Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:02 AM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Washifornia
Posts: 7,765
Likes: 6,998
Liked 9,666 Times in 3,289 Posts
Default Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P

This purpose of this thread isn't about recoil but more so bullet performance. Let's assume you can the control the recoil of the 357 in a snubby. Would you carry that load? Or would you carry 38 +P?

I've heard many times that with the loss in velocity with 357 that you might as well carry 38 +P. But I simply refuse to believe that the 38 +P would perform better than the 357 even with loss in velocity. Maybe I'm wrong.

I also understand that much of this depends on the load and bullet design you choose. Depending on bullet design, faster isn't always better.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #2  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:08 AM
4011's Avatar
4011 4011 is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 864
Liked 1,773 Times in 760 Posts
Default

More is not always better. I stepped down to 38 standard velocity. Better overal control of the J frame. I rather hit the target than scare it.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:11 AM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Washifornia
Posts: 7,765
Likes: 6,998
Liked 9,666 Times in 3,289 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4011 View Post
More is not always better. I stepped down to 38 standard velocity. Better overal control of the J frame. I rather hit the target than scare it.
I understand your point. But I'm not concerned about scaring anyone and for the purpose of this discussion bullet placement is a given. What's the real reason you chose standard?
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach

Last edited by Kanewpadle; 07-23-2017 at 10:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:15 AM
Sol-Invictus's Avatar
Sol-Invictus Sol-Invictus is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 109
Likes: 56
Liked 115 Times in 50 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
This purpose of this thread isn't about recoil but more so bullet performance. Let's assume you can the control the recoil of the 357 in a snubby. Would you carry that load? Or would you carry 38 +P?

I've heard many times that with the loss in velocity with 357 that you might as well carry 38 +P. But I simply refuse to believe that the 38 +P would perform better than the 357 even with loss in velocity. Maybe I'm wrong.

I also understand that much of this depends on the load and bullet design you choose. Depending on bullet design, faster isn't always better.
Depends on the individual gun. I usually carry 110 grain 357 in my snubs builts for it. I have a little mechanical steel plate target. 357 whips the plates up and around. 38+P barely moves them. Anyone who chooses +P due to no claimed energy difference in regular loadings versus 357 does not have real world experience.

If the choice is because of tolerable recoil issues, accuracy, or significant loss of follow up shooting for the individual then regular 38 or +P is a sensible choice.

Shoot and decide what works best for you.

Sent from my SM-T520 using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:15 AM
mrchuck's Avatar
mrchuck mrchuck is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Gun Barrel City, TEXAS
Posts: 414
Likes: 1,703
Liked 484 Times in 213 Posts
Default

I carry a "snub" Smith&Wesson model 60 .357 five shot.

The .357 caliber is LOUD, kicks, and does exactly what it was designed to do. That is to kill,,,,not wound.
At the range target practicing with .357 rounds is not fun.
But when adrenaline kicks in instantly checking out a strange noise or a hold-up in your presence, the recoil is not a factor anymore.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:24 AM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 721
Liked 2,025 Times in 689 Posts
Default

Based upon the data and findings provided by Dr. Gary Roberts, I have settled on Winchester Ranger (Bonded) RA38B...130gr +P

Impressive results for both penetration and expansion out of short barreled revolvers.
__________________
3" 686+, 642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:33 AM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 136
Likes: 35
Liked 173 Times in 63 Posts
Default

.38 special vs .357 magnum in snubnose revolvers. Haven't watched it for a bit, but from a ballistic standpoint, IIRC, .357 is significantly better.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:53 AM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 826
Likes: 264
Liked 528 Times in 265 Posts
Default

In the snubnosed revolver it is always better ballistically to fire .357 rounds(more power). It is always better practically to reload with .38's(shorter and better clearnace of speedloaders).
Win 296 or H110 under a 125 grain Hornady XTP will take care of most problems that are walking and talking in short order.
__________________
This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 07-23-2017, 11:01 AM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 721
Liked 2,025 Times in 689 Posts
Default

You may also find the info provided by Lucky Gunner on this page of interest for comparison purposes.

It is specifically tailored to .38 and .357 ammo though the gel utilized is not the same as that used in the FBI protocol nor Dr. Roberts' testing.

That said, the penetration, expansion and images provided are interesting.
__________________
3" 686+, 642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 07-23-2017, 11:35 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 21,730
Likes: 25,613
Liked 17,660 Times in 8,755 Posts
Default Ideally what I do.....

