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  #51  
Old 07-13-2017, 10:08 PM
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If I were in law enforcement I would certainly practice 75' shots.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:10 PM
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If I were in law enforcement I would certainly practice long range shots. Being a civilian I think I can avoid the need.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:50 AM
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Good thing he was using .40 SW. If he had a 9mm the round would have hit the ground way before it reached out that far.


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Old 07-14-2017, 06:55 AM
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Good thing he was using .40 SW. If he had a 9mm the round would have hit the ground way before it reached out that far.


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It was a 45! I have no direct proof of it but on another form a NC patrolman said that agency uses Glock21sf with 230gr Ranger T ammo. Standard issue is 40s&w Ranger T. Swat use 45ACP Ranger T. This guy was a member of Swat

I have no direct proof but I have no reason to not trust the poster.

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Old 07-14-2017, 09:55 AM
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Good thing he was using .40 SW. If he had a 9mm the round would have hit the ground way before it reached out that far.


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We're all really glad you made this post. It was very logical and well thought out. Please send me all of your 9mm ammunition for testing as well as all of your .40 ammunition. There might be something wrong with it and I'd like to help you get to the bottom of the problem.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:47 AM
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Good thing he was using .40 SW. If he had a 9mm the round would have hit the ground way before it reached out that far.


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It was a 45. 10mm light would have blown up in his hand.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:54 AM
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Too bad the cop had to dump the guy - but - - - -

Another example of people doing stupid stuff that escalates a bad situation.

People post videos of beaten by a cop - what provoked the beating?

People got shot for waving a gun at a cop - go figure. Or - - could this have been a suicide by cop?
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:19 AM
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It was a 45!
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It was a 45.
No, it was not a .45. No, it was not a Glock, either.

Uniformed officers with the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department carry the S&W M&P40.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:27 AM
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No, it was not a .45. No, it was not a Glock, either.

Uniformed officers with the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department carry the S&W M&P40.
That's a Glock

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  #60  
Old 07-14-2017, 12:09 PM
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Default With a pocket...

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Originally Posted by InsideWaist View Post
Hickok45 could've taken him out as well, from that distance...and more.

I don't agree with the article that it was a "gun fight". One shot does not a gun fight make.
With a pocket pistol. He had mostly hits on his 80 yard gong with several pocket pistols.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:21 PM
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No, it was not a .45. No, it was not a Glock, either.

Uniformed officers with the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department carry the S&W M&P40.
100% a Glock..... but carry on
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:26 PM
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Default A GUY IN THE CHECKOUT LINE AT WALYWORLD

Said he had a cousins son in law from Alaska that said it was an 88 magnum. IT MUST BE TRUE, the media backed his story.

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  #63  
Old 07-14-2017, 12:51 PM
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No! It was an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator using rounds laced with Pre-Famulated Amulite and an auto indexing reciprocative autonium targeting device.

Man, you guys will argue about anything. For crying out loud. He used a handgun in a stressful situation and made a longer than average shot to potentially save his partner.

In the context of the OP, this situation does indeed show the value of practicing longer shots. I'll bet even this officer would have used his rifle had the shot been much longer.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bigggbbruce View Post
In the private sector it could be considered murder because you could flee instead of engaging.

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Why? Is 25 yards too far for a knife-wielding attacker to run me down and cut my head off? Is it too far for an unlucky hit from a murderous gunman?
I believe he was referring to this particular context. The context of the officer being protected under cover behind his vehicle. IMHO, a run-of-the-mill CCW permit holder would be in deep doo-doo had he been the one behind that vehicle and shot the guy.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM
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Default Then there's this...

Couple of images of just before and right at the shot. The guy does not appear to be in a shooting or pointing stance what so ever? Zoom it in he appears to be standing there with no intention or target.



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Old 07-14-2017, 02:30 PM
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I believe he was referring to this particular context. The context of the officer being protected under cover behind his vehicle. IMHO, a run-of-the-mill CCW permit holder would be in deep doo-doo had he been the one behind that vehicle and shot the guy.
No, I don't think so in this case.

Remember, the reason he took the shot was to protect his partner. A civilian in the same situation would still be saving another from potential death. That's legal in all 50 states.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:32 PM
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Couple of images of just before and right at the shot. The guy does not appear to be in a shooting or pointing stance what so ever? Zoom it in he appears to be standing there with no intention or target.



I don't think many people actually get into stances. They just point and shoot

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Old 07-14-2017, 02:33 PM
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Couple of images of just before and right at the shot. The guy does not appear to be in a shooting or pointing stance what so ever? Zoom it in he appears to be standing there with no intention or target.
Nice pics, but they don't tell the whole story.

