Had dinner with a neighbor, a criminal defense lawyer, who recently started carrying. He just completed a training course so we talked about it. He was a bit confused about the term "center mass" since he was led to believe that it means anywhere on the torso. I took polite exception to his instructor's position, and I offered a narrower description of the term.

I said center mass was the thoracic area of the torso, the place where the vital organs and the major circulatory vessels are located. Pulling up some images from the web, I showed him what I meant. Then I thought this topic might be of interest to others who are interested.

In the Corps I learned center mass to be an area from the clavicle bones down to the bottom of the central rib cage (10th rib). That is the space in which the lungs, heart, and major veins and arteries are housed. I have posted a photo showing what is where in that space. You will see that it a life sustaining center.

The thoracic cavity is divided by the sternum (breast bone), which is about 6 inches long, tapers from about 2 inches at the top to less than 1 inch at the bottom, and is only about 1/4 inch thick. A very hard punch to the sternum can fracture it, and that can be an incapacitating injury. It can even stop the heart if the force is heavy enough.

The ribs attach to the sternum by cartilage, softer than bone. The ribs are not very thick. The sternum, cartilage, and ribs can easily be penetrated by even the 22 LR. On either side of the sternum are the lungs. A punctured lung will usually incapacitate a person in short order. To the left of the sternum and just above the bottom of the rib cage lies the heart. A shot there is incapacitating if not lethal. Proceeding down from the clavicle bones are the subclavian arteries and veins, and proceeding up are the jugular veins and carotid arteries. A hit on any of those vessels will end up in bleeding out and quick loss of consciousness due to extreme blood pressure drop.

With the above in mind I explain why you should aim for the sternum and consider it as the center of center mass. Referencing the picture will help you see the subtleties. If you aim at the sternum and miss it, you still are target rich. Hit either side of it and you hit a lung. Hit low and to the target's left you might hit the heart. Hit high left or right and you might hit a major blood vessel. But what happens if you hit very high?

Assuming that you stay centered a high miss of the sternum will hit either the throat or the mouth. Both are very unprotected areas. A bullet can pass through them relatively easily compared to dense muscle tissue or bone. The benefit of such a hit is that there's a good chance the bullet is going to pass into the spinal column or very close to it. That can vary from lethal to crippling.

I learned these things in 1967 after my second tour in Nam in the infantry. I went to recon training. We had to learn how to gunfight with the M1911. What you just read was part of that training. I just thought it might be good to offer it for anyone who might be interested.

[IMG][/IMG]

The spinal cord is in the center of mass as well as the large nerves that branch off from it. Of course the heart, but also the aorta and superior and inferior vena cava, the pulmonary arteries and veins and the carotid arteries that go to the neck and head. The liver has large blood vessels that can cause heavy bleeding. A hit to these areas can cause an immediate stop.

Tell your friend to look at the markings in a standard silhouette target. The center and '9' areas are the center of mass on a human torso. As you go farther out from the center of mass the less sure to neutralize an attack.

The upper chest and abdomen have these same structures and can produce a quick 'stop'.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Knowing where to shoot OTHER then center mass I believe is as important to know as where in center mass to aim ..

If you shoot center mass and are sure of hits but they have no effect the Perp could be either wearing armor or is high on a drug of some sort .. then being able to go either up to head shots or down to the pelvic region which is slightly larger area then the head and will cause a person to be unable to stand or use of their legs if hit there ..

Also in todays world they could be wearing an explosive vest center mass that you might not want to fire at either !! So other areas need to be practiced also !

agreed.
* center mass
* center mass
* face

I agree. Another scenario that foils center mass aim is when the bad guy is behind cover. You get to shoot for the arms and head when he pops up or out. That is why I practice quick target acquisition and fire on a bullseye target.

As a young EMT, I remember getting a call out to a bar where two of the patrons had been involved in a fight. Upon arrival, one of the combatants was seated on the curb in front of the bar. He was holding his head and moaning, but still very much alive. The other guy was inside of the bar and was literally wearing what remained of a bar stool. He was deader than Julius Caesar, so we turned our attention to the living victim. What we found was the stuff horror movies are made of. He had suffered multiple gun shot wounds to the face, and the bullets had literally made his face a bloody mess. The bullets had fractured most of the facial bones, but had not resulted in any fatal wounds. We administered first aid, and as I recall, the victim climbed into the ambulance on his own steam.

