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Old 07-08-2017, 07:23 AM
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How many rounds do you carry?
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Old 07-08-2017, 07:52 AM
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One speed strip plus two speed loaders in the car for my 340PD.
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:02 AM
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In the Burbs of the Burgh...... 3913 7+1 and a spare mag.

up gun to a PC Shorty9 (6906) 12+1 and a spare 15rd magazine w/ +2 adapter or 915 at 17+1 plus 17


Revolvers have been woods guns since the early 90s........... 1-2 speedloaders +P .38 and or .357 and a 12 round ammo wallet.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 07-08-2017 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:08 AM
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Normal day, Two J-Frames and Two Speed Loaders.
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:43 AM
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Either an SL variant speedloader or one speed strip with 4 rounds so a total of 9 or 10. That's it.

If I feel the need to go in an area where 10 rounds or less makes me uncomfortable I grab the Glock 26 with a 22 round ETS backup mag.
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:13 AM
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A Ruger LCR.38 with one speed strip for casual carry. Very small and very easy to conceal in any kind of weather.

Going to the city Or "if something is going on" a Springfield XDs .45 with one extra mag will be on me.

If a situation is occurring that looks real bad I will drop back to my customized series 70.45 Gold Cup with a couple spare mags. I carried this for years in the metropolitan area.

Always a speed strip in the glove compartment and a Xds mag and If I had the GC there would be a a couple extra mags close.
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:11 AM
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On a day to day basis in the city and burbs, I carry a Colt Commander with 8 rounds of 45 acp (I'm not enamored of 8 round magazines). Less frequently, a M38.

I don't carry a reload: if I can't solve a sd problem with what's in the gun, more ammo isn't going to help. I don't entertain zombie fantasies.

Unless you plan on missing a lot, I can't imagine a real life sd situation that would call for more ammo than what's in the gun.
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:16 AM
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Depends on the outfit and the environment. If I can carry a couple of reloads and a BUG I'll do it, if all I can conceal is a pistol and no reloads I still consider that better than nothing.
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:58 AM
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Normally, I'll carry a 686+, and a speed strip. The odds are overwhelming that I'll never need it, but it's flat, light and easy to carry. It makes me feel better - and it's my version of a fidget spinner.

I also practice with a speed loader, and carry one on rare occasions, just for fun. However, speed loaders tend to be bulky, even small ones like the HKS, and even when carried in a slip over carrier that reduces the profile. I practice with one large because I enjoy the challenge of maxing out pistol qualification courses with a revolver. It makes the hi cap pistol guys grumpy when you beat them with a revolver, and that's called "fun".

Reloads in the real world.

In terms of real world self defense, it's hard to overlook the reality that 95% of all self defense shoots involve 5 rounds or less in 5 seconds or less. In fact the FBI found based on 12 years of agent involved shoots that 75% of all shoots occurred at 3 yards or less with 3 rounds or less fired in 3 seconds or less.

The truth is unless you are incredibly unlucky, you just are not going to need a reload, even with a 5 shot revolver. The probability of even being in a self defense shoot is very low (and even lower if you're using common sense and good situational awareness), and in the event that low probability occurs the odds are only 1 in 20 that you'd need more than 5 rounds.

I know... you're probably not buying this argument because all the tacti-cool-done-time-downrange instructors talk about the need for high capacity pistols, reloads, multiple magazines, etc - including the recent NRA self defense programs.

Let's look at the numbers....

Based on FBI data, in any given year there are only around 300 justifiable homicides involving armed citizens. That sounds low, but it compares to about 400 each year by law enforcement officers, which actually makes the armed citizen total pretty significant - they are facing and shooting threats at fully 3/4 the the rate of police officers.

Bear in mind however that it's estimated that roughly 40% of law abiding adults in the US own a firearm (which would be around 96 million gun owners), compared to about 120,000 federal and 680,000 state and local full time police officers in the US (800,000 total). That 96 million is very rough as it is very hard to get accurate numbers on gun ownership, since we don't require registration (thank God) and many people, particularly women, won't disclose that they own a gun in a poll or survey. We do know there were 11.1 million people with concealed carry permits in 2014, and while we don't know how many of those actively conceal carry, it's safe to say they own a gun.

The number of assailants killed however is a very misleading as the number of times an armed citizen uses a handgun in self defense is estimated at between 65,000 and 80,000 times per year - with a significant number of these probably never being reported to the police.

That suggests the assailant is shot and killed only about .5% of the time when a gun is used in self defense. That's not all that surprising however as even bad guys don't like to get shot, and producing a gun ha s profound psychological effect on an assailant, particularly when they were not expecting the potential victim to be armed.

Estimates vary, but it's believed that producing a gun is sufficient to stop an assailant in about 70% to 95% of instances where a gun is brandished in self defense.

If you carry a high capacity semi-auto and a pair of spare magazines, you're probably not going to like this...

Based on the most conservative numbers up above, you have only a .00083% probability of drawing your handgun in self defense in any given year. If you have to draw it in self defense the probability you will have to shoot it only .30, and if you fire, the probability is only .05 that you'll need more than 5 rounds in the engagement.

