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Old 06-25-2017, 05:36 PM
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Default Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife

The reality needs to be part of the discourse, but is not. A knife wielding attacker who is actively/purposefully moving toward or charging the person with a holstered pistol presents a lethal threat at 35-40 feet. (The old and ill-named 21 foot rule, which is not a rule but a description of experiments done over 30 years ago is FAR too close.) Once a person standing still transitions to movement at that distance, the time needed to draw and fire is just barely within the capacity of most adequately trained persons. Remember that the ballistic reality is that pistols suck, and that most often, even with good placement, multiple rounds will be needed.

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Old 06-25-2017, 06:14 PM
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Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife
Waving hand to get attention and shouting I Know, I know. The answer is cuz if you don't pop the *** they may very well cut you wide deep and often.
I think Pharmer summed it up best, several years ago. "anyone who threatens me with a knife, just made the mistake of bringing a knife to a gun fight.
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Old 06-25-2017, 06:19 PM
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Knifes are easily capable of causing death or great bodily injury. I have seen an old man who walked with a walking stick (because he needed it) cross 21 feet and strike a target with a knife in less than two seconds. Pretending a knife is not lethal is a good way to get killed.
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Old 06-25-2017, 06:25 PM
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The great danger in a knife attack is that the assailant will not charge you but will get close to you as in arms reach and begin the attack. The method is highly unlikely to be slashing and most likely to be stabbing multiple times with short jabs.

In that case the attacked has to be able to block the jabs while either retrieving a gun or disarming the attacker. The problem with drawing is that it takes one arm out of the fight reducing the ability to block with either arm.

I can say this, it is easier to take a gun away than a knife. However a decision has to be instantly made about drawing or disarming or holding off until you can clear a draw. All bad decisions.a

I explained how I was taught to respond to a knife attack while in the Corps in posts 39 and 50 in this thread.

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Old 06-25-2017, 06:59 PM
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The knife wielding assailant, running at you, can be shot almost dead and still manage to slash you as he goes by. If you start shooting, try to move back and away and keep shooting until the gun clicks empty. You may have to use the gun to deflect the knife.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:13 PM
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Hope I never find myself in such a situation....screaming won't cut it, I guess.

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Old 06-25-2017, 07:44 PM
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The knife wielding assailant, running at you, can be shot almost dead and still manage to slash you as he goes by. If you start shooting, try to move back and away and keep shooting until the gun clicks empty. You may have to use the gun to deflect the knife.
Moving backwards or sideways can get you hurt. First, backwards means you cannot see what you might trip over, and you cannot see obstacles or people behind you. Moving sideways only means the attacker has only to change direction. He will be moving faster than you can in taking diversionary movement. Better to learns how to parry an attack. See my post above for a link to a thread where I explain how I was trained in the Corps to respond to a knife attack. I know it works.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:51 PM
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The most insideous are the perpetrators who act friendly to get close. Then they whip out their knives and go to town.

When I was camp hosting, I got the heebee geebeez from some guests. Sometimes, your instinct may be your only warning.
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Old 06-25-2017, 08:08 PM
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I disagree with your assessment of the "21 ft. rule". It is the recommended MINIMUM distance to react and defend against a knife attack using movement and a holstered firearm as a LEO. I have personally tested the 21FR and can tell you the further away you are the better BUT the 21FR teaches you to have situational awarness of distance and the persons hands and demeanor in a LEO setting. Inside of 21' you WILL get cut and you WON'T have time to react and draw a firearm.

A NON-LEO that carriers runs into a whole different set of issues. Non-LEO's are generally targets for crime and must have, IMO, a much higher SA when out and about. This in and of itself makes an edged weapon much more dangerous.

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Old 06-25-2017, 08:11 PM
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The most insideous are the perpetrators who act friendly to get close. Then they whip out their knives and go to town.

