my abilities to do the various tasks that I was thrust into during the course of my shifts.
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  #105  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:22 PM
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I had the privilege of being trained by a real, retired Navy SEAL and I learned more in 8 hours from that man than I did at my agency in 25 years I think. I became more confidant in my abilities to do the various tasks that I was thrust into during the course of my shifts.
My first SWAT school was conducted by Ft. Lauderdale P.D. back in the late 80's or early 90's. Chris Caracci, former SEAL Team 6 member and then a Ft. Lauderdale officer, was the primary trainer on that course. (I believe he later worked at Gunsite as well but I haven't kept up with his career for a few years.) Learned a lot of good techniques from Chris. (And later on from training with SAS and other military and LE teams.)
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  #106  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:35 PM
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You can always find the mall ninjas the moment they start with the "come to me" challenges. If you want to challenge him, you go to him.

If your so bad go to any police K9 training center, and take on their dogs. The dogs will come at you the same way a killer will with a knife. Then nobody gets hurt except for some egos.
He presented an indirect challenge in post#88 and I responded with a direct one. I'm just offering him a chance to demonstrate his self-declared combatives prowess on the mat. I don't live in St.louis, but it's fairly close to where he lives. I know several instructors there and will be traveling there next month myself.

I'm not sure what dogs or knives have to do with it.
  #107  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:42 PM
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He presented an indirect challenge in post#88 and I responded with a direct one. I'm just offering him a chance to demonstrate his self-declared combatives prowess on the mat. I don't live in St.louis, but it's fairly close to where he lives. I know several instructors there and will be traveling there next month myself.

I'm not sure what dogs or knives have to do with it.
That is not the way I see it, he made a comment on his experience, YOU took it to the next level. Now we see you are not even going to step up to the place yourself, you need to use surrogates. What many members are trying to get across you refuse to listen and beat your P4P drum. Sorta like that Yeager fella.
  #108  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:46 PM
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ETA: I hope we can get past some of the unnecessary finger pointing and bravado in this thread and share information that may be useful to each other without one-upmanship. I think most of us have a common interest in self and home defense here and there is much to be learned from many points of view. No one person or system has proven to be the "be all, and end all".
I agree wholeheartedly, but some people make that extremely difficult. If you start making declarations about what you are able to do and essentially calling someone out you should be prepared to back it up. Posts like #88 derail the civility. I'll actually agree that most DT instructors completely absolutely suck. They can fight about as well as most LEO's can shoot. They usually have only taken a short certification course and only instruct at their local PD. It obviously doesn't take much and I can assure you that I and the individuals I reference are not those guys. There are exceptions of course in both instances and like I stated before, there are many high level fighters that also teach DT.

Most fighters have egos and I'm no exception. I truly try to engage in respectful debate and discussion, but there is a limit to my patience. I'm actually much gentler on here than I am in my daily life, but if you push too hard, I'm going to push back. I do not receive nor do I tolerate being disrespected in my everyday life nor will I tolerate it here. If you wouldn't say it to someone face to face, you shouldn't say it here.
  #109  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:51 PM
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That is not the way I see it, he made a comment on his experience, YOU took it to the next level. Now we see you are not even going to step up to the place yourself, you need to use surrogates. What many members are trying to get across you refuse to listen and beat your P4P drum. Sorta like that Yeager fella.

I'll be there next month. If he truly wants me, he can have me, but in all honestly, I don't think that's quite fair and was actually going to recommend someone smaller or older.
  #110  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:57 PM
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I'll be there next month. If he truly wants me, he can have me, but in all honestly, I don't think that's quite fair and was actually going to recommend someone smaller or older.
That's funny, you actually went deeper down the rabbit hole.
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Old 05-26-2017, 02:05 PM
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That's funny, you actually went deeper down the rabbit hole.
I'm not sure what you mean.
  #112  
Old 05-26-2017, 02:14 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean.
If you don't I can't help you. I guess that is what happens when someone mixes reality with fantasy.
  #113  
Old 05-26-2017, 03:26 PM
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If you don't I can't help you. I guess that is what happens when someone mixes reality with fantasy.
What's the fantasy? This goes on in martial arts schools on a regular basis.
  #114  
Old 05-26-2017, 03:29 PM
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What's the fantasy? This goes on in martial arts schools on a regular basis.
You planning on using your firearm in MA class to defend yourself?
  #115  
Old 05-26-2017, 03:31 PM
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You planning on using your firearm in MA class to defend yourself?
No. What in the world are you talking about?

