When seconds count....

[Ziggy2525]

The phrase "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away" (or some variation) gets used quite a bit related to the importance of civilian concealed carry.

The terrorist attacks in London yesterday makes that phrase more real for me. Three dirt bag terrorists armed with knives. No firearms or explosives. Eight minutes from the first emergency call until the terrorists were shot dead. That's an incredibly fast response. Still, 7 dead and 48 wounded in 8 minutes.

The event puts a real price on "only minutes away."

[PPS1980]

First, as always I am sorrowed by the loss of life and injury to innocent people. What could even one good guy with a gun have done if he were allowed to be a Citizen instead of a sheeple subject of the crown? Perhaps Brexit is the reawakening of the British spirit? I hope so.

[Old cop]

I was a cop for 30 years and we busted our collective butts to get to an emergency ASAP but traffic and idiot drivers do slow things down. An armed and trained citizenry is a good thing.

[Protected One]

I agree with all of the above comments, but want to add...this incident also illustrates the need for some EMPTY HAND fighting skills.

[OKFC05]

The psychology of the fake bomb vests reportedly caused people NOT to pile on and subdue the attackers. With everyone just trying to escape, there was no real resistance until men with guns arrived, and in Britain, that is only the police.

[dougb1946]

Originally Posted by OKFC05

The psychology of the fake bomb vests reportedly caused people NOT to pile on and subdue the attackers. With everyone just trying to escape, there was no real resistance until men with guns arrived, and in Britain, that is only the police.

In reality, with the psychology of humans being what it is, even with an armed populace, it will still be the police. What you do when in a crowd is not necessarily what you will do when alone or guarding your house. And you probably don't want to be the one holding a gun when the cops show up primed for an active shooter.

The Bystander Effect Training is meant to compensate for the diffusion of responsibility that people feel while in the presence of others, i.e. the bystander effect. The bystander effect is another name for the theory of diffusion of responsibility; they both present that when situations occur where there are multiple people present, each person tends to feel that since there are others, someone else will likely step up and do what is necessary, thus instigating a perceived lessening of the burden on that particular individual, and that person then doesn’t feel as inclined to do anything about the situation at hand

[NYlakesider]

Originally Posted by Protected One

I agree with all of the above comments, but want to add...this incident also illustrates the need for some EMPTY HAND fighting skills.

At one time I considered myself adequately armed with certain feet/ hands on type skills. Approaching age 72 with certain medical problems my skills are seriously diminished. Certain other skills hopefully will prove adequate if employed, or depending on location available to be used.

[PPS1980]

Originally Posted by dougb1946

In reality, with the psychology of humans being what it is, even with an armed populace, it will still be the police. What you do when in a crowd is not necessarily what you will do when alone or guarding your house. And you probably don't want to be the one holding a gun when the cops show up primed for an active shooter.

Not always. And with a disarmed populous what you have are victims waiting. With an armed populous you have a chance of people taking the fight to the cowards. Look at what happened in the bar in Texas. The shooter was dropped by a Good Guy with a gun in a crowded bar.

[bigggbbruce]

Many years ago I made a trip to NYC for New Years Eve. After several encounters with people doing insane things(one man wedged himself in the subway door trying to delay the last train to make Times Square before midnight.) Finally our small group arrived in Times Square Station.

As we hit the streets a pimp looking dude was making a u-turn a white guy hit his car.. gun drawn.. we hurried out of there..

When we got to Times Square the crowds were heavy and we were standing next to a group of 6 or 7 black youths one of them was in a face to face argument with a white youth with his friend trying to get him to back off.

The blacks starting passing razors, box cutters and such behind their backs.. I was so close I could have grabbed one.

Within an instant arms started flailing and I got hit by an arm with a razor in his hand. I pushed him into the brawl and ran the other way. NOT MY FIGHT. I found the nearest Police officer and quickly told him the deal.. and that it was already to late for the white guys. I didn't go back to see what happened.

Am I responsible for the end result..

[686-380]

Originally Posted by Protected One

I agree with all of the above comments, but want to add...this incident also illustrates the need for some EMPTY HAND fighting skills.

Having your own cardio fitness regimen will make your odds exponentially better. It will also vastly improve your quality of life.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

The phrase "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away" (or some variation) gets used quite a bit related to the importance of civilian concealed carry.

The terrorist attacks in London yesterday makes that phrase more real for me. Three dirt bag terrorists armed with knives. No firearms or explosives. Eight minutes from the first emergency call until the terrorists were shot dead. That's an incredibly fast response. Still, 7 dead and 48 wounded in 8 minutes.

The event puts a real price on "only minutes away."