I remember being stunned that the victim had survived multiple gun shot wounds to the face, and I mentioned this to one of the police officers at the scene. He told me "...kid, ya gotta get your head out of your backside if you're gonna carry a gun." He then explained about what he referred to as "the fatal T" - an area on the head comprised of the eyes, and then bisected in the middle by the nose, and extending downwards to the chin. He told me if you wanted to kill someone by shooting them in the face, then you should target the "fatal T".

By the way, I unfortunately don't know the caliber of the weapon used - I never saw it. Turns out that according to witnesses, the shooter started the fight, then pulled out a handgun and started shooting. The victim then beat him to death with a bar stool. I don't know what happened to the victim once we delivered him to the ER, but I know I wouldn't want to mess with a guy like that.

RichardW - thank you for posting this information about the center of center mass, and thank you very much for your service to our great country.

Regards,

Dave

Not face..HEAD.

i practice Mozambique drills, but I doubt I could pull it off in most cases under real stress.

And if the center of mass doesn't work don't keep shooting:

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I look at center of mass as center of what I can see to shoot.

I'm not suggesting fingers or toes but knees or elbows getting shot may change a bad guys mind about continuing an attack...

Of course high-center chest shots are what we want to go for but all hits count...the more the better

Good info for us all here, keep it coming.

Comments have been saying to shoot a certain place either center mass or else where .. some very good comments but none may be that useful in the real world !!

Remember its very likely in a self defense situation you will be within 3-10 feet or even closer and you very likely wont have time to bring your weapon up to aim .. extending a weapon at close range is also asking for the perp to take the weapon !!

You may need to be firing from a close to body orientation.. as quickly as you are able to draw and point your pistol at the threat and fire .. you will likely be unable to have both hands on the weapon !! and this should also be practiced .. anywhere in the torso including the pelvic area would be then be a good shot in that situation !!

Practicing drawing and making a head strike on the target with your off hand at the same time as you back away firing is a must practice drill to learn !! Its a scenario that could well play out in real life .. if a perp were to approach you trying to rob you at close quarters !!

Very true. That is why I learned and practice the Center Axis Relock gun fighting system. I draw and bring the gun up to mynbreastbone area with a bladed stance, leaving the left hand free to push or strike a close in attacker. Then just fire without aiming. Assuming the attacker and I are similar in height I will hit him center mass. If he he's a bit farther away I go into a gun position that allows me to aim carefully. It's a great system.

It doesn't negate anything about WHERE to shoot.

I'm not sure what you call a 'bladed stance' but I believe it is what I've added to my technique recently. Attacker is on the left instead of turning to face the threat and shoot to the left with the gun in front of you? I tried that and liked it. I may modify it to bring the gun high enough to aim if there's time. I can shoot from the hip, but I am going to have to get a lot of practice to shoot confidently, that way. But hey, there's no time like the present.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

A bladed stance is one in which you presents your weak side to the aggressor. Unlike the Isosceles stance it does not expose the front of your torso as a target. It is a modified Weaver stance with your weak side arm protecting your side but still available to block or strike the opponent's actions.

The Center Axis Relock gunfighting system is much more than a shooting stance. It prepares you to face a hostile encouniter at face to face to mosderate distance with an aggressor.

Below, I have included a link that portrays the basics of the system. It is the tip of the iceberg of knowledge. I have been studying the system for a year and have become relatively proficient at it.

There are videos of its different aspects on YouTube. if you lok at them pay particular attention to those with Paul Castle who invented the system.

Click here to read a synopsis of the CAR system.

The term they use in training "center of mass" is self explanatory. And the scoring of human form silhouette targets still utilized for firearms training, penalizes for any round hitting outside of the center of mass. So, maybe they should revise the term and the target scoring scheme to reflect 'High Center of Mass'?

