It's a known fact that handguns are an inferior means in a gun fight.
That being known, caliber and capacity is important. I don't think that a duty size weapon is critical to the concealed carry civilian.
Concealabity is the most important factor. Shootabilty is next.
Barrel length is not really a factor unless you're talking 6"+.
Slide width and grip length determine a guns conceal ability.
The grip length is most important for concealability.
Barrel length really doesn't matter much.
Consider whether capacity or caliber is your determining factor.
I like caliber, so I have chosen .45, but that's me. YMMV, but barrel length should not be a factor. You can hide a long barrel down your pant leg with the right holster.

Reliability is the #1 prime consideration without exception. A weapon, of any type, that is not serviceable for whatever reason is more dangerous than being unarmed in many circumstances.

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Who watches the watchers?

LOL..............unless you have to sit down!



I can do a 4" 19/66 but prefer a 3" or 2 1/2......... no way I could do a 6"barreled revolver IWB....... that said I can do a 5" 1911 or 4.7" Beretta 92........... but barrels measure differently..... A 6" revolver (barrel and cylinder) would be equivalent to about a 8" auto "barrel" which includes the chamber.

Any weapon in good operating condition is better than nothing. The rest is just preference.

Laughing at oneself and with others is good for the Soul!😊

Well known by whom exactly? What kind of gunfight? Who is involved in this gunfight; military, police, or citizens?

It's not.

As opposed to military concealed carry? I carried the M9 concealed from the time it came to the AF until I retired. Now as a citizen I carry full size pistol daily.

Hogwash.

There is no law whatsoever here in WA that requires concealed carry. I may carry openly, poorly concealed, mostly concealed, and totally concealed all within the same hour.

If concealment isn't required by law, why on earth would I prioritize it higher than how well I can shoot my carry gun? I would rather poorly conceal a gun I shoot well, than completely conceal a small gun I shoot poorly.

As this is entirely dispositive, the rest of your post is moot.

Mainsail; my take on the comment; I think he means stopping power vs a long gun in a rifle caliber.

I do agree with your comment on concealment. Half the folks you see have a bulge on their belt..... a phone or smart device........ and most folks LOL are mostly oblivious to what's going on around them as they are looking at their cell phone or smart device.

First rule of a gunfight is bring a gun.

When I lived in the city and now on the rare occasion I go to the city a .45 is with me (Today a Springfield XDs, back when I live in the city a full size 1911)

Now for just casual carry I am carrying a Ruger LCR .38) Its small and light and I just grab it and the holster and stick in my pocket when leaving house. I'm not a cop I'm not looking for trouble so unless the situation worsens the little gun is what I carry.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

Bam bam you are correct. A handgun beats a knife but not a long gun or shotgun.
As far as concealabity, Virginia is also open carry. So what? I'm talking about carrying a usable handgun that no one knows about.
Carry what you want on your belt. We can and do, I'm talking about carrying the best gun that's not obvious.
I'm not talking about the law.

The miniaturization of handguns has, in some cases, crossed an imaginary line where shootability is seriously compromised. Obtaining a quick grip on a gun that only allows a two-finger grip is much more uncertain than with a three-finger grip. The little finger instantly tells you exactly where you are on the grip.

In calibers like the .45 ACP, barrel length matters. The bullets are more difficult to accelerate and hollow points sometimes have insufficient velocity to perform as advertised. The .380 ACP, generally considered the minimum effective SD cartridge, cannot afford to lose velocity by whittling the barrel down to nothing for pocket carry.

The average citizen does not have as much need for high capacity as would a uniformed police officer who would more likely face determined criminals not likely to back down upon receiving return fire. Hence, the resurgence of both the single-stack semi-auto and the five and six shot revolvers.

I can conceal a LAW rocket under a trench coat, that would not be obvious. OTH a woman, or sometimes a man, can conceal a Desert Eagle in a large enough purse.

Can't remember where, but somewhere overseas a terrorist concealed a semi auto rifle in a beach umbrella. Nobody knew until he started cutting people down.

You are so correct !!!!!! I do believe you could walk around with 2 pearl handle 45's (General Patton Style) and never be noticed by the cell phone addicted textaholic's and game app players everywhere.......