In summary, this year the probabilities for us average armed citizens are:

0.00083 (0.083%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.000249 (0.0249%)that we'll need to fire; and
.00001245 (0.002145%) that we'll need to reload.

In other words, the need for a reload in an armed citizen self defense shoot exists in just 1 in approximately 80,000 self defense shoots.

Even if we only consider the 11.1 million concealed carry permit holders, the numbers look like this:

0.0072 (0.72%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.00216 (0.216%)that we'll need to fire; and
.000108 (0.0108%) that we'll need to reload.

That's a reload needed in just 1 in 10,000 armed citizen self defense shoots.

Training and EDC implications

If you want to train for that incredibly low probability event, and carry a high capacity semi-auto with 2 spare magazine to be ready for that extremely low probability event - by all means knock yourself out.

But be realistic and honest enough to admit that you're prepping for some sort of post apocalyptic zombie scenario or maybe a mall ninja terrorist scenario, rather than a real world need.

There are more productive areas to spend your training time and dollars. I'd much rather see shooters shooting often, and working on:

- developing a consistent grip that facilitates automatic alignment of the rear sight with the front sight as you draw and present the weapon;
- developing an ingrained habit of verifying the rear sight alignment in slow fire, and at speed, verifying the placement of the front blade on target and relying on the grip o take care of rear sight alignment (the whole process becomes incredibly fast once the grip is properly developed and makes accurate self defense shooting and decent bullet placement possible);
- drawing and shooting from concealment; and
-developing the footwork needed to draw and shoot while moving laterally, or to the rear, toward cover.

All of the above will make you far more effective in a gun fight than practicing a reload you'll (for all practical purposes) never need.

Besides, rather than wasting training dollars on this in a class, you can practice a reload by doing a tactical reload every time you load your handgun, rather than doing an administrative reload. What do I mean? If you feel you want to carry a speed strip or speed loader, use the speed strip or speed loader, every time you load your revolver. Over weeks, months and years, doing this under time pressure, you'll develop the muscle memory to load pretty effectively under fire if the need ever arises.

You can also do it at the range and find what works best for you and your particular revolver - the FBI reload, the Universal Reload, or the Stress Fire reload. A google search will educate you on the differences, and the pros and cons of each.

If you carry a semi-auto pistol, there's some justification for carrying a spare magazine even if you'll never need the extra rounds. In the event you get a mis-feed, any jam that is not resolved with a quick tap-rack-bang immediate action is probably best addressed by dropping the magazining, clearing the weapon and inserting your spare magazine.

However, the idea that you might get a misfeed is based largely on what happens in a practical pistol match or range session where you're shooting maybe 300 rounds of cast bullet reloads cranked off you progressive press without cleaning your pistol. A failure to feed is a lot more likely in that scenario than it is with your recently cleaned self defense pistols shooting high quality self defense rounds that you've tested for reliability (at least 200 rounds down range without a failure).

If you're expecting a failure to feed with your self defense pistol and ammunition, you're clearly carrying the wrong pistol and/or ammunition.

Last edited by BB57; 07-08-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:05 AM
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Good data. You cannot prepare for everything. For most applications, you should have brought a rifle. That being said, just carrying a serviceable firearm filled with modern self defense hollow points that you are proficient with gives you a leg up on most of the population in terms of self defense.

That being said, a 5 shot snub is more than enough unless I am venturing into a place that I feel uncomfortable.

I live rural. In a low crime area.I do not feel the need or desire to carry my hicaps.

I also follow the 4S rule:

I avoid: Stupid people, doing Stupid things, and/or going to Stupid places, at Stupid times.


The 442 or Bulldog work just fine for me.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:14 AM
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A double HKS carrier with 686+ speedloaders or moonclips.


Last edited by bigwheelzip; 07-08-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:44 AM
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Whatever the gun holds. I got enough other **** in my pockets.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
Normally, I'll carry a 686+, and a speed strip. The odds are overwhelming that I'll never need it, but it's flat, light and easy to carry. It makes me feel better - and it's my version of a fidget spinner.

I also practice with a speed loader, and carry one on rare occasions, just for fun. However, speed loaders tend to be bulky, even small ones like the HKS, and even when carried in a slip over carrier that reduces the profile. I practice with one large because I enjoy the challenge of maxing out pistol qualification courses with a revolver. It makes the hi cap pistol guys grumpy when you beat them with a revolver, and that's called "fun".

Reloads in the real world.

In terms of real world self defense, it's hard to overlook the reality that 95% of all self defense shoots involve 5 rounds or less in 5 seconds or less. In fact the FBI found based on 12 years of agent involved shoots that 75% of all shoots occurred at 3 yards or less with 3 rounds or less fired in 3 seconds or less.

The truth is unless you are incredibly unlucky, you just are not going to need a reload, even with a 5 shot revolver. The probability of even being in a self defense shoot is very low (and even lower if you're using common sense and good situational awareness), and in the event that low probability occurs the odds are only 1 in 20 that you'd need more than 5 rounds.

