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Old 05-18-2017, 07:58 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Default Shooting while moving training.

In another thread someone mentioned learning to shoot while moving. As a 30+ year instructor, I've long had doubts about how much of this training is conducted. I'm going to generalize a bit here.

The usual thing is to introduce the students to the process at a very slow pace-almost a shuffle. In some cases, a longer pace is used, but the pace is still suitable for pall bearers. This is understandable, no one wants to see anyone get hurt and themselves get sued. Many of the folks who design competition stages fall prey to the same issue, and ROs frequently note that "you don't want to jar your sights off target."

The problem is, this doesn't reflect what one may NEED to do to avoid becoming a statistic. Very few practice at any reasonable response to a situation.

Example: you go looking for the source of the noise in the house in the wee hours of the night. You discover someone in the kitchen. They grab a knife and rush you in your very own real world Tueller Drill/21 foot rule test. Barring a stupendous demonstration of markspersonship that hits the CNS, if you do the octagenarian shuffle to the side, you'll be rooming in the morgue.

The MEU-SOQ qual course is available on the internet. They show movement while shooting (at close ranges) of 1 meter/second with good shot placement. This is a reasonable goal-though in the situation above you might want to try for more. When we did the test in training we had a 41 year old white guy do the 21 feet in 0.87 seconds.

Can't do this at the range? Put a big, cheap mirror on the garage wall or basement wall and dryfire it. At least practice keeping the front sight in the upper chest.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:59 PM
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I use barrels spaced apart on the range in a large triangle, with the reload magazines on the barrels to motivate the shooters to move faster than the Tim Conway shuffle. I vary the number of cartridges in the magazines and the distances to the targets to vary the challenge. It is somewhat self-limiting in an IDPA match with the novices going slow and the more competitive shooters getting their hustle on.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:10 PM
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Nothing funnier than civilians playing Rambo with loaded weapons taught by wanna be Rambo 'range officers".
You want to learn how to shoot on the move join the Marines or Army. It's Free!!!

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Old 05-18-2017, 11:45 PM
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Went to join the army in 1987 but the recruiter wanted me for intelligence. I only wanted the martial training and didn't want to help the empire especially after Bonzo visited Bitburg. If the USSR still existed I'd probably still be in the GRU.

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Old 05-19-2017, 12:49 AM
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Example: you go looking for the source of the noise in the house in the wee hours of the night.
That's the mistake. Correct that and none of the other stuff happens.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:23 AM
geddylee10002000 geddylee10002000 is offline
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Derailing the thread a bit. Pardon me. Go shoot a IDPA, ICORE, USPSA, 3 GUN, etc. event near you. Then practice what you are weak at.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:28 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Ozark & Smoke

May you never discover the limitations of a stand a deliver response.
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Old Yesterday, 04:51 PM
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Derailing the thread a bit. Pardon me. Go shoot a IDPA, ICORE, USPSA, 3 GUN, etc. event near you. Then practice what you are weak at.
That's a very good idea if you have the time and money .. mainly the time .. but some can't find the time and then there are some like me with physical disabilities that prohibit that ..

Wish I would have done that when I was much younger ..

I do set up multiple targets at the range and move from cover to cover shooting both steel and paper .. and living in the country I have an area of trees I set targets up in the back 40 which I walk through shooting at different targets I have arranged to be seen only when approached a certain way ..

For the gentleman who thinks that you should join the Marines or the Army I have found that people teaching these classes are not Rambo types and are very well qualified many are ex special forces or have been long time in law enforcement training !! And those taking these classes are not Rambo types either .. but rather concerned conceal carry holders furthering their training !! The Rambo types are more the people who have been in the service that think they know more then others !!
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Old Yesterday, 05:55 PM
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That's a very good idea if you have the time and money .. mainly the time .. but some can't find the time and then there are some like me with physical disabilities that prohibit that ..

Wish I would have done that when I was much younger ..

I do set up multiple targets at the range and move from cover to cover shooting both steel and paper .. and living in the country I have an area of trees I set targets up in the back 40 which I walk through shooting at different targets I have arranged to be seen only when approached a certain way ..

For the gentleman who thinks that you should join the Marines or the Army I have found that people teaching these classes are not Rambo types and are very well qualified many are ex special forces or have been long time in law enforcement training !! And those taking these classes are not Rambo types either .. but rather concerned conceal carry holders furthering their training !! The Rambo types are more the people who have been in the service that think they know more then others !!