I do not know what "they" should do. What I believe for me and therefore know for me is that there is a lot of stuff being sold to SD trainees that is irresponsible. I see how many trainers are ex military, and I wonder what qualifies them to be a SD trainer. Look, I spent 4 years in Nam in direct combat roles. It sucks. Certain things I learned made were translatable to civilian SD situations. Most were not. Combat is chaos. SD has to be calculating not chaotic.

I got two things from combat. 1) Marines die, but the best way to stay alive is to keep focused on the target with a one shot one kill mentality. 2) Fear of death will get you killed so accept the fact that Warriors die and stay focused on killing your adversary.

The things I write in this forum are intended to raise consciousness. I have had almost three decades since ending my thirty year career in the Corps to learn how to tanslate combat experience into the reality of the civilian world.

Here are the things I know in that regard.

A person who never was in a gun fight is not an expert. You can study all the case histories you want but the true test is when you are being shot at.

Fear of dying will get you killed. A desire to live will help you kill your opponent.

You win by having nerves of steel coupled with knowledge and practice of gunfighting not stances for target shooting.

The common "drills" I read about are nonsense. When the SHTF it all changes. You want to be a top gun in the balls dept? Then go get shot at. It concentrates the mind on the task of surviving.

In the usual civilian situation the many different drills you pay to practice will not mean a thing. 99% of the time you will be in a one on one or two one one encounter with no cover available. That is not about move and shoot. It about dispatching the bad guys in short order by being calm and selectively killing them.

SSemoer Fi.

I think that applies to about 99% of us. I'm not a self defense expert and don't claim to be. But I can look at a 'new' system like the 'bladed' stance thing and introduce it to my repertoire, and train with it. I do recognize that surprise and subsequent paralysis from fear is a tactic often used on the street. I'm not a steely eyed gunman. In fact I'm pretty much the opposite. I can recognize my weaknesses though, and try to overcome them while being realistic about what may happen in an attack.

I know, for instance, that while I'm sitting here unarmed, somebody could kick in the door and I've have little to no chance of reaching a gun that was ready for combat.

I think that the being iike steel thing is referred to here, though it's a fictional movie, I don't think that the truth can be argued much:

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

What happens when the perp is on your right side? Do you turn your weak side to him to fire????

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

While far from an expert and I will defer to our Veterans, thank you all for your service, point shoot in a close quarters, self defense situation and continue that activity until your out of ammunition or the aggressive activity has ceased. Cover should also be sought when possible.

Amen. Between the crowd that doesn't realize that apples are different from oranges, and the scummy buggers that pretend they were something they aren't, I'm more or less sick and tired of the ex-this and retired-that credentials.

What's more annoying are the legions of uninitiated that blindly follow these guys, no matter what insane thing they say.

As for the rest of it...I would be mightily surprised if, in the course of shooting to defend myself, my attacker held still enough for me to start picking out where to shoot him. And even more surprised if he held still for it.

Despite all my readin' and studyin' and practicin', I believe my in-practice plan is very simple--shoot them fast, shoot them hard, and shoot them until they stop.

I am glad someone mentioned the proverbial Mozambique drill. Two to the body, one to the head. Just remember that if you are confronted by more than one perp who want to kill you you don't want to use up too much ammunition. Not that in the heat of the confrontation you're likely to remember how many shots you fired.

Dirty Harry Callahan: (c) Warner Bros 1971

Eminently sensible. Just try to keep an extra round for the other guy you didn't see at first!

Speaking of point shooting, as someone mentioned above, I like to remind folks of the difference between using your sight picture and "point shooting". If all you ever do at the range is try to hit bullseyes you are giving up half of your required skill set. Put out a silhouette target of any kind, official or a zombie target, and at various distances (but not silly long distances where sights are required unless you're dumb lucky or a Bob Munden/Jerry Miculek type of shooter) look that "perpetrator" straight in the face, do not look at your gun, no sights required, and put a few rounds in center mass. If you can't do that practice until you can. If you want to do a Mozambique drill while you practice this that is acceptable but two shots must be in center mass out of every three.

Every Hollywood movie, cops and robbers, cowboys and Indians, Allies versus Axis, Special Ops and tangos, it doesn't matter, has a scene where someone is shooting on the move or from the hip. It might be fiction and VERY HARD TO DO but it underscores the fact that, literally, it might be a necessary skill. What the Army teaches today I do not know but when I was in Basic Training (yes, before I was Navy I was Army - a reserve forces lifer!) they did require us to shoot M-14s from the hip.

