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  #101  
Old 06-03-2017, 09:23 PM
exdetsgt exdetsgt is offline
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I've got a torn rotator cuff (left shoulder) and an arthritic thumb (left hand) and shoot a handgun right handed. You may, at this point, think "what's the problem?" I was trained to shoot Glocks two-handed and I can no longer raise my left arm shoulder height without considerable shaking - not conducive to accurate shooting. At the LGS they suggested I learn to shoot one-handed and showed me a Bersa Thunder .380. Looks like a Walther PPK clone. It's a blowback with the 3 1/2" barrel fixed to the alloy frame and is quite light. Anyway, I took their advice, bought the gun, and after several range sessions have become as good as I ever was with a Glock shooting with both hands. As for the Bersa, it's dependable and accurate and has very little recoil.

Now, what is point shooting, or am I already doing it?
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  #102  
Old 06-03-2017, 11:13 PM
ruger 22 ruger 22 is offline
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Richardw, I was shot by a 22 lr. The shell was a Remington target low velocity solid lead load. The bullet entered under my left shoulder and wound up high in my neck facing the opposite direction of its entry. I was knocked off my feet and stunned for a few seconds trying to figure our what happened. I think your choice is just fine! My advice is to use solids as they will penetrate deeply and bounce around and cause a lot more damage and knock-down than hollow points. The best of luck to you.

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  #103  
Old 06-04-2017, 05:46 PM
bilker bilker is offline
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Red face change edc

I had an opportunity to shoot a keltec pmr30 .22 mag. it was a feather weight and held 30 rounds. if I could find one in the peoples republik of Kalifornia I think it would be my edc. have any tried one?
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  #104  
Old 06-06-2017, 12:46 PM
Marshal tom Marshal tom is offline
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Many good comments above. I would seriously consider a .22 Mag.
Revolver like the LCR for your purposes. They do have a stiff Trigger pull on purpose for positive ignition but that can be safely lightened a bit. The .22 Mag is a nasty little round. As stated above, revolver over semi auto for .22 anything is a wise choice for reliability. Best of luck.
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  #105  
Old 06-06-2017, 02:28 PM
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If you can hit what you aim at you are in pretty good shape no matter the caliber.

Go for it.
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  #106  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:09 AM
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I am not a doctor, nor do I have any stock in pharmaceutical companies. I have, however, suffered from arthritis and tendonitis after 20+ years of climbing around on tanks. My doctor prescribed various antiinflammatories, including a bunch that got banned for killing people. Finally, he prescribed Mobic®, generic is Meloxicam. If it didn't work, he was going to give me a handicapped spot placard authorization. Now, I get up every work day, put on my body armor, strap on my duty belt, and go to work. I get between 6500 and 18,000 steps in a shift. I'll be 65 next month and don't plan to retire for a couple of years. I just don't chase people on foot anymore. 😎

Meloxicam doesn't work for everyone. It didn't help my brother at all. However, it means my cane rides in the back of my Jeep for hiking trips.

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  #107  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exdetsgt View Post
I've got a torn rotator cuff (left shoulder) and an arthritic thumb (left hand) and shoot a handgun right handed. You may, at this point, think "what's the problem?" I was trained to shoot Glocks two-handed and I can no longer raise my left arm shoulder height without considerable shaking - not conducive to accurate shooting. At the LGS they suggested I learn to shoot one-handed and showed me a Bersa Thunder .380. Looks like a Walther PPK clone. It's a blowback with the 3 1/2" barrel fixed to the alloy frame and is quite light. Anyway, I took their advice, bought the gun, and after several range sessions have become as good as I ever was with a Glock shooting with both hands. As for the Bersa, it's dependable and accurate and has very little recoil.

Now, what is point shooting, or am I already doing it?
Not using your sights. I would have imagined that you have used it on occasion. You just get better at it with practice. I use point shooting for 5 yards, front sight only for 10 yards, and both sights after 15 yards.
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  #108  
Old 06-18-2017, 04:15 PM
Kentucky Shooter Kentucky Shooter is offline
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Originally Posted by richardw View Post
At 75 my arthritis in both hands is getting worse. My severely damaged and unrepairable right rotator cuff is diminishing my right arm strength in a troubling way. I carry a Ruger Lc9s because it is light and my rotator cuff can handle the weight without my arm becoming unstable.

I practice shooting two days a week with my Ruger. I shoot about 50 rounds each time to assure I can hit my selected target. But lately I have been having increased pain in my right hand. It has a deteriorating base thumb knuckle just like my left hand did some years ago. Today, I cannot get a reliable, steady grip on a gun with my left hand. My right thumb is headed in that direction. No way to stop it. It just is a fact,of old age.