I know... you're probably not buying this argument because all the tacti-cool-done-time-downrange instructors talk about the need for high capacity pistols, reloads, multiple magazines, etc - including the recent NRA self defense programs.

Let's look at the numbers....

Based on FBI data, in any given year there are only around 300 justifiable homicides involving armed citizens. That sounds low, but it compares to about 400 each year by law enforcement officers, which actually makes the armed citizen total pretty significant - they are facing and shooting threats at fully 3/4 the the rate of police officers.

Bear in mind however that it's estimated that roughly 40% of law abiding adults in the US own a firearm (which would be around 96 million gun owners), compared to about 120,000 federal and 680,000 state and local full time police officers in the US (800,000 total). That 96 million is very rough as it is very hard to get accurate numbers on gun ownership, since we don't require registration (thank God) and many people, particularly women, won't disclose that they own a gun in a poll or survey. We do know there were 11.1 million people with concealed carry permits in 2014, and while we don't know how many of those actively conceal carry, it's safe to say they own a gun.

The number of assailants killed however is a very misleading as the number of times an armed citizen uses a handgun in self defense is estimated at between 65,000 and 80,000 times per year - with a significant number of these probably never being reported to the police.

That suggests the assailant is shot and killed only about .5% of the time when a gun is used in self defense. That's not all that surprising however as even bad guys don't like to get shot, and producing a gun ha s profound psychological effect on an assailant, particularly when they were not expecting the potential victim to be armed.

Estimates vary, but it's believed that producing a gun is sufficient to stop an assailant in about 70% to 95% of instances where a gun is brandished in self defense.

If you carry a high capacity semi-auto and a pair of spare magazines, you're probably not going to like this...

Based on the most conservative numbers up above, you have only a .00083% probability of drawing your handgun in self defense in any given year. If you have to draw it in self defense the probability you will have to shoot it only .30, and if you fire, the probability is only .05 that you'll need more than 5 rounds in the engagement.

In summary, this year the probabilities for us average armed citizens are:

0.00083 (0.083%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.000249 (0.0249%)that we'll need to fire; and
.00001245 (0.002145%) that we'll need to reload.

In other words, the need for a reload in an armed citizen self defense shoot exists in just 1 in approximately 80,000 self defense shoots.

Even if we only consider the 11.1 million concealed carry permit holders, the numbers look like this:

0.0072 (0.72%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.00216 (0.216%)that we'll need to fire; and
.000108 (0.0108%) that we'll need to reload.

That's a reload needed in just 1 in 10,000 armed citizen self defense shoots.

Training and EDC implications

If you want to train for that incredibly low probability event, and carry a high capacity semi-auto with 2 spare magazine to be ready for that extremely low probability event - by all means knock yourself out.

But be realistic and honest enough to admit that you're prepping for some sort of post apocalyptic zombie scenario or maybe a mall ninja terrorist scenario, rather than a real world need.

There are more productive areas to spend your training time and dollars. I'd much rather see shooters shooting often, and working on:

- developing a consistent grip that facilitates automatic alignment of the rear sight with the front sight as you draw and present the weapon;
- developing an ingrained habit of verifying the rear sight alignment in slow fire, and at speed, verifying the placement of the front blade on target and relying on the grip o take care of rear sight alignment (the whole process becomes incredibly fast once the grip is properly developed and makes accurate self defense shooting and decent bullet placement possible);
- drawing and shooting from concealment; and
-developing the footwork needed to draw and shoot while moving laterally, or to the rear, toward cover.

All of the above will make you far more effective in a gun fight than practicing a reload you'll (for all practical purposes) never need.

Besides, rather than wasting training dollars on this in a class, you can practice a reload by doing a tactical reload every time you load your handgun, rather than doing an administrative reload. What do I mean? If you feel you want to carry a speed strip or speed loader, use the speed strip or speed loader, every time you load your revolver. Over weeks, months and years, doing this under time pressure, you'll develop the muscle memory to load pretty effectively under fire if the need ever arises.

You can also do it at the range and find what works best for you and your particular revolver - the FBI reload, the Universal Reload, or the Stress Fire reload. A google search will educate you on the differences, and the pros and cons of each.

If you carry a semi-auto pistol, there's some justification for carrying a spare magazine even if you'll never need the extra rounds. In the event you get a mis-feed, any jam that is not resolved with a quick tap-rack-bang immediate action is probably best addressed by dropping the magazining, clearing the weapon and inserting your spare magazine.

However, the idea that you might get a misfeed is based largely on what happens in a practical pistol match or range session where you're shooting maybe 300 rounds of cast bullet reloads cranked off you progressive press without cleaning your pistol. A failure to feed is a lot more likely in that scenario than it is with your recently cleaned self defense pistols shooting high quality self defense rounds that you've tested for reliability (at least 200 rounds down range without a failure).

If you're expecting a failure to feed with your self defense pistol and ammunition, you're clearly carrying the wrong pistol and/or ammunition.
This is sound advice. If you taught a course on concealed carry or defensive shooting in my area I'd take it.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
Good data. You cannot prepare for everything. For most applications, you should have brought a rifle.