You will very likely NOT have time to aim for a perfect shot in a confrontation. You need to be prepared to hit center mass without your sights.

Shooting and running is a very interesting combination. My accuracy goes down rapidly. Of course I practice at top speed on each. I want to know the capability to hit center mass I have when moving with a purpose. I find I can get two hits well but the third is who knows. Mostly I am moving laterally or toward the targets. Firing three shots is tough and four requires I slow down.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

When moving and shooting accuracy is always affected unless you are moving from cover to cover. In that case you need to take a deep breath and aim. But shooting while moving is generally just away of keeping the bad gy's head down while exposed. You cannot rush a gun fight. If you do, you could easily lose the fight. There is no substitute for careful aim and accuracy when trying to deliver a lethal shot.

I once monitored a class a friend of mine was taking in which he had to go from cover to cover and deliver rounds at the target. He was given a certain amount of time to complete the course. When the class was over I asked the indyructor why. He said that had a schedule so he had to divide up the time based upon the number of students he had. I asked how does that relate to the real world of a gunfight? He didn't answer.

Take cover, take your time, take aim, and win.

This makes no sense. Accuracy is always affected. I'm practicing effective firing as fast as possible while moving as fast as possible. It's most definitely not suppression fire. I know what it takes to get that hit. I'm talking about training to be faster by pushing that limit instead of always slowing down to get there.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

You do it your way, and I will do it mine because it kept me alive through four tours in the infantry and recon in Vietnam. What I said does make sense in spite of your opinion. I hope you never have to be in a gunfight. But, if you are, remember this if your haste does not seem to effective. Slow down when you reach cover, take aim, and kill the enemy.

Gunfighting is not like you see it in the movies. That is fantasy. The reality is that unless you keep your adrenalinin under control and your wits about you, you are likely to get hurt or dead.

Did you ever see a video of a real swat team in action? Did they rush to see how fast they could move and shoot? Fact is that ever move they make is deliberative and done slowly and carefully. That is what the experienced fighters do.

Finally, I recall an old adage in the infantry. The battle plan goes out the window as soon as the first shot is fired. That is because the enemy is not following your plan. Practice is great, but unless you are getting shot at while you practice it is not realistic.

Since we are on the topic of shooting and moving, checkout Paul's video on this (skip to 06:45 to jump right into the meat of this video) ...

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Colt 45 M1911/S&W M&P Shield 9

Relax Devil Dog. What didn't make sense was you were not shooting while moving from cover to cover. That was not clearly conveyed which is why I couldn't figure how accuracy was not affected. I appreciate your advice and will follow it. Right now I have offhand effective accuracy to about 70 yards with my handgun slowly and deliberately. I'm just trying to get faster with my shooting. I'm weak there.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

My apologies. I did go a bit overboard in that post replying to yours. You make a good point about not firing while going from cover to fire. The reason we generally did not fire on the move was because we were in a unit operation so others laid down cover fire while a couple moved to cover. Then those who moved laid down cover fire for others. It is a well proven system.

Of course in a one on one gunfight you gotta manage on your own the best way you can figure out based upon the circumstances.

LE training & qualification varies from state to state as does what they teach as Center Mass or High Center Mass. My state uses and oval shaped center mass scoring area and a credit card sized area covering the eyes/nose for the failure drill. Some stated do not require this shot others still use the old B-27 PPC target. BTW my state approves several targets for qualification and the Center Mass size and shape does vary some from target to target.

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Support your Police, & NRA

Thank you for posting the video. Harrell is a real expert. His advice is stellar in the video, as it is in all his videos. He helped make my point by demonstrating it.

One on one is my most likely odd followed by one or two against many. The reason why I practice the way I do is because I believe that I have to create a shock envelope to escape from the BGs. So I figure if I can create a fearsome initial impression when outnumbered then I have a better chance of survival. If I'm moving while I do this, then I also increase my odds of survival judging by how hard it is for me to hit while moving. So I'll just try to learn how to shoot as fast as I can run as far as I can hit.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

I can understand your rationale, but from experience I cannot agree with it. Why don't the Army and Marines train infantry to do what you suggest when they confront that envelope of multiple bad guys?

