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Old 06-08-2017, 07:47 AM
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Again, from a mailing list to which I belong. I'll admit that it is not clear that there is a connection, but rounds fired have to come down somewhere. If you have the time and ammo to waste on a "warning", it is quite possible that you don't need to shoot. In the alternative, the victim MAY have hit the offender with a shot, and calling it a warning shot presents a potential legal problem for that reason. If one is not confident that it is legally and morally sound to put the rounds into high center mass, the face, etc. - DON'T SHOOT is the right answer.

Most likely the better answer for such a scenario is letting your land sharks out to address the problem, and a good fence is a good start, too.

Those Pesky Warning Shots: Riverhead NY] Police are investigating a reported burglary and the possible link between a “warning shot” fired by the River Road homeowner and a shooting victim who was taken to Stony Brook from a Calverton Hills condominium late last night. A River Road resident yesterday afternoon reported someone had broken into his shed and stole tools, according to Riverhead Town Police. A police report was filed documenting the incident. Then just before 10 p.m. last night, the resident called police again to report that a man was burglarizing the shed. Upon police arrival, the owner of the residence reported that he went outside with a shotgun and fired a warning shot at the burglar, according to the police report. The burglar fled and he followed the subject to the Calverton Hills area of Calverton, the homeowner told police. A short time later the Suffolk County Police Department was contacted and advised that there was a victim of a shooting in Calverton Hills, Riverhead Police said. He was transported to Stony Brook Hospital for treatment of non-life-threatening injuries. There is an ongoing investigation to determine if the two incidents are linked. (This report is over a week old but seems worth sharing as a reminder not to fire “warning shots” nor to claim that an otherwise justifiable shooting was intended only as a “warning shot.”)
River Road resident reports burglary, fires shot at burglar | RiverheadLOCAL
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:08 AM
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Well put Doug. Don't fire unless you need to stop and immediate threat. And in that case the threat is the target. Some people seem to forget that they are responsible for where their projectiles end up.
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:11 AM
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I hadn't heard the story, though it is fifty miles from me.Additional facts would help.
The owner would probably be in jail already if he used other than a shotgun.Rifle use is forbidden on Long Island and pistol permits are very specific about their use.-Only to protect life in non retreatable circumstances or to protect someone being raped/attacked, NOT property. I would assume that he faces the same legality situation with the shotgun.

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Old 06-08-2017, 09:16 AM
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While I'm in agreement that *generally* warning shots are a no go, I am hesitant to be dogmatic and say "always" a no go, because for every RULE there seems to always arise an exception.

I recall reading a story (perhaps here on the forum) of a man whose wife was out for a walk and came under attack by a neighbors dog. He heard her screaming, and as he ran out of the house - gun in hand, he realized they were too far away for a pistol shot, so as he ran toward them he fired a shot into the ground (near him, not them) hoping the noise would scare the dog off, or at least maybe draw his attention away from the wife.

Perhaps you wouldn't call that a "warning shot", but it is in essence the same, and I see no harm in the action that he took, given the situation.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
While I'm in agreement that *generally* warning shots are a no go, I am hesitant to be dogmatic and say "always" a no go, because for every RULE there seems to always arise an exception.

I recall reading a story (perhaps here on the forum) of a man whose wife was out for a walk and came under attack by a neighbors dog. He heard her screaming, and as he ran out of the house - gun in hand, he realized they were too far away for a pistol shot, so as he ran toward them he fired a shot into the ground (near him, not them) hoping the noise would scare the dog off, or at least maybe draw his attention away from the wife.

Perhaps you wouldn't call that a "warning shot", but it is in essence the same, and I see no harm in the action that he took, given the situation.
I do not see the shot into to ground as a warning shot. It was an attempt to drive off an attacking animal while closing distance in approaching the attack. It was done carefully by shooting into the nearby ground. Seems pretty safe to me. If it was effective, great. If not, no harm done except to the ground.