I also follow the 4S rule:

I avoid: Stupid people, doing Stupid things, and/or going to Stupid places, at Stupid times.


The 442 or Bulldog work just fine for me.

This. I live in a very warm climate and don't dress around the gun. I have a pocket carried PD 340 with 5 x 357.. I might have a speed strip on me, with at least two speed loaders in the car.

I'm not a cop anymore, so I just stay away from the areas where I feel like I need a hi-cap on me.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:27 PM
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I usually carry either a M49 5 shot J frame, or a 431PD 6 shot 32 H&R Magnum.

In either case, I carry one speed strip for a reload.

I agree with the thinking that a reload is rarely needed, but since a single speed strip weighs nothing and is easily concealed, I figure why not carry one?
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldiesradio1560 View Post
How many rounds do you carry?
As many as I can get in my little red wagon, and pull behind me.

Honestly depends, if I am using belt loops, and/or speed loaders. Usually I carry two reloads, but two belts have loops so that adds an extra 12 rounds.
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:24 PM
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Typically, 15 rounds, 5 in my 642 and a pair of 5-round speedloaders in JOX pouches on my belt. On rare occasion I carry my gun and a speed strip with 4 rounds if, for whatever reason, I can't wear my usual attire.

I fully agree that having to use my gun in self defense is very unlikely, and even more unlikely to need a reload. At the same time, if needing to use a gun in self defense is so rare, why carry at all? Because there's no telling who is going to be the outlier, or when/where it will happen. It's like insurance: You don't want anything to happen, you don't expect anything to happen, but if something does happen you want to be prepared for it.

For the most part, it's all about playing the odds. Some people will want to stack the odds in their favor as much as possible by carrying a double-stack gun with 2 spare magazines, a back-up gun, a reload for the back-up gun, a pair of knives, a pair of flashlights, and a trauma kit. If someone wants to carry that much gear and is comfortable with it, and it doesn't impede their life, then more power to them. I'm satisfied with carrying my snub because it's sufficient for the most likely of improbable situations. I carry a reload because if I am unfortunate enough to have to fire in self defense, I don't want to wait for the police with an empty or nearly empty gun. Average 911 response times in my town are around 9 minutes. I carry 2 reloads for two reasons: 1) I'm anticipating the likelihood that if I do have to fire in self defense I'm likely to have shaky hands from the effects of the fight-or-flight response and may end up dropping my reload, so if that happens I'd rather just reach for a second reload from my belt and get my gun loaded than to look for my dropped speedloader; and 2) I carry my reloads behind my left hip (I use the deBethencourt reload method, it's also consistent with how I've been trained to reload with semi-autos) and I've found that my cover shirt tends to "drape" better over 2 speedloaders and print less than 1 reload, if that makes sense.* I also have contingency plans that I practice in the event that what I have ends up being insufficient (Contingency Plan Alpha: Run away screaming like a little girl ). More importantly, for me, carrying a gun and 2 speedloaders in this manner is very convenient and comfortable for me, so I have no issues with it. Not everyone will share the same opinion, and that's fine. Everybody has different needs, situations, circumstances, etc.

I do practice reloads using snap caps as part of my dry fire routine, mostly because I want to be able to do them as smooth and fumble-free as possible, not get lightning quick reloads. I have to admit, it's also a fun exercise for me. However, I don't practice them that often as I prefer to prioritize my practice time on more important skills, like drawing from concealment. I'd say for every minute I practice reloads, I probably spend 5-10 minutes practicing the draw. And of course, practicing reloads at the range when you run out of ammo is a good idea. Occasionally, I'll also practice one-handed reloads and malfunction clearance drills (yes, revolvers can malfunction, so it's a good idea to know how to correct them if possible or carry on without a functioning gun if it's not possible). I don't practice tactical reloads with revolvers as I believe it's impractical with a higher likelihood of fumbling. I just dump whatever's in my cylinder and reload. Reloads-with-retention is do-able with semi-auto magazines, but I see tactical reloads as an attempt to juggle while under stress. Just my opinion, based on my own experiences.

Apologies for yet another novel. Sometimes I swear I don't know what the word "concise" means.



* Apologies for the run-on sentence from hell.

Last edited by ContinentalOp; 07-08-2017 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:40 PM
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6 rounds in a Kimber K6s and a 8 round speed strip.
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Old 07-08-2017, 02:16 PM
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5 in gun (442 or 36) 5 in a speed strip.......

Full size revolver in vehicle vault with 4 speed loaders of 38+p...

If I'm expecting trouble....I stay home
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Old 07-08-2017, 02:42 PM
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For most quick runs and casual get togethers, I carry this with the 6 rounds it holds, nothing more. If I feel like more might be needed, I throw a speedloader in my pocket for an extra reload. The odds of having to shoot over a dozen rounds is very slim, and I don't even worry about it.

