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Old 05-18-2017, 07:58 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Default Shooting while moving training.

In another thread someone mentioned learning to shoot while moving. As a 30+ year instructor, I've long had doubts about how much of this training is conducted. I'm going to generalize a bit here.

The usual thing is to introduce the students to the process at a very slow pace-almost a shuffle. In some cases, a longer pace is used, but the pace is still suitable for pall bearers. This is understandable, no one wants to see anyone get hurt and themselves get sued. Many of the folks who design competition stages fall prey to the same issue, and ROs frequently note that "you don't want to jar your sights off target."

The problem is, this doesn't reflect what one may NEED to do to avoid becoming a statistic. Very few practice at any reasonable response to a situation.

Example: you go looking for the source of the noise in the house in the wee hours of the night. You discover someone in the kitchen. They grab a knife and rush you in your very own real world Tueller Drill/21 foot rule test. Barring a stupendous demonstration of markspersonship that hits the CNS, if you do the octagenarian shuffle to the side, you'll be rooming in the morgue.

The MEU-SOQ qual course is available on the internet. They show movement while shooting (at close ranges) of 1 meter/second with good shot placement. This is a reasonable goal-though in the situation above you might want to try for more. When we did the test in training we had a 41 year old white guy do the 21 feet in 0.87 seconds.

Can't do this at the range? Put a big, cheap mirror on the garage wall or basement wall and dryfire it. At least practice keeping the front sight in the upper chest.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:59 PM
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I use barrels spaced apart on the range in a large triangle, with the reload magazines on the barrels to motivate the shooters to move faster than the Tim Conway shuffle. I vary the number of cartridges in the magazines and the distances to the targets to vary the challenge. It is somewhat self-limiting in an IDPA match with the novices going slow and the more competitive shooters getting their hustle on.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:10 PM
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Nothing funnier than civilians playing Rambo with loaded weapons taught by wanna be Rambo 'range officers".
You want to learn how to shoot on the move join the Marines or Army. It's Free!!!

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Old 05-18-2017, 11:45 PM
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Went to join the army in 1987 but the recruiter wanted me for intelligence. I only wanted the martial training and didn't want to help the empire especially after Bonzo visited Bitburg. If the USSR still existed I'd probably still be in the GRU.

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Old 05-19-2017, 12:49 AM
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Example: you go looking for the source of the noise in the house in the wee hours of the night.
That's the mistake. Correct that and none of the other stuff happens.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:23 AM
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Derailing the thread a bit. Pardon me. Go shoot a IDPA, ICORE, USPSA, 3 GUN, etc. event near you. Then practice what you are weak at.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:28 PM
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Ozark & Smoke

May you never discover the limitations of a stand a deliver response.
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:51 PM
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Derailing the thread a bit. Pardon me. Go shoot a IDPA, ICORE, USPSA, 3 GUN, etc. event near you. Then practice what you are weak at.
That's a very good idea if you have the time and money .. mainly the time .. but some can't find the time and then there are some like me with physical disabilities that prohibit that ..

Wish I would have done that when I was much younger ..

I do set up multiple targets at the range and move from cover to cover shooting both steel and paper .. and living in the country I have an area of trees I set targets up in the back 40 which I walk through shooting at different targets I have arranged to be seen only when approached a certain way ..

For the gentleman who thinks that you should join the Marines or the Army I have found that people teaching these classes are not Rambo types and are very well qualified many are ex special forces or have been long time in law enforcement training !! And those taking these classes are not Rambo types either .. but rather concerned conceal carry holders furthering their training !! The Rambo types are more the people who have been in the service that think they know more then others !!
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:55 PM
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That's a very good idea if you have the time and money .. mainly the time .. but some can't find the time and then there are some like me with physical disabilities that prohibit that ..

Wish I would have done that when I was much younger ..

I do set up multiple targets at the range and move from cover to cover shooting both steel and paper .. and living in the country I have an area of trees I set targets up in the back 40 which I walk through shooting at different targets I have arranged to be seen only when approached a certain way ..

For the gentleman who thinks that you should join the Marines or the Army I have found that people teaching these classes are not Rambo types and are very well qualified many are ex special forces or have been long time in law enforcement training !! And those taking these classes are not Rambo types either .. but rather concerned conceal carry holders furthering their training !! The Rambo types are more the people who have been in the service that think they know more then others !!

"Former S/F guys" and "retired LEO range honcho's". WOW!!!