Today my arthritis/hand specialist who carries a .40 and knows I carry and shoot regularly advised me to stop the use of my 9mm. He says the recoil is putting pressure on the base thumb joint, and all that is doing is aggravating the arthritis causing more deterioration to the joint. He suggested going to .380 at maximum or just stopping target shooting. But I decided to take a different course.

A couple months ago I bought a M&P 22 Compact. While I took it to the range every week I found a Bushnell 22 caliber bullet trap at a gun show for $30.00. I set it up in my basement with a good exhaust fan in a window. Now I shoot it in the basement. Because of its nearly non existent recoil it does not irritate my thumb. I have gotten more accurate with it than with my Lc9s. Generally I shoot a 22LR group of five rounds into a 1.5 inch cluster at 25 feet. I can do that in about four seconds. So that started me thinking.

I had done some research on the self defense lethality of the 22LR from a handgun. Turns out it is more lethal than most people think. Theo reason is the ability to lshoot a 1.5 inch group
into a vital spot of the body aa like the thorax or head, and do it in less than five seconds.

So I have decided to preserve the thumb and adopt the 22 Compact for EDC. My research also indicated that the best ammo was the CCI Mini Mag HP. At brassfetcher.com there is a good test of 22LR HP expansion. The Mini Mag was second only to a Winchester Super X HP. Problem was that there are many reported incidents of failures of the Winchester rounds and none of the CCI Mini Mag HPs. So I have a new EDC combo. The 22C and Mini Mags. It is a gun my impaired rotator cuff can accommodate and my thumb can work with. Life moves on but not always the way envisioned it. So keeping highly precise accuracy under duress is my new challenge.

You have to do what works for you and there are no bad guys who are gonna shrug off a hailstorm of .22LR in a vital place, preferably between the eyes.

Dont let any well-meaning naysayers who say dont use the .22 for this reason or that get you down. The lowly .22LR has been protecting many a home and ranch/farm much longer than anyone reading this has been around. Besides, I wouldnt want to mess with a former Marine no matter what he was carrying.

My only advice is for your home defense or carry piece is to load up with rimfire ammo known for high dependability such as CCI Minimags or Stingers. When I need to carry a .22, CCI is my go-to brand.

Best of luck and thank you so much for your service to our country. I'm praying for your health to keep you in the game until you reach 100 at least.

Last edited by Kentucky Shooter; 06-18-2017 at 04:30 PM.
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  #109  
Old 06-18-2017, 04:44 PM
richardw richardw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentucky Shooter View Post
You have to do what works for you and there are no bad guys who are gonna shrug off a hailstorm of .22LR in a vital place, preferably between the eyes.

Dont let any well-meaning naysayers who say dont use the .22 for this reason or that get you down. The lowly .22LR has been protecting many a home and ranch/farm much longer than anyone reading this has been around.

My only advice is for your home defense or carry piece is to load up with rimfire ammo known for high dependability such as CCI Minimags or Stingers. When I need to carry a .22, CCI is my go-to brand.

Best of luck and thank you so much for your service to our country. I'm praying for your health to keep you in the game until you reach 100 at least.
Thanks Kentucky Shooter.

Believe me, nay sayes will never get me down. If a platoon of charging NVA with fixed bayonets could not get me down, there is no way words will ever do it.

As for CCI, it is the only ammo I use. I load Mini Mag HP. After many hours of researching the topic of which ammo I should use, I saw that Mini Mag HP was the most likely to expand out of a 3.5 inch barrel. When it does not expand it acts like RN and penetrates deeper. Today I put round number 1300 through my 22 Compact with never a failure to feed, fire, or eject. It's reliable.

As for target area, I practice for center mass on the breast bone and what I call the the deadly triangle. That triangle is a space that runs along the occipital skull bone and triangulates on both sides down to the bridge of the nose, a sure incapacitation zone. It is a tight shot but with 22 it is really not so difficult to put three rounds there very quickly.

Last edited by richardw; 06-18-2017 at 10:14 PM.
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  #110  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:10 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is online now
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Have you seen the PM-30 22 Magnum pistol? I saw that thing fired at an indoor match and I was in awe. Holy cow it's loud and formidable.

Have you considered some solids in the mix as well? I am just a little hesitant on the HP in .22 LR.
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  #111  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:09 PM
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Have you seen the PM-30 22 Magnum pistol? I saw that thing fired at an indoor match and I was in awe. Holy cow it's loud and formidable.

