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  #51  
Old 06-27-2017, 04:07 PM
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Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife  
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Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
I just don't do ATM's, but I have years ago when some business still required cash.
Some still do.

There's a restaurant five minutes from here that doesn't take checks or credit cards.

NONE of the breakfast and lunch cafes in the local office buildings takes checks or credit cards.

Farther up the same road, there's a grocery store which only started accepting credit cards in the last month or so.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think the Ohio Turnpike takes checks or credit cards.

The sole washer and dryer in my apartment building requires quarters. I've never tried to buy a roll of quarters at the local grocery store with a check or credit card.

The RTA buses here require cash.

It's still necessary to have cash.
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Old 06-27-2017, 08:57 PM
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Well I agree that when you can't do something that might get you out of a threatening encounter or an attack you have to take other action.

At 75 I am not the runner I was when in the Corps. But I can run a short distance. That is all I need to be able to draw, turn and fire. If I was with someone that would not be an option. Keep in mind that my various comment have been part of a debate about putting time and distance from an attacker. I was arguing that side stepping and backing up are not the best options for that. If you want distance quickly turn and run, if you can. That does mean you have to run away. You just have to get a chance to draw before the attacker stabs you. Remember if attacked by a knife it is likely to start when the attacker is right on top of you so you might not be able to draw fast enough. That is why I have been stating that a person best have some other defensive skills.
Very few people have the skill or the experience to defend themselves against a knife attack. Some can't defend themselves. A hand gun is an instant equalizer.

As I stated before, I've been cut twice. Slashed once and stabbed the other. Didn't even know I was bleeding. Creating distance would have put me in a much better position to defend myself. A little more time and I can prepare for the attack and hopefully use an improvised weapon instead of my bare hands.
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:02 PM
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bringing a knife to a gunfight is never a wise move.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:47 PM
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I was a police officer for 20+ years. In my juridiction a duly sworn officer had a legal duty to aprehend suspects whom we saw commit a criminal act, suspects we had reasonable suspicion had just, were in the process of, or were immeninently about to commit a criminal act or whom we had a sworn warrant to arrest. If the criminal act was a felony we had the legal right to use deadly force.

In practical terms this means a LEO could not retreat if a skell (schlem) was in the act of committing a knife attack. While courts have long held that the officer has no personal duty to the victim of the attack, he does have a duty to the state to end the criminal assault in a way so as to minimize the amount of damage done by the criminal offender. Done properly this does protect the victim of the assault.

That jurisdiction when it issued Carry Permits required the holder to retreat if possible (not if possible in perfect safety) and permitted the use of deadly force only to prevent Murder, Aggravated Assault or Forcible Rape.

So in this jurisdiction a civilian confronting a knife wielding maniac is supposed to run if he can.

Then I moved to a jurisdiction which said you have to retreat if you can 'in safety' (I like the wording 'perfect safety' better), and you could defend your person against any felonious act.

Then I moved to a jurisdiction where you do not have to retreat if you are where you are lawfully.

Of course this is the letter of the law, DAs interpret the law, as do police officials who hand down policy, which is further interpreted by the lieutenants and sergeants and the individual officers who have a great deal of discretion.

And you probably don't live in any of those jurisdictions.

I hope this clarifies things.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:53 PM
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TompkinsSP,
Thank you for the cogent and articulate explanation. I just got smarter than I was five minutes ago.
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
Knifes are easily capable of causing death or great bodily injury. I have seen an old man who walked with a walking stick (because he needed it) cross 21 feet and strike a target with a knife in less than two seconds. Pretending a knife is not lethal is a good way to get killed.
Knives are time honored murder weapons, very much favored by underworld characters that don't want to make noise. A blade sticking in your center of mass can easily be as bad as a bullet, maybe worse because of the wide swath of a blade.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:54 PM
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Aloha,

The internet has LOTS of photos of victims of knife attacks.

Watching locals at fish markets take apart a 200 pound tuna to bare bones

with Razor Sharp knives the size of a machete in a few minutes is eye opening.

The thing to remember is that a knife unlike a gun Never runs out of bullets.

A knife wit CUT going in and out. It will Cut up/down/sideways, any direction.

Being of Japanese ancestry, I am very much aware of the edged weapon as used in Japan.