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  #116  
Old 05-26-2017, 03:44 PM
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No. What in the world are you talking about?
I am talking about the topic of this thread. But I believe somewhere along the line vanity has blurred the opening post.

Do you plan on shooting another student while moving/running in martial arts class?

I bet you think this thread is about you?
  #117  
Old 05-26-2017, 03:57 PM
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I am talking about the topic of this thread. But I believe somewhere along the line vanity has blurred the opening post.

Do you plan on shooting another student while moving/running in martial arts class?

I bet you think this thread is about you?
Post #88 got it off topic. My issue is with the comment ...

"I can take any self serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds. I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat..."

You do understand what defensive tactics are don't you?

Considering I'm the only guy on this thread who mentioned being a DT instructor and regularly brings up Force on Force training, I assumed that comment was directed towards me. Even if it wasn't, it includes me and a great many of my friends, instructors and students. If someone makes such a statement, they should be prepared to back it up.
  #118  
Old 05-26-2017, 03:58 PM
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Mister X and Walkingwolf,

Would you please knock it off. It is pointless from the perspective of people interested in this thread but not in the running unrelated arguments. Thanks for doing what I ask.
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  #119  
Old 05-26-2017, 04:06 PM
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Mister X and Walkingwolf,

Would you please knock it off. It is pointless from the perspective of people interested in this thread but not in the running unrelated arguments. Thanks for doing what I ask.
Good idea...

The story so far:

Rocky 3 - Mr. T - I pity the fool - YouTube
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  #120  
Old 05-26-2017, 04:09 PM
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Mister X and Walkingwolf,

Would you please knock it off. It is pointless from the perspective of people interested in this thread but not in the running unrelated arguments. Thanks for doing what I ask.
Sorry, this thread should get back on topic, and not be focused on anyone's ego.
  #121  
Old 05-26-2017, 05:15 PM
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This is why I don't spend good money on training that will be deemed terrible by the next trainer.
I'm sorry, but that's my take on things.
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  #122  
Old 05-26-2017, 05:22 PM
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This is why I don't spend good money on training that will be deemed terrible by the next trainer.
I'm sorry, but that's my take on things.
In your line of work it's probably "that ain't how you put out a fire, son...lemme show you how it's done."

And so it goes...
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  #123  
Old 05-26-2017, 05:31 PM
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So when you're shooting on the move...how far can you hit accurately at full speed moving and shooting?
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  #124  
Old 05-26-2017, 05:41 PM
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This is why I don't spend good money on training that will be deemed terrible by the next trainer.
I'm sorry, but that's my take on things.
It is your money after all. It is up to you to decide how to spend it. Keep in mind most trainers are out to get your/our money, it is how they make a living. Some have better morals than others, some have better methods than others.

I have a very high regard for MA instructors, tactical firearms trainers not so much. See it is much easier to become a firearms trainer than it is a MA trainer.

Most of the training I received was not from commercial firearms trainers but police officers, and military paid by the state, or federal government. Most of those were outstanding, and dedicated to saving the lives of police officers with practical methods that officers would actually use. Included in that training was always classroom, studies of actual incidents. We had specific training on SA techniques to avoid injury, or death due to a violent encounter.

When asked I suggest people check with their local law enforcement who to get training from. Most of them know a BS artist, and who is not. It is hard to do specific training on SA because there is so many factors of what to look for. Most importantly is to look, pay attention.

You see very few people will be a victim of a violent attack, and those odds are lower than statistics. There are certain people who always manage to find themselves in the deep end of the pool. There chances are higher, so stay out of the deep end.

As I have shown with one video that deadly attacks, especially with a knife come very quick, and close, without any warning. Distance is your friend, unless you know the person close to you is safe.