Forgetting concealed carry for a minute. It might have been stopped sooner if the first cop was actually armed with a gun. Instead he went after them with a club. Brave man, luckily he was only wounded and not killed.

If you're not going to allow citizens to carry at least allow those who are tasked with protecting citizens. Instead everyone is unarmed, cops with guns are rare and don't patrol. Two guys with dull shovels can reek havok

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[Steve K]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but similar situations with knife attacks were taking place in Israel a short time ago. I remember the Chief of Police urging people to arm themselves to combat the attacks. I don't know if that suggestion was heeded or if other circumstances played a larger role, but I haven't heard about knife attacks since then.

[chief38]

Probably the best thing we could all do no matter where in the world or Country we are is to be aware of our surroundings and happenings more than we use to. The world is a different place now and what we never imagined could happen 10 years ago is a BIG game changer now. We MUST learn to pay more attention all the time.

That said, we can not always be out of harms way and there will always be a certain number of unavoidable attacks.

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Originally Posted by bigggbbruce

Am I responsible for the end result..

Of course not. The only thing you did wrong was going to NYC in the first place, and doing that right wouldn't have helped anyone, anyway.

BTW, if anyone thinks that I'm living in a glass house, he or she has the right attitude, but is a little off on the details. Even the post-event legal climate may not be as bad as it's generally imagined to be.

[TeaDub]

As to London, that was a pretty good response time given their "partial" arming of their Police. The OP is correct tho. Eight minutes is a lifetime under those circumstances.

My point on the subject is do we really want INSTANT response from law enforcement? That says one of two things: Either an Officer just happened to be at the right place at the right time (awesome) OR we have police/military literally on every street corner at all times (very bad IMO).

[Old cop]

The very few times I happened to be right there I made some good arrests, sometimes catching the bad guy in the act. One time I was at dinner at a place right behind a Goodyear store being held up. Caught the guy coming out the door gun & cash in hand. Fortunately he dropped everything when he saw my .38 pointing right at him. Gift wrapped him for detectives who closed several armed robberies on that guy.

[ABPOS]

You can't know who is going to do what. And 1 guy can make a difference. A guy I went to high school with was on the news about 10 years ago. He was in the bank when an armed dude tried to rob the bank. Well the dude I know went off on him, disarmed the guy and stopped the situation. He was not armed. He was not an Athlete in High School. But he wasn't a pencil pusher. An Electrician by trade. He made a difference, without even having a gun. I don't think he is even Ex military. I think he was just pissed enough that it was happening, and had a good amount of physical strength. And for some reason was motivated past the point of being afraid for his life to do something.

I'm not saying I'd be that bold or not be that bold. Or successful. What I'm saying is, you don't know who is capable of what. There are plenty of off duty, retired police in public. There are ex military and current military in public. There are civilians that somehow have enough gonads to do what is necessary. Don't count them out.

As far as what happens when the police do actually show up, that depends on the circumstance and timing.

I for one would have a hard time letting rounds fly in a big crowd without the concern of hitting an innocent bystander.

I was trying to find the article on that from google, but I'm not having much luck. Just so you know I wasn't making it up..... But, at this point it's an unconfirmed story. But I'm sure there are more like that one.

Originally Posted by dougb1946

In reality, with the psychology of humans being what it is, even with an armed populace, it will still be the police. What you do when in a crowd is not necessarily what you will do when alone or guarding your house. And you probably don't want to be the one holding a gun when the cops show up primed for an active shooter.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by chief38

Probably the best thing we could all do no matter where in the world or Country we are is to be aware of our surroundings and happenings more than we use to. The world is a different place now and what we never imagined could happen 10 years ago is a BIG game changer now. We MUST learn to pay more attention all the time.

That said, we can not always be out of harms way and there will always be a certain number of unavoidable attacks.

Exactly.

I think there is a tendency to oversimplify.

Not being armed didn't turn all those Londoners into victims waiting to be slaughtered, just like having the possibility to carry doesn't turn us all into anti-terrorist fighters.

A lot of people in London fought back against the knife-wielding terrorists successfully, just like knife and vehicle and other attacks still happen and kill people in countries with much more heavily armed populations, like Israel.

A gun brings another tool to the situation that gives you options you won't have otherwise. Not more, not less. Whether you'll be able to make good use of your gun depends on a lot of things, some of which may be out of your control.

[Old cop]

I agree that empty handed fighting skills are important and at one time I was profecient. Time has taken its toll and at 70 I walk w/a cane and move slower than a glacier.

[dwpmusic]

Originally Posted by Old cop

I agree that empty handed fighting skills are important and at one time I was profecient. Time has taken its toll and at 70 I walk w/a cane and move slower than a glacier.