I agree with the OP that warning shots are a no no. I say that even if they are fired into the ground next to the shooter. Reason is that never draw your gun unless there is near certainty you will have to use it. If that condition exists and you draw, do not take the gun off target. It could get you killed. The appearance of the gun is warning enough to the bad guy.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:59 AM
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Warning shots are a liability. Not all self defense involves a bad guy. Sometimes it is an animal. Not all animals understand gunfire to be a bad thing. Do you really want to have one less round available to deal with a problem? If you're considering warning shots you have not committed to killing your opponent. Get a stick or a shovel they are more versatile. They don't make noises which cause people who want explanations to appear after the fact.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
Warning shots are a liability. Not all self defense involves a bad guy. Sometimes it is an animal. Not all animals understand gunfire to be a bad thing. Do you really want to have one less round available to deal with a problem? If you're considering warning shots you have not committed to killing your opponent. Get a stick or a shovel they are more versatile. They don't make noises which cause people who want explanations to appear after the fact.
Ok, to counter your statement, let's say you don't have a stick or have time to stop and pick one up? But you are carrying a gun.

Not disagreeing with your statement. But sometimes we have to work with what we have immediately available to us.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:16 AM
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I wouldn't. My agency allowed them up until the mid 80's but no more. Your responsible for every round so if your justified to use it,.. use it. Use every other option before you do is all I say.
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:38 AM
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We were taught to never fire warning shots, and never to fire at vehicles.
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:03 PM
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Warning shots are something Hollywood invented. It's like telling someone you are going to punch them. I can understand a shot across the bow at sea..but in a personal conflict,no way am I giving anyone a chance to shoot first...
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:17 PM
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You mean to imply that Vice President Biden was wrong?

"If there's ever a problem," Biden said he told his wife, Jill, "just walk out on the balcony here--walk out, put that double barrel shot gun and fire two blasts outside the house -- I promise you whoever is coming in ... You don't need an AR-15, it's harder to aim, it's harder to use...Buy a shotgun! Buy a shotgun!"
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:18 PM
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Warning shots are, by definition, the discharge of a firearm when no IMMEDIATE danger exists. These shots also have the bad habit of doing property damage or injuring or killing people. In addition, many times (I suspect) a person will be bothered by the fact that they shot someone and then say, after the fact, "I fired a warning shot. I didn't mean to hit him." That, of course, is exactly the WRONG thing to say, even if it is true. As noted above a few posts there are, on rare occasion, instances when a warning shot can be fired safely and when it MAY be appropriate to do so. Those instances are few and far between.
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:21 PM
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It is a trite, thread-bare, heavily trodden phrase, but one I adhere to:

"Every round you fire has a lawyer attached to it."
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:35 PM
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A long time ago an off duty cop from my agency fired a warning shot at a burgler in his neighborhood, making an apprehension. We had an absolute no warning shots policy and he was fired. The community reacted angrily and put pressure on the city council so he was rehired. IMHO using a gun to warn or intimidate is always a fools errand but I suppose there are exceptions. That said his firing had a lasting impact on me and I doubt, almost 50 years later, I'd do anything like that. Like was posted earlier that bullet will land somewhere and that can be very dangerous to innocent people in a densly populated area like where I live.
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:28 PM
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I agree that the shot in the ground to scare an attacking dog is far and away different from a foolish warning shot. It was only last year, I think, that some young people gathered in front of a guy's house, I don't recall why, and the genius homeowner came out through his garage with a shotgun and fired a warning shot. The young man he hit was not a direct physical threat even if he shouldn't have been gathering in front of this homeowner's house. Incredibly stupid.

If you feel compelled to warn someone that you might shoot them I guess you just should tell them. Then - PERHAPS - you can fire away if the threat persists. But if the threat was that bad the correct way to handle it is not through a verbal discussion of the matter.

This reminds me of Tuco's warning:


When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.

(c) YouTube

This discussion also reminds me of a scene from the TV show of a year or two back called "Justified". The lawman star of the show is shadowed by two shooters who want to kill him. They are on the street when he says:

"You take one more step, I'll shoot you. That's all I'm gonna say."

Now THAT is a warning shot!

The button man takes another step and BLAM! I seem to recall him saying "You shot me" and the reply was "I said I would if you took another step".