You didn't waste your $$$.
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:04 PM
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I'm of the opinion that neither IDPA or joining the military will do much in preparing you to effectively use a handgun in the context of civilian self-defense.
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:28 PM
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I'm of the opinion that neither IDPA or joining the military will do much in preparing you to effectively use a handgun in the context of civilian self-defense.
I would say IDPA would before the military training would ..

my nephew spent 4 years in a war zone and told me he never fired his pistol .. but thousands of rounds through his rifles .. don't see the military training helping at all
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:54 AM
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Ozark & Smoke

May you never discover the limitations of a stand a deliver response.
You know nothing about me dude. You know nothing about my level of training. You know nothing about my level of experience.

I said nothing about stand and deliver. I said clearing your house alone is a stupid move. I said that if you don't try to clear your house alone in the middle of the night you won't be running Tueller drills in your kitchen at o dark thirty.
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Old 05-23-2017, 04:35 AM
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I'm of the opinion that neither IDPA or joining the military will do much in preparing you to effectively use a handgun in the context of civilian self-defense.
Somebody check the temperature in hell, I actually agree.

IDPA is a game. Just like IHMSA is a game, and Bullseye is a game. They are useful for developing a particular skillset, if you have the discipline to actually pursue it as such (most don't).

If you think IDPA is somehow representative of defensive shooting--well, when was the last time a target rushed you swinging a tire iron?

As for the military, the pistol isn't even considered a tertiary weapon, and most training amounts to annual familiarization. Besides, their record with handguns has been hit or miss.

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For the gentleman who thinks that you should join the Marines or the Army I have found that people teaching these classes are not Rambo types and are very well qualified many are ex special forces or have been long time in law enforcement training !!
"Ex-special forces" and "former Navy SEAL" have to be the two most over-rated sales pitches in the defensive handgunning world. For Chrissake, the NRA touts that it's new CCW insurance program was developed by "former Navy SEALs". How would their experience possibly be relevant?

Ditto for the sheer number of halfwits that claim such experience.

As for the LEO trainers, some are good, some are not so good. Many seem to hail from the gamer set--translating IDPA and PPC strategies into defensive tactics. And some claim experience without actually having time on the job. I've heard some instructors call themselves "retired law enforcement" from having a bare two years of sworn time in small departments.

*shrugs* Best way, near as I can tell, is to look at how they interact with people. If they're constantly hyping themselves, putting their students down, and talking in buzzwords, they're losers. If they can have a conversation where they can form a decent argument, they might have half a clue.
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Old 05-23-2017, 07:37 AM
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Ditto for the sheer number of halfwits that claim such experience.
Firearms seem to attract 'em--in droves.
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Old 05-23-2017, 08:06 AM
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Shooting on the move... Doc Holliday 2:20 - 2:32

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Old 05-23-2017, 08:22 AM
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I'm pretty sure I haven't read an account of a civilian being required to move, shoot and reload to survive a defensive situation. Move and shoot training, when done properly, is advanced training, even for those who carry guns for a living. I won't even begin to engage the thought that move and shoot transitions a defensive situation into an offensive situation. I haven't met a civilian yet, or seen one on the range, who even approaches the static skills necessary to participate in effective move and shoot training. The possibility that a civilian will have to move and shoot in a defensive situation is more remote than the possibility that a civilian will need a reload.

Learn how to work your firearm flawlessly, don't go looking for a fight, and be aware. You'll be fine.

(And for the record, Mister X and I finally have a thought in common. Don't get excited. It's just a narrow one . . .)
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
Nothing funnier than civilians playing Rambo with loaded weapons taught by wanna be Rambo 'range officers".
You want to learn how to shoot on the move join the Marines or Army. It's Free!!!
I agree. Semper Fi!
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:12 AM
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I'm pretty sure I haven't read an account of a civilian being required to move, shoot and reload to survive a defensive situation. Move and shoot training, when done properly, is advanced training, even for those who carry guns for a living. I won't even begin to engage the thought that move and shoot transitions a defensive situation into an offensive situation. I haven't met a civilian yet, or seen one on the range, who even approaches the static skills necessary to participate in effective move and shoot training. The possibility that a civilian will have to move and shoot in a defensive situation is more remote than the possibility that a civilian will need a reload.
Well said.

I spent many years in the Corps. I did 4 tours in Nam in the infantry. Before and between tours training was continual. Many hours of move and shoot drills and defensive drills were at the core of that training. That training paid off in combat, but combat is not comparable to civilian self defense situations.