Be aware that tests of a samurai sword involved slicing condemned prisoners in 5 different ways which left the prisoner in bits and pieces.

My Dad's 10" Razor sharp sashimi knife is very capable of disemboweling anyone. It can very easily take an arm off.

I am More Afraid of a Knife than a gun.

Any Good martial artist can disarm a person with a gun out, finger on the trigger before a shot can be fired.

To me anyone with a knife within 50' is too close.

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Old 06-28-2017, 03:29 PM
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Of the two main streams of thought here, which has the greater weight? Is it the "Been there, done that... and I have the training to back it up.", or is it the "From what I've read in books, and this is really something I've never had any actual experience with..."?

C'mon, already. Supposition and theory will lose that argument every time.
In theory, there is no difference in theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:15 PM
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I just don't do ATM's, but I have years ago when some business still required cash. I will not, would not use a ATM when there are other people there. It is asking for trouble, I would either stay in the car until nobody was there, or find another ATM.
I just don't do banks, myself...but in the past I'd venture inside them when I needed cash. I will not, would not use a bank now, though, especially when there are other people inside. I've seen some pretty creepy looking people in banks, let me tell you. It's asking for trouble, and I'm getting on up in years now. Don't need any more trouble in my life.

I think I'd rather just wait in the car and hope everyone leaves, or else drive to another branch and hope things look safer there.

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I have said over, and over again. Use your brain, and your chances of being a victim drop to outrageously low percentage.
That's good advice. I'll probably stop going into convenience stores next. Then pharmacies, maybe. My Walgreen's pharmacy got robbed just last week. They even sell knives in Walgreen's, by the way.
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:08 PM
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I am More Afraid of a Knife than a gun.

...

To me anyone with a knife within 50' is too close.
Agreed. I'd be pretty nervous in general, but people overestimate how much time it takes for a person to run a relatively large gap. A 50m sprint race is over in under 15 seconds.

How long does it take you to unlock your car, get inside, start the engine, put it in gear, and start driving? Probably more time than a person can run 25 yards.
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  #61  
Old 06-30-2017, 01:55 AM
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Moving backwards or sideways can get you hurt. First, backwards means you cannot see what you might trip over, and you cannot see obstacles or people behind you. Moving sideways only means the attacker has only to change direction. He will be moving faster than you can in taking diversionary movement. Better to learns how to parry an attack. See my post above for a link to a thread where I explain how I was trained in the Corps to respond to a knife attack. I know it works.
I agree with your assessments here, Marine. Just moving backwards or shuffling to the side will get you killed. If you could effectively run away, then that's what you do. Otherwise, your attacker will keep on coming and you have to deal with it. You sum it up well when you say that it's better to learn how to parry the attack. A key word here is "learn." I followed your link and read about how you were trained. Excellent training it is, and you know it works because it kept you alive. I would do it differently, but that's because of how I was trained. It amounts to the same thing. If you train you can learn. If you don't train, you don't learn. If you don't learn, you die. You might die anyway, but you fight to stay alive.
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  #62  
Old 07-08-2017, 09:24 PM
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Interesting video concerning this.

Elite Knife Fighter vs Elite Gun Fighter - RAW, UNCUT, NEVER BEFORE SEEN FOOTAGE - YouTube


Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:19 PM
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KODIAKCO:

THAT is some good stuff! Very effective tactics demonstrated here, especially the change of plane and angle on the part of Zero.

It is definitely going into the repertoire!
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Old 07-12-2017, 06:47 AM
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Falling to my back during a knife attack allows my feet to deflect the knife as well as allowing draw from appendix carry.

Shoes or boots give some protection from the knife while bringing my gun into play to finish the attack.

Rolling to my left allows access to my backup gun often carried in the small of my back.



I also carry both weapons inside the waistband in front at 10 & 2 o'clock which would be better in the knife attack scenario. This carry allows either or both hands to produce a gun.



Shown above: J frame strong hand, 3914DAO weak hand.

digiroc

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Old 07-12-2017, 09:02 AM
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Then there's this...