Again, when you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:38 PM
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Like was posted earlier that bullet will land somewhere and that can be very dangerous to innocent people in a densly populated area like where I live.
Recall the incident a number of years ago wherein a female cop tried to shoot a [non-poisonous] snake out of a tree(!).

She missed, killing a young boy a block or two away, whom she never saw.

Bullets that miss their targets... or which ricochet off of hard surfaces don't go into a parallel dimension. They keep going in this one until something, like a child's body, stop them.

I've been threatend by people, never yet by the ground. If somebody's an immediate and credible threat to my life and limb, I'll shoot THEM not the ground.
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:46 PM
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As I recall from my License to Carry class, warning shots are illegal in Texas. You have to be aiming at the threat when you pull the trigger.
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Old 06-08-2017, 04:14 PM
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As I recall from my License to Carry class, warning shots are illegal in Texas. You have to be aiming at the threat when you pull the trigger.
Okay, this aggravates me but I am not attacking you personally.
Nobody told you that in your CHL class. Or, more to the point, nobody should have stated that as the law in Texas. There is no Texas statute with respect to warning shots. However, there are statutes that by implication could be taken to be ban on warning shots.

For instance - and this is from a Texas authorized public website so you can look the statute up anytime you are in the mood:

Quote:
TEXAS PENAL CODE

TITLE 9. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND DECENCY

CHAPTER 42. DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND RELATED OFFENSES

Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:

(4) abuses or threatens a person in a public place in an obviously offensive manner;

(5) makes unreasonable noise in a public place other than a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code, or in or near a private residence that he has no right to occupy;

(6) fights with another in a public place;

(7) discharges a firearm in a public place other than a public road or a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code;

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

(9) discharges a firearm on or across a public road;
Warning shots, per se, are not described in the statute. You have to be a fool to fire one, but that's what this discussion is about in the first instance. As a Texas lawyer and CHL (now LTC) instructor I take great umbrage at the Penal Code being wrongly cited. Nothing personal. Except against your instructor, my friend, who clearly told you something that is not stated in the law.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:16 PM
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Default Being pissed off is the last reason.....

Being pissed off is the last reason to pull a gun. If it's pulled out it is going to be used.

A guy got in an altercation on a highway with a bunch of 'people' who kicked him around. There was no fighting going on when he got a gun from his wife and fired a shot into the ground.

That pretty much killed any chance of charges against the others because he was then 'the bad guy'.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:35 PM
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Old client of mine (he's dead now) called up in trouble. Some guy was pissing him off on the highway and he pulled up along side him, stuck his GP100 out the window and let lose a round in the air. He was genuinely surprised that he got arrested-in his words "If I wanted to shoot him, I woulda shot him. I just wanted to get his attention" in a heavy cajun brougue. Got him off with a disturbing the peace but he lost his gun---and he was pissed about that I didn't ask who got the gun

But lordy could this guy cook!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:03 PM
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I have a friend who was then new to CCW when he got into a road rage thing w/another driver. I had to remind him he was "carrying" and had a moral obligation not to make things worse. Besides, I did not want to be forced into a position to back his play if things went to guns. We were both in our 60s then and much too old to be acting like this.
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:43 PM
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Given the legal situation and the practical risk, warning shots should simply not be on your menu. In very specialized circumstances, like with animals that are not coming at you directly and which you have good reason not to harm, there may be exceptions.

Be aware that this here is an American view of things. In other countries, warning shots before using aimed deadly force are not just allowed, but may be required by law, unless you can explain afterwards why there was no opportunity or no time for one. Having talked to European police officers, they were usually surprised that US officers are often not permitted to fire warning shots.
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:49 PM
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New York City Police fire a lot of warning shots, or they just can't hit the broad side of a barn.

OK all joking aside, not only warning shots are a no-no so is spray, and pray. A miss should be treated just the same as a warning shot.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TAROMAN View Post
You mean to imply that Vice President Biden was wrong?