Have you considered some solids in the mix as well? I am just a little hesitant on the HP in .22 LR.
I did try the PM30. Nice gun, but the ballistics are not that much better than the 22 LR at close range, where it's barrel length gives it slight edge. I found that it was too long for concealed carry with a grip that I did not like. I love the 22 Compact ergonomics.

I did a mountain of research into best 22 ammo for SD. Selected Mini Mag HP based on tests that showed it was one of two HP loads that would expand out of a 3.5 inch barrel. The other was Winchester Super X power point. The latter dId not mix well with my 22 Compact. Too many failures while no failures with the Mini Mag.

If the Mini Mag HP fails to expand it is a ball round and it is likely to tumble and reverse to base forward after penetrationmif three inches. Effect is like a HP when it comes to permanent wound cavity.

While I was not a fan of mixing loads in a magazine in the case of 22 I do it. I stagger Mini Mag HPnwith RN. The first round out is HP.

I get a succession of expansion and penetration that way. Neither is going to penetrate through the head or the thoracic cavity, but both will just bounce around the area thay are fired into and not exit the body. It is like shooting an immersion blender into someone. It just grinds up the innards.

The bottom line of using a mouse gun for SD is accuracy more than ballistics. Being very analytic by nature I came to a well researched conclusion. A well placed round from a 22 is more effective than a poorly placed round from a 45. There was a time when I could deliver a headshot from a M1911 at 10 yards. Age, arthritis, and a delapidated strong side rotator cuff has changed all that. Now I have rely on accuracy more than power. I am confident in my decision.

I hope I never get to put that decision to the test, but should I have to I am confident this old Marine will do what he was taught; kill the enemy. I just will do it with less power than I had back in the days of my prime. Semper Fi.
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  #112  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:02 AM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is online now
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I was not particularly advocating the PM-30. I just figured you might have tried it in your search. You have very obviously done your homework on the rounds and expansion. Kind of neat to hear about the process. Did you try the Remington Viper and Yellow jacket? I haven't been seriously .22 shopping in a long while. My Mark2 loves those rounds though. Very accurate.
I have a "fidget spinner" chambered in .22 Short made by NAA. I love shooting it. It makes me smile. I make believe I am good enough to make face shots at 7 yards. Sometimes I practice quite a bit with it. I generally carry the CCI 27 grain hollowpoints and practice with whatever I can find. Other than a cranio ocular cavity shot, I'm not going to have a great deal of penetration.
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  #113  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
I was not particularly advocating the PM-30. I just figured you might have tried it in your search. You have very obviously done your homework on the rounds and expansion. Kind of neat to hear about the process. Did you try the Remington Viper and Yellow jacket? I haven't been seriously .22 shopping in a long while. My Mark2 loves those rounds though. Very accurate.
I have a "fidget spinner" chambered in .22 Short made by NAA. I love shooting it. It makes me smile. I make believe I am good enough to make face shots at 7 yards. Sometimes I practice quite a bit with it. I generally carry the CCI 27 grain hollowpoints and practice with whatever I can find. Other than a cranio ocular cavity shot, I'm not going to have a great deal of penetration.
I did not try either round you mention. I selected the ammo to try based upon numerous ballistic, wetpack, and other barrier tests done by others. Most of them are on YouTube. I am discriminating enough to sort the authoritative testers from the phonies. One test was that done by brassfetcher.com. They tested numerous HP rounds to see which expanded from a 3.5 inch barrel in ballistic gel. Those that showed no sign of expansion were bumped from the second phase test. In the second phase those rounds that showed some expansion were further tested. That second round showed the CCI Mini Mag HP and Winchester Super X PLus HP properly expanded, with the Winchester round rated best.

I shot 100 round each of the CCI and Winchester ammo. I had three failures to eject with the Winchester. And none with the CCI. I decided to put the Mini Mag HPs to an extended test. After shooting 500 rounds without a hiccup I adopted it. Since then I have put, as of yesterday, 1300 rounds through my 22 Compact without a failure of any kind.

I also researched 22LR effectiveness based upon medical and coroner reports. The bullet rarely exits the body. It tends to penetrate and as soon as it hits bone begin to bounce around and become inverted to somewhere between 90 and 180 degrees. That increase its incapacitation and lethality ability. Oddly they rarely expand but they do enormous damage in spite of that because of the inversion and bouncing.

I also researched 22LR RN performance compared to HP. Generally the RN achieves deeper penetration than an expanded HP. However an unexpended HP acts like a RN in terms of penetration. So I stick with HP since I would get the benefit of expansion when conditions are right and the penetration of RN when there is no expansion.