You also have to study why people commit crimes. Usually you can take a class on this at your community college. This will help you avoid getting into deep water.

To make it simple there are crimes of opportunity, which usually are not fatal. A armed robber wants your property, once they get it statistics tell us they will leave you alone. They don't want to get caught. Then there are those that plan a crime, sometimes a very violent crime. There are multiple reasons that they do this, revenge, mental illness, and many more. People that are doing it for revenge are unlikely to give any warning before an attack. They have planned it, and will execute it when they are very close. They are not going to tell you like some people see in the movies. Get close, and attack without warning.

I prefer to see people take classes that are practical to the statistics, and reality of actual incidents. I myself am not a trainer, but I know a good teacher when I see one, every student does. I am also not a tough guy, I am far from it. I will avoid trouble every time.

I also believe in using tools of life for safety, that is why I asked about the shopping cart. It is a barrier to a potential bad guy. Canned foods are a dangerous weapon by even sissies like me when thrown at an attacker. Bet not many tactical instructor, or even MA instructor teaches that. There are hundreds of items around you that can be used immediately to get to safety if possible. Though it still comes back to SA to recognize when to use them.

Hope I haven't bored you, I have thought about starting a SA thread. There are probably some on here, but then most probably would consider them boring.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:45 PM
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Mister X and Walkingwolf,

Would you please knock it off. It is pointless from the perspective of people interested in this thread but not in the running unrelated arguments. Thanks for doing what I ask.
Agreed. Enough of the nonsense. I'm done.
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Old 05-26-2017, 06:04 PM
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Listen, I appreciate anyone who is seriously training people and not just in it for the buck.
The trouble is, for every attack that you train to protect from, there are at least a half dozen others that don't conform to the program.
My belief, and it's only my belief, is that your attitude and commitment will matter the most. Most people can never train to cover every contingency.
Your mental attitude can carry you through some difficult places.
Be tougher than your attacker.
This stuff I hear about not being overly aggressive towards your attacker and escalating the encounter? BS.
If you're in a fight for your life, your attacker should be thankful they just survive the encounter.
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  #127  
Old 05-26-2017, 06:11 PM
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In your line of work it's probably "that ain't how you put out a fire, son...lemme show you how it's done."

And so it goes...
You are right, with some at least.
I ran rescue with a deputy sheriff and he used to say" what's the big deal? You put the wet stuff on the red stuff".
He was right! That's basically all there is to it and the same applies to what I'm saying.
Neither one is rocket science, you do what works and what works can be different in every case.
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  #128  
Old 05-26-2017, 07:43 PM
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Listen, I appreciate anyone who is seriously training people and not just in it for the buck.
The trouble is, for every attack that you train to protect from, there are at least a half dozen others that don't conform to the program.
My belief, and it's only my belief, is that your attitude and commitment will matter the most. Most people can never train to cover every contingency.
Your mental attitude can carry you through some difficult places.
Be tougher than your attacker.
This stuff I hear about not being overly aggressive towards your attacker and escalating the encounter? BS.
If you're in a fight for your life, your attacker should be thankful they just survive the encounter.

Absolutely correct and well said. Especially agree wit the notion that I'd attacked the reaction should be to be as violent as you can be without losing control to an adrenaline rush.
  #129  
Old 05-26-2017, 07:43 PM
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I'll be there next month. If he truly wants me, he can have me, but in all honestly, I don't think that's quite fair and was actually going to recommend someone smaller or older.
Well, now we're going to do this publicly. Date, time and location, ground rules, and determination of the winner . . .
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:59 PM
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Well, now we're going to do this publicly. Date, time and location, ground rules, and determination of the winner . . .
This isn't a gunfight is it?��

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Old 05-26-2017, 08:06 PM
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The "Meet Me In St Louie RUMMMBBBBLLLLEEEE".
Hey I'm up for a short road trip.
Been wanting to visit my old USMC buddy there.
I'll buy the winner a great St Louis rib dinner and drinks. (for the winner and his gal)
If MUSS or Mister X fail to show, I'll write bad things about you guys.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:11 PM
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Considering I'm the only guy on this thread who mentioned being a DT instructor and regularly brings up Force on Force training, I assumed that comment was directed towards me. Even if it wasn't, it includes me and a great many of my friends, instructors and students. If someone makes such a statement, they should be prepared to back it up.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:46 PM
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Come on guys, I thought we finally moved past this.
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Old 05-26-2017, 09:41 PM
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Come on guys, I thought we finally moved past this.
I guess not. But to publicly call someone out on a public forum is just wrong. Some folks have a very high level of self confidence in these matters. Self confidence comes from having been there done that more than once. And I have a feeling that those that have been there are simply just telling the truth. Not bragging.

