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06-17-2017, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
In Ohio, that could get a citizen who's carrying arrested and his CHL revoked.
You MUST VERBALLY NOTIFY when stopped for a "law enforcement purpose" AND are armed.
Know not just your local laws, but the applicable law where you are carrying.
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You can still verbally notify them after you have handed them the permit. Seems to me there was a case in Ohio about ten years ago on this very subject. Chargers were either not filed or dropped against the citizen, and the officer was fired after making threats.
Most everything in law is in reasonable standards, I would think that shouting I have a gun before the officer even reaches the car is not. So if not immediately then when? When it is reasonably safe to do so, or as soon as safely possible.
http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/L...nual-%28PDF%29
Traffic Stops and Other Law Enforcement Encounters
If a person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and is carrying a concealed handgun as a CCW icensee, whether in a motor vehicle or not, he shall promptly inform the law enforcement officer that he is carrying a concealed handgun. If in a vehicle, the licensee shall remain in the vehicle and keep his hands in
plain sight at all times. Violating this section of law is a first-degree misdemeanor, and in addition to any ther penalty handed down by a court, may result in the suspension of the person’s concealed handgun license for one year. A permit holder is not required to inform law enforcement of his status if he is not carrying a firearm.
Nothing in there that states verbally, in fact how would a person with speech disabilities inform the officer. That would violate federal disabilities laws. Handing the officer the permit IS notification.
Last edited by Walkingwolf; 06-17-2017 at 08:50 PM.
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06-17-2017, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
I'd assume the LEO knows I have a carry permit (computers, you know).
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Don't assume. Michigan, for one, no longer automatically runs a CPL query when a plate is run, so it doesn't show up anymore.
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06-17-2017, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug M.
*
How many IQ points did you lose trying to reason with that lackwit? Given my unfortunate daytime world demands, I am rarely up past about 2000, and even more rarely in bars or places of similar ilk. I sure as heck avoid the ones such as you describe. That's a disaster just waiting to happen.
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I'm not entertained by drunks, thugs or sports (a LOT of the bars here are sports bars).
I'm the guy sitting by himself in a family restaurant reading a $125 book on machine guns.
It's far more entertaining for me to stay at home, drink a glass of pinot grigio and watch a C&Rsenal YouTube video on the Commission 88 rifle.
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06-17-2017, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf
You can still verbally notify them after you have handed them the permit. Seems to me there was a case in Ohio about ten years ago on this very subject. Chargers were either not filed or dropped against the citizen, and the officer was fired after making threats.
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You're referring to the Harless case in Canton.
The driver was acquitted because Harless actively PREVENTED him from notifying. The dashcam video very clearly shows the victim ATTEMPTING to verbally notify and not being permitted to do so.
And regarding Harless, he was fired, then after a ludicrous arbitrator's decision, reinstated, then allowed to medically retire on a bogus "PTSD" claim. The arbitrator ruled that since there were cops with even WORSE documented records than Harless's, who weren't fired, it was unfair to fire HIM.
By the way, the video of Harless preventing the victim from notifying and threatening to murder him, was the THIRD such video of him threatening to murder a citizen.
And NO, it is NOT sufficient in Ohio to present your CHL or equivalent in lieu of a "prompt" (undefined in the statute) VERBAL notification. You WILL be arrested, and probably lose your CHL. The cop just can't stop you from doing something then arrest you for not doing it any more than he could set you on fire, throw you through a store window, then arrest you for "arson". Well, actually he could, but it likely won't hold up in court.
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06-17-2017, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
You're referring to the Harless case in Canton.
The driver was acquitted because Harless actively PREVENTED him from notifying. The dashcam video very clearly shows the victim ATTEMPTING to verbally notify and not being permitted to do so.
And regarding Harless, he was fired, then after a ludicrous arbitrator's decision, reinstated, then allowed to medically retire on a bogus "PTSD" claim. The arbitrator ruled that since there were cops with even WORSE documented records than Harless's, who weren't fired, it was unfair to fire HIM.
By the way, the video of Harless preventing the victim from notifying and threatening to murder him, was the THIRD such video of him threatening to murder a citizen.
And NO, it is NOT sufficient in Ohio to present your CHL or equivalent in lieu of a "prompt" (undefined in the statute) VERBAL notification. You WILL be arrested, and probably lose your CHL. The cop just can't stop you from doing something then arrest you for not doing it any more than he could set you on fire, throw you through a store window, then arrest you for "arson". Well, actually he could, but it likely won't hold up in court.
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Agreed. Merely handing the officer the CCW permit is not informing him you are currently carrying.
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06-17-2017, 11:30 PM
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I would do nothing unless asked (must respond if asked) or asked to step out of the car. You don't want surprises if searched. Say you have a license and are carrying. What do you want me to do [keeping your hands on the wheel]? Never say "gun", and don't play show-and-tell like the guy in Minneapolis.
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06-18-2017, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke
Are you sure? IN the video I saw the woman filming him is in the driver's seat. Maybe it looked back wards on the video
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I don't remember why, but the video is mirror imaged. If you look at the video you will see that Saint Castile is behind the wheel.
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06-18-2017, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
You're referring to the Harless case in Canton.