Move and shoot is not a defensive action. It is purely offensive. Defense is best conducted statically, because, as we all hopefully know, accuracy is critical in defeating hostile attacks. Accuracy is much better when you are not moving. The popular notion that the best defense is a good offense is nonsense. It is a contradiction o terms. If you go on the offense, you are no longer defending. Promoting offense action as a defensive method is irresponsible. Civilian self defense is based upon stopping an attack not going on the attack. You stop an attack with good defensive skills. People who teach otherwise are going to get some of their students killed some day.

If someone came into my house I would just wait for them to come to me. Imagine the surprised look on the invaders face when they see a 9mm pointing at them. If they have a gun I would shoot them. I live alone so I don't have to worry about family.

If there were family in the house I would have to move in order to get them together and into a place where I could defend them. Then I would wait for the bad guy to arrive in that place.

The final thing I have to say is that the move and shoot training of civilians will likely not prepare them to be highly effective in their first hostile encounter. Reason: no one is shooting at the trainees. Those who have come under hostile fire understand that. It changes everything in a real fire fight.

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Old 05-23-2017, 10:54 AM
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I think the ability to shoot on the move with a handgun is very much a needed skill for the armed civilian. Even more so than an LEO and definately more so than a soldier due to the probability of the former being involved in a purely defensive/reactive situation at extremely close ranges vs often times offensive/preemptive for the latter.

Shooting on the move at relatively longer ranges would be considered a more advanced skill, but the vast majority of civilian defense scenarios unfold at point blank ranges. Movement or GOTX(getting off the X), often combined with integrated unarmed skills, would most likely be used to create distance or simply improve angular positional.

Here's one real world example....

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Old 05-23-2017, 10:56 AM
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My confusion. I guess I'm not sure what people mean when they say "move and shoot."

I understand the English, but I've seen the phrase used different ways.

If "move and shoot" means taking a step right or left to GOTX, drawing while stepping off the X, then shooting, that seems doable if needed for self defense.

If it means engaging in a running gun battle and firing your pistol while in motion, seems like a bad idea.

The way I was taught was "move, then shoot" and "shoot, then move."

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Old 05-23-2017, 11:02 AM
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My confusion. I guess I'm not sure what people mean when they say "move and shoot."

I understand the English, but I've seen the phrase used different ways.

If "move and shoot" means taking a step right or left to GOTX, drawing while stepping off the X, then shooting, that seems doable if needed for self defense.

If it means engaging in a running gun battle and firing your pistol while in motion, seems like a bad idea.

The way I was taught was "move, then shoot."
The former vs. the latter. There is little to no justification for getting into a running gun battle and such a scenario is outside most any self defense scenario.

Getting off the x to avoid presenting a static target to your attacker can be as simple as moving a step to the left or right or taking advantage of available cover or concealment.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
Nothing funnier than civilians playing Rambo with loaded weapons taught by wanna be Rambo 'range officers".
You want to learn how to shoot on the move join the Marines or Army. It's Free!!!
Bird hunting with flushing dogs will give you an experience.
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
My confusion. I guess I'm not sure what people mean when they say "move and shoot."

I understand the English, but I've seen the phrase used different ways.

If "move and shoot" means taking a step right or left to GOTX, drawing while stepping off the X, then shooting, that seems doable if needed for self defense.

If it means engaging in a running gun battle and firing your pistol while in motion, seems like a bad idea.

The way I was taught was "move, then shoot" and "shoot, then move."
It depends. Many gun centric folks envision having a certain amount of distance involved, but that usually isn't the case.

If I'm facing a gun at something like 3-5 yards, I'm going to move dynamically and any shooting I will be doing most likely be done while still in motion, at least initially.

Against a knife or any other contact weapon, I am usually going to want separation providing I'm alone. If they are pursuing which is often the case, I will once again very likely be firing while in movement.

There are no absolutes however as there are many variables to consider. The best way to hash these things out is through Force on Force training incorporating close-quarter scenarios with a full spectrum of possible modes of attack.
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:59 PM
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I think it's important to practice "move and shoot". It used to be taught in cop school as defensive maneuvers as well as an aggressive tactic. In the face of overwhelming odds, you have a duty to retreat and fight another battle. Or wait for backup. The movies and the 3-gun games only show aggressive move and shoot tactics. In real life, you need to deal with close combat defensive maneuvers that put space or cover between you and an attacker. That includes acquiring and discharging your firearm, when necessary. It was especially important training for traffic and felony stops.