When I was camp hosting, I got the heebee geebeez from some guests. Sometimes, your instinct may be your only warning.
We used a simple threat assessment method. The four stages are: no threat, possible threat, probable threat, threat. As General Mattis once said to his Marines: "Be polite, be professional, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet." Good advice in the kind of times we live in.
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Old 06-25-2017, 08:21 PM
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Moving backwards or sideways can get you hurt. First, backwards means you cannot see what you might trip over, and you cannot see obstacles or people behind you. Moving sideways only means the attacker has only to change direction. He will be moving faster than you can in taking diversionary movement. Better to learns how to parry an attack. See my post above for a link to a thread where I explain how I was trained in the Corps to respond to a knife attack. I know it works.
I disagree. While not everyone can effectivly move backwards, space/distance creates time, increased time to react/defend. Moving sideways causes your threat to slow down to change direction, again creating more time to react/defend. The best examples are football players and boxer/fighters.

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Old 06-25-2017, 08:39 PM
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I disagree. While not everyone can effectivly move backwards, space/distance creates time, increased time to react/defend. Moving sideways causes your threat to slow down to change direction, again creating more time to react/defend. The best examples are football players and boxer/fighters.

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Having been in a couple knife fights over my 4 Nam tours, I am not speaking theoretically. Here is why I disagree with you points. Space/distance only creates time if attacker is moving slower than you. You are not going to go backwards as fast as he can close the distance with a frontal assault. Changing direction does force the attacker to slow down for maybe all of a second. But when you change direction you slow down too. No advantage. You cannot compare a knife attacker or attack with a football player, over/ fighter. They are not intent on killing you.

If you watch a boxer he only backs up when he cannot get and advantage, and the action is slow. The aggression goes boxer is not running at his opponent. Football players do not run backwards, and whe that divert to the side they are not facing the tackler, they are running away from him.

Seriously, the best thing you can do is learn to fend off a knife attack with your hands because chances are you are not going to have time to draw. Block the knife wielding arm and use your other arm to deliver a punch to the nose and a palm to. Chin strike in rapid succession. Then you can go for the arm ( not the knife) dislocate the elbow and break the wrist if the thendislocation does not end in dropping the knife. As mentioned above I have opined on the topic in post 39 and 50 in this llShooting while moving training.: four moves in 3 seconds.

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Old 06-25-2017, 08:52 PM
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P'shaw... Knifes are not lethal. As evidence I cite the Peloponnesian War, the Conquests of Alexander the Great, Hadrian, Julius Caesar, the Vikings, Mayan Conquest... Any Historian will tell you nobody got hurt before the invention of gunpowder!
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Old 06-25-2017, 09:12 PM
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P'shaw... Knifes are not lethal. As evidence I cite the Peloponnesian War, the Conquests of Alexander the Great, Hadrian, Julius Caesar, the Vikings, Mayan Conquest... Any Historian will tell you nobody got hurt before the invention of gunpowder!
Bull-Olney! That sounds like something they would teach at Berkley. A knife will kill you faster than a bullet. A bullet will push most veins, arteries and vital parts out of the way during it's travel and shock wave. A knife cuts right through all. You have a better chance of surviving a gun shot than you do a knife wound.

Of course there's exceptions. I'm talking about the general street fight. I'll empty my first mag into his head before letting someone with knife get near. Forget that macho stuff.
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Old 06-25-2017, 09:12 PM
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I disagree with your assessment of the "21 ft. rule". It is the recommended MINIMUM distance to react and defend against a knife attack using movement and a holstered firearm as a LEO. I have personally tested the 21FR and can tell you the further away you are the better BUT the 21FR teaches you to have situational awarness of distance and the persons hands and demeanor in a LEO setting. Inside of 21' you WILL get cut and you WON'T have time to react and draw a firearm.

A NON-LEO that carriers runs into a whole different set of issues. Non-LEO's are generally targets for crime and must have, IMO, a much higher SA when out and about. This in and of itself makes an edged weapon much more dangerous.

