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  #101  
Old 06-03-2017, 09:23 PM
exdetsgt exdetsgt is offline
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Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread)  
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I've got a torn rotator cuff (left shoulder) and an arthritic thumb (left hand) and shoot a handgun right handed. You may, at this point, think "what's the problem?" I was trained to shoot Glocks two-handed and I can no longer raise my left arm shoulder height without considerable shaking - not conducive to accurate shooting. At the LGS they suggested I learn to shoot one-handed and showed me a Bersa Thunder .380. Looks like a Walther PPK clone. It's a blowback with the 3 1/2" barrel fixed to the alloy frame and is quite light. Anyway, I took their advice, bought the gun, and after several range sessions have become as good as I ever was with a Glock shooting with both hands. As for the Bersa, it's dependable and accurate and has very little recoil.

Now, what is point shooting, or am I already doing it?
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  #102  
Old 06-03-2017, 11:13 PM
ruger 22 ruger 22 is offline
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Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread)  
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Richardw, I was shot by a 22 lr. The shell was a Remington target low velocity solid lead load. The bullet entered under my left shoulder and wound up high in my neck facing the opposite direction of its entry. I was knocked off my feet and stunned for a few seconds trying to figure our what happened. I think your choice is just fine! My advice is to use solids as they will penetrate deeply and bounce around and cause a lot more damage and knock-down than hollow points. The best of luck to you.

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  #103  
Old 06-04-2017, 05:46 PM
bilker bilker is offline
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Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread)  
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Red face change edc

I had an opportunity to shoot a keltec pmr30 .22 mag. it was a feather weight and held 30 rounds. if I could find one in the peoples republik of Kalifornia I think it would be my edc. have any tried one?
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  #104  
Old 06-06-2017, 12:46 PM
Marshal tom Marshal tom is offline
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Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread) Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread)  
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Many good comments above. I would seriously consider a .22 Mag.
Revolver like the LCR for your purposes. They do have a stiff Trigger pull on purpose for positive ignition but that can be safely lightened a bit. The .22 Mag is a nasty little round. As stated above, revolver over semi auto for .22 anything is a wise choice for reliability. Best of luck.
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  #105  
Old 06-06-2017, 02:28 PM
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If you can hit what you aim at you are in pretty good shape no matter the caliber.

Go for it.
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  #106  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:09 AM
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I am not a doctor, nor do I have any stock in pharmaceutical companies. I have, however, suffered from arthritis and tendonitis after 20+ years of climbing around on tanks. My doctor prescribed various antiinflammatories, including a bunch that got banned for killing people. Finally, he prescribed Mobic®, generic is Meloxicam. If it didn't work, he was going to give me a handicapped spot placard authorization. Now, I get up every work day, put on my body armor, strap on my duty belt, and go to work. I get between 6500 and 18,000 steps in a shift. I'll be 65 next month and don't plan to retire for a couple of years. I just don't chase people on foot anymore. 😎

Meloxicam doesn't work for everyone. It didn't help my brother at all. However, it means my cane rides in the back of my Jeep for hiking trips.

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  #107  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exdetsgt View Post
I've got a torn rotator cuff (left shoulder) and an arthritic thumb (left hand) and shoot a handgun right handed. You may, at this point, think "what's the problem?" I was trained to shoot Glocks two-handed and I can no longer raise my left arm shoulder height without considerable shaking - not conducive to accurate shooting. At the LGS they suggested I learn to shoot one-handed and showed me a Bersa Thunder .380. Looks like a Walther PPK clone. It's a blowback with the 3 1/2" barrel fixed to the alloy frame and is quite light. Anyway, I took their advice, bought the gun, and after several range sessions have become as good as I ever was with a Glock shooting with both hands. As for the Bersa, it's dependable and accurate and has very little recoil.