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Hipcocked45

Not always IMO.

Except a handgun has beaten a rifle and/or shotgun (long guns collectively). It may not be optimal, but you use what ya got.

OK, but why is that important? How does someone knowing or not knowing affect your ability to stop the threat if you have to go to guns? If 'usable' is your criteria, then the gun is going to be harder to conceal.

Not trying to beat you up but you're presupposing a lot of false facts and you aren't making a logical argument.

My question remains: If concealment isn't required by law , why on earth would I prioritize it higher when choosing a carry gun?

The choice of the "best weapon" is a little like a game of "Rock-Paper-Scissors"


A rifle is better than a handgun in''stopping" power and at distance

a handgun is better than a knife ( most of the time)

and a knife can be a better weapon than a rifle at bad breath distance.

and so on and so on..............................

Guns in general...
1. If it don't go bang, its just a poorly designed club.
2. If you don't (composure or training) or can't (ergonomics or recoil) hit the target its just a loud noisemaker.
3. If you can hit the target where you aim (ie left eye socket), a 32 s&w is as deadly as a 460 Roland.
4. If you can hit the target where you aim, having four left-over bullets (J frame) is good. Having fourteen doesn't help that much more.
5. Practice makes it easier to hit where you aim.

Specific to consealed carry...
Remember #3

On the job the most .38 special LSWC I needed in a fight was 12, against 3 armed assailants. Duty load was 23. Civilians should be ok with fewer. Say two loaded J frames and 5 loose rounds unless you plan to miss a whole lot.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I see it as a pretty basic thing when it comes to carrying a handgun.

1- carry the weapon. It obviously won't do you much good if you're not carrying it.

2-reliability is the most important fact in a defensive sidearm. You can draw it fast as lightning and get it pointed where it needs to be but if you squeeze off a shot and all you get is a "click" and not a "bang" then it's pretty much pointless.

3- you must be as proficient and accurate as possible with whatever it is you're carrying. One good shot with just about any caliber is likely to save you better than three or four bad placed shots with any whiz bang magical man stopping caliber.

Oh, and the best shot you'll ever have to make in defense of your own life is the one that you never have to take. Situational awareness trumps just about everything when it comes to staying safe.

Shot placement

Shot placement

Shot placement

Caliber be damned

Handguns are inferior to long guns. Do you argue that?

Yes, I will even argue a ice pick is superior to a long gun once jammed into the spine. We call that pithing, a technique used to put animals down for slaughter.

If you get pithed before you can shoot your long gun is worthless. It is not a matter of what, but who wins first.

See post #14

Yes. Situation and functionality must be considered. There are times when a shotgun is superior to a rifle (trench warfare, home defense interior situation), a pistol to a rifle (close confines - and don't do the carbine argument as they are still more unwieldy and most are in pistol caliber these days), and when a rifle is superior. Each must first be reliable for it to be of use.

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Who watches the watchers?

When you start off with that misstatement the rest is likely to go downhill pretty quickly.

With the assumption that you KNOW that you are headed to a gunfight (we will presume it is unavoidable for purposes of discussion) then, naturally, you are going to carry some form of long arm, be it rifle or shotgun.

However, except in the case of certain miscreants these days who have appeared with long arms and ready for war, the chance of an average concealed carry citizen getting into a gun fight is slim and the chance of getting into one with an opponent armed with a long arm is slimmer still. So, even though a handgun is a compromise in many ways, it is still the MOST SUPERIOR method available for us as a means of self defense under normal circumstances on the street.

That said, after reliability, as mentioned above, there is ABILITY, namely, your ability to get your handgun out in a timely manner and then use it effectively.

Which immediately eliminates the 6 inch barreled handgun. Besides the fact that you have to be standing to conceal it there is no easy way to get it out and into action in any kind of reasonable time. If you are long and lean and can even stand having that thing stuck in your pants you will still, as a general rule, not be able to draw it out in the kind of time required to win a gunfight.

Even a 5" service pistol is hard to maneuver if it is carried IWB. OWB is different. If concealment is not an issue that's different, too. But I'm just talking about us average folks in height and width.