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Doug M. was correct on the very first post. The 21-foot "rule" exists only in the imagination of those who do not understand the Tueller drill. The Tueller drill is an experiment which any group of three or more people can perform for themselves. 21 feet is usually used as a distance at which to perform the cutting/stabbing part of the experiment. The other part of the experiment is learning your own draw-and-hit times. The outcome of the experiment depends to some extent on the physical condition of the knife-wielders, and even more on the draw-and-hit speed of the defenders, who are usually woefully inadequate at 21 feet. But check it out yourself. I did at Massad Ayoob's LFI-1 course.

21 feet? Fageddaboutit.
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Old 06-25-2017, 09:32 PM
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P'shaw... Knifes are not lethal. As evidence I cite the Peloponnesian War, the Conquests of Alexander the Great, Hadrian, Julius Caesar, the Vikings, Mayan Conquest... Any Historian will tell you nobody got hurt before the invention of gunpowder!
^^^^^^^^^^^

I looked up 'tongue-in-cheek' and found this.

Nicely played.
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Old 06-25-2017, 10:54 PM
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Having been in a couple knife fights over my 4 Nam tours, I am not speaking theoretically. Here is why I disagree with you points. Space/distance only creates time if attacker is moving slower than you. You are not going to go backwards as fast as he can close the distance with a frontal assault. Changing direction does force the attacker to slow down for maybe all of a second. But when you change direction you slow down too. No advantage. You cannot compare a knife attacker or attack with a football player, over/ fighter. They are not intent on killing you.

If you watch a boxer he only backs up when he cannot get and advantage, and the action is slow. The aggression goes boxer is not running at his opponent. Football players do not run backwards, and whe that divert to the side they are not facing the tackler, they are running away from him.

Seriously, the best thing you can do is learn to fend off a knife attack with your hands because chances are you are not going to have time to draw. Block the knife wielding arm and use your other arm to deliver a punch to the nose and a palm to. Chin strike in rapid succession. Then you can go for the arm ( not the knife) dislocate the elbow and break the wrist if the thendislocation does not end in dropping the knife. As mentioned above I have opined on the topic in post 39 and 50 in this llShooting while moving training.: four moves in 3 seconds.
And you can't compare a civilian situation with military combat. Having been in combat does not make one a tactition. Just as having been in a defensive gun use situation dosent make me a gunfighter. Empty hands against deadly force (knife) is a losing proposition most of the time.

It dosent appear you watch much fighting or football with you above statements.

You are disregarding may things when you dismiss the factor of time and distance. You are setting in concrete ideas that are abstract. Any advantage that increases a time to contact is a good thing. You are mistaken in saying change of direction doesn't help. Run at someone and have them move out of the way. You'll be surprised at the result. Very simplistic, I know, but I believe we all understand it.

As far as your 3 second moves, tell it to my 86 year old Dad, the 18 year old grocery clerk that plays video games for exercise or the obese smoker with a heart condition neighbor.

To many variable are present to cage a defensive situation.

"No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
German Field Marshal

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Old 06-25-2017, 10:58 PM
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P'shaw... Knifes are not lethal. As evidence I cite the Peloponnesian War, the Conquests of Alexander the Great, Hadrian, Julius Caesar, the Vikings, Mayan Conquest... Any Historian will tell you nobody got hurt before the invention of gunpowder!
Try reading John Keegan's books on ancient warefare. I think you will fins out that bladed weapons killed and maimed many thousands of ancient warriors.

As for the lethality of a knife close up or a gun. I'd rather have a gun pointed close range at me because it is easier to take it away than a knife. You can grab the gun and use it as a lever to pry it out of the hand. You can't do that with a knife. You have to parry and fight to get the knife.
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Old 06-25-2017, 11:19 PM
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...As for the lethality of a knife close up or a gun. I'd rather have a gun pointed close range at me because it is easier to take it away than a knife. You can grab the gun and use it as a lever to pry it out of the hand. You can't do that with a knife. You have to parry and fight to get the knife.
Not if you are a C.A.R. practitioner as you stated you are a fan of. I disagree with you above assessment also, BTW.