Now, what is point shooting, or am I already doing it?
Not using your sights. I would have imagined that you have used it on occasion. You just get better at it with practice. I use point shooting for 5 yards, front sight only for 10 yards, and both sights after 15 yards.
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  #108  
Old 06-18-2017, 04:15 PM
Kentucky Shooter Kentucky Shooter is offline
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Originally Posted by richardw View Post
At 75 my arthritis in both hands is getting worse. My severely damaged and unrepairable right rotator cuff is diminishing my right arm strength in a troubling way. I carry a Ruger Lc9s because it is light and my rotator cuff can handle the weight without my arm becoming unstable.

I practice shooting two days a week with my Ruger. I shoot about 50 rounds each time to assure I can hit my selected target. But lately I have been having increased pain in my right hand. It has a deteriorating base thumb knuckle just like my left hand did some years ago. Today, I cannot get a reliable, steady grip on a gun with my left hand. My right thumb is headed in that direction. No way to stop it. It just is a fact,of old age.

Today my arthritis/hand specialist who carries a .40 and knows I carry and shoot regularly advised me to stop the use of my 9mm. He says the recoil is putting pressure on the base thumb joint, and all that is doing is aggravating the arthritis causing more deterioration to the joint. He suggested going to .380 at maximum or just stopping target shooting. But I decided to take a different course.

A couple months ago I bought a M&P 22 Compact. While I took it to the range every week I found a Bushnell 22 caliber bullet trap at a gun show for $30.00. I set it up in my basement with a good exhaust fan in a window. Now I shoot it in the basement. Because of its nearly non existent recoil it does not irritate my thumb. I have gotten more accurate with it than with my Lc9s. Generally I shoot a 22LR group of five rounds into a 1.5 inch cluster at 25 feet. I can do that in about four seconds. So that started me thinking.

I had done some research on the self defense lethality of the 22LR from a handgun. Turns out it is more lethal than most people think. Theo reason is the ability to lshoot a 1.5 inch group
into a vital spot of the body aa like the thorax or head, and do it in less than five seconds.

So I have decided to preserve the thumb and adopt the 22 Compact for EDC. My research also indicated that the best ammo was the CCI Mini Mag HP. At brassfetcher.com there is a good test of 22LR HP expansion. The Mini Mag was second only to a Winchester Super X HP. Problem was that there are many reported incidents of failures of the Winchester rounds and none of the CCI Mini Mag HPs. So I have a new EDC combo. The 22C and Mini Mags. It is a gun my impaired rotator cuff can accommodate and my thumb can work with. Life moves on but not always the way envisioned it. So keeping highly precise accuracy under duress is my new challenge.

You have to do what works for you and there are no bad guys who are gonna shrug off a hailstorm of .22LR in a vital place, preferably between the eyes.

Dont let any well-meaning naysayers who say dont use the .22 for this reason or that get you down. The lowly .22LR has been protecting many a home and ranch/farm much longer than anyone reading this has been around. Besides, I wouldnt want to mess with a former Marine no matter what he was carrying.

My only advice is for your home defense or carry piece is to load up with rimfire ammo known for high dependability such as CCI Minimags or Stingers. When I need to carry a .22, CCI is my go-to brand.

Best of luck and thank you so much for your service to our country. I'm praying for your health to keep you in the game until you reach 100 at least.

Last edited by Kentucky Shooter; 06-18-2017 at 04:30 PM.
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  #109  
Old 06-18-2017, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentucky Shooter View Post
You have to do what works for you and there are no bad guys who are gonna shrug off a hailstorm of .22LR in a vital place, preferably between the eyes.

Dont let any well-meaning naysayers who say dont use the .22 for this reason or that get you down. The lowly .22LR has been protecting many a home and ranch/farm much longer than anyone reading this has been around.

My only advice is for your home defense or carry piece is to load up with rimfire ammo known for high dependability such as CCI Minimags or Stingers. When I need to carry a .22, CCI is my go-to brand.

Best of luck and thank you so much for your service to our country. I'm praying for your health to keep you in the game until you reach 100 at least.
Thanks Kentucky Shooter.