That takes me to 4" guns or, better, "compact" pistols or wheelguns at 3.5" or less. Personally, that is where the rubber meets the road for me and I think for most folks.

Reliability.
Accessibility.
ABILITY

After that you can choose caliber. And then any gun beats no gun so if you choose to carry a minor caliber I won't debate the point. It's a gun. A HANDGUN, the one you believe you can use to protect yourself. I'm good with that.

No, I don't, but I sure as hell argue against it. First off, in my state, I am not going to be carrying a rifle, because it is against the law. In most other states, one is not going to be carrying a rifle, because it is stupid for one reason or another. My carried handgun is usually going to be SIGNIFICANTLY superior to a rifle that isn't carried.

IF I were dumb enough to carry a long gun for DEFENSIVE purposes, I might find out the hard way that it is much easier for the surprise offender to take control of my long gun than to take control of my handgun, if I were smart enough to carry one.

Finally, if I were actually to carry a rifle for defensive purposes in an urban environment, we would likely no longer be bull****ting about FMJ versus HP, we would be talking about a SERIOUS and REAL penetration problem. Regardless of the outcome, one should not expect any sympathy for using most rifle cartridges in an urban environment. NO EXCUSE.

Any other questions?

Despite the naysayers, I carry 380ACP primarily and trust it. On a good day I'll have two pistols, one with a reload. They're so light and small, you could forget you're even toting them around. For me, the same can not be said for nearly an other caliber pistol. The round is either too anemic, or the firearm is too large/heavy (for me).

I guess I'll wait for an answer to the single question I asked.

In the meantime, no. Handguns are not inferior to long guns; they are merely a different tool. They can be inferior in many situations, and superior in others. When I'm walking the mean streets of Seattle, the handgun is equal to or greater than any weapon I can reasonably expect to encounter in the hands of a bad guy.

Since he's probably a lot more worried about concealment than I am, it's going to take him longer to present, and it'll likely be a more diminutive gun than my P320 or P229 (in .357).

Could you post/cite your source for this "fact"?

IMHO, the grip width (e.g. single or double stack) needs to be considered, as well.

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Colt 45 M1911/S&W M&P Shield 9

Of late I think I'd rather have a firearm of late than the newest wonder carry pistol. Pattern placement is a hell of a lot easier than shot placement​. Ten 000 Buck pellets are definitely going to make an impression.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Not interested in beating up any young 'uns here....

Just interested in factual discourse and opinions firmly based on facts.

I am wary of Always and Never....

Concealability most important, carry an NAA .22 short or a Colt .25 Auto, I know someone who carries one in his blue jean watch pocket.

Capacity most important, try a 10/22 'pistol' or one of those Czech .32 acp 'pistols' with the 32 round mag.

Caliber? how about a 14" TC Contender in .45-70. 325 grain FTX anyone?

Long gun superior to a pistol? How about a Marlin model 100 (16" single shot .22lr.) vs a Python at 60 feet?

Gun superior to no gun. Average ccw holder with a .25 Raven vs Bruce Lee.

Within the law, where? Hawaii, Kalifornia, Wyoming, New York, Florida? India or Central America (no service calibers)? England (no guns at all)?

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Certified Curmudgeon

To over simplify:
Isn't the determining factor and goal to put as many or an adequate amount of rounds on target as quickly as possible?

an overwhelming % of attacks that require one to defend himself/herself w a firearm will occur within 9-12 feet.

center mass
center mass
face

AMEN

As the old saying goes the indian is always more important than the arrow. If you cannot hit the target, the firearm is worthless.

I always tell people:

Shoot and carry what is reliable after 500 rounds, what you can conceal within your comfort level, what you can shoot one handed, two handed, stationary and on the move the best. Wheelgun or bottom feeder. Who cares?

Don't get all fussed up about caliber.

Thank god we live in America and not in some socialist hellhole that disarms us like Europe. Los Angeles, or New York City

My feeling about what people choose to conceal carry is the same as my feeling about what motorcycle people ride.

It does not matter what you choose, as long as you do it knowledgeably and by definition safely.