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Old 06-25-2017, 11:20 PM
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Two guys in a knife fight?
The winner is the guy who dies the next day.

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Old 06-25-2017, 11:36 PM
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Old 06-25-2017, 11:44 PM
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Best way to survive a knife attack is to not get into a knife attack. Situational awareness, and common sense go much farther to prevent such an attack.

It is not the movies, or TV, the attacker is not going to warn you, or run at you from a distance. They are going to get close with the knife concealed.

If a knife attacker does come at you, offense is the best defense against an attack. Most likely you are going to get cut, but where makes a big difference in your ability to continue the fight. The marine is right, whether a soldier, cop, or civilian. Disarming is your only hope at close distance.

Many things I do seem not important to most. When in a parking lot I get a cart in the lot, there is a good reason for this, obstacles are vital when attacked with weapons other than guns. Pay attention, most times attackers will give off vibes. Keep distance from people who have a grudge, many knife attacks come from known attackers. Don't get into arguments, you never know who will go off the deep end. Learn to walk away from a conflict.

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Old 06-25-2017, 11:50 PM
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Best way to survive a knife attack is to not get into a knife attack. Situational awareness, and common sense go much farther to prevent such an attack.

It is not the movies, or TV, the attacker is not going to warn you, or run at you from a distance. They are going to get close with the knife concealed.

If a knife attacker does come at you, offense is the best defense against an attack. Most likely you are going to get cut, but where makes a big difference in your ability to continue the fight. The marine is right, whether a soldier, cop, or civilian. Disarming is your only hope at close distance.
Exactly right.
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Old 06-25-2017, 11:52 PM
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Effective sarcasm is a fine art that few seem to grasp.
You said it, brother.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:02 AM
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Not if you are a C.A.R. practitioner as you stated you are a fan of. I disagree with you above assessment also, BTW.



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Yes I am a CAR practitioner, and what I wrote is valid. In a close quarter knife attack CAR would call,upon you to parry the knife with you weak side arm while drawing with your dominant hand. That is an excellent technique, but it is abstract. In reality you might have to parry with your dominant arm because the attacker is left handed and you are right handed. Ever try to draw with your dominant arm engaged?

It is winter, and you have a heavy coat on and it covers your gun. The attack happens and you parry the thrusts with your weak side arm. Now, that arm is engaged, and it has to stay engaged. So you cannot pull up your coat with it to engage your pistol for a draw. You have to use your dominantnhand to get the coat above the gun so you can draw it. That takes precious time because parrying a knife without taking a countermeasure can get you stabbed. So it is not inconsistent with CAR to use other skills when a CAR exercise is impeded. The idea is not to be a purist but to be a winner.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:24 AM
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Some advice. Carry a walking stick, avoid bad places/people, look for obstacles, if possible have your gun in your hand already when something is fishy. One of the advantages of pocket carry, and purse/man bag carry with a conceal carry bag, or carrying in the pocket of a coat or jacket. Nobody is going to be alarmed if you have a gun in your hand, you can shoot through the pocket, or bag.

If you can afford it a personal protection dog usually runs from $5K to $10K. The trainer for the local PD's had one for $6K last month. It crossed my mind buying her, but someone beat me to it when I finally called.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:37 AM
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Of the two main streams of thought here, which has the greater weight? Is it the "Been there, done that... and I have the training to back it up.", or is it the "From what I've read in books, and this is really something I've never had any actual experience with..."?

C'mon, already. Supposition and theory will lose that argument every time.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:54 AM
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Some advice. Carry a walking stick, avoid bad places/people, look for obstacles, if possible have your gun in your hand already when something is fishy. One of the advantages of pocket carry, and purse/man bag carry with a conceal carry bag, or carrying in the pocket of a coat or jacket. Nobody is going to be alarmed if you have a gun in your hand, you can shoot through the pocket, or bag.