"Former S/F guys" and "retired LEO range honcho's". WOW!!!

You didn't waste your $$$.
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Old Yesterday, 06:04 PM
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I'm of the opinion that neither IDPA or joining the military will do much in preparing you to effectively use a handgun in the context of civilian self-defense.
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Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM
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I'm of the opinion that neither IDPA or joining the military will do much in preparing you to effectively use a handgun in the context of civilian self-defense.
I would say IDPA would before the military training would ..

my nephew spent 4 years in a war zone and told me he never fired his pistol .. but thousands of rounds through his rifles .. don't see the military training helping at all
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Old Today, 02:54 AM
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Ozark & Smoke

May you never discover the limitations of a stand a deliver response.
You know nothing about me dude. You know nothing about my level of training. You know nothing about my level of experience.

I said nothing about stand and deliver. I said clearing your house alone is a stupid move. I said that if you don't try to clear your house alone in the middle of the night you won't be running Tueller drills in your kitchen at o dark thirty.
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Old Today, 04:35 AM
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I'm of the opinion that neither IDPA or joining the military will do much in preparing you to effectively use a handgun in the context of civilian self-defense.
Somebody check the temperature in hell, I actually agree.

IDPA is a game. Just like IHMSA is a game, and Bullseye is a game. They are useful for developing a particular skillset, if you have the discipline to actually pursue it as such (most don't).

If you think IDPA is somehow representative of defensive shooting--well, when was the last time a target rushed you swinging a tire iron?

As for the military, the pistol isn't even considered a tertiary weapon, and most training amounts to annual familiarization. Besides, their record with handguns has been hit or miss.

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Originally Posted by Whitwabit
For the gentleman who thinks that you should join the Marines or the Army I have found that people teaching these classes are not Rambo types and are very well qualified many are ex special forces or have been long time in law enforcement training !!
"Ex-special forces" and "former Navy SEAL" have to be the two most over-rated sales pitches in the defensive handgunning world. For Chrissake, the NRA touts that it's new CCW insurance program was developed by "former Navy SEALs". How would their experience possibly be relevant?

Ditto for the sheer number of halfwits that claim such experience.

As for the LEO trainers, some are good, some are not so good. Many seem to hail from the gamer set--translating IDPA and PPC strategies into defensive tactics. And some claim experience without actually having time on the job. I've heard some instructors call themselves "retired law enforcement" from having a bare two years of sworn time in small departments.

*shrugs* Best way, near as I can tell, is to look at how they interact with people. If they're constantly hyping themselves, putting their students down, and talking in buzzwords, they're losers. If they can have a conversation where they can form a decent argument, they might have half a clue.
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Old Today, 07:37 AM
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Ditto for the sheer number of halfwits that claim such experience.
Firearms seem to attract 'em--in droves.
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Old Today, 08:06 AM
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Shooting on the move... Doc Holliday 2:20 - 2:32

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Old Today, 08:22 AM
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I'm pretty sure I haven't read an account of a civilian being required to move, shoot and reload to survive a defensive situation. Move and shoot training, when done properly, is advanced training, even for those who carry guns for a living. I won't even begin to engage the thought that move and shoot transitions a defensive situation into an offensive situation. I haven't met a civilian yet, or seen one on the range, who even approaches the static skills necessary to participate in effective move and shoot training. The possibility that a civilian will have to move and shoot in a defensive situation is more remote than the possibility that a civilian will need a reload.

Learn how to work your firearm flawlessly, don't go looking for a fight, and be aware. You'll be fine.

(And for the record, Mister X and I finally have a thought in common. Don't get excited. It's just a narrow one . . .)
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Old Today, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
Nothing funnier than civilians playing Rambo with loaded weapons taught by wanna be Rambo 'range officers".
You want to learn how to shoot on the move join the Marines or Army. It's Free!!!
I agree. Semper Fi!
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Old Today, 10:12 AM
richardw richardw is offline
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I'm pretty sure I haven't read an account of a civilian being required to move, shoot and reload to survive a defensive situation. Move and shoot training, when done properly, is advanced training, even for those who carry guns for a living. I won't even begin to engage the thought that move and shoot transitions a defensive situation into an offensive situation. I haven't met a civilian yet, or seen one on the range, who even approaches the static skills necessary to participate in effective move and shoot training. The possibility that a civilian will have to move and shoot in a defensive situation is more remote than the possibility that a civilian will need a reload.
Well said.

