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  #151  
Old 10-18-2020, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by fatcat3 View Post
I see this argument quit a bit when it comes to .22 for ccw.
...
I've also seen the argument quite a bit about a .22 being lethal to the attacker, but not stopping the threat before the attacker kills you.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen this actually play out with civilian thugs in real life. They're looking for easy targets. They're not on suicide missions. You shoot a thug in the shoulder, sure he might continue the attack. You shoot the thug in the chest I don't think so.

For me, the biggest issue with .22 is reliability, not stopping power.
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  #152  
Old 10-18-2020, 08:55 AM
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[QUOTE=Ziggy2525;140934926

For me, the biggest issue with .22 is reliability, not stopping power.[/QUOTE]

That's the reason I would want a revolver for defense and preferably one that has 8-10 bullets. I had a Beretta M21A .22 and was using CCI Mini-Mags and one day the first shot snapped. If the tin can would have attacked me I would have been doomed. With a revolver another pull of the trigger would have sufficed. Larry
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  #153  
Old 10-18-2020, 09:24 AM
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IMO the biggest argument against 22LR for SD is that autos can be finicky and revolvers have tough trigger pulls.

I found the revolver DA trigger tough to deal with. Some of our forum members report good reliability with their autos. You would have to do a lot of testing, but at least with 22LR it is cheap!
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  #154  
Old 10-18-2020, 09:47 AM
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I have always said that owning a gun is a very personal thing and a person needs to use what ever they are reliably consistent with.
Several hits with a smaller caliber are much more effective than a large boom and a miss.
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  #155  
Old 10-18-2020, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardw View Post
At 75 my arthritis in both hands is getting worse. My severely damaged and unrepairable right rotator cuff is diminishing my right arm strength in a troubling way. I carry a Ruger Lc9s because it is light and my rotator cuff can handle the weight without my arm becoming unstable.

I practice shooting two days a week with my Ruger. I shoot about 50 rounds each time to assure I can hit my selected target. But lately I have been having increased pain in my right hand. It has a deteriorating base thumb knuckle just like my left hand did some years ago. Today, I cannot get a reliable, steady grip on a gun with my left hand. My right thumb is headed in that direction. No way to stop it. It just is a fact,of old age.

Today my arthritis/hand specialist who carries a .40 and knows I carry and shoot regularly advised me to stop the use of my 9mm. He says the recoil is putting pressure on the base thumb joint, and all that is doing is aggravating the arthritis causing more deterioration to the joint. He suggested going to .380 at maximum or just stopping target shooting. But I decided to take a different course.

A couple months ago I bought a M&P 22 Compact. While I took it to the range every week I found a Bushnell 22 caliber bullet trap at a gun show for $30.00. I set it up in my basement with a good exhaust fan in a window. Now I shoot it in the basement. Because of its nearly non existent recoil it does not irritate my thumb. I have gotten more accurate with it than with my Lc9s. Generally I shoot a 22LR group of five rounds into a 1.5 inch cluster at 25 feet. I can do that in about four seconds. So that started me thinking.

I had done some research on the self defense lethality of the 22LR from a handgun. Turns out it is more lethal than most people think. Theo reason is the ability to lshoot a 1.5 inch group
into a vital spot of the body aa like the thorax or head, and do it in less than five seconds.

So I have decided to preserve the thumb and adopt the 22 Compact for EDC. My research also indicated that the best ammo was the CCI Mini Mag HP. At brassfetcher.com there is a good test of 22LR HP expansion. The Mini Mag was second only to a Winchester Super X HP. Problem was that there are many reported incidents of failures of the Winchester rounds and none of the CCI Mini Mag HPs. So I have a new EDC combo. The 22C and Mini Mags. It is a gun my impaired rotator cuff can accommodate and my thumb can work with. Life moves on but not always the way envisioned it. So keeping highly precise accuracy under duress is my new challenge.
My compliments on the level of research you did in an effort to address your problem. Hopefully, now three years after your initial post, you are still able to continue your training regimen and carry your .22lr. You are better equipped than most to defend yourself if needed.
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  #156  
Old 10-18-2020, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I just had a chance to handle a S&W 43C at a LGS.