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Old 07-08-2017, 02:42 PM
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Two speed strips dor Colt DS. Three speed loaders for larger revolvers.
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:09 PM
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Normally, I'll carry a 686+, and a speed strip. The odds are overwhelming that I'll never need it, but it's flat, light and easy to carry. It makes me feel better - and it's my version of a fidget spinner.

I also practice with a speed loader, and carry one on rare occasions, just for fun. However, speed loaders tend to be bulky, even small ones like the HKS, and even when carried in a slip over carrier that reduces the profile. I practice with one large because I enjoy the challenge of maxing out pistol qualification courses with a revolver. It makes the hi cap pistol guys grumpy when you beat them with a revolver, and that's called "fun".

Reloads in the real world.

In terms of real world self defense, it's hard to overlook the reality that 95% of all self defense shoots involve 5 rounds or less in 5 seconds or less. In fact the FBI found based on 12 years of agent involved shoots that 75% of all shoots occurred at 3 yards or less with 3 rounds or less fired in 3 seconds or less.

The truth is unless you are incredibly unlucky, you just are not going to need a reload, even with a 5 shot revolver. The probability of even being in a self defense shoot is very low (and even lower if you're using common sense and good situational awareness), and in the event that low probability occurs the odds are only 1 in 20 that you'd need more than 5 rounds.

I know... you're probably not buying this argument because all the tacti-cool-done-time-downrange instructors talk about the need for high capacity pistols, reloads, multiple magazines, etc - including the recent NRA self defense programs.

Let's look at the numbers....

Based on FBI data, in any given year there are only around 300 justifiable homicides involving armed citizens. That sounds low, but it compares to about 400 each year by law enforcement officers, which actually makes the armed citizen total pretty significant - they are facing and shooting threats at fully 3/4 the the rate of police officers.

Bear in mind however that it's estimated that roughly 40% of law abiding adults in the US own a firearm (which would be around 96 million gun owners), compared to about 120,000 federal and 680,000 state and local full time police officers in the US (800,000 total). That 96 million is very rough as it is very hard to get accurate numbers on gun ownership, since we don't require registration (thank God) and many people, particularly women, won't disclose that they own a gun in a poll or survey. We do know there were 11.1 million people with concealed carry permits in 2014, and while we don't know how many of those actively conceal carry, it's safe to say they own a gun.

The number of assailants killed however is a very misleading as the number of times an armed citizen uses a handgun in self defense is estimated at between 65,000 and 80,000 times per year - with a significant number of these probably never being reported to the police.

That suggests the assailant is shot and killed only about .5% of the time when a gun is used in self defense. That's not all that surprising however as even bad guys don't like to get shot, and producing a gun ha s profound psychological effect on an assailant, particularly when they were not expecting the potential victim to be armed.

Estimates vary, but it's believed that producing a gun is sufficient to stop an assailant in about 70% to 95% of instances where a gun is brandished in self defense.

If you carry a high capacity semi-auto and a pair of spare magazines, you're probably not going to like this...

Based on the most conservative numbers up above, you have only a .00083% probability of drawing your handgun in self defense in any given year. If you have to draw it in self defense the probability you will have to shoot it only .30, and if you fire, the probability is only .05 that you'll need more than 5 rounds in the engagement.

In summary, this year the probabilities for us average armed citizens are:

0.00083 (0.083%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.000249 (0.0249%)that we'll need to fire; and
.00001245 (0.002145%) that we'll need to reload.

In other words, the need for a reload in an armed citizen self defense shoot exists in just 1 in approximately 80,000 self defense shoots.

Even if we only consider the 11.1 million concealed carry permit holders, the numbers look like this:

0.0072 (0.72%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.00216 (0.216%)that we'll need to fire; and
.000108 (0.0108%) that we'll need to reload.

That's a reload needed in just 1 in 10,000 armed citizen self defense shoots.

Training and EDC implications

If you want to train for that incredibly low probability event, and carry a high capacity semi-auto with 2 spare magazine to be ready for that extremely low probability event - by all means knock yourself out.

But be realistic and honest enough to admit that you're prepping for some sort of post apocalyptic zombie scenario or maybe a mall ninja terrorist scenario, rather than a real world need.

There are more productive areas to spend your training time and dollars. I'd much rather see shooters shooting often, and working on:

- developing a consistent grip that facilitates automatic alignment of the rear sight with the front sight as you draw and present the weapon;
- developing an ingrained habit of verifying the rear sight alignment in slow fire, and at speed, verifying the placement of the front blade on target and relying on the grip o take care of rear sight alignment (the whole process becomes incredibly fast once the grip is properly developed and makes accurate self defense shooting and decent bullet placement possible);
- drawing and shooting from concealment; and
-developing the footwork needed to draw and shoot while moving laterally, or to the rear, toward cover.

All of the above will make you far more effective in a gun fight than practicing a reload you'll (for all practical purposes) never need.

Besides, rather than wasting training dollars on this in a class, you can practice a reload by doing a tactical reload every time you load your handgun, rather than doing an administrative reload. What do I mean? If you feel you want to carry a speed strip or speed loader, use the speed strip or speed loader, every time you load your revolver. Over weeks, months and years, doing this under time pressure, you'll develop the muscle memory to load pretty effectively under fire if the need ever arises.