"If there's ever a problem," Biden said he told his wife, Jill, "just walk out on the balcony here--walk out, put that double barrel shot gun and fire two blasts outside the house -- I promise you whoever is coming in ... You don't need an AR-15, it's harder to aim, it's harder to use...Buy a shotgun! Buy a shotgun!"
I kinda miss the folksy wisdom of ol' "Plugs". Just kiddin'.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:48 PM
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I have fired warning shots numerous times in my life to scare off packs of wild dogs. Yeah, I live in Georgia. so we have that kind of thing around here. I really don't want to kill a half dozen dogs because I like dogs, but they can be a problem. A bullet fired up in the air will come down, but not at a speed any greater than a pellet of hail falling from the sky. We've all been hit by those. . .at least here in Georgia. They hurt, but that's about it. I did read once that a penny dropped from the top of the Empire State Building could kill a person on the ground. It would attain maximum speed way before hitting the ground. They told us that when I was growing up as a kid in New York to keep us from throwing things off the roofs of buildings. . .which we did anyway. Maybe it's true. I should add that you always fire a warning shot straight up in the air so it will be reduced to a simple falling object when it returns to earth. I've actually been hit by shotgun pellets coming back down. Kind of like a hard rain.
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Old 06-09-2017, 08:06 AM
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I have fired warning shots numerous times in my life to scare off packs of wild dogs. Yeah, I live in Georgia. so we have that kind of thing around here. I really don't want to kill a half dozen dogs because I like dogs, but they can be a problem. A bullet fired up in the air will come down, but not at a speed any greater than a pellet of hail falling from the sky. We've all been hit by those. . .at least here in Georgia. They hurt, but that's about it. I did read once that a penny dropped from the top of the Empire State Building could kill a person on the ground. It would attain maximum speed way before hitting the ground. They told us that when I was growing up as a kid in New York to keep us from throwing things off the roofs of buildings. . .which we did anyway. Maybe it's true.
If you didn't fire warning shots there wouldn't be packs of wild dogs roaming around. Do you think that there are good Samaritans with hotdog stands feeding them? No, they scavenge and hunt for food. All well and good until you become the food.

If the projectile never leaves the ballistic arc you can kill someone sight unseen at great distance. Only if it completely stops and then free falls is the bullet less than lethal. Still could hurt like hell.

Where exactly in Georgia? Sounds like Quigley Down Under...dingos everywhere and everybody throwing bullets around... LOL
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Old 06-09-2017, 12:14 PM
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Really good advice. Another dumb move is to pursue the intruder. Once you do that, you are no longer acting in self-defense but are attempting (I assume) a citizens' arrest. something that most lawyers strongly advise against. Also, NY is not a stand-your-ground state. There is an obligation to retreat (except inside your residence) if it can be done with complete safety.

The intruder was breaking into a tool shed, which, I think, is simple trespassing. Deadly force is usually not justified to prevent or deter a pure property crime.

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Old 06-09-2017, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
Okay, this aggravates me but I am not attacking you personally.
Nobody told you that in your CHL class. Or, more to the point, nobody should have stated that as the law in Texas. There is no Texas statute with respect to warning shots. However, there are statutes that by implication could be taken to be ban on warning shots.

For instance - and this is from a Texas authorized public website so you can look the statute up anytime you are in the mood:



Warning shots, per se, are not described in the statute. You have to be a fool to fire one, but that's what this discussion is about in the first instance. As a Texas lawyer and CHL (now LTC) instructor I take great umbrage at the Penal Code being wrongly cited. Nothing personal. Except against your instructor, my friend, who clearly told you something that is not stated in the law.
This seems kinda confusing:

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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
(7) discharges a firearm in a public place other than a public road or a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code;
Taken literally, you can't fire a gun in self defense either, unless you're on a public road or at a sport shooting range. I see no exception for discharging a firearm in self defense . . .
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Old 06-09-2017, 08:13 PM
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If it's not present or specifically allowed (odd, but most state codes are miserably-written) then the "doctrine of competing harms" comes into play.

Let's say you get lost in the woods in summer. You stumble around for two days, hungry and dehydrated, before you come across a cabin. You break in, drink some water, eat some food, and use a telephone to call for help.