I shoot low end .357s that are stronger than any .38+P, but nowhere near the blast and recoil. People talk about the .38/40 and the 'FBI load' but with a .357 you can match these or make them a little stronger. They are useful, especially in a house. If I have a gun with a .38 +P in it, I don't feel under armed. If I ever have to pull a trigger, I'm not going to stop at one shot.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 07-23-2017 at 11:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 07-23-2017, 11:39 AM
Walkingwolf's Avatar
Walkingwolf Walkingwolf is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 608
Likes: 451
Liked 487 Times in 275 Posts
Default

Ask somebody that has been shot with one for an honest answer.

Sorry that was snippy, but consider what a criminal thinks when s/he encounters a armed citizen. I don't think they care, and are scared at that moment. At least that is what convicts have said in studies, they fear the armed citizen.

Last edited by Walkingwolf; 07-23-2017 at 11:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-23-2017, 11:39 AM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 721
Liked 2,025 Times in 689 Posts
Default

Dr. Roberts on .38 and .357 from a 2" (specifically J frame):

Quote:
Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers...

...There is no reason to go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2” barrels...

... As always, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend your time and money on developing a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training.
__________________
3" 686+, 642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 07-23-2017, 11:42 AM
eb07 eb07 is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 1,316
Liked 2,151 Times in 638 Posts
Default

I went through this exact question in my head so I went out and did some chrono testing on my own firearms:

In a nutshel, from my snubs:

The difference between the low end 38+p and the 357 magnum:
473 fps 315 ft lbs energy

The difference between the high end 38+p and the 357 magnum:
282 fps 204 ft lbs of energy

The follow up shots are easier and slightly faster with the 38+P but just as accurate

Last edited by eb07; 07-23-2017 at 12:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:06 PM
Rpg Rpg is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Denver area
Posts: 2,682
Likes: 5,046
Liked 3,601 Times in 1,424 Posts
Default

My experience shooting critters with a handgun has convinced me that hard cast swc projectiles perform much better than projectiles designed to expand.

Folks enjoy reading ballistic tables and looking at ballistic gel tests. Unfortunately, folks imagine that these things are determinative of effectiveness. My experience suggests that reasoning is hyperbolic.

Muzzle energy overstates effectiveness because it overemphasizes velocity in a handgun. Momentum is a much better predictor of effectiveness in flesh and bone than muzzel energy.

Velocity is important only in that you need enough to obtain adequate penetration. Sacrificing bullet weight to obtain higher velocity is a fool's errand in my opinion.

I'm very skeptical about expanding bullets in handguns, particularly short barreled handguns.

I see no benefit in trying to squeeze more velocity from a short barreled handgun with 357 as opposed to 38 special.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:16 PM
AZretired's Avatar
AZretired AZretired is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Arizona & Michigan
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 337
Liked 583 Times in 313 Posts
Default

I carry one of 4 revolvers (M642, M638, M64 Snubby or a 3" 65). My load of choice is either the Remington or Federal 158 gr LSWC-HP +P. Its a proven stopper, mild recoil (faster follow-up shots) and works well in my 642 which is what I mostly carry.

Note: Todays +P rounds are not your Daddy's +P.
__________________
Support the NRA!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:25 PM
old tanker old tanker is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Fort Knox, Kentucky
Posts: 470
Likes: 1,400
Liked 641 Times in 256 Posts
Default

I use .357 158 grain LSWC in my 640-1. In fact, I prefer the heavier bullet in all my .357 revolvers. The recoil is heavier but not as sharp, which is easier for me to control.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:27 PM
vytoland's Avatar
vytoland vytoland is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,495
Likes: 9,007
Liked 4,580 Times in 1,823 Posts
Default

if shot placement is a given.....a hard cast .38 special bullet will give the desired results.....
__________________
There's nowt so queer as folk
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #18  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:34 PM
colt_saa's Avatar
colt_saa colt_saa is online now
SWCA Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 5,855
Likes: 288
Liked 7,010 Times in 2,256 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
This purpose of this thread isn't about recoil but more so bullet performance. Let's assume you can the control the recoil of the 357 in a snubby. Would you carry that load?
Without Hesitation

I switched from carrying a Model 60 Chief's Special Target to the J-Magnum model 60 Chief's Special in the late 1990s just so I could carry 357 Magnum ammunition. The Remington 125 SJHP has been my favorite load for these revolvers for two decades now.