Believe me, nay sayes will never get me down. If a platoon of charging NVA with fixed bayonets could not get me down, there is no way words will ever do it.

As for CCI, it is the only ammo I use. I load Mini Mag HP. After many hours of researching the topic of which ammo I should use, I saw that Mini Mag HP was the most likely to expand out of a 3.5 inch barrel. When it does not expand it acts like RN and penetrates deeper. Today I put round number 1300 through my 22 Compact with never a failure to feed, fire, or eject. It's reliable.

As for target area, I practice for center mass on the breast bone and what I call the the deadly triangle. That triangle is a space that runs along the occipital skull bone and triangulates on both sides down to the bridge of the nose, a sure incapacitation zone. It is a tight shot but with 22 it is really not so difficult to put three rounds there very quickly.

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  #110  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:10 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
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Have you seen the PM-30 22 Magnum pistol? I saw that thing fired at an indoor match and I was in awe. Holy cow it's loud and formidable.

Have you considered some solids in the mix as well? I am just a little hesitant on the HP in .22 LR.
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  #111  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
Have you seen the PM-30 22 Magnum pistol? I saw that thing fired at an indoor match and I was in awe. Holy cow it's loud and formidable.

Have you considered some solids in the mix as well? I am just a little hesitant on the HP in .22 LR.
I did try the PM30. Nice gun, but the ballistics are not that much better than the 22 LR at close range, where it's barrel length gives it slight edge. I found that it was too long for concealed carry with a grip that I did not like. I love the 22 Compact ergonomics.

I did a mountain of research into best 22 ammo for SD. Selected Mini Mag HP based on tests that showed it was one of two HP loads that would expand out of a 3.5 inch barrel. The other was Winchester Super X power point. The latter dId not mix well with my 22 Compact. Too many failures while no failures with the Mini Mag.

If the Mini Mag HP fails to expand it is a ball round and it is likely to tumble and reverse to base forward after penetrationmif three inches. Effect is like a HP when it comes to permanent wound cavity.

While I was not a fan of mixing loads in a magazine in the case of 22 I do it. I stagger Mini Mag HPnwith RN. The first round out is HP.

I get a succession of expansion and penetration that way. Neither is going to penetrate through the head or the thoracic cavity, but both will just bounce around the area thay are fired into and not exit the body. It is like shooting an immersion blender into someone. It just grinds up the innards.

The bottom line of using a mouse gun for SD is accuracy more than ballistics. Being very analytic by nature I came to a well researched conclusion. A well placed round from a 22 is more effective than a poorly placed round from a 45. There was a time when I could deliver a headshot from a M1911 at 10 yards. Age, arthritis, and a delapidated strong side rotator cuff has changed all that. Now I have rely on accuracy more than power. I am confident in my decision.

I hope I never get to put that decision to the test, but should I have to I am confident this old Marine will do what he was taught; kill the enemy. I just will do it with less power than I had back in the days of my prime. Semper Fi.
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  #112  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:02 AM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
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I was not particularly advocating the PM-30. I just figured you might have tried it in your search. You have very obviously done your homework on the rounds and expansion. Kind of neat to hear about the process. Did you try the Remington Viper and Yellow jacket? I haven't been seriously .22 shopping in a long while. My Mark2 loves those rounds though. Very accurate.
I have a "fidget spinner" chambered in .22 Short made by NAA. I love shooting it. It makes me smile. I make believe I am good enough to make face shots at 7 yards. Sometimes I practice quite a bit with it. I generally carry the CCI 27 grain hollowpoints and practice with whatever I can find. Other than a cranio ocular cavity shot, I'm not going to have a great deal of penetration.
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  #113  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
I was not particularly advocating the PM-30. I just figured you might have tried it in your search. You have very obviously done your homework on the rounds and expansion. Kind of neat to hear about the process. Did you try the Remington Viper and Yellow jacket? I haven't been seriously .22 shopping in a long while. My Mark2 loves those rounds though. Very accurate.
I have a "fidget spinner" chambered in .22 Short made by NAA. I love shooting it. It makes me smile. I make believe I am good enough to make face shots at 7 yards. Sometimes I practice quite a bit with it. I generally carry the CCI 27 grain hollowpoints and practice with whatever I can find. Other than a cranio ocular cavity shot, I'm not going to have a great deal of penetration.
I did not try either round you mention. I selected the ammo to try based upon numerous ballistic, wetpack, and other barrier tests done by others. Most of them are on YouTube. I am discriminating enough to sort the authoritative testers from the phonies. One test was that done by brassfetcher.com. They tested numerous HP rounds to see which expanded from a 3.5 inch barrel in ballistic gel. Those that showed no sign of expansion were bumped from the second phase test. In the second phase those rounds that showed some expansion were further tested. That second round showed the CCI Mini Mag HP and Winchester Super X PLus HP properly expanded, with the Winchester round rated best.