Would you expect to be arrested for burglarizing the cabin when help arrives? Of course not. The harm of not breaking into the cabin (risk of death) far outweighs the harm of committing burglary.
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Old 06-09-2017, 09:56 PM
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So last night I had the opportunity to discuss this topic with one of my retired cop buddies. He generally agreed that warning shots are problematic for many of the reasons given here, but he also cautioned against being too absolute and excluding options.

One of his observations was (and I definitely see this reading through this thread again), that civilian "gun guys" get overly fixated on situations where they face determined armed attackers meaning to kill them. In such a scenario, warning shots obviously would be dangerous nonsense. Statistically, however, that's a fairly small percentage of actual situations both for cops and civilian gun owners.

Ambiguous, confused situations involving trespassers, burglars which may be armed or unarmed, muggers, or overly aggressive people, maybe verbal disputes that escalate, are much more common. And then things aren't so clear-cut. Escalating straight to aimed deadly force may not be as easy and straightforward as you think it will be.

People generally don't doubt that a cop's gun is real and that he'll shoot if necessary. Not so with civilians. My friend referred to several cases of (non-fatal) defensive shootings where the shot aggressor's explanation was along the lines of "I didn't think the gun was real" or "I didn't think he'd pull the trigger". Especially when facing an unarmed aggressor, a warning shot into a safe backstop like soft soil, if safely possible, might convince him and terminate the threat without injury.

So as my friend said, obviously don't fire wild shots, but keep your options open. No matter how righteous you feel about using aimed deadly force, you don't want the hassle if you can avoid it.

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Old 06-09-2017, 10:04 PM
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If your life or the life of a family member is seriously threatened, a warning shot between the eyes is very effective.
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Old 06-09-2017, 11:15 PM
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Old 06-09-2017, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
Okay, this aggravates me but I am not attacking you personally.
Nobody told you that in your CHL class. Or, more to the point, nobody should have stated that as the law in Texas. There is no Texas statute with respect to warning shots. However, there are statutes that by implication could be taken to be ban on warning shots.

For instance - and this is from a Texas authorized public website so you can look the statute up anytime you are in the mood:



Warning shots, per se, are not described in the statute. You have to be a fool to fire one, but that's what this discussion is about in the first instance. As a Texas lawyer and CHL (now LTC) instructor I take great umbrage at the Penal Code being wrongly cited. Nothing personal. Except against your instructor, my friend, who clearly told you something that is not stated in the law.
That's why I said, "As I recall...'. Thanks for clearing that up. The class was 2 1/2 years ago and your post did jog my memory in another regard -- I took notes during the class but had forgotten all about them. After some rummaging, I found them. Here are the relevant portions of my notes, verbatim:

"Use of force
...
Retreat is always the best option, if available. Though TX [law] says there is "no duty" to retreat, it's best to do so anyway. ... 'Warning shot' means you had a chance to retreat. [Implying that there still could be legal problems if you take the shot.]
...
Home break-in. Castle law allows you to assume that break-ins intend to do you harm. Even attempting to enter justifies deadly force. They don't have to be inside. But don't shoot until you've Id'd the target. (Warning shots are illegal in TX)"

I don't think I would have put that in my notes, unless the instructor had said it. However I can't completely discount the possibility that I inferred that from the presentation, which also included the following case study:

During the home break-in presentation, the instructor told about a case where a homeowner fired a high warning shot through his front door when someone pounded on it late at night. It turned out the guy at the front door was very tall, and the shot went through his head, killing him. It also turned out that the deceased was the teenage son of the next door neighbor who was extremely drunk, and apparently thought he was at his own house. Legal stuff ensued.

Legal, or not, I got the message that warning shots are a bad idea.
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Old 06-10-2017, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
People generally don't doubt that a cop's gun is real and that he'll shoot if necessary. Not so with civilians. My friend referred to several cases of (non-fatal) defensive shootings where the shot aggressor's explanation was along the lines of "I didn't think the gun was real" or "I didn't think he'd pull the trigger". Especially when facing an unarmed aggressor, a warning shot into a safe backstop like soft soil, if safely possible, might convince him and terminate the threat without injury.