I can't tell from those pics if he had a gun or not. Neither can I tell if he was aiming it. Neither did I see the gun at any time in the video. However, and this is a big one, the court ruled that he did have a rifle and was potentially shooting at the other officer.

This video is just one piece of evidence. There's a lot we can't see here.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:40 PM
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Default EXTRA POINTS,

Hey you stole my move. Using the vehicle to support/steady his left arm, smart boy. Bet he learned that hunting.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:48 PM
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Neither did I see the gun at any time in the video.
OK, I went back and went frame by frame through the video.

Immediately prior to the policeman shooting, the guy is clearly in a shooting stance. You can see his right elbow at a normal angel as if shooting.

After the shot, you can see the guy spin around and you can see the rifle fall away. A little bit later, as the policeman is going toward the house, you can see the rifle laying on the grass. The guy has rolled onto the driveway at that point.

I agree with the court's opinion; good shoot.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bigggbbruce View Post
In the private sector it could be considered murder because you could flee instead of engaging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Why? Is 25 yards too far for a knife-wielding attacker to run me down and cut my head off? Is it too far for an unlucky hit from a murderous gunman?

I believe he was referring to this particular context. The context of the officer being protected under cover behind his vehicle. IMHO, a run-of-the-mill CCW permit holder would be in deep doo-doo had he been the one behind that vehicle and shot the guy.

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No, I don't think so in this case.
That's what's great about these public forums and all of us being able to "armchair quarterback" something that we watch on video. We all have our opinions and everyone's opinions are neither incorrect or correct.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:15 PM
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Thankfully AZPOST requires a 25 yd. shoot for the qualification. It's 25, 15, 7 & 3 yds. during the qual. My agency however does training with handguns at 50 yds yearly. That is a good thing because it teaches officers that they CAN hit the target at 1/2 of a football field with a pistol.

One year we shot the AZPOST qual from 50 yds. It was 50, 40, 30'ish & 25. To the shock of many they actually "qualified" with a score of 220 or better despite the long distances.

I routinely shoot from 25 yds. with my snubbies and full size autos just because I can. Everything under that becomes quite easy.

Likewise the rifle program qual starts at 100 yds. But, we do 200+ yard training too. God bless our range staff!
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  #73  
Old 07-14-2017, 03:17 PM
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No, I don't think so in this case.

Remember, the reason he took the shot was to protect his partner. A civilian in the same situation would still be saving another from potential death. That's legal in all 50 states.
Agreed. You have to articulate the reason you fired just as we Police Officers do. Now, depending on jurisdiction of course you may or may not have to retreat. In AZ there is no such stupidity in the self defense laws.

In this case there's a perp with a rifle acting like he intends to kill people, not just police. Any citizen would be justified in dropping him for his actions. Whether or not the weapon is operable is irrelevant! We (you all) have NO WAY of knowing that. (See airsoft guns getting people killed). They to look way too real.

Remember the incident in Early TX where the Sgt. was pinned down by a gunman and the citizen used his .357 to 'dissuade' the suspect with four rounds into him. The suspect fell from cover & the Sgt. was able to end the shootout. Goodguys 1, badguy 0!

That man was praised for his actions that day. Likewise, a citizen here in AZ shot at three perp's who gunned down Ofc. Mark Atikinson of the Phoenix PD. Even though Ofc. Atkinson died of his wounds, the citizen slowed the suspects enough that they were apprehended, one wounded severely. The man was lauded as a hero & the Phx. PD Union bought him a new Glock 31 since the PD was keeping his for an undetermined amount of time.

Now, one could argue that they "were fleeing" and therefore not a 'threat'. Well I beg to differ, if they'll blatantly gun down a uniformed Phoenix PD Ofc. in downtown during broad daylight, then the really don't give a s___ about anyone else do they?

Likewise for this incident no one knows what the deal was with the decedent, let alone the police. He comes out with a rifle and level's it at anyone without damn good justification then he's bought at paid for. It may sound heartless but I don't get paid to get shot and I didn't survive 21 yrs. by being careless. The decedent made the decision to act in this manner and he paid the price.

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Old 07-14-2017, 03:50 PM
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Couple of images of just before and right at the shot. The guy does not appear to be in a shooting or pointing stance what so ever? Zoom it in he appears to be standing there with no intention or target.