I shot 100 round each of the CCI and Winchester ammo. I had three failures to eject with the Winchester. And none with the CCI. I decided to put the Mini Mag HPs to an extended test. After shooting 500 rounds without a hiccup I adopted it. Since then I have put, as of yesterday, 1300 rounds through my 22 Compact without a failure of any kind.

I also researched 22LR effectiveness based upon medical and coroner reports. The bullet rarely exits the body. It tends to penetrate and as soon as it hits bone begin to bounce around and become inverted to somewhere between 90 and 180 degrees. That increase its incapacitation and lethality ability. Oddly they rarely expand but they do enormous damage in spite of that because of the inversion and bouncing.

I also researched 22LR RN performance compared to HP. Generally the RN achieves deeper penetration than an expanded HP. However an unexpended HP acts like a RN in terms of penetration. So I stick with HP since I would get the benefit of expansion when conditions are right and the penetration of RN when there is no expansion.

FinLly, I have two target area. They are the breast bone and what I call the deadly triangle, which is a triangle that runs across the occipital skull then triangulated down to the bridge of the nose. Both are very small targets, but with the accuracy achievable through a series of shots they are real kill zones.
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  #114  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:04 PM
exdetsgt exdetsgt is offline
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You might want to consider a Bersa Thunder in .22lr.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:12 PM
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You might want to consider a Bersa Thunder in .22lr.
Bersa makes a line of highly reliable guns in several calibers. However, I love the ergonomics of the 22 Compact. It just fits my hand like it was made to be it. The Bersa did not. For me it came down to the Ruger SR 22 and the M&P 22 compact. After renting And putting 100 rounds through each I bought the 22 Compact. No regrets. I love this gun.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:51 PM
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Heck, I'm lookin' at the big seven oh, I'm chubby, and sometimes my back really hurts. I decided to not carry my EDC snubby K frame recently because I wanted less "pressure" on my belt so I went to grab my CS-9 and grabbed a Walter P-22 first. I thought to myself, "Fine, ten rounds in a reliable gun that is lightweight and flat, make it so!"

I didn't for one moment concern myself that it was a .22. I stoked it with CCI Stingers and off I went. I did find the CS-9 and switched to it but when I want to go lightweight, and sometimes in the summer you jus' gotta! - the Walther P-22 is comin' back out!!!
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  #117  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
I've killed an awful lot of stuff with a .22LR.. I don't think a BG getting hit with a hail storm of .22 is gonna want to play very long.
I have often thought the same thing, but I was thinking more about the lightweight PMR 30, and 30 rounds of 22 WMR buzzing around. Longer barrel than I would prefer for concealment, but very lightweight, even loaded. My Ruger SR22 has been very dependable as well, and much easier to conceal. Although I have carried neither, so far, I can't say that I havent considered them.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:38 PM
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Enjoyed reading this thread and appreciated the respect given the original poster and the lack of "caliber flaming" that you could expect in other sites. While thankfully still able to handle service caliber pistols well, there are times the closet gun at hand or in my pocket is a .22, and agree where you put the bullets is still the key.
During my tour in Iraq I saw some one hit multiple times with 7.62 NATO and stay upright and ask repeatedly why were we shooting him. Even heavy rifle calibers fail at times. Use what you can handle competently and continue to march!
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  #119  
Old 06-22-2017, 08:18 AM
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I had to shoot a very large beaver in a drainage ditch recently. He had caused a lot of damage. Shot him at 30 ft with a 22 lr. DRT, always impressed with the effectivenes of a 22. I carry a glock 42 myself. Very soft shooting, easy on my hands.
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:09 AM
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I posted on page 1....... but have followed the thread.