Neat little gun. 8 shots, centennial style with no hammer. Plus it has no lock.

Also, the 351C is the same thing in 22 mag. 7 shots and also no lock.

Both looked like great carry pieces for someone who wants a 22.
I have a 43C. The trigger was horrendus, but I wasn't about to start messing with springs and reliability. Not from the jump anyway.

After 2 sets of snap caps (wore one set completely out), and countless dry fires, the trigger has smoothed out quite a bit, plus strengthing the DA muscles. I'm 73 and have the corresponding lack of strength in both the hands and arm. The 43C makes a perfect pocket pistol.

I also have 2, M34-1s snubbys, but these are just a bit too heavy for pocket use and would need a belt holster. Chunky little things, but boy do they shoot!

AFA the reliability of .22lr, you get what you pay for. You don't blueprint a 327 engine and expect 87 octane to work well in it. Don't expect bulk ammo or, whatevers on sale at Wally World to be reliable. I've been using SK standard+ (rebranded as Wolf MT), for well over 10 years and cannot honestly recall any ammo related issues with it. No experience, but I've also heard good things about Eley. Apparently QC means something on the other side of the Atlantic.

Yeah, it costs more, so what? You aren't shooting tin cans, but, perhaps, trusting your life to it.

The simple fact is, for me, I simply can shoot .22s more accurately in J framed sized revolvers than even .38 target loads and for me, accuracy trumps 'knock down power' every time.

Rob
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  #157  
Old 10-18-2020, 07:02 PM
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I never thought recoil would bother me but now it does. I'm 65 and carry a 38. Someday my S&W Model 34 Kit Gun could be my EDC.
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  #158  
Old 10-18-2020, 07:15 PM
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Anyone a fan of the LCR .22?
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  #159  
Old 10-18-2020, 07:35 PM
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Gentlemen, although an interesting thread the OP self-exiled himself from the Forum over 2 1/2 years ago since we were "restricting his First Amendment rights".
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Old 10-18-2020, 07:36 PM
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Gentlemen, although an interesting thread the OP self-exiled himself from the Forum over 2 1/2 years ago since we were "restricting his First Amendment rights".
Sounds like a "Party Pooper".............
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  #161  
Old 10-18-2020, 08:08 PM
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Gentlemen, although an interesting thread the OP self-exiled himself from the Forum over 2 1/2 years ago since we were "restricting his First Amendment rights".
Your house, your rules. Simple courtesy.

Since it was drug up, this HAS been an interesting and informative thread.

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  #162  
Old 10-19-2020, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I've also seen the argument quite a bit about a .22 being lethal to the attacker, but not stopping the threat before the attacker kills you.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen this actually play out with civilian thugs in real life. They're looking for easy targets. They're not on suicide missions. You shoot a thug in the shoulder, sure he might continue the attack. You shoot the thug in the chest I don't think so.

For me, the biggest issue with .22 is reliability, not stopping power.
Real bad guys arent afraid of getting shot. Why do so many think that a bad guy will pee his pants at the sight of a gun & certsinly give up if hit with eben a 22lr?
I assume my attacker will want to fight regardless of my defense. So I carry something that is more likely to stop a fight with 1-2 high COM hits. There really is no reason to dabble with even remotely unreliable small caliber mouse guns.
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  #163  
Old 10-19-2020, 07:46 PM
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If you had ever dealt with one, you would know they really are. Everybody is afraid of getting shot. I am. You are. Stop it . . .

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Real bad guys arent afraid of getting shot. . .
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  #164  
Old 10-19-2020, 07:48 PM
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The first pistol I ever carried was a Walther PPK/S-22. Back then, I didn't know much about handguns, but I was familiar with .22LR in rifles, and I knew that it was potentially lethal and had basically no recoil, so it seemed like a decent choice.
However, within a year I had upgraded to a PPK/S chambered in .380 ACP, albeit more for the sake of reliability than overall effectiveness.

Nowadays I carry a SW40VE with an a LCP as backup, but if a .22LR was all that I could handle due to injury or arthritis, then I would do so, but I would stick with premium ammo and solid bullets.
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  #165  
Old 10-19-2020, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Real bad guys arent afraid of getting shot. Why do so many think that a bad guy will pee his pants at the sight of a gun & certsinly give up if hit with eben a 22lr?
You're conflating a bad guy not being intimidated by someone pointing a gun at them vs someone actually shooting a BG.