UHHH, keep in mind that it takes less than a second to raise and fire ANY FIREARM. also, they can be fired from the waist. We simply DO NOT have time to negotiate with someone like this. Its daylight, summer = kids out, postman out, the dude's wife or whoever is running for her life. I'd say that the decision to shoot was a no brainer. It was heading south very quickly. If he had a machete and was acting a fool and everyone is able to make distance & get to cover then we can try and diffuse. But, dude comes out with a long gun or any gun then the situation is totally different. Also, cars are not really cover! They're just a better form of concealment.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:53 PM
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That's a Glock

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Looks like a Glock 21 to me. The thickness of the slide is around the back plate is significant. I carry a Glock 35 and it's way thinner than that just like all the 9/40/357's are.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:07 PM
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Most of the people talking about how this shot is long or we shouldn't be practicing this distance or greater cannot make those shots on a range under ideal conditions with a target pistol much less their carry gun.
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:12 PM
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Also, cars are not really cover!
If used properly, they can be. (e.g. engine compartment, wheels/tires)
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:56 PM
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It was a 45!
Prove it. And like you can tell the pistol is a .45 by looking at the back of it? Of course you can. Wish I could do that. Shoot, I can't even tell a .45 from a 9mm 1911 just by looking at it from the rear.

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It was a 45! I have no direct proof of it but on another form a NC patrolman said that agency uses Glock21sf with 230gr Ranger T ammo. Standard issue is 40s&w Ranger T. Swat use 45ACP Ranger T. This guy was a member of Swat
You have no direct proof of it, but you'll go ahead and say it just to be talking, won't you? And which "agency"? In which city? Keep in mind, this happened in Charlotte, North Carolina?

SWAT? We aren't talking about SWAT here and SWAT had absolutely nothing to do with the shooting being discussed here. It was strictly the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department. Let me mention here, also, that I live in Charlotte, and was actually only less than three blocks away from the scene when this shooting took place.

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That's a Glock
Again...prove it.

And let me say this before you try coming up with some bogus proof or another.

I don't know what you think you see in that video, but it isn't a Glock of any caliber.

But I wanted to make sure of my facts, just in case I was mistaken.

I spoke with two Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department officers. Did I mention I live in Charlotte? Where this shooting took place? I'm confident they know what brand and caliber pistol they carry while on duty. I also saw their pistols with my own two eyes...or four eyes, whichever way you want to look at it. They weren't Glocks. I do know a Glock when I see one.

Then I spoke with a dealer here who supplies a lot of equipment to the CMPD, and asked him directly, "What sidearm is issued to CMPD officers?"

Wanna guess what they said? I'll tell you.

The sidearm issued to the CMPD is the Smith & Wesson M&P40, just like I said in a previous post.

Pay close attention to this paragraph:

Furthermore, CMPD officers do not have the option of providing a different gun for themselves to use while on duty. Nor can they modify their duty pistol without approval.

Now, whether some CMPD officers might modify their pistols, I can't say. But they aren't going to buck the CMPD bureaucracy and risk losing their job by shooting someone with an unauthorized pistol.

Keep in mind (again), this happened in Charlotte, North Carolina. Not some other city that your anonymous "NC Patrolman" might be from or work in.

Matter of fact, though, Asheville police do carry the Sig P220 in .45acp. Other county sheriff's departments and police departments carry .45s. But not here in Charlotte. Not on duty, and these officers were on duty.

Not that it really matters what the guy was killed with. He's dead, period. It's still a disputed shooting under an ongoing investigation.

Now, if you want to keep nitpicking over what brand/caliber was used to kill the guy, be my guest. Do it without me. And maybe stick to the facts? Or as another member says, carry on.

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100% a Glock..... but carry on
You better look again. Tell us which model Glock comes with a rear sight like that. I have four Glocks. None of them have a sight like that. Even the G41 Gen 4's rear sight doesn't look like that.

Carry on, yourself. I'm tired of talking about it.






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Old 07-14-2017, 06:00 PM
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Prove it. And like you can tell the pistol is a .45 by looking at the back of it? Of course you can. Wish I could do that. Shoot, I can't even tell a .45 from a 9mm 1911 just by looking at it from the rear.



You have no direct proof of it, but you'll go ahead and say it just to be talking, won't you? And which "agency"? In which city? Keep in mind, this happened in Charlotte, North Carolina?

SWAT? We aren't talking about SWAT here and SWAT had absolutely nothing to do with the shooting being discussed here. It was strictly the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department. Let me mention here, also, that I live in Charlotte, and was actually only less than three blocks away from the scene when this shooting took place.