And in my experience, which is considerable, Such a person is best left alone.
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Old 05-26-2017, 10:45 PM
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Wouldn't be the first time he's done so. Gettin' a little old.
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Old 05-27-2017, 11:12 AM
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Come on guys, I thought we finally moved past this.

I did, once it was brought to my attention that he was an LEO.
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Old 05-27-2017, 11:32 AM
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I did, once it was brought to my attention that he was an LEO.
What has that got to do with it? (And if I'm not mistaken, retired...like myself.)
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Old 05-27-2017, 12:13 PM
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What has that got to do with it? (And if I'm not mistaken, retired...like myself.)
I have an aversion to assaulting cops for a multitude of reasons. Many years ago I once made the mistake of challenging a State Police DT instructor to a non-profit MMA fight to raise money for local cancer victims. He declined, but my life was much more difficult than it needed to be for a very long time. I've seen pictures of Muss and know exactly who he is. He's an average size, out of shape, older gentleman. Like I said before, if he's truly interested in fighting, I'd recommend someone smaller and older. He should inform them he's LE either way. Plus, after having taught Cops for so long as well as having family members on the force, I usually have a certain amount of respect for the badge. I can't say that's really the case with Muss and he should conduct himself in a more professional manner, but issuing a challenge to an officer is generally not looked at very favorably by LE or those who train them. It's a no win situation from my perspective. And he's active BTW from what I understand, so he should definately conduct himself with more dignity. If there had been a shield on his profile or he had stated he was an LEO, I never would have said what I did.
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Old 05-27-2017, 01:40 PM
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I have an aversion to assaulting cops for a multitude of reasons. Many years ago I once made the mistake of challenging a State Police DT instructor to a non-profit MMA fight to raise money for local cancer victims. He declined, but my life was much more difficult than it needed to be for a very long time. I've seen pictures of Muss and know exactly who he is. He's an average size, out of shape, older gentleman. Like I said before, if he's truly interested in fighting, I'd recommend someone smaller and older. He should inform them he's LE either way. Plus, after having taught Cops for so long as well as having family members on the force, I usually have a certain amount of respect for the badge. I can't say that's really the case with Muss and he should conduct himself in a more professional manner, but issuing a challenge to an officer is generally not looked at very favorably by LE or those who train them. It's a no win situation from my perspective. And he's active BTW from what I understand, so he should definately conduct himself with more dignity. If there had been a shield on his profile or he had stated he was an LEO, I never would have said what I did.
Honestly, you could've answered my question without using it as a platform for further insulting Muss Muggins, (who I don't know at all), nor inflating your own purported abilities now that you no longer have skin in the game.

Frankly, that was a low blow and beneath the dignity of anyone who alleges respect for others, let alone the badge or LEOs.

While I have not always agreed with what I've read from Muss, the way you have comported yourself has left a bad taste and frankly I will have no further discourse with you.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:04 PM
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I think it is possible to respect the badge, but not the man.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:53 PM
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I think it is possible to respect the badge, but not the man.
Well ain't all you LEO's lucky?
Mr X will spare you guy's.
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:09 PM
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Well ain't all you LEO's lucky?
Mr X will spare you guy's.
He doesn't seem to understand that replying to an honestly proffered question is not an invitation to use it as a platform to denigrate another that the one who posed the question did not reference.

It is not only unseemly but cowardly given the fact that he was the one throwing down the gauntlet then picking it up and pretending that he was doing the other party a favor by doing so. Where I'm from a man would have a hard time living that down. (That said, I personally could care less about the "grudge match".)