You can also do it at the range and find what works best for you and your particular revolver - the FBI reload, the Universal Reload, or the Stress Fire reload. A google search will educate you on the differences, and the pros and cons of each.

If you carry a semi-auto pistol, there's some justification for carrying a spare magazine even if you'll never need the extra rounds. In the event you get a mis-feed, any jam that is not resolved with a quick tap-rack-bang immediate action is probably best addressed by dropping the magazining, clearing the weapon and inserting your spare magazine.

However, the idea that you might get a misfeed is based largely on what happens in a practical pistol match or range session where you're shooting maybe 300 rounds of cast bullet reloads cranked off you progressive press without cleaning your pistol. A failure to feed is a lot more likely in that scenario than it is with your recently cleaned self defense pistols shooting high quality self defense rounds that you've tested for reliability (at least 200 rounds down range without a failure).

If you're expecting a failure to feed with your self defense pistol and ammunition, you're clearly carrying the wrong pistol and/or ammunition.
On the job for over 20 years, I carried an M64 while wearing the sack, never used it, other than to qualify. Carried M40 as backup and M36 later. The MOST rounds I ever fired on the streets was 12 (against 3 armed skells). After my first street incident (fired 2 rounds then) I took to carrying 5 loose rounds with me, today they are in my jeans watch pocket. That way I coud quickly replace the two spent rounds without popping the speedloaders out of my shoulder rig (or strips out of my belt pouch etc). Few encounters (even by Police) REQUIRE reloads, its really just peace of mind. (So I always carry a strip.)
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:13 PM
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BB57 -
A lot of long fancy words for a simple shooter there BB57.

In my 65 years on planet Earth I have had to draw my weapon 4 times to stop a few aggressors. No one got shot, but it stopped them cold from any other action they had in mind. One was a big black bear, an angry black bear, we both lived.

Two time that I was unarmed I had a double barrel shotgun held to me head (Watts CA) and a Uzi pressed to my forehead (in Brussels).

All your stats sound correct but for me I'll stick with my plan... big bullets and lots of follow up.


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Old 07-08-2017, 03:22 PM
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As a retiree carrying a J frame w/a speed strip, plus a couple of speed loaders in the car, I recognize I'm way over what's needed. But during my LEO career I was in a gunfight where I ran out of ammo (six in the gun plus one reload) and that had a profound and lasting impact on me. Since then (1974) there is always at least a couple of reloads close by.
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:38 PM
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There is NO penalty, for having left over ammo, AFTER the fight is over.
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:41 PM
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One J frame and 2 speedloaders....that is all
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:53 PM
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There is NO penalty, for having left over ammo, AFTER the fight is over.
I stay out of trouble by playing what if as I go about my day. I carry extra ammo because I play what if.
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:59 PM
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400 rounds on my person and as many as my pack mule's back can take
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:59 PM
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Doc Roberts reported on an incident near his home while walking his dog that convinced him that the G19 with (IIRC) at least one reload is the new J frame. In the vicinity of where he lives, that's reasonable.

On duty with a 1911, I carried 4 spare mags on my belt and several more in the box of stuff on my seat, along with at least 5 total for my AR. I worked in a rural area, and we could be alone a long time. With the G21, 3 spare mags on the belt, more in the box and with my rifle.

Now, most of the time, a G33 with one spare mag, plus there is one in my console, and a heavy revolver in a bugout bag. (I used to work in a gang infested hell hole and made some "friends".) When traveling, unless I am going to someplace dumb where there is a capacity limit, a G17 (cut to 19 grip size) with at least one spare mag on me and another in car, plus whatever BUG and at least a shotgun with slugs. A lot of my travel takes me through places that are isolated, have spots with iffy cell service, and no real expectation of a useful LE response time if I can get through to them.
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Old 07-08-2017, 07:07 PM
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Good data. You cannot prepare for everything. For most applications, you should have brought a rifle. That being said, just carrying a serviceable firearm filled with modern self defense hollow points that you are proficient with gives you a leg up on most of the population in terms of self defense.

That being said, a 5 shot snub is more than enough unless I am venturing into a place that I feel uncomfortable.

I live rural. In a low crime area.I do not feel the need or desire to carry my hicaps.

I also follow the 4S rule:

I avoid: Stupid people, doing Stupid things, and/or going to Stupid places, at Stupid times.


The 442 or Bulldog work just fine for me.
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This. I live in a very warm climate and don't dress around the gun. I have a pocket carried PD 340 with 5 x 357.. I might have a speed strip on me, with at least two speed loaders in the car.

I'm not a cop anymore, so I just stay away from the areas where I feel like I need a hi-cap on me.
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As a retiree carrying a J frame w/a speed strip, plus a couple of speed loaders in the car, I recognize I'm way over what's needed. But during my LEO career I was in a gunfight where I ran out of ammo (six in the gun plus one reload) and that had a profound and lasting impact on me. Since then (1974) there is always at least a couple of reloads close by.
These are great posts that illustrate a couple of related concepts.