Link to one real case, for civilian self defense, not LEO or military, where a BG took a couple .22 to the chest and was like "no big deal" and continued his attack. Just one case, that's all.

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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
...
There really is no reason to dabble with even remotely unreliable small caliber mouse guns.
Sure there is. Concealability and physical limitations. People carry mouse guns when their circumstances require clandestine carry. People carry a .22 when they have medical conditions like arthritis that makes it difficult to shoot a larger caliber pistol.
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  #166  
Old 10-19-2020, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LCC View Post
Anyone a fan of the LCR .22?
Yes! Been using one for over two years. There are several threads available on the LCR .22. The main issue is the heavy DA trigger pull, which is required for reliable ignition of rimfire ammo. My wife's. 38 LCR trigger pull is noticeably lighter.
I believe Ruger now has a .22 LCR with an exposed hammer and DA/SA. Exposed hammers, pocket carry, etc. is another subject which causes discussion! 🙃
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  #167  
Old 10-19-2020, 08:12 PM
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One of my favorite .22s of all time is my Bersa Thunder. It has a steel slide, no pot metal or whatever they call it, great ergonomics, DA/SA trigger, and perfectly reliable with CCI Blazers and Stingers. It hates Rem/Win/Fed junk ammo because it doesn't have the power to move that steel slide. I can fire 11 rounds out of it very quickly and accurately and getting head shots are a breeze at close range.
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  #168  
Old 10-19-2020, 08:15 PM
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In the distant past during an undercover assignment I carried a 4" Ruger standard .22 automatic pistol. I did not feel under gunned or outgunned. This Ruger came from evidence and was not new, but would fire LR solids or hollow points interchangeable without a hiccup.
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  #169  
Old 10-19-2020, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatcat3 View Post
I see this argument quit a bit when it comes to .22 for ccw. What makes anyone think I'm just going to allow someone to " beat me to death" with out putting up a fight? once the .22 is empty and if i still need to defend myself, I'm switching to my cane, pocket knife, car keys,plant pot, can of Ensure, #2 pencil ...... After 5, 7,10 or so .22 cal. holes in my attacker, I may not have the advantage, but I'm betting I have evened the odds.
It's not being beaten to death that would be my primary worry. It would be being shot by the bad guy before he finally succumbs to his wounds.
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  #170  
Old 10-19-2020, 08:33 PM
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Real bad guys absolutely positively indubitably and irretrieavably are afraid of being shot. With anything.

I have worked lots of cases where bad guys were shot with .22s and in not one single case did they continue doing whatever caused them to get shot. Not once.

Maybe they weren’t “real bad guys”. Please relate your first hand experience with these not-afraid-to-be-shot bad guys.
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:50 PM
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3 yr old thread is old? Where you been, there’s 6+ yo threads resurrected.
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  #172  
Old 10-19-2020, 08:51 PM
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And thanks for posting! I am 74 and my right rotator cuff is inflamed most of the time. Being a revolver guy who does not EDC, my night stand gun has been a S&W Mod 10(HB) loaded with +P HPs for 40 years. Just raising it to line of sight causes extreme discomfort in my upper arm. You just inspired me to replace it with my S&W J frame 22LR kit gun loaded with Mini Mag HPs. Getting old has it's downside, but it sure beats the alternative!