NO handgun round will immediately stop an aggressor unless you hit the CNS.........so.....

To me the bottom line comes down to;

I'd rather my wife have her M&P .22 Compact ''handy" than know that her 2" Model 10 is at home.

I don't see her fighting off a street gang or a horde of jihadists by herself..........so 5-10 rounds of CCI should suffice to discourage an aggressor

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Old 06-22-2017, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by silversnake View Post
I'm a huge fan of Bill Jordan and his book but I don't think .22 WMR has really lived up to his expectations, at least not in a snubby. Out of a 6" barrel, or a rifle sure, but in a 2" barrel the performance is hardly better than .22 LR. If I wanted a step up in power from .22 but little recoil I'd look into .32 S&W Long.

My source: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results
S&W built the Model 650 and 651 (fixed and adjustable sights) in .22 Magnum Rim Fire. 3" barrels and very hard to find.

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Who has arthritis in the family and his hands...sigh.
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:49 AM
silversnake silversnake is offline
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Originally Posted by Skeptic 9c View Post
S&W built the Model 650 and 651 (fixed and adjustable sights) in .22 Magnum Rim Fire. 3" barrels and very hard to find.

Geoff
Who has arthritis in the family and his hands...sigh.
Sorry to hear about your arthritis. The 650/651 are neat little revolvers. While certainly better ballistically, today I'd still take a .22 LR over either of them, now that the drought is over I know I would practice more with the cheaper ammunition.

One of my favorite revolvers is my pre-Model 43 with a 3.5" barrel, so much fun to shoot and weighs under a pound loaded. If limited by disability I would not hesitate to carry that (or maybe better yet, an 8 shot 317 or LCRx).
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  #123  
Old 06-22-2017, 11:00 AM
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I just had a chance to handle a S&W 43C at a LGS.

Neat little gun. 8 shots, centennial style with no hammer. Plus it has no lock.

Also, the 351C is the same thing in 22 mag. 7 shots and also no lock.

Both looked like great carry pieces for someone who wants a 22.
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  #124  
Old 06-23-2017, 07:56 AM
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Hummm...what ever happened to the Hi-Standard 9 shot .22 LR / .22 Magnum with interchangeable cylinders?

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  #125  
Old 06-24-2017, 11:28 PM
trbomax trbomax is offline
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Originally Posted by richardw View Post
After much reserch I narrowed my gun choise down to the SR22 and the M&P 22 Compact. I rented both at my LGS range. They were both great, but the M&P just felt better in the hand. Walked off the range and bought one.

Prior to that I had spent a lot of hours researching ammo. CCI came out a reliable winner. I was attracted to Stinger because of its velocity to weight relation. But further research showed that it fails to expand from a handgun because the velociity from a handgun is substantially less than from a rifle, which is what is used to set velocity ratings. Everything I found online pointed to CCI Mini Mag HP as the best choice.