First, LEOs often have the need to go into dark and scary places looking for bad guys. It's part of the job, but even then a smart LEP is going to call for back up. After all, another LEO backing you up is way better than a reload.

As an aside, there is also data that clearly shows the average number of rounds fired per officer in an officer involved shoot increases the more officers are on scene from 2 point something for a single officer to 3 point something for two officers to 4 point something for 3 officers. (Excuse the point somethings - I don't feel like digging up that data at the moment). Some folks feel that's due to a group effect where officers shoot more because other officers are shooting. That might account for some of the effect, but the practical guy in me says that more officers are on scene in the first place because there is an elevated level of threat in the first place, with greater potential for multiple armed suspects. Thus more rounds fired per officer makes sense.

The point here is that if you are an armed citizens with a reasonable degree of common sense, you'll be smart enough to avoid going into places where you might need to use a weapon in self defense.

In addition, if you have and use a reasonable degree of situational awareness you'll be smart enough to recognize those places before you get in to a situation you shouldn't be in.

Second, while it's separate from what you carry on your person, and not directly related to what the OP asked, I'm a big proponent of carrying plenty of ammunition in my vehicle. That's partly because I was the second on scene where a pot (pot belly livestock trailer) had over turned, with the result that there were about 60 yearling heifers with broken legs, serious injuries etc, and very few of them were killed outright in the accident. The state trooper on scene didn't have enough ammunition to humanely dispatch them all of the severely injured animals. This was back in the day when the revolver was still king, however revolver or pistol, I've carried two 50 round boxes of ammunition in my vehicle ever since.

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Old 07-08-2017, 07:30 PM
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There is NO penalty, for having left over ammo, AFTER the fight is over.
No, and carrying those two full .50cal ammo cans will build nice muscles. ;-)
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Old 07-08-2017, 07:34 PM
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BB57 -
A lot of long fancy words for a simple shooter there BB57.

In my 65 years on planet Earth I have had to draw my weapon 4 times to stop a few aggressors. No one got shot, but it stopped them cold from any other action they had in mind. One was a big black bear, an angry black bear, we both lived.

Two time that I was unarmed I had a double barrel shotgun held to me head (Watts CA) and a Uzi pressed to my forehead (in Brussels).

All your stats sound correct but for me I'll stick with my plan... big bullets and lots of follow up.
I've relied on a drawn handgun on two occasions to stop an assailant, and neither time involved actually firing it. However, both were work related and not situations where an armed citizen with any sense would or should be.

There's a big difference between the situations LEOs are in and the situations armed citizens should be in, and the EDC requirements vary accordingly.

Several years ago I almost drew a weapon in an armed citizen capacity. I'd just gotten $200 from an ATM and was in a hurry to get to the AT&T store before it closed to replace my phone. It was dark (a few minutes before 9pm). I took a wrong turn, immediately recognized this was the wrong street and started turning to reverse course. At that point I saw a latino in a hoody right behind me closing fast with one hand coming out of his pocket and the other arm extending toward me. As I turned and saw him, my left hand instinctively went up to block an assault and create some more time/space to draw, while my right hand went to my hip to lift my jacket and draw. He immediately reversed direction, turned the corner I'd just made and beat a rapid retreat.

I won't swear he was about to mug me, and I don't know for sure what was going to be in his hand as it came out of that pocket, but I was clearly assessing the possibilities. He clearly recognized I was fixing to shoot him.

The fact that I'd just gotten cash at an ATM and was too distracted to check to see if I'd been followed figured heavily in my thinking. It also struck me as a total SA failure on my part. I could have avoided the whole situation with a little more care and observation after getting the cash. Generally speaking if the potential victim makes eye contact with potential assailant at a distance, and telegraphs an awareness of the situation, the assailant will just look for an easier target.

It's also an example where a gun was "used" in self defense and probably prevented a crime, but where it was never reported to the police, since no crime was ultimately completed.

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Old 07-08-2017, 08:25 PM
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I don't carry a reload: if I can't solve a sd problem with what's in the gun, more ammo isn't going to help. I don't entertain zombie fantasies.
It's not about having more ammunition. It's about having a backup magazine.
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:44 PM
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You can fill a pocket full of speedloaders and nobody will notice. A J-Frame just doesn't seem like the ideal combat weapon if you're going to do that. There is the convenience factor, but that's about it. I have great ability with the J-Frame, but I really have to be flawless in accuracy and I really have to nail those reloads to stay up there with a subcompact semi auto.

All that said, M&P 360 with a bobbed hammer, XS sight, Crimson Trace LG-105 low profile laser grips in a Blade Tech Looper pocket holster. 2 or more Safariland Comp 1 speedloaders in the left pocket. The gun is worn smooth in a lot of places and there's finish missing if that tells you anything. It plays a helluva lot of second fiddle.
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Old 07-09-2017, 10:51 PM
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... I don't carry a reload: if I can't solve a sd problem with what's in the gun, more ammo isn't going to help. I don't entertain zombie fantasies.