I have successfully qualified every time with the firearm over these years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
I've heard many times that with the loss in velocity with 357 that you might as well carry 38 +P. But I simply refuse to believe that the 38 +P would perform better than the 357 even with loss in velocity. Maybe I'm wrong.
The amount of loss in velocity is an internet myth.

I gathered the average chronographed velocities obtained with 5 Smith and Wesson model 60s, 640s and a 340 all fired on the same day. Two five shot strings were obtained from each firearm. All ammunition was from the lot #

357 Magnum Winchester 125 JHP averaged 1205 FPS
357 Magnum Remington 125 SJHP averaged 1199 FPS
357 Magnum Remington 110 SJHP averaged 1230 FPS

It was interesting to notice that the 110 SJHP was faster than the 125s only in this instance.

These real world numbers are several hundred feet per second over what the manufacturers each claim for their 38 Special +P loadings

BTW, those averages include data from a factory ported model Performance Center 640. If I tossed that out and only included the non-ported snubbies, the averages go up about 10 FPS

No it is not fun to shoot, but these revolvers were not designed for plinking or a day of target shooting. These revolvers were designed to save your butt when you walked into something you did not expect. Under those conditions, I want the most power I can handle in the most comfortable package to carry.

Obviously 357 Magnum in a J-frame is not for everyone, and that is fine.

So let's step up to a 2 1/2" Model 19/66 K-frames, those velocities go up a little bit except with the 110. Only three revolvers were used to obtain these averages. We go to 1264 FPS, 1263 FPS and 1203 FPS respectively.

If we take this to a 3" barrel (1 Model 60 Pro and 1 F-comp) the Remington velocities go to 1290 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1243 FPS for the 110 SJHPs. Again the 110s are slower. I did not have enough of the Winchester left on hand for these revolvers.

OK going to 3 1/2" we have two N-frames (Both PC revolvers). Here the Remington velocities go to 1370 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1338 FPS for the 110 SJHPs. These did have tight B/C gaps that probably accounted for the higher velocities more than the extra 1/2" of barrel did. The Big N-frame, even with the short barrel, is much more pleasant to shoot than the smaller revolvers.

Sticking with the N-frame, I had two 4" model 27s. The Remington velocities go to 1391 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1321 FPS for the 110 SJHPs on these.

Taking this to the 5 1/2" Model 627 (sorry I only had one). The Remington velocities go to 1422 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1367 FPS for the 110 SJHPs on this one.

Now if you want the 357 Magnum to REALLY perform we can go to my 18" 1892 lever action. The Remington velocities go to 2049 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1727 FPS for the 110 SJHPs in this example.

I wish I had more ammunition and more real world guns to include in my study. However you can see that the loss in a 2" J-magnum is not as great as the Internet would like you to believe.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #19  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:36 PM
iPac's Avatar
iPac iPac is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 636
Likes: 725
Liked 692 Times in 293 Posts
Default

I carry 357mag in my snub Python.

Homebrews of 140gr XTP over 15gr of 2400.

Not extremely hot, but clock 1100fps through the chrono out of my 2.5" barrel.

I haven't had the chance to clock my 38spl +P and +P+ rounds, but I'm sure they're not close to the magnums.

Now, I am young and have practiced a great deal with 357mag. The recoil and follow up shots are not an issue. I settled on a gun that can accurately shoot them without excessive recoil.

There will be times when 38spl or even +P aren't going to be adequate for the job. I would rather be prepared in that event.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:57 PM
Lostaro Lostaro is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: SW VA
Posts: 122
Likes: 44
Liked 174 Times in 75 Posts
Default

If all else was equal of course I'd carry the more powerful round. Even if the .357 gave a only small bit of improvement over a .38+p...

Problem is, for me, all else is not equal. With hotter .357's I'm not nearly as accurate or fast with follow ups.

My only "snub" .357 is a 3" GP100, not a small gun, don't consider it a true snub. But I carry lighter .357's in it for control reasons.
I'm sure with me at the helm, control with an Airweight snub in .357 would suffer if heavy loads were used.

I have complete confidence in the .38spl being adequate for anything I can handle with just a handgun.