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Old 07-12-2017, 09:18 AM
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When we took the class, it was 21'. Every deputy in the class, in uniform, was stabbed with the rubber knife. I agree the distance needs to be made longer, and the threat of a person with a knife needs to be taken very seriously.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:14 PM
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When we took the class, it was 21'. Every deputy in the class, in uniform, was stabbed with the rubber knife. I agree the distance needs to be made longer, and the threat of a person with a knife needs to be taken very seriously.
Here is the problem, most cases there will not be threat until the attack has begun. Successful bad guys do not tell you they are going to mug you, that is a Hollywood, and tactikewl myth. They use opportunities, and risk levels, as well as taking advantage of stealth.

People that seek revenge usually plan it, and telling you is not part of that plan. They will get close, most likely wait to an opportunity that they will not be deterred, or caught to strike. This is how the real world of criminals works, yes there are dumb criminals, but you cannot count on them.

Unless you are Chuck Norris you probably are not going to survive a knife attack by someone determined to kill you. Even if you train for it unless that training is daily. Plus you have to be in top health, which many of us are not.

Sometimes it helps to think like a criminal, what would you do if you were going to attack someone successfully. And then how would you avoid it.

All "you" are general that aimed at anyone specific.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:42 PM
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My son, Matt, is a deputy sheriff. About 18 months ago, he was called to a scene involving a suicidal subject with a knife. The man was in a nearly-empty parking lot at a ski area with a 6" fixed blade knife. Matt took up station about 50' away alongside a new deputy he was training. Matt had an M1A rifle, his trainee a 12 ga. shotgun. They were behind their truck's doors. Two other deputies arrived and posted on either side of the subject. Negotiation went on for about a half hour, but the subject made his intent very clear. He finally charged, coming on at a dead run. Matt fired one shot at about 15', the trainee fired his shotgun almost simutaneously. Both hit center mass and the situation was thus resolved. They were, of course, criticized in the press for not " shooting him in the leg" or "tazing him" or some other idiotic thing. Bottom line, there was no way he was going to shoot anywhere but center mass on a guy with a big knife and the announced intent to use it. Fortunately, his boss backed him and all ended well. Knives simply cannot be taken lightly as so many seem to think.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:54 PM
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I don't think this was posted here. If it was, apologies for the dup. Goes over why a knife attack is so difficult to defend using cctv video examples The material takes some time to get through. Advanced warning, the videos linked on the pages are graphic.

Self-defence against knife attacks: a full review

ETA: it's a Krav Maga studio that did a reasonably in depth study and realized that neither KM or other traditional martial arts have a good solution to typical "street" knife attacks.
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Old 07-13-2017, 12:01 AM
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During defensive tactics training in my State Police academy nearly 50 years ago, a grizzled old sarge was conducting the training. We spent most of a week practicing defensive tactics for an hour a day while facing someone with a knife. Several different scenarios were presented with the attacker using a wooden or rubber knife being held in different ways and attacking from differing ways. We worked on these things till we were crosseyed! At the end of that session of training, the old sarge gathered us together and made this statement: "Boys, I taught this session because it is a part of the required curriculum. But I will tell you this. There is only one way to take a knife away from someone who is trying to stick or cut you with it. Take three quick steps backward while drawing your revolver and shoot him away from the knife. Even then, you will likely get stuck or cut. If you fumble your draw and fire, you will still likely be stuck or cut badly enough to die from it. Then he demonstrated to each of us how quickly a determined man with a knife could close a distance of about 25 feet and hit you with the training knife. If we were facing the man with the knife out while having our training revolvers holstered, we found out quickly that we had started out way behind and mostly lost the race.