Haven't gotten to the cane yet, thank God, but I can identify with what you say.

[Inusuit]

My cane is my tool of choice in places that restrict my right to carry a firearm. Airports, post offices, and such. I have some stick training in the martial arts and the heavy hardwood cane is better than empty hands. But these random terrorist events have led me to carry my Glock and an extra magazine in addition to my pocket .380. I figure Wyoming is probably low on the target list - lots of armed citizens - but this stuff can happen anywhere.

[walkin' trails]

Between news clips I've seen and an article on Drudge, it appeared that the terrorists were cutting or stabbing at the throats areas of the victim. Such attacks can come from any angle. I'm not going to say that in a crowded mall or similar surroundings with distractions from my kids I've been any more situationally aware than the London victims. I do tend to pick up on disturbances in the crowd, however. Having a segment of the population that is armed, even off duty cops, is more of a benefit than a liability. The Minnesota mall stabbing rampage a while back illustrates this - and off duty cop and firearms instructor with a Glock 19 stopped the mayhem. I also seem to recall reading a few years back that some municipalities, may the whole U.K. had decided that pocket knives were uncivilized and a danger, and passed laws against carrying them. Heinlein's famous quote, "an armed society is a polite society," is totally relevant today.


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[Protected One]

Originally Posted by walkin' trails

I also seem to recall reading a few years back that some municipalities, may the whole U.K. had decided that pocket knives were uncivilized and a danger, and passed laws against carrying them.

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Yes. They ran a champagne with the slogan "Save a life...turn in your knife!"

[cmort666]

The painfully obvious answer is that people are going to have to act on their own in the absence of police.

They shouldn't have been throwing chairs.

They should have been beating those animals to death with them.

The murderers should have been dead when the police got there.

A restaurant full of customers should have overwhelmed them like the Zulus obliterated the British at Isandlhwana. I guarantee you there's a glass and a knife on every table. Three against fifty? I like those odds. I like them better than taking it in the back.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by cmort666

The painfully obvious answer is that people are going to have to act on their own in the absence of police.

They shouldn't have been throwing chairs.

They should have been beating those animals to death with them.

The murderers should have been dead when the police got there.

A restaurant full of customers should have overwhelmed them like the Zulus obliterated the British at Isandlhwana. I guarantee you there's a glass and a knife on every table. Three against fifty? I like those odds. I like them better than taking it in the back.

People were afraid because those guys were wearing explosive vests, which later turned out to be fake but no one knew that at the moment

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[cmort666]

Originally Posted by Old cop

I agree that empty handed fighting skills are important and at one time I was profecient. Time has taken its toll and at 70 I walk w/a cane and move slower than a glacier.

In a bar or restaurant, there are available weapons literally as far as the eye can see.

I'm kind of baffled; Brits will "glass" somebody over a football game but NOT when somebody is trying to stab them to death???

[TomkinsSP]

It was a CCW permitted civillian who dropped the knife weilding attacker in the St Clod MN shopping mall. Before anyone died IIRC.

And if you drop a loonie with a knife or gun. Reholster yours so you aren't standing there gun in hand when LEOs show up.

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by Arik

People were afraid because those guys were wearing explosive vests, which later turned out to be fake but no one knew that at the moment

As I said to somebody else on another forum a few minutes ago: "Why would somebody use a knife when they're wearing a bomb vest?" That makes about as much sense as the Enola Gay just strafing Hiroshima with its 20mm tail gun.

And what if it WAS real? Is getting stabbed LESS painful than getting blown up? The odds are that somebody's too busying stabbing to blow up... especially when I've just plunged a steak knife into his aorta.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by cmort666

As I said to somebody else on another forum a few minutes ago: "Why would somebody use a knife when they're wearing a bomb vest?" That makes about as much sense as the Enola Gay just strafing Hiroshima with its 20mm tail gun.

And what if it WAS real? Is getting stabbed LESS painful than getting blown up? The odds are that somebody's too busying stabbing to blow up... especially when I've just plunged a steak knife into his aorta.