Here is why. You have actually proven the point. You know how hard it is to hit anything while running. You are counting on shock value. Well shock value only works it the rounds directed at the enemy are actually coming close and making them keep their heads down. That is why in any shoot and scoot situation the GIs count on cover fire from stationary friendlies. The scooters are not the shooters. The scooters move to cover and lay down cover fire so the shooters can become scooters.

You want to be both. problem is that when you take time to shoot while shooting you slow down. A slower moving target is much easier to hit than a faster moving target.

I really suggest that developing better sprinting speed is much better than trying to improve accuracy on the run. I train for that. I ran the 50 and 100 yd. dashes in HS. I am a sprinter. Today I at 75 I can do 50 in 8 seconds. That is a hard target to hit.

Hmmm...I'll keep this ole thread going for a bit.

But this ole codger couldn't run 10 yards in ten minutes, so run and shoot is sort of a moot issue for me..(I can take available cover though)

Center of mass shooting...Yes...Shoot until the threat is stopped...Yes

It may or may not entail shooting all the rounds at once I have available.

The movies are great but....Having to quick drawl my weapon, I doubt it...I pretty much know my surroundings..Situational awareness, I believe it's called.

Yep, during my yearly quals for a ole has been, is we have 50 times to practice center of mass shooting...With sights shoot and point of shoot, one perp or more. A couple of the sessions were timed event, others were....Threat!!!! Shoot.

IMO, it's impossible to practice for all events. But I will say practice both, aimed and point of shoot.


WuzzFuzz

Certainly don't want to set up a storm, but I was wondering after reading ALL of these, How many of you shot this past week...or the week before, or before that?
I picked up lots of useful info in this thread and will try them out today. My shooters will do them tomorrow. All info that we can use to see what works for us. We will be shooting. 95+ degrees and the same humidity. We will be shooting. We all want to get better. We are pretty damn good RIGHT now. But we strive to improve. So to all who read this, let's go shoot. As for me and mine we carry every step and shoot every day.
As for the OP...EVERY available target has a center mass. Shoot what you see, as fast as you can get hits.

I shoot at the range ever Wednesday afternoon. Once a month I join my friend who has a Tactical range on his farm. I would do more tactical bu there are no facilities near me where I can do that. One thing that the Corps taught me was that the more you train the more proficient you become.

Take out the Dicrotic Notch and they will go down right now..
With any decent defensive round..
Heads move but not the notch..

Sorry, I missing something here. A diacritic notch is a point in a graph of aortic blood pressure where the pressure drops deeply. I never heard the term used as if it were an anotomical location.

Clarification?

Not just in the service, but it's true anywhere in life, from elementary school to adulthood; from little league baseball to retirement golf.

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Colt 45 M1911/S&W M&P Shield 9

While some people have "rappers luck", so many of these "musician/gangstas" have been allegedly shot multiple times & are still around. The bullet may miss vitals & a bone fragment may kill. Ever see a mangled car & wonder how anyone could have walked away??? It happens all the time. If you truly need to shoot and shoot now, You kinda have to take what's offered.

[QUOTE=richardw;139679868]Sorry, I missing something here. A diacritic notch is a point in a graph of aortic blood pressure where the pressure drops deeply. I never heard the term used as if it were an anotomical location.

Clarification?[/QUTE]

The dicrotic notch is a slang term used by some
for the u shaped notch located on top of the sternum,
Nestled between the jugular veins and carotid arteries..
A hit in this spot will result in RAPID LOSS OF BLOOD PRESSURE,
massive bleeding and central nervous/spinal cord damage..
So that is the connection.. Sorry for the confusion..

It is also the spot in which you should start a tracheotomy vertical incision..
Learned that watching medic do procedure in the field in Vietnam Nam ..

[quote=cavnamvet;139679966]20 years in and around the medical field and I've never heard that term used as an anatomical reference. That's like saying shoot them in the Syncopal Episode.

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Retired Career Security Guard

I've always heard that referred to as the sternal notch. FYI, also a good place to jab someone with your thumb if you have to defend yourself up close.