So as my friend said, obviously don't fire wild shots, but keep your options open. No matter how righteous you feel about using aimed deadly force, you don't want the hassle if you can avoid it.
In most places, a warning shot is considered deadly force. There is no distinction about whether you meant to hit an individual or not. Just the same as how brandishing results in an assault charge. If you can't justify shooting someone, you usually can also not justify shooting in their general direction.

Thus, the warning shot is a catch-22. Either the danger is grave and imminent and thus demands use of immediate deadly force, or the danger is not imminent, in which case deadly force is not permitted.

If you're concerned about getting your point across, there's a wealth of information out there on the subject, covering everything from body language (both reading, as well as using body language to communicate your message), to verbage, to movement.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:03 AM
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I administer several warning shots a week into targets on my property. So far it has helped immensely...crime is way down. Nothing says go away like a shotgun blast or magazine dump at oh dark how about right now! Some nights I need a whole box of shells to get back to sleep. Just so they know I'm not a tacticool bird hunter I leave the patterns and groups in cardboard lying in the driveway. You wouldn't believe how safe the neighborhood is. The n'er-do-wells have all been rehabilitated or moved on, but we all know rehabilitation is a never ending process.

This is not advocating warning shots in any kind of confrontation. This is just a humorous poking of fun at this stupid idea. Do call ahead before visiting...
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:17 AM
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Another member here fired a warning shot during a dog attack. I gave him a hard time and others did as well.

But now having experienced the same, I can't say that I too thought about doing the same.

A few years ago I arrived home from the shooting range. I sat down to lunch and a few minutes later I heard a lot of screaming outside. I stood up and looked out the window and saw two dogs fighting. Several people were there trying to break up the fight.

Dog #1 was the attacker. Dog #2 was on a leash being walked by it's owner. In a matter a seconds dog #1 grabbed #2 by the throat and would not let go. I put my house slippers on and went out the front door. On the way out I grabbed a baton style stun gun.

As I ran the 50 or so yards I saw the owner of dog #2 hit dog #1 on top of the head with his fist. Dog #2 let go and bit the owner on the upper arm which resulted in a wound that was bleeding profusely. Dog #1 then resumed his attack on dog #2 by grabbing by the throat again.

As I closed in a turned the stun gun on. When I got close enough I put the stun gun on dog #1 rear end and pushed the button. The dog jumped straight up about 6 feet and then ran off. He ran about 40 yards and immediately turned around and came back towards us.

I was still armed after returning from the range. For a brief second I considered drawing and shooting the dog. I had a good clear backstop. Everyone was behind me. I decided against it because the dogs owner was there as well as her three little girls all under the age of 7. The owners of the attacking dog tried to separate the dogs earlier but at 5' 2" and a hundred pounds, she was unsuccessful.

As the dog closed the distance I pushed the button on the stun gun to deter him. Nothing. The batteries were gone. So I drew my gun and dropped to a knee. The dog sensed that things may no longer be in his favor and stopped.

I heard two sirens. One ambulance and the second cops. I put my gun away and let them handle things. Nobody mentioned my gun. I then became a witness.

Of all thing the owner of dog #1 got a TICKET! The dog was allowed to remain at home. A week later the same dog attacked a woman walking her dog and was severely mauled and her dog killed. Dog #1 was euthanized.

If I didn't have the stun gun, I may well have fired a warning shot into the grass instead of trying to shoot a dog that was running towards me and hoping that hit it with one or more rounds.

Where two legged attackers are involved, no, I believe they are a liability. But animals that are hell bent on attacking are very difficult to deter and either don't understand verbal commands or just ignore them altogether.

So, In the same situation, yes I may fire a warning shot. Am I wrong? Maybe.

Sorry for the long story and the dog #1 and 2 bit. I don't want to state the breed of dogs to start another argument.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:19 AM
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...fired a warning shot at the burglar,...
This is important phrasing. As far as I'm concerned, if the home owner wasn't in fear of death or great bodily harm, this is attempted murder.