The best thing to be done would be to quit running his mouth, (metaphorically speaking), and quit the thread. An apology would also be in order but that might be expecting too much considering the behavior we have been treated to thus far.
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:24 PM
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I'm not sure where I was denigrating anyone in the post you reference.

Maybe Muss will tell us who post #88 was directed towards. Be honest now.

I can assure you there is no cowardice involved in my choices. I was completely sincere in my invitation until being informed of his status as well as a few other personal details regarding Mr.Muggins.
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:29 PM
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He doesn't seem to understand that replying to an honestly proffered question is not an invitation to use it as a platform to denigrate another that the one who posed the question did not reference.

It is not only unseemly but cowardly given the fact that he was the one throwing down the gauntlet then picking it up and pretending that he was doing the other party a favor by doing so. Where I'm from a man would have a hard time living that down. (That said, I personally could care less about the "grudge match".)

The best thing to be done would be to quit running his mouth, (metaphorically speaking), and quit the thread. An apology would also be in order but that might be expecting too much considering the behavior we have been treated to thus far.
I'd be curious who Mister X really is. He portrays himself as a well known trainer with a great reputation in the LE community. It would be interesting to see if the walk and talk match up. They very well may, but it's impossible to tell from posts on an internet forum.

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Old 05-27-2017, 03:34 PM
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I'd be curious who he really is. He portrays himself as a well known trainer with a great reputation in the LE community. It would be interesting to see if the walk and talk match up. They very well may, but it's impossible to tell from posts on an internet forum.
Ziggy, haven't a clue. Highly regarded and well respected trainers post under their own names quite openly on pistol-forum.com where I spend much of my time in addition to this site.

Perhaps he's afraid someone will put the lie to his alleged resume. As far as I know, there are very few criminals, terrorists or others of their stripe trying to hunt down trainers.
In fact, according to 'Mr. X' they should be afraid, very afraid.

Maybe it's really true...the pen is mightier than the sword.
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:38 PM
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Well Mr X could post a link to youtube or something.
Until then he's a story teller.
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:39 PM
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I'd be curious who Mister X really is. He portrays himself as a well known trainer with a great reputation in the LE community. It would be interesting to see if the walk and talk match up. They very well may, but it's impossible to tell from posts on an internet forum.
I don't recall ever stating I'm a famous trainer nor do I care to be. Otherwise I would be pushing my classes. Did I state I had a good reputation in the LE community somewhere? I honestly would call it mixed at best. I don't think anyone has had a problem with my material, but quite a few have had issues with me personally. My shortcomings obviously, I openly admit that.
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:08 PM
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I'm just curious Mister X, could you offer up the names of the police departments you trained or trained with?
That along with some video (someone had to have a video camera phone).
There are LEO's here who could contact the departments and get the low down.
Sound fair?
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:10 PM
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Perhaps he's afraid someone will put the lie to his alleged resume.
What part of my background do you find so impressive that you assumed it would be something worth lying about?
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:16 PM
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I don't recall ever stating I'm a famous trainer nor do I care to be. Otherwise I would be pushing my classes. Did I state I had a good reputation in the LE community somewhere? I honestly would call it mixed at best. I don't think anyone has had a problem with my material, but quite a few have had issues with me personally. My shortcomings obviously, I openly admit that.
In post #77 of this thread, you posted a link with your background. Some of the highlights were...

Quote:
I've taught defensive tactics, weapon retention and ECQ force-on-force to LEO's for nearly 30 years. I've worked with individual officers as well as helping PD's revamp their DT programs training their instructors.
Quote:
I was invited to compete in the UFC by Art Davie and was offered recruitment deals by team USA coaches in three different Olympic combat sports
Quote:
I used to own a ranch with my own private range and my LEO students were frequent guests.
You didn't say the words, but what you did say left me with the impression you have done a lot of work with LEO's. That you had a good reputation with LEO's or they wouldn't keep using you for ECQ training or coming to your ranch as guests back when you owned it. Being invited to compete in the early UFC and being recruited for the Olympics in 3 combat sports gave me the impression you're well known (I didn't use the word "famous").

I probably read into it something that wasn't there.
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