Again...prove it.

And let me say this before you try coming up with some bogus proof or another.

I don't know what you think you see in that video, but it isn't a Glock of any caliber.

But I wanted to make sure of my facts, just in case I was mistaken.

I spoke with two Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department officers. Did I mention I live in Charlotte? Where this shooting took place? I'm confident they know what brand and caliber pistol they carry while on duty. I also saw their pistols with my own two eyes...or four eyes, whichever way you want to look at it. They weren't Glocks. I do know a Glock when I see one.

Then I spoke with a dealer here who supplies a lot of equipment to the CMPD, and asked him directly, "What sidearm is issued to CMPD officers?"

Wanna guess what they said? I'll tell you.

The sidearm issued to the CMPD is the Smith & Wesson M&P40, just like I said in a previous post.

Pay close attention to this paragraph:

Furthermore, CMPD officers do not have the option of providing a different gun for themselves to use while on duty. Nor can they modify their duty pistol without approval.

Now, whether some CMPD officers might modify their pistols, I can't say. But they aren't going to buck the CMPD bureaucracy and risk losing their job by shooting someone with an unauthorized pistol.

Keep in mind (again), this happened in Charlotte, North Carolina. Not some other city that your anonymous "NC Patrolman" might be from or work in.

Matter of fact, though, Asheville police do carry the Sig P220 in .45acp. Other county sheriff's departments and police departments carry .45s. But not here in Charlotte. Not on duty, and these officers were on duty.

Not that it really matters what the guy was killed with. He's dead, period. It's still a disputed shooting under an ongoing investigation.

Now, if you want to keep nitpicking over what brand/caliber was used to kill the guy, be my guest. Do it without me. And maybe stick to the facts? Or as another member says, carry on.



You better look again. Tell us which model Glock comes with a rear sight like that. I have four Glocks. None of them have a sight like that. Even the G41 Gen 4's rear sight doesn't look like that.

Carry on, yourself. I'm tired of talking about it.








Feel better?

Still say it's a Glock and I only mentioned caliber once



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

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Old 07-14-2017, 07:01 PM
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Arik was 100% correct.

He was a SWAT officer and the CMPD SWAT has Glock 45s. The rest of the Dept has M&P40s. But continue arguing. It's a semantic but true.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:44 PM
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The odds of having to make a 25 yard shot in a civilian scenario are absolutely astronomical. Even in a proactive/intervention context.

I imagine I could still make decent hits from that range if forced to, but I personally don't see the need to allocate any substantial amount of practice time to it. YMMV
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:39 PM
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It's a Glock with TruGlo TFO sights. Be nice to each other or be quiet.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:45 AM
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Well, I tried to hint at how stupid this had become. Arguing over the type of gun is just childish. But since you seem bent on showing your behind...
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Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
Prove it.
OK, I just deleted a huge amount of typing. You have proven it in your own post. Go back and look critically at your still from the video and the M&P. Look at the top corners of the slide. Look at the side of the slide. Regardless of what you think, you can clearly see the gun from the vid is NOT an M&P.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:50 AM
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It's a Glock with TruGlo TFO sights.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:24 AM
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forrestinmathews is correct though.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:11 PM
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Deadly Force Situation===Means, Opportunity and Life in Danger. All three elements were satisfied at the time of the shooting. Good shoot all day long.

The Police are not going to stand around and bargain under those circumstances. You confront the Police with a gun and you better be ready to deal with the consequences.

Some of these posts are beyond ridiculous.
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Old 07-15-2017, 02:06 PM
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Obviously quite a few. Fly's open, pee everywhere.
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
Sorry to OP for getting off topic.

What was the distance, standing or using support. Sorry but that is not good enough for me, I shoot for the head, and the shot has to be centered, exact. If I aim for the eye, I expect to take out the eye.

In your head shot only one hit would have been an instant stopper. That is a good pattern for a torso shot though.
Hitting someone in the eye from 75ft while high on adrenaline. You are the best comedian I have met today
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:25 PM
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Hitting someone in the eye from 75ft while high on adrenaline. You are the best comedian I have met today
I never said 25 yards, but from a rest with certain guns it is more than possible. At 10 yards with a very accurate gun it is extremely possible. But at 75 feet a shot to the center of the noggin with a 1911 is very possible, even out to 50 yards. I expect a high degree of accuracy from my guns, I expect them to be mechanically more accurate than I am. When I still owned my 67 in the 80's it would easily shoot once inch groups from a rest at 25 yards.