Very well said

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Spin The Wheel

I'm sure Lucas McCain would argue these points with you.

That might be a little difficult don't ya think?

Fictional vs reality, just like the fast draw fights on Main St at high noon.

The key to a gunfight is rounds in the ten ring, of whatever caliber, first. Everything else is secondary . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I choose from several different guns. For deep concealment I carry a J frame AIWB. When concealment is not critical I carry a CZ or Shield or 1911 Commander IWB at 3:30.

I practice with all of them. They are all realiable and I can shoot them well, some better than others.

It a set of trade-offs. But I don't overthink it.

Although conceal ability is a concern, especially in states where it is a must like mine. Reliability and accuracy are my first concern. If I can't hit with it or if it jams often, I'm not carrying it. I like big bores and carry them, but if it doesn't hit or work, that .45 or 44 is not going to be in my carry rotation. I just got a great deal on a 6904 and bought it because I liked my 39 and 59 from the 70s. I was a little reluctant to start carrying a 9, but from what I'm hearing this gun is pretty accurate and very reliable. Today's 9mm ammo is supposed to be much better now, so I'm taking the chance.

Patton carried an Ivory handled .45 ( and a .357 RM) only a pimp from a New Orleans whorehouse carries a pearl handled gun

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Retired Career Security Guard

When we are 2' apart yes, I argue that. Much easier to carry a handgun around all day than a rifle so a rifle is inferior because you most likely won't be carrying one.

Once a gun fight breks out a rifle is superior in the majority of cases. IF you have one.

I can agree with much of the original reply, except for this portion. Personally, in a "typical" self defense scenario, the determined criminal that the police may face is most likely the criminal that is viewing the average citizen as exploitable prey. In today's world, we don't know whether the vermin we may encounter in an armed encounter will be a junkie robbing someone so they can get a fix, a bored youth looking for something to do, a rapist, or a Jihadi sympathizer.

I realize that this is not Korea and a fire fight may require a deuce and a half backed up to a hill top loaded with ammo in support. The average citizen has to select their carry gun wisely, picking something that they can handle adequately, that they are comfortable with, and conceal as required by law. For me, that choice could be a Chief's Special, a Mauser HSc, a 439, a 686+ 3", or a 1911 (each with a reload), depending on the conditions and my gut. Remember, your perception of a threat could vary from mine. The bottom line is that we all have to live with the choice of what we carry and when.

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Judge control not gun control!

Oh boy, here we go again.

Ok then, my 2 cents.
The gun must be reliable and able to hit what you aim at.
Everything else is just personal opinion. And we all know about opinions.

This, and what Jeff Cooper called "mindset", which could be interpreted as determination, are more important than any of the rest, in my humble opinion.

The third would be, being intimately familiar with whatever you choose to carry.

I'd rather face a punk with a .45 than a determined man with a .25!

Again, just my .02 worth!

So as not to draw undue attention to yourself? Not alarm people around you? To maintain a level of discretion? To not risk someone taking your firearm away from you by robbery? Out of sight, out of mind of the an armedcriminal.

I still have not found a comfortable method to CCW my six inch Model 19

You have to be profecient w/your EDC and that means regular range time and that gets expensive, but what price do you place on life? Carry a gun that you can handle, research your carry load and go to the range as often as possible. Shooting is a parishable skill.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Just like a few others have said reliability is first and for most. Then for me it's compacity, accuracy and then concelabilty.

Friends don't let friends buy Taurus.

Along the same lines, I read a recent article somewhere online breaking down the statistics of LEOs killed by criminals. It discussed the murders' levels of "training" or familiarity with handguns, distances involved, carry methods, shooting techniques, etc. Don't remember if it was in that article or another where it said that the average number of firearms training hours received by an officer killed in the line of duty was 14 a year. An armed criminal is as much of a threat to a law abiding citizen going armed as they are to police officers. The tactics they've used to murder officers are the same that they have employed on their victims.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That doesn't answer the question though; why would I prioritize total concealment higher than reliability or shoot-ability (hate that word)?