How it might apply in civy life should be in a defensive posture such as when you may be caught in a store, restaurant or walking to/entering your car. Just because you carry a gun doesn't mean you should only practice aggressive tactics or shoot for a bull eye. The Marines or Army won't teach you that.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:00 PM
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It depends. Many gun centric folks envision having a certain amount of distance involved, but that usually isn't the case.

If I'm facing a gun at something like 3-5 yards, I'm going to move dynamically and any shooting I will be doing most likely be done while still in motion, at least initially.

Against a knife or any other contact weapon, I am usually going to want separation providing I'm alone. If they are pursuing which is often the case, I will once again very likely be firing while in movement.

There are no absolutes however as there are many variables to consider. The best way to hash these things out is through Force on Force training incorporating close-quarter scenarios with a full spectrum of possible modes of attack.
I have done FoF with both simunitions and fake knives. That was where I leaned the "move, then shoot" and "shoot, then move" thing. At least in the scenarios we worked on, those seemed to work better than "shooting and moving" simultaneously. That's been 10 years ago. "Good tactics" may have changed since then. ETA - I've taken other tactical training courses since then, just not with simunitions.

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Old 05-23-2017, 01:17 PM
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Quote from Delta Force veteran Sgt. Paul Howe

"Reference shooting on the move. It is a skill that all shooters aspire to learn and spend a great deal of time and effort trying to master. I have never had to use it in combat. When moving at a careful hurry, I stopped planted and made my shots. When the bullets were flying, I was sprinting from cover to cover, moving too fast to shoot. I did not find an in between. If I slowed down enough to make a solidhit when under fire, I was an easy target, so I elected not to."

http://www.combatshootingandtactics....real_fight.pdf
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:32 PM
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I have done FoF with both simunitions and fake knives. That was where I leaned the "move, then shoot" and "shoot, then move" thing. At least in the scenarios we worked on, those seemed to work better than "shooting and moving" simultaneously. That's been 10 years ago. "Good tactics" may have changed since then. ETA - I've taken other tactical training courses since then, just not with simunitions.
At what distances were these drills conducted?

Not too many felons with serious intent announce they are going to shank you from across the street. When the attack with a contact weapon erupts at close-quarters, you basically only have two initial choices. Either close and engage utilizing integrated empty hand techniques or explode off the X and create/maintain separation. Unless you are a whole lot quicker than your assailant, you'll never get the distance to stop and fire from a stable shooting base.
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:22 PM
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To offer some clarification, the term "move and shoot" originated in the military many years ago. It refers to taking aggressive offensive action by moving toward the assailants while shooting. Shooting from cover and going from cover to cover is not moving and shooting. It is just changing cover and shooting from the new cover spot. Moving right or left a few feet or moving up or back a few feet is not moving and shooting. Moving and shooting in civilian life as being taught is advancing or movement from one cover to the next and firing. It simply prolongs a gunfight. It is a bad way to defend yourself in a civilian defensive scenario unless you are trying to withdraw from the hostile scene. That means getting away not advancing on your assailant(s). As I stated in a post above, If you have to defend yourself against a gun attack, the best way is to be still, take careful aim, and stop the attacker. If there is cover you should take it. If not, reduce your target size by taking a couple cover shots while going to kneeling position. If the fire is heavy do the same thing and go prone from kneeling. Continual standing and shooting in a gunfight offers too big a target. Your attacker is likely to do that, so reduce your target size, take aim, and hit that big target he offers.

I have watched numerous videos of civilian trainers teaching how to defend in a gunfight by moving and shooting and holding a continual Iscocolese position. If I could, I would sue them for perpetrating a fraud. It just makes them money and puts their students lives at risk.

Believe me, from experience I can say that if you are attcked with a gun, your best chance of surviving unhurt or dead is to incapacitate the aggressor, and attempt to withdraw as you do that.

If you want to be Rambo, then so be it, but I am axpert at only one thing. That is not getting shot. I was shot on tour 2 and tour 4 in Nam. Getting shot sucks. Generally Marines stand their ground, but I am not a civilian Rambo. So, if I get into a gunfight today, if I cannot stop the attacker with the first few shots, I am going to try to withdraw.

Some might think that a bit of cowardice, but for me it is common sense based upon experience. I don't need another Purple Heart.
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:34 PM
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Bird hunting with flushing dogs will give you an experience.
Only if you hunt birds that shoot back . . .
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Old 05-23-2017, 05:22 PM
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At what distances were these drills conducted?