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Originally Posted by badge View Post
Your responsible for every round so if your justified to use it,.. use it.
This is the important factor. You are responsible for every round that comes out of your gun. If you kill/injure someone, it had better be in self-defense.

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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
Taken literally, you can't fire a gun in self defense either, unless you're on a public road or at a sport shooting range. I see no exception for discharging a firearm in self defense . . .
Well, you would have to read the whole law...
Quote:
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(4) that the actor had significant provocation for his abusive or threatening conduct.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:26 AM
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Dog #1 was the attacker. Dog #2 was on a leash being walked by it's owner.

A week later the same dog attacked a woman walking her dog and was severely mauled and her dog killed. Dog #1 was euthanized.
You should have shot the dog. You were being assaulted, it had already seriously injured one man and you would have been justified in being in fear of great bodily harm. The later actions of the dog prove that you would have been justified. Of course you couldn't know that at the time.

He who hesitates is lost. We are generally good people and don't want to harm others. Because of this we hesitate. That hesitation is something bad guys, and animals, use to their advantage. It always costs the good guy.

A warning shot would not have been justified. A center mass shot would have been.

I'm sorry this happened and I wish it hadn't, but it could have been much worse for you. I'm glad it wasn't.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:36 AM
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You should have shot the dog. You were being assaulted, it had already seriously injured one man and you would have been justified in being in fear of great bodily harm. The later actions of the dog prove that you would have been justified. Of course you couldn't know that at the time.

He who hesitates is lost. We are generally good people and don't want to harm others. Because of this we hesitate. That hesitation is something bad guys, and animals, use to their advantage. It always costs the good guy.

A warning shot would not have been justified. A center mass shot would have been.

I'm sorry this happened and I wish it hadn't, but it could have been much worse for you. I'm glad it wasn't.
Your're probably right. My immediate thoughts were the little girls. It was their beloved dog that about to be shot. And I had concerns about hitting a running dog with a frontal area about half the same of a grown man. I'm sure I could have. But as you said, I hesitated.
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Old 06-10-2017, 01:09 PM
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ISCS Yoda

If you would please, could you clarify item #7 which quotes Section 250.001 Local Gov Code, vs the original title of Texas Penal Code.

Is the Local Government Code thrown in with the Texas Penal Code?

Item #7 seems to be something added to the Texas Code.


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Old 06-10-2017, 01:37 PM
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As the old general rule of thumb goes - never point your muzzle at anything you do not intend to destroy or kill. I always add a follow up - "and don't pull the trigger unless you are prepared to deal with any and all consequences."

Of course, at a range (or other similar setup), that area is kind of designed for you to destroy something (i.e. the target) - but even there you have to be careful where that muzzle is pointing. You want to hit the target - not something (or, worse, someone) that you're not suppose to hit.
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Old 06-10-2017, 02:06 PM
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I view warning shots, and missing the threat as the same. They are both dangerous, and should not happen.

I believe generally that if a person is justified but misses their threat they will not be prosecuted, as long as they do not injure an innocent. A good friend and attorney once told me when having simular discussions "you are either justified, or you are not".

So an unarmed person who is justified to use deadly force, but does not, it does not limit their ability to do so if armed. If they are armed with a cane, and raise the cane to warn the attacker they are justified, as long as they are justified. It does not matter if they hit the threat, if they strike a child by missing the threat with the cane they are sill responsible.

I believe in liberty, personal choice, and responsibility. If you are going to take any shot YOU are responsible if that shot causes property damage, or injures another that was not the threat. If it is legal, and can be done safely, and the shooter is clearly justified it is their personal decision at the time. It doesn't matter what I think, as a general rule people tend to ignore other people's opinion, and do what they want.

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Old 06-10-2017, 03:20 PM
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I'd guess that the general prohibition on shooting in certain areas referred to in the Texas statute cited is limited by the defense of necessity, and I sure as heck would not worry about it.