Unless you plan on missing a lot, I can't imagine a real life sd situation that would call for more ammo than what's in the gun.
In today's environment evil doers often travel in packs, "zombie fantasies" can become all too real.

BB57 makes some great points about the statistical probabilities of needing more than five rounds being very low, but I wouldn't want to be the outlier and become a statistic myself.

For one thing doing a revolver reload of any kind seems like a good way to get shot in an extended gunfight. My reload of choice in of the NY type, drop my primary weapon and draw my back-up.

My J frames are easy to carry and conceal, but hard to shoot well, especially in sustained fire. And the 5 shot capability, while statistically sufficient for 99% of the time there is that 1% to consider.

I train to use the "Mozambique Drill" which is two to center mass, and one to the head. With a 5 shot capacity that leaves me one short if there are two attackers. I have addressed that with moving to a six shooter:



The 547 shoots 9mm's so my spare clip for my backup gun could be used for a reload, but speed clips are so easy to carry that I'll toss at least one in my weak side front pocket.

My back-up gun is usually my 3914DAO for the same revolver like operation. Point and pull, the same every time. A spare magazine or even two go in my back pocket:



Going heavy for when I'm going into "Injun Territory" would be replacing the 3914 with a 17+1 915 for more firepower.



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Old 07-10-2017, 10:14 AM
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This is what I carry now. But after reading this thread I make a few changes. This is the best forum with the best people bar none!!!! Here is a pic and thanks to all.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:40 AM
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Usually 12; snub K frame. 6 in the gun and a reload.
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:33 AM
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Usually 24: 6 in the gun, plus two speedloaders and a speed strip.
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Old 07-10-2017, 06:21 PM
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I carry a 19 snub and 1 speed strip and on occasional quick out and backs to the local stop-n-rob I carry my 640 nd and a speed strip. I know others have said you do not need more than what is in the gun already, according to statistics, but.... when the gun fight is over, I am not going to stand there with an empty gun waiting for the Cops to arrive.

Last edited by DevilDog72; 07-10-2017 at 06:22 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-10-2017, 06:55 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
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Digiroc...just so you know...we all secretly hate you for flaunting your 547 and enjoying it so much. �� Just kidding...or are we?
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:51 PM
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I carry a LCR 357 with one speed strip in my pocket. If I feel the need for more I will carry my SW 642 pro in a ankle holster and bring my wife along with me she carries a SW 38 body guard with one speed strip.
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:18 PM
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Regardless of the firearm I choose to carry I typically carry two reloads, speedstrips for revolvers or magazines for the semis.
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Old 07-11-2017, 02:30 PM
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Digiroc...just so you know...we all secretly hate you for flaunting your 547 and enjoying it so much. �� Just kidding...or are we?
Well I have posted quite a few photos of it and I am super pleased with it. Some are shocked that for me it's a shooter and a carry gun but that's why I bought it.

digiroc
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Old 07-11-2017, 05:00 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
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Well I have posted quite a few photos of it and I am super pleased with it. Some are shocked that for me it's a shooter and a carry gun but that's why I bought it.

digiroc
I think it's cool as can be. Good for you! Thanks for showing it off. Too bad they don't rerelease it.
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Old 07-11-2017, 05:28 PM
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I usually carry my 640 and two speedstrips on me. The 640 has 5 .357 Speer Short Barrel GD's in it and the speedstrips carry the same bullet in the .38 special variety. That's so if I need my back up gun, another j frame,(637), they will work in either gun. Also, two speedloaders in my off body bag.

I recognize the fact that hopefully I'll never need them, but they make me feel better never the less!
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Old 07-11-2017, 10:06 PM
Frankly45 Frankly45 is offline
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When carrying my 642, I used to carry 1 or 2 speedloaders. Now my reload is a Ruger 380 LCP. (Easier to carry and faster than speedloaders). I prefer the 642 as primary.7
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:48 PM
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I'm retired so when traveling 10+1 with 2 - 15 round spare magazines one on me and spare in Jeep console ..

Just around town 10+1 with 10 round spare mag on body off side ..
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:20 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
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Originally Posted by Bill In Texas View Post
I usually carry my 640 and two speedstrips on me. The 640 has 5 .357 Speer Short Barrel GD's in it and the speedstrips carry the same bullet in the .38 special variety. That's so if I need my back up gun, another j frame,(637), they will work in either gun. Also, two speedloaders in my off body bag.

I recognize the fact that hopefully I'll never need them, but they make me feel better never the less!
Smart. Fella here has it figured out. The .38's reload more easily and the crossover is very smart. I wish I had been smart enough to buy two .357's.
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:48 PM
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Just what's in the gun. I never carry a reload.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:50 AM
mgriffin mgriffin is offline
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My 442 plus 5rounds on speed strip in a Mag drop pouch on my belt. If I'm on a road trip then its my LC9S Pro with 9 round mag+ the chambered round (10) and a spare 9 round mag.
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