Last edited by Lostaro; 07-23-2017 at 12:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #21  
Old 07-23-2017, 01:05 PM
dubshooter dubshooter is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 224
Likes: 26
Liked 439 Times in 126 Posts
Default

Yeah. If a 38 can't handle it, chances are another handgun caliber also would fall short. In that situation you would probably need a rifle or shotgun (or a Hellfire)

38 is good for me. That's my $0.02
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #22  
Old 07-23-2017, 01:20 PM
Kifaru Kifaru is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 168
Likes: 123
Liked 155 Times in 81 Posts
Default

As far as ballistics, I think each person has to ask himself what he needs the bullet to do. Does the bullet need to penetrate intermediate barriers? Does it need good terminal performance at extended yardage? Does it need to humanely put down an animal weighing over 500 pounds? For most concealed carriers, the answer to the above questions would most likely be no. What most of us need a bullet to do is penetrate deep enough to reach a vital organ of a human attacker and to do enough damage to that organ once it reaches it. For that, one does not need maximum velocity, only enough velocity. What is enough? For myself, I feel perfectly comfortable carrying Speer Gold Dot .38 Special +P in my steel revolvers and Winchester Defend standard pressure in my Airweights. What is enough for you? No one can tell you that. Consider all of the plausible factors in your life, and decide for yourself.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #23  
Old 07-23-2017, 01:28 PM
Valmet's Avatar
Valmet Valmet is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 767
Likes: 248
Liked 327 Times in 223 Posts
Default

While I don't carry a .357 I do carry a 442 Airweight in the warmer months and like the old Chicago load in a Federal 158-gr+P SWCLHP. If I decided to carry my 27-2 I'd likely chose that load in it as well.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-23-2017, 01:44 PM
old&slow old&slow is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: central, Ohio
Posts: 934
Likes: 697
Liked 888 Times in 402 Posts
Default

Personally I prefer GM over Ford..

About two cylinders of full blown 158gr. 357 mag. out of my little M60 and I don't want to play no more.
So, for practice I use 357's loaded to 38 +P. Less wear and tear on me and the firearm.
For carry I prefer the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 gr. 357.
it chrono out of my M60 at about 1000 fps. I think it's a good compromise between a 38+ p and a .357.

That's my $0.02 worth.
Probably really doesn't matter because lately I been carrying a Shield 9mm with 8 rounds of 147 gold dots.
Attached Thumbnails
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P-dscf0027-jpg  

Last edited by old&slow; 07-23-2017 at 01:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #25  
Old 07-23-2017, 02:15 PM
dubshooter dubshooter is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 224
Likes: 26
Liked 439 Times in 126 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by old&slow View Post

That's my $0.02 worth.
Probably really doesn't matter because lately I been carrying a Shield 9mm with 8 rounds of 147 gold dots.
Geez. Don't you know 124gr is better?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #26  
Old 07-23-2017, 02:17 PM
Walkingwolf's Avatar
Walkingwolf Walkingwolf is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 608
Likes: 451
Liked 487 Times in 275 Posts
Default

A determined attacker can attack while legally dead for several seconds. A second is a longggg time while being attacked. Wild pigs are taken by sportsman with a .22 magnum air rifle. Let me repeat that, a .22 magnum air rifle. The secret, head shots, spinal shots are difficult but both most times results in an instant stop.

Now we get down to what happens in most stops where the assailant does not stop due to instant CNS hit. They stop because they want to stop, they do not want to get shot again, they just want to get away, if not survive until help arrives.

Very few cases where the criminal keeps fighting after being shot. So a lot of factors added. Percentage of citizens being a victim of a crime. Percentage of citizens falling victim to violent crime. Percentage of cases where a criminal continues to fight after being critically, or fatally shot. I think they call this risk assessment.

All that out of the way I have enough confidence that in most cases I can depend on a 22lr. It is in my pants pocket every waking minute. When I am out of the house I carry a variety of calibers, confident in all of them. But then I don't plan on getting into a shootout.

Of course I respect others choice to carry more, or less than they feel safe with.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 07-23-2017, 02:19 PM
Bill In Texas Bill In Texas is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,734
Likes: 1,927
Liked 459 Times in 379 Posts
Default

I guess I'm a little different. First of all, I'm a believer in the NY reload. I know that the chances that I'll ever need to reload are slim if, (heaven forbid), I ever find myself having to use my weapon in a self defense situation.