I always was much more concerned when facing a person with a knife than having someone facing me with a gun. The person with a knife intends to get close enough to really hurt you. If he does not drop the knife on command, you'd better be ready to drop the hammer the instant he moves. That means you'd better already have that revolver out of its holster and aimed at the attacker BEFORE he moves! The guy pointing the gun may or may not be ready to pull that trigger, and he may or may not be able to shoot well enough to hit you when or if he fires the gun. But the determined guy with a knife must get close enough to you to touch you with it, and he can do so while you are thinking about it. And just because you put a bullet or two in his body does not mean he is stopping any time soon! Certainly not until after he has reached out and touched you with his shiv ... Knives make NASTY wounds, where ever they touch you!
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Old 07-13-2017, 12:15 AM
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I'm not sure what they meant by 21 foot 'rule'. We they saying that you could defend against a knife at that distance or more. Well, if you already had your gun on them, yeah. But drawing and raising to an effective level can't be done in that time. I like what the SEAL said about when you raise your gun, start shooting at the attackers feet on up as you get the gun leveled. But still 21 feet is way too close for comfort.
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Wyo View Post
My son, Matt, is a deputy sheriff. About 18 months ago, he was called to a scene involving a suicidal subject with a knife. The man was in a nearly-empty parking lot at a ski area with a 6" fixed blade knife. Matt took up station about 50' away alongside a new deputy he was training. Matt had an M1A rifle, his trainee a 12 ga. shotgun. They were behind their truck's doors. Two other deputies arrived and posted on either side of the subject. Negotiation went on for about a half hour, but the subject made his intent very clear. He finally charged, coming on at a dead run. Matt fired one shot at about 15', the trainee fired his shotgun almost simutaneously. Both hit center mass and the situation was thus resolved. They were, of course, criticized in the press for not " shooting him in the leg" or "tazing him" or some other idiotic thing. Bottom line, there was no way he was going to shoot anywhere but center mass on a guy with a big knife and the announced intent to use it. Fortunately, his boss backed him and all ended well. Knives simply cannot be taken lightly as so many seem to think.
I'm a frequent and often harsh critic of the police.

That having been said, I don't expect ANYBODY to LET themselves to be slashed or stabbed to death, be they a cop or an interior designer. Nor do I expect them to incur one IOTA of risk to protect an assailant attempting to unlawfully stab or slash them to death.

A knife attack is deadly force, PERIOD. Unlawful deadly force should be met with deadly force.

If somebody doesn't want to be shot to death, their first priority should be to NOT unlawfully attack others with deadly force, whether they use a bike lock, a knife or a Thompson submachine gun.
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Old 07-13-2017, 02:24 PM
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If we are talking a single assailant I would think the most effective chance of survival in a knife attack is an armed buddy. Your still going to get stabbed, but chances of survival increase.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by KSDeputy View Post
When we took the class, it was 21'. Every deputy in the class, in uniform, was stabbed with the rubber knife. I agree the distance needs to be made longer, and the threat of a person with a knife needs to be taken very seriously.
Took a class in which a knife welding person attacking from behind was used as a scenario in which the retired deputy teaching the class said for someone unable to run away or run to cover either because of a physical deficiency or that the attacker is to close just a few feet away when the attack starts .. they might need to fight from the ground on their back .. falling to the ground on your back could give you the extra second or two you need to draw your weapon and to defend yourself .. and you might possibly avoid being stabbed ..

Every situation is different but it could prevent you from being stabbed in the back trying to flee under certain conditions ..

As the video showed its not likely a knife welding Perp is going to show the knife till they are much closer to you .. so situational awareness is still paramount in your self defense .. anyone that gets within my or my wife's safe zone are watched very closely .. my wife will warn me of anyone coming up behind me ..
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:10 AM
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There is an inconsistency in the deputies suggestion. If the attacker is coming at your back and you are lucky enough to hear him in theme to respond by turning around then you have your best chance of fending off the attack by gunfire or by praying the attack. However, what are the chances that you will hear the attacker before he is next to you? Not good Imwould say. Remember the attacker is purposefully trying to harm you ans is likely trying to Beas stealth fuel as possible.

Let's assume you do get tuerned around in time cannot draw or parry. If you end up on your back in front of the attacker he could be on top of you before you even get a hand on the gun or impede the effort by getting in top of you. Remember you are at the disadvantage. So once you are on the ground on your back you are not going anywhere unless you incapacitate the attacker. If you fail to do that you are hurt or dead.

If you stay on your feet and can confront the attack, you can still parry with an arm. Maybe you get stabbed in the arm, but you can get your gun out and/or still maneuver.

During my 30 years in the Corps no instructor in any combat skill ever suggested getting on you back to defend yourself. I trained Marines and never would dream of telling them to get on th sir back to buy time. The key to surviving in a close qmuarter fight is to stop the lethal maneuver, and you do that by maneuvering. You might get hurt on you ur feet but that is better than being dead on your back.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:16 AM
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Every situation is different but it could prevent you from being stabbed in the back trying to flee under certain conditions ..