I spent many years in the Corps. I did 4 tours in Nam in the infantry. Before and between tours training was continual. Many hours of move and shoot drills and defensive drills were at the core of that training. That training paid off in combat, but combat is not comparable to civilian self defense situations.

Move and shoot is not a defensive action. It is purely offensive. Defense is best conducted statically, because, as we all hopefully know, accuracy is critical in defeating hostile attacks. Accuracy is much better when you are not moving. The popular notion that the best defense is a good offense is nonsense. It is a contradiction o terms. If you go on the offense, you are no longer defending. Promoting offense action as a defensive method is irresponsible. Civilian self defense is based upon stopping an attack not going on the attack. You stop an attack with good defensive skills. People who teach otherwise are going to get some of their students killed some day.

If someone came into my house I would just wait for them to come to me. Imagine the surprised look on the invaders face when they see a 9mm pointing at them. If they have a gun I would shoot them. I live alone so I don't have to worry about family.

If there were family in the house I would have to move in order to get them together and into a place where I could defend them. Then I would wait for the bad guy to arrive in that place.

The final thing I have to say is that the move and shoot training of civilians will likely not prepare them to be highly effective in their first hostile encounter. Reason: no one is shooting at the trainees. Those who have come under hostile fire understand that. It changes everything in a real fire fight.

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Old Today, 10:54 AM
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I think the ability to shoot on the move with a handgun is very much a needed skill for the armed civilian. Even more so than an LEO and definately more so than a soldier due to the probability of the former being involved in a purely defensive/reactive situation at extremely close ranges vs often times offensive/preemptive for the latter.

Shooting on the move at relatively longer ranges would be considered a more advanced skill, but the vast majority of civilian defense scenarios unfold at point blank ranges. Movement or GOTX(getting off the X), often combined with integrated unarmed skills, would most likely be used to create distance or simply improve angular positional.

Here's one real world example....

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Old Today, 10:56 AM
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My confusion. I guess I'm not sure what people mean when they say "move and shoot."

I understand the English, but I've seen the phrase used different ways.

If "move and shoot" means taking a step right or left to GOTX, drawing while stepping off the X, then shooting, that seems doable if needed for self defense.

If it means engaging in a running gun battle and firing your pistol while in motion, seems like a bad idea.

The way I was taught was "move, then shoot" and "shoot, then move."

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Old Today, 11:02 AM
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My confusion. I guess I'm not sure what people mean when they say "move and shoot."

I understand the English, but I've seen the phrase used different ways.

If "move and shoot" means taking a step right or left to GOTX, drawing while stepping off the X, then shooting, that seems doable if needed for self defense.

If it means engaging in a running gun battle and firing your pistol while in motion, seems like a bad idea.

The way I was taught was "move, then shoot."
The former vs. the latter. There is little to no justification for getting into a running gun battle and such a scenario is outside most any self defense scenario.

Getting off the x to avoid presenting a static target to your attacker can be as simple as moving a step to the left or right or taking advantage of available cover or concealment.
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Old Today, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
Nothing funnier than civilians playing Rambo with loaded weapons taught by wanna be Rambo 'range officers".
You want to learn how to shoot on the move join the Marines or Army. It's Free!!!
Bird hunting with flushing dogs will give you an experience.
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Old Today, 12:28 PM
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My confusion. I guess I'm not sure what people mean when they say "move and shoot."

I understand the English, but I've seen the phrase used different ways.

If "move and shoot" means taking a step right or left to GOTX, drawing while stepping off the X, then shooting, that seems doable if needed for self defense.

If it means engaging in a running gun battle and firing your pistol while in motion, seems like a bad idea.

The way I was taught was "move, then shoot" and "shoot, then move."
It depends. Many gun centric folks envision having a certain amount of distance involved, but that usually isn't the case.

If I'm facing a gun at something like 3-5 yards, I'm going to move dynamically and any shooting I will be doing most likely be done while still in motion, at least initially.

Against a knife or any other contact weapon, I am usually going to want separation providing I'm alone. If they are pursuing which is often the case, I will once again very likely be firing while in movement.

There are no absolutes however as there are many variables to consider. The best way to hash these things out is through Force on Force training incorporating close-quarter scenarios with a full spectrum of possible modes of attack.
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