That being said, my primary carry is a 640-1. The five rounds in it are Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain .357's. I find that these rounds are not any more difficult for me to shoot than the .38 special variety.

In my bug and all my back up ammo I use the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain .38 specials. Obviously, they will work in both pistols. So, I guess I cast my vote for both.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 07-23-2017, 02:51 PM
colt_saa's Avatar
colt_saa colt_saa is online now
SWCA Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 5,855
Likes: 288
Liked 7,010 Times in 2,256 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill In Texas View Post
I guess I'm a little different. First of all, I'm a believer in the NY reload.
Did you know there is a holster for that

I just got this one late last year.

I really like it. Both can even be drawn at the same time.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-23-2017, 02:58 PM
woodsltc's Avatar
woodsltc woodsltc is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 2,779
Likes: 1,567
Liked 2,131 Times in 901 Posts
Default

I didn't read any of the responses to the OP.....but my 2 cents worth of advise is to use whatever you can shoot with the most accuracy. Bullet placement is the most important thing IMO.

Don
__________________
Laus Deo! <><

Last edited by woodsltc; 07-23-2017 at 03:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 07-23-2017, 03:34 PM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 152
Likes: 8
Liked 84 Times in 49 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
I shoot low end .357s that are stronger than any .38+P, but nowhere near the blast and recoil. People talk about the .38/40 and the 'FBI load' but with a .357 you can match these or make them a little stronger. They are useful, especially in a house. If I have a gun with a .38 +P in it, I don't feel under armed. If I ever have to pull a trigger, I'm not going to stop at one shot.
There seems to be a fair amount of evidence that if you shoot an attacker at least two or three times, it matters a lot less what load is being used as far as stopping power is concerned.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-23-2017, 03:48 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,041
Likes: 2
Liked 656 Times in 387 Posts
Default

You can get many opinions on this subject, but it all comes down to what a shooter can handle. That's a personal and objective thing based on skill level. There can be a significant difference in velocity between the factory loads the original poster mentioned, but how much this matters in a real life situation is subject to debate.

Probably the best thing to do is get a variety of ammunition and shoot them at targets, and not up real close like many people do, conveniently using the excuse that deadly encounters only happen at very short distances. If one can hit his target consistently at 25 yards, he'll have no trouble up closer. 25 yard shooting will blatantly point out a shooter's skill or lack of same and may be a determining factor regarding which ammunition to use.

Personally, I find .357 Magnum muzzle blast horrendous from a snubnose gun and the recoil is quite unpleasant as well. These are loadings best reserved for very experienced handgunners that shoot a lot and can take advantage of any alleged benefit provided by greater velocity.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-23-2017, 03:49 PM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 152
Likes: 8
Liked 84 Times in 49 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpg View Post
My experience shooting critters with a handgun has convinced me that hard cast swc projectiles perform much better than projectiles designed to expand.

Folks enjoy reading ballistic tables and looking at ballistic gel tests. Unfortunately, folks imagine that these things are determinative of effectiveness. My experience suggests that reasoning is hyperbolic.

Muzzle energy overstates effectiveness because it overemphasizes velocity in a handgun. Momentum is a much better predictor of effectiveness in flesh and bone than muzzel energy.

Velocity is important only in that you need enough to obtain adequate penetration. Sacrificing bullet weight to obtain higher velocity is a fool's errand in my opinion.

I'm very skeptical about expanding bullets in handguns, particularly short barreled handguns.

I see no benefit in trying to squeeze more velocity from a short barreled handgun with 357 as opposed to 38 special.
My feelings exactly.
I carry and use nothing but hard or soft semi-wadcutters, or hollow-based full wadcutters.
Have not fired a jacketed bullet in over 20 years in a handgun, not counting cheap ball loads for practice only, and don't plan to in the forseeable future
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #33  
Old 07-23-2017, 03:58 PM
Bill In Texas Bill In Texas is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,734
Likes: 1,927
Liked 459 Times in 379 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
Did you know there is a holster for that

I just got this one late last year.

I really like it. Both can even be drawn at the same time.
Where can I find one! That is awesome!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #34  
Old 07-23-2017, 04:17 PM
Old Corp's Avatar
Old Corp Old Corp is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Posts: 1,803
Likes: 725
Liked 1,992 Times in 747 Posts
Default

My only .357 snub is a M640. With the proper grips, I have no real issue with accuracy or decent follow up shots using most magnum ammo.
Yes, it's a little on the exciting side, and not something you wanna run 200 rounds a session through, but entirely doable.