FinLly, I have two target area. They are the breast bone and what I call the deadly triangle, which is a triangle that runs across the occipital skull then triangulated down to the bridge of the nose. Both are very small targets, but with the accuracy achievable through a series of shots they are real kill zones.
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  #114  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:04 PM
exdetsgt exdetsgt is offline
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You might want to consider a Bersa Thunder in .22lr.
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  #115  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:12 PM
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You might want to consider a Bersa Thunder in .22lr.
Bersa makes a line of highly reliable guns in several calibers. However, I love the ergonomics of the 22 Compact. It just fits my hand like it was made to be it. The Bersa did not. For me it came down to the Ruger SR 22 and the M&P 22 compact. After renting And putting 100 rounds through each I bought the 22 Compact. No regrets. I love this gun.
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  #116  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:51 PM
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Heck, I'm lookin' at the big seven oh, I'm chubby, and sometimes my back really hurts. I decided to not carry my EDC snubby K frame recently because I wanted less "pressure" on my belt so I went to grab my CS-9 and grabbed a Walter P-22 first. I thought to myself, "Fine, ten rounds in a reliable gun that is lightweight and flat, make it so!"

I didn't for one moment concern myself that it was a .22. I stoked it with CCI Stingers and off I went. I did find the CS-9 and switched to it but when I want to go lightweight, and sometimes in the summer you jus' gotta! - the Walther P-22 is comin' back out!!!
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:58 PM
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I've killed an awful lot of stuff with a .22LR.. I don't think a BG getting hit with a hail storm of .22 is gonna want to play very long.
I have often thought the same thing, but I was thinking more about the lightweight PMR 30, and 30 rounds of 22 WMR buzzing around. Longer barrel than I would prefer for concealment, but very lightweight, even loaded. My Ruger SR22 has been very dependable as well, and much easier to conceal. Although I have carried neither, so far, I can't say that I havent considered them.
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Old Yesterday, 10:38 PM
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Enjoyed reading this thread and appreciated the respect given the original poster and the lack of "caliber flaming" that you could expect in other sites. While thankfully still able to handle service caliber pistols well, there are times the closet gun at hand or in my pocket is a .22, and agree where you put the bullets is still the key.
During my tour in Iraq I saw some one hit multiple times with 7.62 NATO and stay upright and ask repeatedly why were we shooting him. Even heavy rifle calibers fail at times. Use what you can handle competently and continue to march!
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Old Today, 08:18 AM
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I had to shoot a very large beaver in a drainage ditch recently. He had caused a lot of damage. Shot him at 30 ft with a 22 lr. DRT, always impressed with the effectivenes of a 22. I carry a glock 42 myself. Very soft shooting, easy on my hands.
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Old Today, 09:09 AM
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I posted on page 1....... but have followed the thread.

NO handgun round will immediately stop an aggressor unless you hit the CNS.........so.....

To me the bottom line comes down to;

I'd rather my wife have her M&P .22 Compact ''handy" than know that her 2" Model 10 is at home.

I don't see her fighting off a street gang or a horde of jihadists by herself..........so 5-10 rounds of CCI should suffice to discourage an aggressor

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Old Today, 09:43 AM
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I'm a huge fan of Bill Jordan and his book but I don't think .22 WMR has really lived up to his expectations, at least not in a snubby. Out of a 6" barrel, or a rifle sure, but in a 2" barrel the performance is hardly better than .22 LR. If I wanted a step up in power from .22 but little recoil I'd look into .32 S&W Long.

My source: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results
S&W built the Model 650 and 651 (fixed and adjustable sights) in .22 Magnum Rim Fire. 3" barrels and very hard to find.

Geoff
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Old Today, 10:49 AM
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S&W built the Model 650 and 651 (fixed and adjustable sights) in .22 Magnum Rim Fire. 3" barrels and very hard to find.

Geoff
Who has arthritis in the family and his hands...sigh.
Sorry to hear about your arthritis. The 650/651 are neat little revolvers. While certainly better ballistically, today I'd still take a .22 LR over either of them, now that the drought is over I know I would practice more with the cheaper ammunition.

One of my favorite revolvers is my pre-Model 43 with a 3.5" barrel, so much fun to shoot and weighs under a pound loaded. If limited by disability I would not hesitate to carry that (or maybe better yet, an 8 shot 317 or LCRx).
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Old Today, 11:00 AM
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I just had a chance to handle a S&W 43C at a LGS.

Neat little gun. 8 shots, centennial style with no hammer. Plus it has no lock.

Also, the 351C is the same thing in 22 mag. 7 shots and also no lock.

Both looked like great carry pieces for someone who wants a 22.
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