C.A.R. is a very good skill to own in certain close up situations. Good post on that. Doubt many here have trained in it,but its a good tool to have in the box.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

[quote=Smoke;139680033]Apparently there's a lot you haven't heard of..
As I wrote , used by some, doesn't include you..

[quote=Smoke;139680033]

You learn something new every day..
Especially if you've led a sheltered life..

Go and sin no more.........

Sorry if this offends anyone (not really) and it will, but from the OPs post this has been absolutely inane! It finally got to me!.

There have been several excellent peripheral points made by several posters, I am not addressing them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The basic premise of "center of center mass" is what is ridiculous. Center is a POINT, not an area, no matter how you look at it. Center Mass is a POINT, you cannot have a center of a point! What CENTER MASS as an aiming point means just that, aiming for a point which constitutes the center of the major mass of the human body. Draw lines from left shoulder to the right hip and vice-versa, where they cross, approximately at the solar plexus, is the point which is the center of the mass of the body.

The entire premise of aiming for "center mass" is it gives you the highest hit probability somewhere on the human body. Nothing more nor less. It doesn't need any more explanation than this!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

[quote=cavnamvet;139680067]Not used by anyone who knows basic terminology.

Wanna get out the ruler?

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Retired Career Security Guard

I think that, if you are referring to "center of mass" as defined in physics, you are correct. In physics center of mass is the same as center of gravity, that it is a point.

I was referring to the word center mass as commonly used in self defense shooting training. It is not a point it is an area. Within that are there is a prime zone for lethal hits. That is what I described.

Sorry to have been inane and irritated you, but I stand by what I wrote based upon shooters general use of the word center mass.

Anyone who was around 'real' gunfighters and the gunighters themselves, describe calm, making the first shot count and having no fear, regret or compunction about pulling the trigger and putting a bullet into a person. Being the person I am, with a conscious and a desire to live my entire life without hurting a soul I don't think that I could be that deliberate. The ONLY hedge that people like me have is training, the more and more realistic the better.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Just liked your post. It is so right on target (no pun intended) that I hope many will read and comprehend it.

Before I joined the Marines the thought of actually hurting, shootings at, or killing another person was not in my reality. Remembering my first threat experiences at Bay of
and Cuban Missile Crisis, I was plenty scared. Yes, I was trained, but I had never been shot at nor had shot at a person.

Recognizing a young Marine's fear while we waited to land during the bungled Bay of Pigs fiasco, my platoon sergeant asked me if I was scared. When I replied with a Yes he said Good, I am scared too, but we are Marines and we face fear in the eye and do what we are trained to do. He told me to not try to outthink my training and to follow it because that was the way to survive.

I did not see combat until 1965. During my 4 tours in Nam and 30 years in the Corps I came to understand the wisdom of that advice. I passed it on to many young Marines over that time.

In the Kubrick film, Full Metal Jacket, Lee Ermy plays a DI. Upon graduation from boot camp he tells his brand new Marines "Marines die. That is what we are here for." While he conditions that statement in subsequent dialogue, the message is clear. He is stating what every Combat Marine knows: death is a day to day reality. Then we realize that the way to avoid death as much as it can be avoided is to train and execute based upon that training.

So the post I quoted is reminiscent and real. Take heed.

richardw,

Thank you for your post. One thing I find interesting throughout the entire discussion is the varying views of center of mass. While these days I am predominantly a target shooter, center of mass is natural for me. In high power matches, and the numerous 2700 matches I have participated in, a 6 o'clock hold was used and practiced perhaps one day. I point my sights (when I have the luxury) at the center of largest target presented to me, with the expectation that point of aim will coincide with the point of impact. A six o'clock sight picture is impractical.

My combat experience does not compare with Richard's, but his advice rings with value. Survival is job one, and worrying about getting hurt guarantees your chances at survival are reduced.

I believe that virtually all of us that carry and find that we have to engage and neutralize an imminent threat have to accept that we will get hurt, and that the quicker we neutralize the threat, the less likely the injuries to our loved ones may be. We must, however, learn to hit the vitals that will take the fight out of the threat as quickly as possible.

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Judge control not gun control!