The driver was acquitted because Harless actively PREVENTED him from notifying. The dashcam video very clearly shows the victim ATTEMPTING to verbally notify and not being permitted to do so.
And regarding Harless, he was fired, then after a ludicrous arbitrator's decision, reinstated, then allowed to medically retire on a bogus "PTSD" claim. The arbitrator ruled that since there were cops with even WORSE documented records than Harless's, who weren't fired, it was unfair to fire HIM.
By the way, the video of Harless preventing the victim from notifying and threatening to murder him, was the THIRD such video of him threatening to murder a citizen.
And NO, it is NOT sufficient in Ohio to present your CHL or equivalent in lieu of a "prompt" (undefined in the statute) VERBAL notification. You WILL be arrested, and probably lose your CHL. The cop just can't stop you from doing something then arrest you for not doing it any more than he could set you on fire, throw you through a store window, then arrest you for "arson". Well, actually he could, but it likely won't hold up in court.
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No where is verbal part of the AG of Ohio's legal opinion. Unless it says so directly a person can notify by any means reasonable. I tend to go by actual laws, or legal opinions that are laid out by the individual states.
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06-18-2017, 03:33 AM
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In Oregon you are not required to tell them, unless asked. I usually wait until they are done with their opening introduction before I say I have a permit and am armed. It is also the reason I carry my wallet in my left back pocket. My gun is on my right. That way after I say my gun is there and my wallet is here they tend to not be nervous.
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06-18-2017, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&WsRsweet
have your firearm in plain sight but do not reach for it if he wants he will get it
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I just see that suggestion as a wise option.
In Ohio , concealed means concealed, even in your vehicle.
Center console, mounted and secured, a hat (or whatever) needs to cover your gun.
Put yourself in the shoes of an LEO, walking up to a pull over, and you immediately view a firearm.................
and yes, keep your DL & permit in a location that does not provide the assumption that you could be reaching for a weapon.
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06-18-2017, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf
No where is verbal part of the AG of Ohio's legal opinion. Unless it says so directly a person can notify by any means reasonable. I tend to go by actual laws, or legal opinions that are laid out by the individual states.
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And yet people keep getting arrested for it.
Combined with the history of people being PREVENTED from notifying then being prosecuted for failing to do so, that sounds like excellent justification for ELIMINATING mandatory notification.
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06-18-2017, 10:27 AM
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The LEO is in control of the traffic stop. The driver and all other occupants of the vehicle need to follow the instructions of the officer and keep the rhetoric down and civil. If you feel you have been mistreated, you can file complaints with IAD, the FBI or Justice Department. In short, comply,comply,comply....
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06-18-2017, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Wiggums
I just see that suggestion as a wise option.
In Ohio , concealed means concealed, even in your vehicle.
Center console, mounted and secured, a hat (or whatever) needs to cover your gun.
Put yourself in the shoes of an LEO, walking up to a pull over, and you immediately view a firearm.................
and yes, keep your DL & permit in a location that does not provide the assumption that you could be reaching for a weapon.
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Not only is that wrong, it flies in the face of the legislative history of concealed carry in Ohio.
There is NO legal requirement for a firearm to be concealed, not only in a vehicle, but ANYWHERE. Open carry is not only legal, it's very plainly so stated by the Ohio AG's opinions.
And getting to the history of concealed carry in Ohio, the ONLY reason why we have shall issue concealed carry is because the IMBECILES who opposed concealed carry said we didn't need it because open carry was LEGAL. We called their bluff and started open carrying. It wasn't too much after that that we got concealed carry... with NO change in the law regarding open carry. And lest we forget, at the beginning of legal concealed carry, in a vehicle, the gun HAD to be in PLAIN SIGHT, BY LAW.
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06-18-2017, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc2427765
The LEO is in control of the traffic stop. The driver and all other occupants of the vehicle need to follow the instructions of the officer and keep the rhetoric down and civil. If you feel you have been mistreated, you can file complaints with IAD, the FBI or Justice Department. In short, comply,comply,comply....
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Which means you'd better be prepared BEFOREHAND to record, record, record.
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06-18-2017, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshman
Agreed. Merely handing the officer the CCW permit is not informing him you are currently carrying.
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And in addition, it likely fails the requirement for "timeliness".
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06-18-2017, 11:12 AM
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Means, Opportunity, Intent
Justifiable deadly force requires that we examine the means, opportunity and manifested intent of your would-be adversary. Castillo had the means and opportunity but where was the intent? If means and opportunity are enough, police may then shoot youths using baseball bats on a ball field or show up at a public shooting range and open fire on anyone with a gun.
Ordinarily, I support the men in blue, having been a federal agent. I can't know the exact circumstance, motion or word that made the police officer in this incident suddenly fear for his life. Yet, the professionalism we demand of our police officers must be at a very high standard. In my opinion, if they don't grasp the elements that need to be present to justify deadly force, then we are all in jeopardy.
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06-18-2017, 11:28 AM
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A number of our members are/were in law enforcement. We appreciate their service and want them to feel welcome on this board. Sweeping generalizations about LEO's, based on a few isolated instances, are unfair and will not be tolerated.
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