It makes sense to those who do it. MAYBE they're waiting for lots of cops to show up to detonate and take out law enforcement? MAYBE they first want to do some stabbing and the vest is for last resort when they get surrounded. MAYBE they are a distraction for something else to happen somewhere else. The sight of explosives will bring lots of law enforcement and bomb squad, then another group attacks somewhere else with actual bombs. Lots of reasons

No getting stabbed is not less painful but if they were within throwing distance then they're obviously NOT getting stabbed and possibly far enough away from the blast. When you see a bomb you typically don't run towards it

Don't have to be too busy to blow up. A simple switch takes a fraction of a second to activate. Maybe it's already activated like a Deadman switch

And another thing, people in that moment aren't sitting there Monday morning quarterbacking the situation. Guys with bomb vest are trying to stab everyone so let me take a moment and ponder why, does it makes sense and if they're too busy to blow up

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[cmort666]

Originally Posted by Arik

It makes sense to those who do it. MAYBE they're waiting for lots of cops to show up to detonate and take out law enforcement? MAYBE they first want to do some stabbing and the vest is for last resort when they get surrounded. MAYBE they are a distraction for something else to happen somewhere else. The sight of explosives will bring lots of law enforcement and bomb squad, then another group attacks somewhere else with actual bombs. Lots of reasons

No getting stabbed is not less painful but if they were within throwing distance then they're obviously NOT getting stabbed and possibly far enough away from the blast. When you see a bomb you typically don't run towards it

Don't have to be too busy to blow up. A simple switch takes a fraction of a second to activate. Maybe it's already activated like a Deadman switch

And another thing, people in that moment aren't sitting there Monday morning quarterbacking the situation. Guys with bomb vest are trying to stab everyone so let me take a moment and ponder why, does it makes sense and if they're too busy to blow up

You'd better be "quarterbacking what's going on right in front of you.

They're not being killed when aren't any "bomb vests" real or otherwise.

If they haven't blown themselves up, that means YOU have an opportunity to help them shuffle off this mortal coil.

Giving them complete freedom of action doesn't seem to be doing much to discourage them. I'm not sure how anyone would think it would.

[Arik]

Ok whatever. I'd love to see you do all that in a few seconds while under attack

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[vytoland]

the violence will cease when humans live with respect and discipline and eliminate greed and arrogance.....

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by Arik

Ok whatever. I'd love to see you do all that in a few seconds while under attack

I might kill one or more of them. I might die.

I won't die on my knees.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by cmort666

I might kill one or more of them. I might die.

I won't die on my knees.

Aha

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[PPS1980]

Originally Posted by cmort666

The painfully obvious answer is that people are going to have to act on their own in the absence of police.

They shouldn't have been throwing chairs.

They should have been beating those animals to death with them.

The murderers should have been dead when the police got there.

A restaurant full of customers should have overwhelmed them like the Zulus obliterated the British at Isandlhwana. I guarantee you there's a glass and a knife on every table. Three against fifty? I like those odds. I like them better than taking it in the back.

Should is the operative word in your post. We are talking about sheeple who have been conditioned for decades to defer, be passive, submit, and rely on the government to meet their needs and protect them.

It's all about mindset and conditioning. When children have been told all their life that "It doesn't matter who started the fight if you defended yourself you are equally guilty." which is what they are told in schools all through the western world today, instead of what we were told as kids "I don't ever want to hear you started a fight, but by G*d I expect you to finish it." you get the conditioned response of passivity, flight, and waiting in place for rescue.

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by PPS1980

Should is the operative word in your post. We are talking about sheeple who have been conditioned for decades to defer, be passive, submit, and rely on the government to meet their needs and protect them.

It's all about mindset and conditioning. When children have been told all their life that "It doesn't matter who started the fight if you defended yourself you are equally guilty." which is what they are told in schools all through the western world today, instead of what we were told as kids "I don't ever want to hear you started a fight, but by G*d I expect you to finish it." you get the conditioned response of passivity, flight, and waiting in place for rescue.

Children are being raised to be sheep to the slaughter.

In an earlier age, this would be considered genocide.

Some people make the Eloi look like Comanches.

[686-380]

I never experienced a deadly encounter. I think I would be able to rise to the occasion but won't know until it happens. Rather than criticize the victims, I mourn for them.

I will do my best to maintain my physical fitness and moderate firearms proficiency training. It is unlikely that my Bodyguard .380 will decimate a group of evil doers but might slow them down.

[BAM-BAM]

Originally Posted by cmort666

You'd better be "quarterbacking what's going on right in front of you.

They're not being killed when aren't any "bomb vests" real or otherwise.

If they haven't blown themselves up, that means YOU have an opportunity to help them shuffle off this mortal coil.

Giving them complete freedom of action doesn't seem to be doing much to discourage them. I'm not sure how anyone would think it would.

Or you're trying to get your family out of Dodge before he/they blow themselves up.........

Let's take a few minutes (12:57-2:40) and analyze it and post our (several) response(s)............

Oh wait....... we don't have a few minutes.................

[PPS1980]

Originally Posted by 686-380

I never experienced a deadly encounter. I think I would be able to rise to the occasion but won't know until it happens. Rather than criticize the victims, I mourn for them.