If you can afford it a personal protection dog usually runs from $5K to $10K. The trainer for the local PD's had one for $6K last month. It crossed my mind buying her, but someone beat me to it when I finally called.
Walking wolf,you ought to be training people. You get it. And better they spend money on a protection dog than hours of training from trainers who learned from trainers who learned from trainers. Sometimes actual experience is better than a succession of trainers who have no actual experience. Theory is great but experience is greater.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:12 AM
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P'shaw... Knifes are not lethal. As evidence I cite the Peloponnesian War, the Conquests of Alexander the Great, Hadrian, Julius Caesar, the Vikings, Mayan Conquest... Any Historian will tell you nobody got hurt before the invention of gunpowder!
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:28 PM
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Rich,
I disagree with some of your thoughts...a man that trains with a knife,I don't mean once a week will take you apart.Really...yeah ,he will be cutting,& moving while you are "trying" a disarm! Most who prefer a blade..will cut you "before"you even see it.I do,however respect your thoughts.
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:49 PM
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Rich,
I disagree with some of your thoughts...a man that trains with a knife,I don't mean once a week will take you apart.Really...yeah ,he will be cutting,& moving while you are "trying" a disarm! Most who prefer a blade..will cut you "before"you even see it.I do,however respect your thoughts.
Jim
Jim, oddly enough I do not disagree with you. From eperience I can attest to the validity of your comment. I have a 2 inch scar about five inches below my left armpit that a knife wielding NVA gave me. He was too fast for me. Getting stabbed sucks, but I got my first of two Purple Hearts that day. Really I would have preferred to not get the medal.

Unfortunately for him he did not hit my lung and had some difficultt retracting the knife. Gave just enough leeway to dispatch him to an ancestor visit.

Everyone should understand that I never meant to make it seem easy to disarm a knife weilder. It is not. Success depends upon the ability to parry the first thrust while instantaneously delivering a couple hard face blows, followed by the disarm movement. The parry and face blows has to happen in a second. If the hits are hard enough the attacker is disoriented for a couple seconds allowing the disarm. Mis one mess up any step and you are going to get stabbed, but your not getting a medal for it.

Fortunately the vast majority of knife attacks are not done by people trained to do it. We were trained in knife fighing but not enough to be good at it. That is why we practiced defense for a couple hours every day while preparing to be deployed.

So we actually see eye to eye. If you can run away from a knife assault that is the best recourse. If you have to defend and cannot employ your gun, then hopefully you have some ability to defend. As I said in another post I would rather take a gun way from an attacker than a knife.

Rich
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:55 PM
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Rich,
No problems,my brother is a former Marine ,HONOR MAN...PI grE BEEN AN OLD China d WW2(might have been an old China Marine)
,fat bald,I was young & mean.Well..."HE",offered to teach me a little bit....Dad just smiled,we didn't use real blades....we squared off & he moved....I mean he disappeared ...I mean he was ..GONEEEE! I got cut up good(thankfully no blades were used!My education began.....much,much later I was introduced to Mr.Bram Frank(great teacher)...& became one of his instructors!I'm 73 & consider myself to be....a kind,"elderly gentleman!LOL! Apologize for being soooo long winded!Yeah,I still carry.
Jim
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Old 06-26-2017, 05:58 PM
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A knife is deadly force, PERIOD.

If you attack me with a knife, you WILL be shot.
  1. I will not turn my back and run away.
  2. I will not try to "reason" with you.
  3. I will not try to shoot the knife out of your hand.
If you don't want to get shot, don't unlawfully use deadly force against people. It's just as simple as that.

I'm just glad I don't live in the UK where I'd be expected to keep calm and bleed out...
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:11 PM
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If you can afford it a personal protection dog usually runs from $5K to $10K. The trainer for the local PD's had one for $6K last month. It crossed my mind buying her, but someone beat me to it when I finally called.
For a personal protection dog, nothing beats a Kavkazkaya Ovcharka. Very loyal and very protective.
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:27 PM
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Effective sarcasm is a fine art that few seem to grasp.
To be truly effective, sarcasm must not appear to be sarcasm. People need to believe your comments are serious, particularly if the target of the sarcasm doesn't know what they're talking about in the first place.