Not too many felons with serious intent announce they are going to shank you from across the street. When the attack with a contact weapon erupts at close-quarters, you basically only have two initial choices. Either close and engage utilizing integrated empty hand techniques or explode off the X and create/maintain separation. Unless you are a whole lot quicker than your assailant, you'll never get the distance to stop and fire from a stable shooting base.
With a single knife wielding attacker, it was from 3 or 4 feet out to 20 feet. Exploding off the X isn't contrary to what I'm talking about.

What was taught in the class was you want a stable platform during the moments you're shooting. You don't want your feet dancing or running while you're shooting. You aren't taking up a full isosceles or weaver stance. You aren't pausing to sing the full course of "row row row your boat" before taking the next step.

You move perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon, drawing while moving. Even at 3 feet, the perpendicular move provided enough separation to allow drawing from strong side concealment. You pause your feet and turn your body towards the attacker just momentarily so you have a stable platform and then fire from retention. You move again perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon. You pause momentarily again so you have a stable platform and fire from retention.

My experience in the class was that people that didn't do the pause to get a stable platform (move and shoot) missed a lot and got stabbed (with a fake knife obviously). The people that paused when shooting (move, then shoot) hit the attacker almost every time before they could be stabbed (the class assumed multiple shots to the attacker before being stabbing stopped the threat).

That was my experience. YMMV.

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Old 05-23-2017, 06:09 PM
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With a single knife wielding attacker, it was from 3 or 4 feet out to 20 feet. Exploding off the X isn't contrary to what I'm talking about.

What was taught in the class was you want a stable platform during the moments you're shooting. You don't want your feet dancing or running while you're shooting. You aren't taking up a full isosceles or weaver stance. You aren't pausing to sing the full course of "row row row your boat" before taking the next step.

You move perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon, drawing while moving. Even at 3 feet, the perpendicular move provided enough separation to allow drawing from strong side concealment. You pause your feet and turn your body towards the attacker just momentarily so you have a stable platform and then fire from retention. You move again perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon. You pause momentarily again so you have a stable platform and fire from retention.

My experience in the class was that people that didn't do the pause to get a stable platform (move and shoot) missed a lot and got stabbed (with a fake knife obviously). The people that paused when shooting (move, then shoot) hit the attacker almost every time before they could be stabbed (the class assumed multiple shots to the attacker before being stabbing stopped the threat).

That was my experience. YMMV.
Whose class was this?
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:55 PM
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Whose class was this?
Not yours, clearly . . .
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:22 PM
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Not yours, clearly . . .
Definately not. I am curious who is teaching what he described.
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:25 PM
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Definately not. I am curious who is teaching what he described.
You'll never know . . .
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:27 PM
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You'll never know . . .
Why is that?
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:32 PM
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Why is that?
He ain't gonna tell you publicly. Surprised?

(and really, why does it matter who?)
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:22 PM
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I run(move) to either get the Heck out of there, or get to cover. If I shoot the most important objective is stopping the threat, and bullet placement is prime. The faster I run, the less likely I get shot. I doubt most people can run at full steam, and place shots. So no Rambo training for me. I never will be tactikewl. Heck I don't even own a polo shirt, tactical vest, or 5.11 pants. I prefer tennis shoes to tactikewl boots.
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Old 05-24-2017, 01:01 AM
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Quote from Delta Force veteran Sgt. Paul Howe

"Reference shooting on the move. It is a skill that all shooters aspire to learn and spend a great deal of time and effort trying to master. I have never had to use it in combat. When moving at a careful hurry, I stopped planted and made my shots. When the bullets were flying, I was sprinting from cover to cover, moving too fast to shoot. I did not find an in between. If I slowed down enough to make a solidhit when under fire, I was an easy target, so I elected not to."

http://www.combatshootingandtactics....real_fight.pdf

So true. Amen!
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Old 05-24-2017, 01:10 AM
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With a single knife wielding attacker, it was from 3 or 4 feet out to 20 feet. Exploding off the X isn't contrary to what I'm talking about.

What was taught in the class was you want a stable platform during the moments you're shooting. You don't want your feet dancing or running while you're shooting. You aren't taking up a full isosceles or weaver stance. You aren't pausing to sing the full course of "row row row your boat" before taking the next step.