At brassfetcher.com there is a comprehensive test of 22 HP expansion. Mini Mag was second best. Winchester Super x was first but I passed it bybbecause other reviews indicated that Winchester rimfire was undependable and CCI was dependable.
I also have one of each.I found an extreamly will fitting IWB Kydex rig for the9,but cant come up with anything in an IWB for the 22compact.I have bought a couple kydex shells that looked promising,but in the end just dont make the cut!.What do you carry it in,IWB ?
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  #126  
Old 06-25-2017, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by trbomax View Post
I also have one of each.I found an extreamly will fitting IWB Kydex rig for the9,but cant come up with anything in an IWB for the 22compact.I have bought a couple kydex shells that looked promising,but in the end just dont make the cut!.What do you carry it in,IWB ?
I tried a couple with disappointment. Then I found a Kydex Holster on eBay with adjustable cant. $29.97 including shipping. Figured it was worth a chance. Ended up loving the holster. Then bought a LH one without cant for $24.97 because it could be used as a OWB RH Holster. It works for the rare times I carry OWB.

If you want to find it on eBay, search "Defiant Tactical IWB Kysex IWB holster". It is a steal at the price.
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  #127  
Old 06-25-2017, 11:54 AM
trbomax trbomax is offline
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Originally Posted by richardw View Post
I tried a couple with disappointment. Then I found a Kydex Holster on eBay with adjustable cant. $29.97 including shipping. Figured it was worth a chance. Ended up loving the holster. Then bought a LH one without cant for $24.97 because it could be used as a OWB RH Holster. It works for the rare times I carry OWB.

If you want to find it on eBay, search "Defiant Tactical IWB Kysex IWB holster". It is a steal at the price.
Thanks.I ordered one so we will see! I had one that was made for a glock that fit pretty well after some trimming,but the threaded barrel stuck out and would rub on my leg.
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  #128  
Old 07-01-2017, 12:17 PM
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I know I'm late to this party, but I wanted to say excellent post gentlemen. At 73 years old, and an avid shooter, I feel your pain. I only suffer from one small issue which is the infamous lower thumb joint pain that comes and goes on my weak hand. I carry and shoot 45s, and a 340PD and all are pretty good kickers. I told my wife the other day that if my pain ever gets really bad I will switch to a revolver, and I would have no reservations about carrying a .22.

I think the OP has really thought his situation through, and I think his ideas are excellent. Remember, more people die each year by getting shot with a .22 than any other caliber. Why? Because most people own a .22, and obviously they will kill you.
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Old 07-01-2017, 02:52 PM
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I ordered the Defiant Tactical IWB. I was a bit dissapointed that it did not cover the threaded barrel extension and I was afraid it would gouge my leg.Well,not to worry! after 3 days of carry it hasnt even touched my leg once!This is a very comfortable rig for the compact 22.The retention is a bit tight for my likeing,even with the screw bached all the way out.I think I will work on the inside of it with some 600 wet paper,then spray the hell out of it with a solvent based silicone.Do not use water based anything where a weapon is involved.
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  #130  
Old 07-06-2017, 12:33 PM
tripledipper tripledipper is offline
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I came across this thread because of a response from CAL44 to my inquiry about .22WMR revolvers. Will be 80 this year and did not enjoy range shooting any longer so I sold most of my collection (.38SP &.22LR), revolvers, rifles and ammo. Just kept a Model 10 for the house and a couple of kit guns 34-1 2"& 63 4" for me and a 317 Lady Smith for the wife. I was seriously think about getting rid of the 34-1 and going to a 351c/pd but you all have convinced me to stay with .22lr. Thank you for your discussion.
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  #131  
Old 07-06-2017, 01:09 PM
gman51 gman51 is offline
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Empty a 10 round 22lr magazine into a bad guy within a few seconds will most likely save your life. You can practice a whole lot more with a 22lr pistol than you can with any other caliber. Practice means better protection due to greater accuracy.

A hollow point 22lr round spreads diameter very well in most cases. Your hearing will probably take much less damage with a 22lr also. Recoil is practically nothing and so staying on target is much easier to do also.
I had a Phoenix HP22A pistol that never once jammed and was as accurate as I could shoot it. It was less than half the price of equivalent size pistols. Being all metal it was a bit heavier but was still not a problem.
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  #132  
Old 07-06-2017, 02:08 PM
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I actually bought one of these 10 or so years ago, as one of my children was reaching an appropriate age. It came in a hardish case with an extra mag and a second longer barrel. We fed it tons of copper washed Fed, Olin and Aguila, never malfunctioned. It is a Hyundai not a Mercedes. But its a reliable Hyundai. Can't (maybe couldn't, I don't live there anymore) buy them in Mini-soda because of the 'Poor-folks-anint-buyin-no-guns-here' laws.