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Old 06-26-2017, 08:36 PM
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Watch this. It happens faster than you think.



If you don't think creating distance (buying time) is important, think again. Know your surroundings. Know where you can move if you need to. Part of your situational awareness plan isn't only knowing where potential trouble will come from, but a very important part of it is knowing where you can escape to or create distance. Cover and concealment should also be part of the plan.

I've been cut twice. I didn't even have a chance to defend myself because I let them get to close. Won't happen again.
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Old 06-26-2017, 08:53 PM
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Watch this. It happens faster than you think.

Stabbing Leads to Officer Involved Shooting Caught From Multiple Angles | Active Self Protection - YouTube

Knife Attack on Officer Caught on Camera - YouTube

If you don't think creating distance (buying time) is important, think again. Know your surroundings. Know where you can move if you need to. Part of your situational plan isn't only knowing where potential trouble will come from, but a very important part of it is knowing where you can escape to or create distance. Cover and concealment should also be part of the plan.

I've been cut twice. I didn't even have a chance to defend myself because I let them get to close. Won't happen again.
Great video that makes a point. However consider that as the LEO backed up the attacker did not charge the LEO until the LEO had achieved enough separation to draw and shoot. The LEO had a duty to stand and fight. I do not. I would turn and run in such a situation. If my attacker gives me the opportunity to evade, I am taking it. Unlike a LEO I have no duty to subdue or neutralize the threat. My duty is to save my life.

Th LEO was lucky because the attacker made an uncharacteristic attack. Seems to me he might have been trying for suicide by cop, and he succeeded.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:12 PM
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So are we okay to kill people that attack us with knives or do we have to *****foot around and neutralize them? Personally I'm not up for getting cut, so the level of neutralization they receive is going to be amazingly​ effective. I'm also going to run away screaming, "Hellllllp! He's got a knife! Call the poh lease!" just in case and cry hysterically​ when I tell the police how terrified I was of the evil boogie man with the knife.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:14 PM
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Watched vids in post #37. Will definitely make a believer out of you.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:18 PM
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Great video that makes a point. However consider that as the LEO backed up the attacker did not charge the LEO until the LEO had achieved enough separation to draw and shoot. The LEO had a duty to stand and fight. I do not. I would turn and run in such a situation. If my attacker gives me the opportunity to evade, I am taking it. Unlike a LEO I have no duty to subdue or neutralize the threat. My duty is to save my life.

Th LEO was lucky because the attacker made an uncharacteristic attack. Seems to me he might have been trying for suicide by cop, and he succeeded.
Getting to old to run. And much of the time my wife is with me. She can't run well at all. I will stand and fight instead of being run down from behind or stabbed in the back.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:31 PM
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The LEO had a duty to stand and fight. I do not. I would turn and run in such a situation. If my attacker gives me the opportunity to evade, I am taking it. Unlike a LEO I have no duty to subdue or neutralize the threat. My duty is to save my life.
If you are a sprinter I am happy for you, run, well, unless your infant daughter is in a stroller, or your toddler son is with you, or your elderly mother with her walker over to your right, or Sister Mary Teresa. Maybe you are the Boy Scout leader, or a teacher on a field trip. Then you aren't able to. Or if you just are not fast, or old, or have some condition that slows you down. Then you just might end up being stabbed in the back as you run.

Don't get me wrong, we all win 100 percent of the fights we don't get into. Situational awareness is important. Evasion is important. Sometimes we just have to stand and fight. Its good to have a plan. Its good to live in a county where thinking like this is not considered a mental illness.
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:34 AM
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Getting to old to run. And much of the time my wife is with me. She can't run well at all. I will stand and fight instead of being run down from behind or stabbed in the back.
I was a lousy runner as a twenty one year old Infantry Second Lieutenant. At sixty, I'm not one second faster.