Everyone has had their walk and experiences. I have this niggling feeling that prevents me being completely comfortable carrying .38 +P's.
It was what I was carrying in my issued M66 back in the early '80's. To date me, it was S&W-brand .38 Spl. 125 gr. JHP +P.
I was involved in a shooting where I placed four (4) of those around the sternum of an EDP rushing at me with a raised butcher knife.
They had all the effect of a water-pistol.
I was able to deliver a CNS shot that essentially saved my posterior.

So, I'm pretty sure that current technology bullet design has come a long way and performs better now. But, these misgivings still reside in a corner of my noggin.
__________________
Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #35  
Old 07-23-2017, 04:27 PM
Old cop Old cop is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,817
Likes: 792
Liked 6,271 Times in 2,001 Posts
Default

I've found that shooting .357 out of either my 340M&P, or my 340PD (both no lock models), is too difficult from the standpoint of accurate follow up shots. I carry the Speer +P in four chambers and the last round is a 125 grain magnum. I don't know if this has solved anything but at least I have one round of .357 on board.
__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Last edited by Old cop; 07-23-2017 at 04:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-23-2017, 04:33 PM
colt_saa's Avatar
colt_saa colt_saa is online now
SWCA Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 5,855
Likes: 288
Liked 7,010 Times in 2,256 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill In Texas View Post
Where can I find one! That is awesome!
The maker is Bell Charter Oak

BELL CHARTER OAK CUSTOM HOLSTERS PANCAKE STYLES (607) 783-2483

Last edited by colt_saa; 07-23-2017 at 04:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 07-23-2017, 04:40 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 826
Likes: 264
Liked 528 Times in 265 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues7 View Post
You may also find the info provided by Lucky Gunner on this page of interest for comparison purposes.

It is specifically tailored to .38 and .357 ammo though the gel utilized is not the same as that used in the FBI protocol nor Dr. Roberts' testing.

That said, the penetration, expansion and images provided are interesting.
None of the other comments make as much noise as this one above. There is real data that can be used. I'm changing my .38 load because of it. Thank you.

Lessons learned:
1. Choose your bullets wisely in a 2" .38 staying lighter for expansion.
2. Muzzle velocity must exceed 860 fps for reliable expansion.
3. A 2" .357 doesn't have expansion problems.
__________________
This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #38  
Old 07-23-2017, 04:54 PM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 721
Liked 2,025 Times in 689 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
None of the other comments make as much noise as this one above. There is real data that can be used. I'm changing my .38 load because of it. Thank you.
My pleasure.
__________________
3" 686+, 642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-23-2017, 06:58 PM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,828
Likes: 2,876
Liked 1,857 Times in 755 Posts
Default

.357 Magnum loads will generate higher velocities, even in snubs. However, I don't live in a vacuum so just that aspect in isolation isn't a very practical question for me. Even if I could control it well, other factors include increased muzzle blast and flash. I suppose one could use a mid-range load, like the Speer SB-GDHP, but then the velocity advantage is reduced.

"Stopping power" is a very difficult concept to quantify. When someone mentions how powerful the 125gr .357 Magnum JHP is, I think of the LEO who was hit with that round in the heart, but was still able to overcome his (or her? I can't remember...) attacker and survive. I also remember reading a couple of stories of attackers who were stopped instantly with one or two rounds of Federal 125gr Nyclads, which some consider anemic for self defense. What I have seen is data showing that among the typical handgun service calibers, there isn't much difference between them in terms of how well they can stop an attacker. I probably wouldn't worry over whether I should use .357 Magnum over .38 Special in a snub. I'd just pick a good self defense load that I can shoot well and leave it at that.

Just my opinion.

FWIW, even when I had a 3" 65, it was kept loaded with .38 Special +P loads.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-23-2017, 07:07 PM
Pisgah Pisgah is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 4
Liked 1,404 Times in 575 Posts
Default

Which load is "better" from a snubnose -- .38+P or .357 Mag.-- is a matter of opinion. Which is faster is a matter of fact -- it will always be the .357.