PS: Aleve(blue pill) helps the best in relieving the pain from inflamation
Or better yet, get a Smith 317 .22 LR Airlite with either a 1 7/8” or 3” barrel. I have both, and they weigh almost nothing. Feel like kid’s toys. I believe the short barreled one weighs 11 oz. empty. 8 shots.
DO NOT DRY FIRE THEM. NOT EVEN ONCE.
The cylinders are aluminum and the firing pin will hit the edge of the chamber and make a ding that will displace metal into the chamber area. Requires re-shaping with a round needle file. Don’t ask me how I know.
DO NOT USE ANY KIND OF METALLIC BRUSH OR JAG TO CLEAN THE CHAMBERS, as it will scratch them. Same goes for any kind of metallic tool to scrape lead buildup from around the frame in the barrel/cylinder gap area.
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Old 10-19-2020, 09:01 PM
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What about .32 S&W long as an alternative to .22. Neither are most people's first choice, but rim fire revolvers tend to have heavier triggers and .32 is centerfire. A model 30 or 31 with a Wilson spring kit has a decent trigger and will weight the same as a typical .22 revolver. My daughter loves shooting my model 30 and she's very small and recoil sensitive.
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Old 10-19-2020, 09:17 PM
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One of the nice things about 22LR revolvers or autos is how fast, after practice, you can empty it into center mass.
My boy enjoyed practicing with a Bobcat in each hand.
We like solids not HPs.

Weak hand tended to pull to the right.
Practice practice.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by richardw View Post
Apparently it is a fact based upon a study done some years ago. I found the study while researching my choice. Then I found a blog that cited the study's important stats. Anyone who is interested can read the very brief article and see the stats here.
I carry a .22 a lot myself.
But I do it knowing that lethality and stopping power are not the same things.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by swsig View Post
richardw, I'm going to approach your problem differently from everyone else. Instead of suggesting a change of caliber, I'm going to suggest a change in statins. I am 73, and a year ago, I was in the same situation you are in. I'd developed lots of pain in my shoulders which spread to my wrists and hands. I had to install an Apex kit in my M&P 40 so I could pull the trigger. I could barely lift my range bag. My Harvard med school trained hand doctor said he'd never seen a case like mine, and wasn't sure what was wrong. I didn't fit into any traditional arthritis category.

Subsequently, my primary care physician's nurse practitioner hypothesized I was having a reaction to atorvastatin (generic Lipitor), and told me to stop taking it. I told her I'd been taking 40 mg per day for 15 years without a single side effect. She said give it a try, so I did. I stated feeling better after a week, and after a month, all of my shoulder pain and 90% of my wrist and hand pain were gone. My cardiologist then prescribed a low dose (10 mg) of rosuvastatin (generic Crestor), which has controlled my cholesterol as well as the atorvastatin did, with no side effects.

As a result, I can now shoot what I want. Today, I went to the range and fired 150 rounds of .45, and 100 rounds of .40 with no problems. If your situation is anything like mine, you might want to check your statin to see if it might be the culprit. However, if you are one of the 1% of the people in our age group who is not taking a statin, good for you, and... never mind!
Your experience almost exactly parallels my own. I was taking simvastatin for quite a number of years, and muscle and joint pain became excruciating. The label on the bottle explained that if that happens, it's best to see a n MD. I did. He took me off of it for 30 days, and I improved 100%.

He prescribed rosuvastatin, and there were no side effects for a year, but lately I've had some periodic joint pain. The doctor suggested that I take half the dosage daily, and I'm much improved.

There are statins and there are statins. Everyone's different, and just a change like this can make a huge difference in the way you live your life.

John
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:54 AM
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Statins can cause heart/muscle issues so check with your Doc.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:54 AM
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Jimmy's plan:
when using a small caliber handgun-aim for face and/or crotch.
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  #179  
Old 10-20-2020, 10:55 AM
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
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Statins are gonna end up being the Vioxx of the 21st century . . .

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Statins can cause heart/muscle issues so check with your Doc.
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  #180  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I've also seen the argument quite a bit about a .22 being lethal to the attacker, but not stopping the threat before the attacker kills you.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen this actually play out with civilian thugs in real life. They're looking for easy targets. They're not on suicide missions. You shoot a thug in the shoulder, sure he might continue the attack. You shoot the thug in the chest I don't think so.

For me, the biggest issue with .22 is reliability, not stopping power.
.22LR is definitely better for SD than NOTHING. The original post is already 3 years old and few new pistols arrived - MP9 EZ would be the perfect alternative for manageable MP22.

Anyway, even still using .22LR there is no doubt that it's so easy shooting caliber, that weak stopping power combined with precision and round amount per second will give expected results.

With new .22LR pistols (MP22C is a perfect example) there is no reliability problems anymore. I put thousands rounds without single malfunction. (CCI and Aquila ammo).
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