I can't have everything; I cannot carry a rifle or shotgun, I will not carry a .44 magnum, so I have to make compromises- agree?

So if I consider the handguns in my collection I have to choose one that I consider to be the best compromise of one that is (in approx. order)
- a gun that has proven itself reliable
- a gun that has the ergonomics that contribute to my ability to shoot accurately
- a caliber that is effective at performing the task
- comfortable to carry
- a gun that I can draw from a holster well and with repeatability
- has a capacity with which I am comfortable
- is concealable

How you rack-&-stack those priorities is a personal decision. I'm asking why the OP placed concealable as number one.

After a decade of carrying openly and poorly concealing, I have never encountered a single person that was 'alarmed'. Of the people that I know or read about, their actual experience is the same. So why would I want another person's alarm to be such a strong factor that I would compromise the higher priorities?

'Level of discretion' has no bearing on my decision because 'discretion' doesn't help my cause in a mugging; in fact one time it prevented a (an admittedly minor) mugging from happening to me.

Risk of having it taken? Same. It's too rare an occurrence at this time to allow it much sway. That can change of course, and if that were to become a concern on any given outing I can simply adjust my concealment. It may still be poorly concealed but as mentioned by me and others; few are that observant.

Out of sight out of mind? Hey, I watched a guy obviously intent on knocking me down for fun or robbery change his mind when he finally noticed a full sized 1911 on my right side (he approached from the left). That incident makes several points; they ain't looking, deterrence actually does work sometimes, and out of sight would have proven detrimental. You see, I could not have drawn a gun on a guy walking away from me after punching me to the ground and taking my wallet. The only real option would have been to follow him until he got tired of me and came in for the re-attack- not a situation I would ever endorse!

So the question remains: If concealment isn't required, why on earth would I prioritize it higher when choosing a carry gun?

I understand your viewpoints. Everyone has their own "way" when it comes to carrying. However, I think people get too caught up in trivial things while avoiding the really important criteria.

It seems to all be about what caliber, what barrel size, what weight, conceal or open, etc. I often wonder how many people will actually be ready to safely defend themselves if the need arises.

After doing some research and watching live videos of defense situations, I realized the need to be fast and accurate. Meaning if you really want to be prepared for defense, then you need to train for combat. If you can't draw and shoot/hit first, then nothing else matters.

This realization led me to make many changes to how I carry. If you carry a revolver, then SA is out of the question. Better train with DA only. Carry position matters and you can't beat OWB on your hip for quickest acquisition. Forget the use of sights, learn how to shoot by pointing.

I now practice combat shooting, or point shooting, using techniques derived from instructional works created by Applegate, Fairnbairns,and Sykes. No use of sights, just draw, position, and fire. Practice, practice, practice!!!

My 2.5" Python has a highly tuned action with a 7# DA pull. Changed my carry from IWB concealed to OWB open. Changed the original thin service stocks for Karl Nill combat stocks which allow great pointing and control. I no longer shoot SA or with sights. I practice DA only point shooting.

Target shooting at the range will not cut it for defense. So I recommend anyone who carries begin training for real combat, and if your gun/carry style doesn't allow you to be fast and accurate, find something else. Casual range shooting practice will not help you in a defense situation no matter what gun you have.

I keep hearing this fast draw thing, how many times have there been an actual fast draw duel in the middle of the street? If a person has the drop on you, they have the drop on you, no matter how fast it is not going to stop that bullet. This is not the Matrix ya know.

People with little to no firearms training have been successfully defending themselves for a couple centuries with firearms, and no professional training. Not knocking training, just knocking this idea that spending a thousand dollars for a weekend with a ninja is going to save lives.

What does save lives is good thinking skills under pressure, and situational awareness. But few people want to talk about those skills because they do not make them a lot of money.

My advice, stop watching make believe, either in movies, TV, or the tactikewl crowd. Research real life events, and learn. Learn how to keep calm, and think under pressure, any type of pressure. Learn to know what is going on around you, put down the damn cell phone. You see these are the actual skills that will save your life, not caliber size, or manner of carry. Training helps, but it is not a save all, it in some cases can lead to poor decisions. Not every felon follows the Ninja script for crime.