Across the board, regardless of caliber, the load that is fastest in a long barrel will be fastest in a short barrel. Just as with engines, "There is no substitute for cubic inches."
__________________
Pisgah
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #41  
Old 07-24-2017, 06:40 AM
white cloud white cloud is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Way Down South
Posts: 292
Likes: 104
Liked 138 Times in 78 Posts
Default

I would hate to touch off a full throttle .357 in an automobile or my home without hearing protection.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 07-24-2017, 12:25 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 826
Likes: 264
Liked 528 Times in 265 Posts
Default

Since the .38 folks demand to be treated as equals...which carry load do you have that expands to 0.60"and penetrates 15"?
You have two choices for functional carry ammo: Winchester 130 gr. PDX and Ranger +P.
They don't meet the 0.60" expansion. They can't penetrate 15" expanded either. Nothing in a 2" .38 is capable of doing that, but these loads are actually doing something to transfer their energy. And then we have the Hydrashok... laziest bullet in the West. It might as well have a gone to lunch sign on the front of it. The cholesterol involved might increase lethality.
I'm not asking for people to bow down to the .357 and cast aside their .38's. I'm asking for folks to be reasonable and appreciate their .38's for what they are: mild shooting, convenient, aesthetically pleasing, accurate and capable. I'm asking that they realize that while it's a great gun, it's not a .357 and it's not on the same level as a .357. They're different and size matters in both power and convenience.
__________________
This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 07-24-2017, 12:33 PM
Walkingwolf's Avatar
Walkingwolf Walkingwolf is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 608
Likes: 451
Liked 487 Times in 275 Posts
Default

I am reasonable, I carry anything from a .22 to a .45. No justification needed.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #44  
Old 07-24-2017, 11:58 PM
TomkinsSP's Avatar
TomkinsSP TomkinsSP is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: May 2017
Location: E of America's Great Lake
Posts: 301
Likes: 39
Liked 238 Times in 109 Posts
Default

In my limited real-world experience humanoids struck by .38 s&w special wadcutters and semi-wadcutters ceased being threats upon being hit. I fail to understand why some threats would continue to be threats if hit by accurate fire from a .38 s&w special. Of course as the .357 remington magnum and .38 s&w special +p are 'faster' .38 specials they would also do the job, certainly no worse, maybe better, (I mean how much dead-er than dead can one be.) I also fail to understand how a humanoid hit with inaccurate fire (say in the glute or thumb) by a .357 would be more incapacitated than if hit by inaccurate fire from a .38+p or garden variety .38. Being more powerful I am certain the humanoid hit would sustain a greater amount of tissue damage, but I don't see how that translates into incapacitation with periphreal hits or how the greater energy transfer is meaningful in cns or cartio hits.
As a disclaimer I might add that with all due repect I think Dr. Roberts is doing a phenomenal job of measuring with great precision (I am sorry, here) the wrong variable. In my limited real-world experience hollow points fired from snubbies don't expand. Flat lead metplats crush and destroy tissue. Velocity is not as important as momentum. Expansion is irrelevant, the amount of tissue disrupted is significant. The placement of a projectile is paramount and no amount of expansion can correct poor placement. (Just my $0.02)
__________________
Its better without the...
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #45  
Old 07-25-2017, 12:48 AM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 826
Likes: 264
Liked 528 Times in 265 Posts
Default

Well if we don't need expansion...we could just all shoot hydrashoks...Lord knows they don't expand. In my limited real world experience, you'd better like talking to the person you shoot or shoot a whole lotta bullets.
__________________
This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 07-25-2017, 10:53 AM
nachogrande nachogrande is online now
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gods waiting room
Posts: 784
Likes: 545
Liked 680 Times in 335 Posts
Default THE LATESEST WALYWORLD GUN RAG HOGWASH.

[QUOTE=forrestinmathews;139679834]Since the .38 folks demand to be treated as equals...which carry load do you have that expands to 0.60"and penetrates 15"?
You have two choices for functional carry ammo: Winchester 130 gr. PDX and Ranger +P.
They don't meet the 0.60" expansion. They can't penetrate 15" expanded either. Nothing in a 2" .38 is capable of doing that, but these loads are actually doing something to transfer their energy. And then we have the Hydrashok... laziest bullet in the West. It might as well have a gone to lunch sign on the front of it. The cholesterol involved might increase lethality.
I'm not asking for people to bow down to the .357 and cast aside their .38's. I'm asking for folks to be reasonable and appreciate their .38's for what they are: mild shooting, convenient, aesthetically pleasing, accurate and capable. I'm asking that they realize that while it's a great gun, it's not a .357 and it's not on the same level as a .357. They're different and size matters in both power and convenience.