I will do my best to maintain my physical fitness and moderate firearms proficiency training. It is unlikely that my Bodyguard .380 will decimate a group of evil doers but might slow them down.

I understand your perspective, however I believe that we have become too PC and therefore unable to do actual after-action reviews of the performance and behavior of those involved ( particularly if they died). I mourn their loss, grieve at the injuries, and at the same time want us to learn from their behavior.

[bigggbbruce]

Originally Posted by Inusuit

My cane is my tool of choice in places that restrict my right to carry a firearm. Airports, post offices, and such. I have some stick training in the martial arts and the heavy hardwood cane is better than empty hands.

Good friend recently passed away.. He was disabled in an accident. Needed a cane to walk. He had martial arts skills.

One day a couple of punks were harassing him, he laid that cane on one punks cheek... SQUEAL.,. was all I heard, didn't see the cane hardly move... Handy tool for sure...

[white cloud]

Originally Posted by Arik

Forgetting concealed carry for a minute. It might have been stopped sooner if the first cop was actually armed with a gun. Instead he went after them with a club. Brave man, luckily he was only wounded and not killed.

If you're not going to allow citizens to carry at least allow those who are tasked with protecting citizens. Instead everyone is unarmed, cops with guns are rare and don't patrol. Two guys with dull shovels can reek havok

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I am probably going to start the proverbial @#^& storm by saying this but IMHO, the government responsible for deploying unarmed police in the current environment needs to be replaced.

I recently attended a graduation at GeorgeTown University near DC. I could not detect one armed campus security policeman. My wife remarked that the graduation was a very soft target. I think that was very irresponsible.

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

Or you're trying to get your family out of Dodge before he/they blow themselves up.........

Let's take a few minutes (12:57-2:40) and analyze it and post our (several) response(s)............

Oh wait....... we don't have a few minutes.................

I don't have a family. I don't have an excuse to let these animals run wild.

[TomkinsSP]

Originally Posted by Inusuit

My cane is my tool of choice in places that restrict my right to carry a firearm. Airports, post offices, and such. I have some stick training in the martial arts and the heavy hardwood cane is better than empty hands. But these random terrorist events have led me to carry my Glock and an extra magazine in addition to my pocket .380. I figure Wyoming is probably low on the target list - lots of armed citizens - but this stuff can happen anywhere.

Ten years ago I was in the security line at Newark International Airport. TSA confiscated some lady's nail clippers then let a senior citizen pass through with a shillelagh. ;-)

[vytoland]

Originally Posted by TomkinsSP

Ten years ago I was in the security line at Newark International Airport. TSA confiscated some lady's nail clippers then let a senior citizen pass through with a shillelagh. ;-)

AMOEBAE sometimes get confused.....

[Donn]

Originally Posted by Old cop

I was a cop for 30 years and we busted our collective butts to get to an emergency ASAP but traffic and idiot drivers do slow things down. An armed and trained citizenry is a good thing.

So did I when I was in the job.
All the guys I served were on their toes and ready to go when the bell rang. But like OC said, things happen.

[Absalom]

Quite frankly, when the you-know-what hits the fan, that's when you will find out what you will do.

Some of the tough-talking guys here will freeze or cower or run, and some of the supposedly "sheep conditioned to be victims" will end up heroes and fight.

The only ones I would believe will do as they say are veterans or cops who have been shot at and know how they'll react under deadly attack.

Everybody else is just whistling in the dark, hoping they'll be brave. Nothing wrong with that, but don't judge others ahead of time.

[Steve K]

Totally agree!

[jimmyj]

Originally Posted by OKFC05

The psychology of the fake bomb vests reportedly caused people NOT to pile on and subdue the attackers. With everyone just trying to escape, there was no real resistance until men with guns arrived, and in Britain, that is only the police.

Does the English Cops now carry firearms, or just "Special Squads" ?

[BAM-BAM]

Originally Posted by jimmyj

Does the English Cops now carry firearms, or just "Special Squads" ?

Still only some........ but they seem to be growing in number.

Still see pictures of unarmed (unless concealed ) uniformed officers

Whats with the black masked squads?????? Are they SAS or Police?

[PPS1980]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

Still only some........ but they seem to be growing in number.

Still see pictures of unarmed (unless concealed ) uniformed officers

Whats with the black masked squads?????? Are they SAS or Police?

Local beat cops don't carry generally. Community Policing is what they call it. <50% of all police in the UK are armed based on various reports, but that % is increasing by those same reports.

The Balaclava wearing police are, theoretically, police from a special response unit.