You move perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon, drawing while moving. Even at 3 feet, the perpendicular move provided enough separation to allow drawing from strong side concealment. You pause your feet and turn your body towards the attacker just momentarily so you have a stable platform and then fire from retention. You move again perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon. You pause momentarily again so you have a stable platform and fire from retention.

My experience in the class was that people that didn't do the pause to get a stable platform (move and shoot) missed a lot and got stabbed (with a fake knife obviously). The people that paused when shooting (move, then shoot) hit the attacker almost every time before they could be stabbed (the class assumed multiple shots to the attacker before being stabbing stopped the threat).

That was my experience. YMMV.
Forget it. If you follow it you might die.

I respect your effort to learn, yet I think you were ill advised. I have fought adversaries with guns and knives at close quarters, and I am able to write this post because my training kept me alive. It is past my bedtime so forgive typos. I am tired.

Stepping aside in a knife assault will get you stabbed! When you step aside you lose continuity of defense, a critical component of fighting. Then you have to regain it, that is to need to readjust into fighting mode. inam speaking about defensive composure. If you are unarmed, it is much better to stand your ground and concentrate on the attacker's knife hand position. If you have learned how, it is relatively easy to take the knife away. Not as easy as taking a handgun away, but easy enough. The secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist. Since I could write a book on that topic, I'll just stop there.

If you are being attacked by a knife neither the Isosceles nor Weaver position are of any value, but Weaver is better because it offers cover of vital organs better than Isosceles.

Today there is a better option.

By luck I had the good fortune to meet Paul Castle around 2002. Paul, who died in 2011, was the creator of the the Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) gunfighting system. He was a proven warrior in the British military and police. He designed the system from decades of experience. If you want to learn more about the C.A.R. System start here: http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR.pdf

The C.A.R. Gunfighting system really makes the Weaver and Isosceles stances obsolete for close quarter combat. If you really want to educate yourself in self defense, you must evaluate the system. While I value the many things I learned in the Corps, the C.A.R. system is better when it comes to civilian self defense.

I have no financial or otherwise economic interest in any entity offering training in the System. I write about it only because it is a life saver. Learn about the System and then re-evaluate your thoughts on this thread.
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Old 05-24-2017, 01:40 AM
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Default I'm not training for.......

I'm not training for a running gun battle. If I move anywhere it's backwards and maybe I should practice that. It will have to be simulated because the idea of running around while shooting would be impossible. If that is your goal, I don't think any training from unexpected positions could be BAD!

I like certain parts of most any system than is used in my self defense. I'll take what works for me.
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:14 AM
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Stepping aside in a knife assault will get you stabbed! When you step aside you lose continuity of defense, a critical component of fighting. Then you have to regain it, that is to need to readjust into fighting mode. inam speaking about defensive composure. If you are unarmed, it is much better to stand your ground and concentrate on the attacker's knife hand position. If you have learned how, it is relatively easy to take the knife away. Not as easy as taking a handgun away, but easy enough. The secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist. Since I could write a book on that topic, I'll just stop there.

Please don't stop there, I for one would love to hear more about your method for easily disarming a knife wielding attacker unarmed. Why not write a book? If you have the answer to a problem, which has apparently eluded every instructor I've trained with or read about over the course of the last three decades, you could make millions. If not interested in money, do it to help save innocent lives.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:21 AM
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Whose class was this?
The firearms class was two days of a seven day unarmed and armed self-defense course Peyton Quinn used to put on at RMCAT in Lake George, CO. (pretty sure Peyton aged out and retired).

I don't recall who he had teaching the pistol portion of the course. Bill Kipp taught the unarmed section.

Peyton is still around. You could probably e-mail him and ask who he was using to teach the firearms portion back in 2007.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:29 AM
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The firearms class was two days of a seven day unarmed and armed self-defense course Peyton Quinn used to put on at RMCAT in Lake George, CO. (pretty sure Peyton aged out and retired).

I don't recall who he had teaching the pistol portion of the course. Bill Kipp taught the unarmed section.

Peyton is still around. You could probably e-mail him and ask who he was using to teach the firearms portion back in 2007.
Thank you very much.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:57 AM
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Forget it. If you follow it you might die.

I respect your effort to learn, yet I think you were ill advised. I have fought adversaries with guns and knives at close quarters, and I am able to write this post because my training kept me alive. It is past my bedtime so forgive typos. I am tired.