Making statements as "ABSOLUTES" is just ridiculous. Nobody since Steve McQueen in the blob has been attacked by gelatin. I'm leaning more & more towards the 38 special hard cast/ wide meplat/ flat nosed boolits, & they don't need warp speed to work well (on animals). Fabric clogging up HP's is a theoretical concern. At arms length/bad breath range, will it really matter? Maybe yes/maybe no, each individual case will be different. Who knows? I'm certainly not gonna tell someone else what they have to use.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #47  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:03 AM
Walkingwolf's Avatar
Walkingwolf Walkingwolf is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 608
Likes: 451
Liked 487 Times in 275 Posts
Default

Making statements as "ABSOLUTES" is just ridiculous. Nobody since Steve McQueen in the blob has been attacked by gelatin. I'm leaning more & more towards the 38 special hard cast/ wide meplat/ flat nosed boolits, & they don't need warp speed to work well (on animals). Fabric clogging up HP's is a theoretical concern. At arms length/bad breath range, will it really matter? Maybe yes/maybe no, each individual case will be different. Who knows? I'm certainly not gonna tell someone else what they have to use.

Is there way I can like this twice. I was beginning to think I was the only one to believe in personal choice.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #48  
Old 07-25-2017, 01:06 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 136
Likes: 35
Liked 173 Times in 63 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
...
As a disclaimer I might add that with all due repect I think Dr. Roberts is doing a phenomenal job of measuring with great precision (I am sorry, here) the wrong variable. In my limited real-world experience hollow points fired from snubbies don't expand. Flat lead metplats crush and destroy tissue. Velocity is not as important as momentum. Expansion is irrelevant, the amount of tissue disrupted is significant. The placement of a projectile is paramount and no amount of expansion can correct poor placement. (Just my $0.02)
My disclaimer is the only thing I'm an expert at is not being an expert at anything.

Been a while ago. I had read about a group of trauma surgeons that were making the point that they weren't seeing the JHP expansion in real human shootings for bullets that had been shown to expand totally reliably in ballistic gel. They suggested in real world shootings, 148gr wadcutters did as much damage in real humans as JHP's because the JHP's weren't expanding. They didn't seem to have the clout to overcome the "FBI says" lobby.

Since I'm not a trauma surgeon or a ballistics expert, I don't have a good way to judge which side is true. I can look and see some pretty smart, BTDT people aren't "all in" with the results from ballistic gel testing being the holy grail of bullet performance.
__________________
Vegan by proxy.

Last edited by Ziggy2525; 07-25-2017 at 01:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #49  
Old 07-25-2017, 04:41 PM
forrestinmathews forrestinmathews is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 826
Likes: 264
Liked 528 Times in 265 Posts
Default

Try this on for size...I have recovered .380 and .45 hydrashok bullets from deer and I found that the majority of the bullets failed to penetrate through major muscle groups or failed expand no matter where they impacted. They looked similar to the gelatin recovered bullets for the .38 hydrashok 2" barrel.

I was going off the test data which was based on hollowpoints. Go ahead and cobble together any load you like and make it work. Talk about meplats and tissue disturbance to keep the .38 level with the .357 in your mind. Guess you need something to talk about since hollowpoint expansion isn't going so well.
I'd like to see a wad cutter load that had some oomph to it. I'm sure it will work fairly well and might even offer controlled penetration and some energy transfer.
__________________
This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-25-2017, 05:41 PM
kthom kthom is offline
Member
Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: West Texas
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 1,447
Liked 1,870 Times in 762 Posts
Default

"I'd like to see a wad cutter load that had some oomph to it. I'm sure it will work fairly well and might even offer controlled penetration and some energy transfer."

This one ain't too bad!
Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
__________________
So long ... Pudge
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hodgdon HS-6 .44 M Snubby Load ?? mejetski2000 Reloading 28 07-07-2017 03:48 PM
'best' non +p defense load for .38 SPL snubby kmrcstintn Ammo 26 02-12-2015 06:20 PM
Outstanding load for my snubby Super Dave Reloading 8 08-13-2014 05:59 AM
Recommend a 38 snubby SD load RGMoore S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 27 12-02-2011 02:46 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:56 PM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)