I don't have the slightest intention of running because I know I'm not going to win that race.

Of course Ohio law doesn't require me to run, merely ATTEMPT to withdraw if I can do so IN PERFECT SAFETY. Turning my back on an assailant armed with a deadly weapon, whom I KNOW I can't outrun fails that criterion on the face of it.

The farthest I'm running is to cover for a supported firing position.
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:38 AM
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The LEO had a duty to stand and fight.
Really?

From whence does this supposed "duty" arise?

And what's the penalty if he DOESN'T?

There's abundant case law that police have NO duty to protect individuals. Start with Castle Rock.
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:51 AM
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Really?

From whence does this supposed "duty" arise?

And what's the penalty if he DOESN'T?

There's abundant case law that police have NO duty to protect individuals. Start with Castle Rock.
I never said or implied that a LEO had a duty to protect others. He has a duty to protect himself. My comment was made in regard to the video above my post that showed a LEO backing up to get distance between a knife attacker and himself which allowed him adequate time to fire. The LEO will have Much easier time justifying that shooting, than I would if it turns out that I could have evaded or run away, and the video shows there was an ample opportunity to that. I live by the belief that you shoot only as the last alternative. I think a lot of courts apply that criteria to SD shooting.
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:00 PM
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Getting to old to run. And much of the time my wife is with me. She can't run well at all. I will stand and fight instead of being run down from behind or stabbed in the back.
Well I agree that when you can't do something that might get you out of a threatening encounter or an attack you have to take other action.

At 75 I am not the runner I was when in the Corps. But I can run a short distance. That is all I need to be able to draw, turn and fire. If I was with someone that would not be an option. Keep in mind that my various comment have been part of a debate about putting time and distance from an attacker. I was arguing that side stepping and backing up are not the best options for that. If you want distance quickly turn and run, if you can. That does mean you have to run away. You just have to get a chance to draw before the attacker stabs you. Remember if attacked by a knife it is likely to start when the attacker is right on top of you so you might not be able to draw fast enough. That is why I have been stating that a person best have some other defensive skills.
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:07 PM
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I live by the belief that you shoot only as the last alternative. I think a lot of courts apply that criteria to SD shooting.
I live by the belief that deadly force should be met by deadly force, and that I have ZERO duty to incur ANY risk to protect somebody from the consequences of their CHOICE to maim or murder me. Fortunately, the Ohio Revised Code in no way contradicts that.

If you decide to come after me with a knife, that will be PURELY a matter of YOUR choice, with no CONCEIVABLE justification.

If as recently happened at Ohio State, you pull out a knife (after having run somebody over) and start slashing people while screaming "Allahu akhbar", I'm not going to run away, nor am I going to argue the finer points of sharia law with you. What I WILL do is show you why the Republic of the Philippines is developing a reputation for producing quality firearms.

Choices have consequences, sometime including being "Mozambiqued". If you try to knife me to death, that's what will happen and it's 100% on you.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:24 PM
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jag312:

Man, those aren't dogs... they're bears wearing dog masks!!!
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:11 PM
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I've never been a sprinter, but just the thought of getting sliced up by a knife-wielding attacker I think might be enough to make me grow wings and fly.
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:28 PM
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Yet another knife attack...this one inside an enclosed ATM machine lobby...

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Old 06-27-2017, 03:02 PM
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Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife Why one should expect to need to shoot an assailant with a knife  
Join Date: Apr 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideWaist View Post
Yet another knife attack...this one inside an enclosed ATM machine lobby...

ATM Mugging Turns Ugly in a Hurry (Not for the Faint of Heart) | Active Self Protection - YouTube
I just don't do ATM's, but I have years ago when some business still required cash. I will not, would not use a ATM when there are other people there. It is asking for trouble, I would either stay in the car until nobody was there, or find another ATM.

ASP is pretty good, but I am surprised they missed pointing out the obvious of not being in known dangerous places.

I have said over, and over again. Use your brain, and your chances of being a victim drop to outrageously low percentage.
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