Stepping aside in a knife assault will get you stabbed! When you step aside you lose continuity of defense, a critical component of fighting. Then you have to regain it, that is to need to readjust into fighting mode. inam speaking about defensive composure. If you are unarmed, it is much better to stand your ground and concentrate on the attacker's knife hand position. If you have learned how, it is relatively easy to take the knife away. Not as easy as taking a handgun away, but easy enough. The secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist. Since I could write a book on that topic, I'll just stop there.

If you are being attacked by a knife neither the Isosceles nor Weaver position are of any value, but Weaver is better because it offers cover of vital organs better than Isosceles.

Today there is a better option.

By luck I had the good fortune to meet Paul Castle around 2002. Paul, who died in 2011, was the creator of the the Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) gunfighting system. He was a proven warrior in the British military and police. He designed the system from decades of experience. If you want to learn more about the C.A.R. System start here: http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR.pdf

The C.A.R. Gunfighting system really makes the Weaver and Isosceles stances obsolete for close quarter combat. If you really want to educate yourself in self defense, you must evaluate the system. While I value the many things I learned in the Corps, the C.A.R. system is better when it comes to civilian self defense.

I have no financial or otherwise economic interest in any entity offering training in the System. I write about it only because it is a life saver. Learn about the System and then re-evaluate your thoughts on this thread.
I've never been in a gunfight or a knife fight. Never had to draw my pistol in self defense. Since you've mentioned you have been in multiples, maybe you could help me learn from your experience. Here are some areas I'd like to learn more about based on your post. Not trying to put you on the spot, just learn from your experience.

Shooting Stance: I try to take a tactical shooting class at least once a year. I've never had an instructor recommend Isosceles for anything but competition. Pretty much everyone recommends a boxing/wrestling stance. When shooting using both hands, your arms are Isosceles'ish with the pistol aligned with your dominate eye. I've heard that referred to as a "natural stance." What do you see as the weakness in that approach.

Moving Perpendicular to Knife Attacker: You say moving perpendicular to a knife attacker, away from the knife is a sure way to get stabbed. Help me understand that. From a geometry/trigonometry standpoint, moving perpendicular away from the knife creates the most distance the fastest. Most people can move laterally faster than they can move backwards and are less likely to trip. I'm a little confused on your approach. Could you elaborate?

CAR vs Retention Shooting: I did look up CAR. I could see how it would be very useful shooting seated from an automobile, but I'm struggling to understand how bringing the pistol up to your face and acquiring the sights would be faster than shooting from retention when when your attacker is very close. Can you provide some additional details on how that works.

Knife Disarms: I've taken a few courses where people advocate controlling the wrist. Grabbing the wrist is a fine motor skill. I've never seen it work when the people went all out. The defender always "died." Maybe someone that did a lot of Jujitsu. Can you talk a little more about your technique.

Not trying to put you on the spot. Just trying to learn from someone that's BTDT.
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:46 AM
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Only if you hunt birds that shoot back . . .
If you are receiving fire, it just may not be practice. But if you are looking for moving targets from unexpected places on rough ground, it would be this or paintball games.
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Old 05-24-2017, 02:31 PM
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Regarding incorporating movement while using a handgun to defend against a knife(or any contact weapon)...

Thoughts?



Last edited by Mister X; 05-24-2017 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 05-24-2017, 02:37 PM
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:02 PM
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Please don't stop there, I for one would love to hear more about your method for easily disarming a knife wielding attacker unarmed. Why not write a book? If you have the answer to a problem, which has apparently eluded every instructor I've trained with or read about over the course of the last three decades, you could make millions. If not interested in money, do it to help save innocent lives.
He speaks the truth, I have been attacked on duty a few times by a knife holder. Stabbed twice, cut once on the thigh. As bad as that sounds I was good as new with a couple stitches. NONE of those times did I attempt to draw let alone shoot. In fact I assaulted the person with the knife, and did exactly what he explained. Taking a stab, or cut to a non vital area of the body is preferable to getting your throat cut while trying to get, or hold a gun.

If you bring a gun to a close knife fight you will lose. First since we are law abiding citizens the attacker is already armed at ready. We cannot use force until we are threatened. The time you waste getting your gun is possibly going to be your last time above ground. If you can run, RUN, if not disarm your attacker, even if you get cut on the hand, or arm. A stab is not going to put you out of commission. And slicing is difficult in hand, to hand.

Situational awareness will keep you alive far longer than tactikewl training. Seems these guys have to invent new ways to make money.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:17 PM
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Regarding incorporating movement while using a handgun to defend against a knife(or any contact weapon)...