I really disliked the two safteys and the fact that they work opposite each other, and that you can't drop the mag without engaging one of them. But my child showed superior (to dad at least) intellegence by getting used to it in oh, one range session. Trigger, safteys, sights are plastic. Alloy may deform in strong sunlight, but through more than 5,000 rounds at least I would say: zero malfunctions.

Oh, think I paid $150 or so Christmas 2007ish.

Of course when I am too feeble to hold my M40 straight I have a 351c and a bunch of GoldDots waiting...
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  #133  
Old 07-06-2017, 02:27 PM
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On the matter of hollow points expanding. Hollow points need velocity (and not to be plugged up) to expand. Out of my Marlin 60's 22 inch barrel a Super X or simmilar may become an old Roman Coin. Out of an NAA single action, well, I think someone has a YouBoob on reloading .22lr, that undeformed hp will do nicely. Velocity, its hard to achive in little short barrels, be they .251, .311, .357, .421 or .451. There is a guy here who carries a PPK/S in .22lr (and that's fine, its a neat little gun, with good shot placement it can defend you). BUT, he carries it because the box of .22 says 1510 fps, and .38s are like 750 -900 fps, so thats like ALMOST TWICE AS MANY FOOT POUNDS.
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  #134  
Old 07-06-2017, 03:51 PM
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Back in my OP that began this thread I indicated I was going to shoot Mini Mag HP. I based that decision on ballistics tests done at brassfetcher.com. While most 22 HP out of a 3.5 inch barrel at 10 feet failed to expand, the Mini Mag expanded into the classic mushroom shape. However it only penetrated ballistic gel to 9.3 inches. Meanwhile The CCI Velocitor only expanded slightly but penetrated 15 inches.

I decided on the expansion figuring that successive expanding rounds would do enough damage to make up for the modest penetration. But I do not give up researching when I still have question. My question was why did the Velocitor with its greater velocity and bullet mass did bnot expand nearly as much as the Mini Mag. It took a month to get that answer.

By being Marine persistent I got to ask that question of a knowledable ballistics person at CCI. He asked not to be identified, and he cautioned me that CCI did not recommend 22 for SD.

Then he explained the differences in expansion between Mini Mag and Velocitor. Paraphrasing his comments, the Mini Mag HP well is drilled much deeper than that of the Velocitor. The Velocitor well is really shallow by comparison. I bought some yesterday and the difference is quite noticeable.

He continued that the Mini Mag was designed to mushroom but the Velocitor was designed to only slightly expand without mushrooming. Here is the rational. The Mini Mag is a lighte bullet (34gr) at lower velocity than Velocitor and so needs greater expansion to do its damage. The Velocitor has greater mass at 40gr and greater velocity. While the Mini Mag will make a greater permanent wound cavity during its lesser penetration, the Velocitor will make a lesser permanent wound cavity but over more penetration. So the trade off is wider PWC with less penetration or narrower PWC with greater penetration.

Of course he would not make a recommendation. I do not blame him. I did ask about the hyper velocity Stinger a 32 grain bullet with an extra dose of powder in its longer casing. He said the aim of the Stinger was to achieve faster velocity and longer range using a rifle. At short distances out of a handgun it will not achieve the characteristics of either the Mini Mag or Velocitor.