As the video showed its not likely a knife welding Perp is going to show the knife till they are much closer to you .. so situational awareness is still paramount in your self defense .. anyone that gets within my or my wife's safe zone are watched very closely .. my wife will warn me of anyone coming up behind me ..
Control your space. Don't rely solely on someone else to see it for you. Use command tone to deter anyone who is not fitting in with your idea of a good time. I'd rather boom someone with my voice than have to come from behind because I let them get too close. I have told people, "That's far enough." One guy gave me a sly smile and kept coming at a gas station in Mobile, Alabama. I said, "Final warning. Stay away." He did his thing elsewhere. I also carry a powerful flashlight to enforce my personal space. I'm not above blinding someone to get my bubble back and you'll likely see both hands or figure out which one to avoid.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:20 PM
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Here is the problem, most cases there will not be threat until the attack has begun. Successful bad guys do not tell you they are going to mug you, that is a Hollywood, and tactikewl myth. They use opportunities, and risk levels, as well as taking advantage of stealth.

People that seek revenge usually plan it, and telling you is not part of that plan. They will get close, most likely wait to an opportunity that they will not be deterred, or caught to strike. This is how the real world of criminals works, yes there are dumb criminals, but you cannot count on them.

Unless you are Chuck Norris you probably are not going to survive a knife attack by someone determined to kill you. Even if you train for it unless that training is daily. Plus you have to be in top health, which many of us are not.

Sometimes it helps to think like a criminal, what would you do if you were going to attack someone successfully. And then how would you avoid it.

All "you" are general that aimed at anyone specific.

Good points.

If someone brandishes a knife and is menacingly waving it all around in a civilian scenario, I think they are most likely simply trying to illicit a certain response(scare you or get your money etc.) rather than intent on launching an attack. Someone serious about doing you harm with a blade will usually try to get close and launch their assault unexpectedly like in a prison shanking. Essentially an assassination attempt.

Defending against a knife at close-quarters is extremely precarious no matter who is involved or the ability of the defender. Actual knife disarms are very difficult to pull off without getting cut or stabbed, although it certainly can be done. There is no trick, foolproof techniques/methodology to it as it takes a great deal of skill and athleticism. If someone lacks the prerequisite quickness, timing and agility, they will not likely be able to effectively execute a disarm no matter how much training they have received. Of course a lot depends on who is wielding the knife since defending against a knife attack from an elderly woman would be much different than one from a young, strong male.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:27 PM
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There is no trick, foolproof techniques/methodology to it as it takes a great deal of skill and athleticism.
I think the real "trick" for most people is to decide that they're going to prevail no matter what, regardless of whatever has to be done to their assailant.

Some people have that ability and some don't. Not all those who do survive. Most of the ones who don't, don't.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:42 PM
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I think the real "trick" for most people is to decide that they're going to prevail no matter what, regardless of whatever has to be done to their assailant.

Some people have that ability and some don't. Not all those who do survive. Most of the ones who don't, don't.
I absolutely agree that mindset can be vital, but will is somewhat irrelevant in this scenario if the body is simply incapable.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:52 PM
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I absolutely agree that mindset can be vital, but will is somewhat irrelevant in this scenario if the body is simply incapable.
I agree that you have to have at least some minimum degree of skill and physical ability. However, especially in the case of the "Aloha Snackbar!" crowd, their default assumption is that you'll go like a sheep to the slaughter. If you DON'T that puts them WAY off their game.

I see all too many people who say:
  1. "The police will protect me." - Not just a lie, but an insanely stupid lie. Yet people in Europe and places like NYC swallow the lie. If there's not a cop two feet from them when things go south, they're AT BEST going to turn their back and TRY to run away.
  2. "I could never take a life." - Well, you've decided to "take" your OWN and give it to an assailant. When you ask them about their accompanying children, they sometimes say, they'd "die for their children", but "not kill for them". That's helpful. They're willing to be the main course so that their kids can be dessert...
The bottom line is that you've got to want to live more than your assailant wants you to die. Absent that, Gabby Gabreski and Doc Holliday would have been sitting ducks.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:55 PM
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Having seen Michael Janich on TV, I can tell you that if your assailant is an actual trained knife fighter, you have no chance with a gun. None. You'll be a bloody mess on the ground before you even know what has happened.

Luckily, few trained knife fighters are bad guys. You have some chance against creeps with knives. Note that 50% of knife attacks are fatal, whereas 90% of shooting victims don't die from it. It is much better to be shot than stabbed.
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