Because Glock owners are willing to accept less, and then brag about it, does not make Glocks perfect. They are capable of 25 yard shots to the center mass, and most police officers should also be capable.

Anything less is a joke.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:00 PM
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I've been debating whether or not to offer my opinion in this thread, as these types of threads can get quite contentious. But I'll go ahead and share my layman's thoughts.

Context is everything. Just because a shooting involves a great distance, whether civilian or LE, doesn't automatically mean it's not justified. The "reasonable person" test would apply. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall an incident where a Texas DPS Trooper was being attacked on the side of a highway and a civilian pulled over, took out his rifle, and shot the attacker from long distance, I want to say 70-something yards.

To say that a successful 25-yard hit, that stops the threat, under real life-and-death stress conditions, is difficult would be a gross understatement. I've shot a police qualification course with my Beretta 92FS, which included shots taken at 25 yards. I passed (all hits inside the 8-ring of a B27 target). The only stress I experienced was not wanting to suck in front of my classmates as well as the imposed time limits. My target was neither moving nor a threat to others. I honestly don't know if I could've made the same shot this officer did.

Long distance shots are extremely rare, but they do happen. Tom Givens, who has collected data from 60+ of his students who were involved in self defense shootings, has mentioned that one of those involved a shot taken at 22 yards, IIRC. Several years ago I was studying jujutsu at a dojo where another student, a police officer I had actually never met (I believe he left before I started studying there), was involved in an off-duty shooting where he shot at 21 yards (for those who care, it was a 1911). I can't remember the details, but I know at least one gun magazine had an article about it.

Having said that, I prioritize my efforts on what I'm most likely to face, which is close range, i.e. 3-10 feet, typically. But that doesn't mean I completely ignore long(er) distance shooting. I practice longer shots from time to time, partly because it really forces me to focus on marksmanship fundamentals and partly because it's good to know one's limitations. With my EDC, a 642, I know that 15 yards is about my maximum effective range for center-of-mass hits. How real-life stress would affect that, I don't know.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
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Because Glock owners are willing to accept less,...
I don't think Glocks are any less accurate.

Is a custom Les Baer 1911 better? Sure, but they also cost 6x more. The Glock is every bit as accurate as an M&P or XD or whatever reasonably priced and mass produced gun you want to talk about.

I have used a Glock to score head shots (within a 3"x5" box), starting from concealment, at 5 and 7 yards, in under 1.9 and 2.3 seconds respectively. I've done the same with a revolver shooting double action.

I don't care for Glocks, but that's no reason to say they're not accurate.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:31 PM
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I expect a high degree of accuracy from my guns, I expect them to be mechanically more accurate than I am.
If holding a gun without support (wall, tree, bi-pod, etc), then they are only as accurate as the holder.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
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If holding a gun without support (wall, tree, bi-pod, etc), then they are only as accurate as the holder.
A firearm should ALWAYS be more accurate than the holder, if they are not they are unacceptable.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:03 PM
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A firearm should ALWAYS be more accurate than the holder, if they are not they are unacceptable.
Separate items--yes, I agree. But firearm and shooter together as one? They are as good together as their weakest link.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:03 PM
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Seems a little sad to me that this thread so quickly lost sight of the heroic actions of Officer Walsh.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:18 PM
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Seems a little sad to me that this thread so quickly lost sight of the heroic actions of Officer Walsh.
Walsh has been praised quite a bit throughout this thread. Whether right or wrong, the shot was spot-on. I don't know if we can high-five Walsh any more than we already have; therefore, we move on to other (semi-)related topics, such as what gun he used.

It's a natural evolution of any internet forum thread.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:19 PM
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Seems a little sad to me that this thread so quickly lost sight of the heroic actions of Officer Walsh.
This I agree, I apoligize for my part in taking it off course. I realized when the first Glock post was posted I should have ignored it.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:27 PM
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Default What gun is used in this video?

In another thread the conversation started to get off topic. So, I decided to ask the question here. Take a look at this video:
VIDEO: Cop Uses Pistol to Save Partner, End A Gunfight With A Single 75 Foot Shot - Blue Lives Matter

If you can, tell us what gun the officer used to take down the perpetrator.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:01 PM
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Looks like a Glock to me. Probably G22.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:10 PM
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Here's a screen grab from 1:33. The slide serrations and flat mag base plate look Glock'ish.

ETA - I saw in the other thread a lot of debate about which pistol, but not sure what difference it makes if it was a Glock or an S&W. Both are capable at that distance. Circumstances, tactics, and outcome are still the same regardless of pistol brand.
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