So I have 150 rounds of Velocitor now, and I am going to do some non paper target testing of it and Mini Mag HP and RN. I have setup a blog titled 22defense but have not published it yet. I will publish the results of my testing later this month, and I will announce the publication and results here.
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  #135  
Old 07-06-2017, 03:59 PM
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Mixed magazine of 5 Velocitor's and 5 Mini-Mags with a Mini or Velocitor in the chamber?
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  #136  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:09 PM
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Mixed magazine of 5 Velocitor's and 5 Mini-Mags with a Mini or Velocitor in the chamber?
Sounds like very viable load to me.
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  #137  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:17 PM
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I


Then he explained the differences in expansion between Mini Mag and Velocitor. Paraphrasing his comments, the Mini Mag HP well is drilled much deeper than that of the Velocitor. The Velocitor well is really shallow by comparison. I bought some yesterday and the difference is quite noticeable.

He continued that the Mini Mag was designed to mushroom but the Velocitor was designed to only slightly expand without mushrooming. Here is the rational. The Mini Mag is a lighte bullet (34gr) at lower velocity than Velocitor and so needs greater expansion to do its damage. The Velocitor has greater mass at 40gr and greater velocity. While the Mini Mag will make a greater permanent wound cavity during its lesser penetration, the Velocitor will make a lesser permanent wound cavity but over more penetration. So the trade off is wider PWC with less penetration or narrower PWC with greater penetration.

I did ask about the hyper velocity Stinger a 32 grain bullet with an extra dose of powder in its longer casing. He said the aim of the Stinger was to achieve faster velocity and longer range using a rifle. At short distances out of a handgun it will not achieve the characteristics of either the Mini Mag or Velocitor.

I will publish the results of my testing later this month, and I will announce the publication and results here.
By the way great info...... new info to me...........
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  #138  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR_Black View Post
Better a .22 in the hand, than a 9MM at home, when you need it.

Next time you go gun "window shopping", check out one of the Beretta .22 tip up pistols. I think Taurus makes one too.


Baby Berettas: A tale of tip up barrels - Guns.com


Beretta Model 21 22LR Pistol Review & Disassembly - YouTube
DO YOURSELF A BIG FAVOR, AND STAY AWAY FROM ANY TAURUS PRODUCT ! ! !

SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY, AND GET YOURSELF A BERETTA, IF THIS STYLE OF WEAPON APPEALS TO YOU......
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  #139  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:34 PM
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Ah, the Tip Barrel Berettas. Cute little things, I have had at various times a .22 short 950 Jetfire (not a 950S), the 3032 Tomcat in .32acp, 21A Bobcats in .22lr and .25acp. They are Berettas, I think Beretta makes great guns, fun to play with. Just a few thoughts about carring them for SD. I am an old revolver guy, I don't like having to disengage a saftey. The Bobcats and Tomcats are DA/SA so you can ignore it I guess, the Jetfire was SA only, newer 950S models have a saftey so you can pretend its a 1911. The 950 is supposed to be drawn and cocked before being fired. Each of mine would fire and fire until a round eventually got stuck in a dirty barrel. No extractor, no ejector, can't tap and rack, you need a pencil and Hoppes. On the .22s they always fired a box (50) before a round stuck, sometimes two boxes (100), so I guess if you kept it perfectly clean it would be unlikley to jam up until after you Mozambiqued the 17th ninja attacking you. Like I said I am a revolver guy, but I do have a few of those newfanged auto-loading pistols, they will be worth something in a few years when the fad dies out and nobody is making them anymore.
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  #140  
Old 07-06-2017, 10:59 PM
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Just found an illustration in the CCI catalog of a fully expanded Velocitor as mentioned in my post above in #134. It looks like a wadcutter with a wide brim. I can see where that expansion coupled with the very deep penetration of the Velocitor would do a lot of damage.

[IMG][/IMG]
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  #141  
Old 07-06-2017, 11:35 PM
nachogrande nachogrande is offline
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IF you are able to carry/draw/fire the larger caliber "reasonably well" Keep that for S/D since it's pretty unlikely you will ever need to use it for such, and if you did you would be glad you had it. Get a second gun as similar in every way to the first in 22 lr for practice. NOT CC guns, but I do it with my 681 & 617, & it works out nice, especially if they fit in the same holster.
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