Thoughts?


GunFu: Rob Pincus, Combat Focus Shooting, "Shooting on the Move" - YouTube
Cowboy tactics~~remember the cowboys on horseback in the movies shooting behind them? How do you think that worked. 2012 two NYPD officers encounter a man with a gun who had already shot a victim. One officer stood his ground, one officer shot exactly in the manner of Rob. Nine bystanders were shot that day. It is complete waste of time to shoot, and not hit the threat.

If you can move, MOVE! You will move faster if you are concentrating on moving. Then when gaining some distance you might be able to draw, and fire. It might be just me, but if somebody threatens me with a knife, whether it is in their hand, or pocket, I am already backing up, and moving away. Not standing like an idiot waiting for them to pull it. Two people of equal abilities he person who has a knife running forward will easily outpace the person drawing, and trying to run backwards.

Sometimes police officers have no choice, but most of us do. Don't engage, don't be a target/victim.

Remember the whole point of a paid trainer, is to make money. Competition is high in the tactical market.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:20 PM
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Please don't stop there, I for one would love to hear more about your method for easily disarming a knife wielding attacker unarmed. Why not write a book? If you have the answer to a problem, which has apparently eluded every instructor I've trained with or read about over the course of the last three decades, you could make millions. If not interested in money, do it to help save innocent lives.
Let me start by saying that there are already good books and videos about hand to hand defense. Look for Krav Maga an Israeli system it MARMAP, Marine Martial Arts Program. I think there are even YouTube videos on both, and there might be phone/tablet app for them too.

Here is what I learned, when and where.

Defending against a knife attack

In 1960 in Marine Corps Infantry Training Regiment (ITR) now called called School of infantry. It was an 8 week course that you did after 12 weeks of boot camp. In boot camp we learned the fundamentals of hand to hand combat. In ITR It was not uncommon to practice those skills ten to twelve hours a week so at minimum you had 80 hours of training and practice. Part of that training was fending off a knife attack. When you were assigned to an infantry battalion that practice continued several days a week for several hours. You learned by rote.

Here is what we were taught. For the purposes of this description I am assuming a right hand attack from the front. If the attack comes from the side you have to pivot to face it. If the attack comes from the rear, say your prayers. Of course the fundamental rule is never let an attacker get behind you.

Keep in mind that these five steps have to be done in rapid succession.

Step one: face attacker head on with feet shoulder width apart. The stance is important. Keep you eyes shifting between the knife and attacker's eyes. Frequently the eyes will telegraph where the knife will be aimed.

Step two: using the left arm block the attacker's arm by placing your arm against his near the wrist. You should use that part of the upper side of your arm a bit below the wrist. That way you can keep maneuvering your arm along his as he tries to pull away or otherwise maneuver. Never grab the wrist at this point of an encounter. If you miss you could end up dead. The idea is to keep the knife away from you not to take it until later.

Step three: this is critical to get right. Staying in stance mentioned in step one, as you block with your left arm with you right arm make a strong fisted jab at the attacker' nose. You are not going for a knockout punch. You want to keep him off balance. Follow that with a heel of the palm of your hand upward under his chin. Use all the strength you can muster. That violently snaps the head back and causes a serious jolt to the brain stem/ spine junction. Done hard enough it can knock a person unconscious or kill him.

Step four: as soon as you have delivered the palm thrust, pivot on your left foot placing your right foot directly under his arm. This puts you at an angle to the attacker. While blocking his arm with your arm smash your right elbow into his face.

Step five: bring your right arm at your elbow over the attacker's arm at his elbow. Pull up on his elbow and push down on his wrist until you hear a crack. That is his elbow being dislocated. His arm is now practically useless to him. If he does not drop the knife grip his hand with your two hands and twist the wrist so the palm is going upward facing the sky. Continue to twist the wrist until he drops the knife of you break his wrist. At which point if he fails to drop the knife just take it from him. It's safe to do that because you have really destroyed his ability to use the knife.

All five steps should take no more than three to four seconds. That takes a lot of practice, but it is quite possible to master. If the knife attack is from the left side then you have to do the same thing to that side.

So in summary it is block, punch, thrust, lock arm, break wrist, disarm. I can assure you it works. I had to do it once in Nam, and I was really glad I did not have to go through that twice.

Forgot one thing. Never rush the attacker make him come at you. People in motion has less balance than those who are stationery.

Last edited by richardw; 05-24-2017 at 04:04 PM.
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