As for: "We were taught to never fire warning shots, and never to fire at vehicles.", I have two thoughts. One is that YES, as pointed out by others, there may be some odd circumstance in which a warning shot is not completely stupid, but I still doubt one will ever be wrong if they never fire a warning shot. I do recall a discussion on here a couple years back in which someone who simply was not prepared to use lethal force was advocating for warning shots as an option, and if I replied, I am sure I had to work hard to avoid getting banned.

As for not firing at vehicles, while there are always tactical considerations (crowding, etc.), a blanket prohibition of that nature is so Stucking Fupid that the the administrator in question cannot be redeemed, and the only response is a Loudermill hearing, a trespass notice, and a guardianship. The excellent discussion of such in Patrick and Hall's book refutes it well. There is a reason (many, actually) that I see we need a "Snopes" for command officers.
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:42 PM
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My immediate thoughts were the little girls.
And you were right to think about that. It's what separates the good guys from the bad.

Don't think for one second that I'm "Monday morning quarterbacking" this and trying to say you made some horrible mistake. You made a split second decision and things went OK for you. It's not your fault that the dog went on to attack someone else.

I think it's far to easy for us to sit here and critique situations we weren't involved in. Here is my all time favorite quote and I think it applies to what we're talking about:

“In marching, in mobs, in football games, and in war, outlines become vague; real things become unreal and a fog creeps over the mind. Tension and excitement, weariness, movement--all merge in one great gray dream, so that when it is over, it is hard to remember how it was when you killed men or ordered them to be killed. Then other people who were not there tell you what it was like and you say vaguely, 'yes, I guess that's how it was.'” ― John Steinbeck, The Moon Is Down

You came out OK and saved at least one person from serious injury. I wasn't there. I can only speculate. You didn't fire a warning shot and I don't think it would have helped anyway. Ya done good my friend.
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:58 PM
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Warning shots are something Hollywood invented. It's like telling someone you are going to punch them. I can understand a shot across the bow at sea..but in a personal conflict,no way am I giving anyone a chance to shoot first...
Almost like shooting a firearm out of the BG's hand, another Hollywood fallacy, and some still think racking the slide on a 12ga would send a BG high on drugs scurrying away if fear. I don't do warning shoots, if something calls for a warning shot I would use pepper spray first, as I carry both, and there would seem there was no need for deadly force. The situation would dictate what I went for first. Deadly force would be a firearm, having time to react to a non life threating, animal attack, threat pepper spray.
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Old 06-10-2017, 08:31 PM
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Almost like shooting a firearm out of the BG's hand, another Hollywood fallacy,...
Not really a fantasy...


This video has some corny commentary, but it really happened.
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Old 06-10-2017, 08:37 PM
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Not really a fantasy...

Sniper shoots gun from criminal's hand - YouTube

This video has some corny commentary, but it really happened.
I am sorry, but I think I clearly saw the word sniper. As in using a rifle designed for precision shooting. Sheeeesh.
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Old 06-10-2017, 08:38 PM
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InsideWaist InsideWaist is offline
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Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go  
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
This video has some corny commentary, but it really happened.
Yeah it does. "Take that you gun-toting hippie!" LOL!

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Old 06-10-2017, 08:42 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
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Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go  
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Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
I am sorry, but I think I clearly saw the word sniper. As in using a rifle designed for precision shooting. Sheeeesh.
Patterning, where the subject does an action in a predictable cadence and the shot can be timed according to the repeated action. That's how the "sniper" did it. At those distances they are sharpshooters or marksmen at best.
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Old 06-10-2017, 09:38 PM
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Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go Why "warning shots" are a no-go  
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Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
Patterning, where the subject does an action in a predictable cadence and the shot can be timed according to the repeated action. That's how the "sniper" did it. At those distances they are sharpshooters or marksmen at best.
IIRC the subject was sitting in his chair pretty much not moving at the time. At the distance that the sniper took the shot it would be pretty easy for most shooters with the right rifle. Heck the old Marlin 336 I had could shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards from a rest. There are varmint hunters that take these shots at 200 yards or more. I think a much less than 100 yard shot with a precision rifle, and a trained officer is not indicative of drawing a handgun fast draw, and shooting the gun out of the opponents hand. I think that kind of reasoning is~~well silly.
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