4. To put it next to you on a nightstand, endtable, or sink counter while in the shower (in a child-free or similar home)

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Colt 45 M1911/S&W M&P Shield 9

I'd call it in and wait for uniforms to show up and deal with the goof. I would operate on the presumption that he is an escapee because of the cuffs. A guy in a jumpsuit could just be going to a party, but not too many people are going to cuff themselves and stop at a store.

I have noticed several responses that equate handcuffed with harmless, that is a big mistake. An individual cuffed in front without a transport belt to restrict arm movement is perfectly capable of killing you. Two colleagues were careless and had their handcuffed prisoner beat them senseless, steal one of their pistols, and drive off with their car. I can think of several other escapes in recent years that were similar. If anything handcuffs should be a really clear warning that the individual is a threat.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

I agree with the majority here and will heartily add my Hell No.

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Support your Police, & NRA

Ding-ding-ding.

I personally enjoyed the "but he's handcuffed" objections. Tell ya what--handcuff me, give me a ballpoint pen, and then let me show you how "unarmed" I am.

I believe I'd have had my hand on my pistol, but low-key, at the most. One, I don't know if this guy has friends. Two, I don't want to broadcast to a guy that I believe may be an escaped inmate that if he murders me, he gets a bonus gun to murder some deputies with.

Basically, I want to be as inconspicuous as possible. If I'm clear in back, then I can be more ready (hand on grip) than if I'm in the middle of a bunch of people (one of whom might get the silly idea to grab my gun, or my gun arm, which would escalate the situation to very nasty places I don't like to dwell on).

So--ready to shoot, not advertising the fact, and getting to a position of safety ASAP.

A concealed carry permit does not make you an LEO. As I told my wife when I told her I getting my permit and would be carrying. "I'm not looking for trouble, I'm not trying to stop crimes or out to enforce laws. I carry so that we can get home safely every night"

I would have left, called 911 from a safe distance and only drawn my gun if directly threatened with violence. I would help others if I could or really needed to step in but only in extreme circumstances.

Who do you think you are? John Wick?

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Colt 45 M1911/S&W M&P Shield 9

What he did falls in the category of "shouting fire in a crowded theater," per Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, in regard to limits on the First Amendment.

I recall another incident a few years ago, where a couple of YouTubers dressed in Arab robes, toting simulated RPG launchers. They were arrested without incident. Legally, it doesn't matter if weapons are real or not if used in a threatening manner. That said, "BB guns" (more likely, detail-accurate Airsoft guns) are not seen as a threat, after the event, by the liberal press.

I think there is a cure for stupidity, which these gents managed to avoid.

Since I don't wear my pants in the shower, it actually stays in the holster on the belt on the pants on the hook on the back of the bathroom door.

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Certified Curmudgeon

No
Ni one was in immediate danger of great bodily harm or death.
Cell phone is best weapon here - good thing it was used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find it interesting that people are always trying to lengthen or complicate the simple list. No, this is covered by #3.

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Freedom isn't free.

Well, it is if you count just laying around on a counter or table as "putting away . . . "

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I disagree.

To "put away" means (IMHO) to store it for non-instant access or for permanent storage, either short (overnight) or long term.

Therefore, #4 is—indeed— appropriate for those of us that either (have no children at home, live only with responsible gun owners, live alone, etc).

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Colt 45 M1911/S&W M&P Shield 9

We didn't have to deal with this 20-30 years ago. Today's society is gone to the dogs. Morons all over the place.

Another tic mark here for no guns required in this situation. No matter how much public service might be done by removing someone this stupid from the gene pool.

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America First

There were no criminals or grand-standing people back then? What planet are you from?

Don't you remember the streaking craze?

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Freedom isn't free.

Now wait a minute. An individual enters an establishment dressed in jail garb, handcuffed, and trying to get a ride and most of you consider him to not be a threat?!?

Handgun aimed squarely at his thoracic triangle and ordered to hit the ground. Failure to instantly comply, BANG. I don't care if he was scotch-hobbled.

Let his next of kin explain the joke to the authorities. If I took the attitude that it wasn't my business because he didn't act bad with me, and I later found out he murdered/raped someone, then I wouldn't be able to forgive myself.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Streaking and Candid Camera. Where's Allen Funt?

Staff and patrons behaved responsibly despite the provocations of an idiot. Go thou and do likewise. Move along, nothing to see here.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

You have got to be kidding me!!!

This bozo is a 24-karat doo-dah! Not a threat?? Not a threat?? You might want to rethink that.

31FordA, jlrhiner, and others have explained that just because this idiot is handcuffed, sure as heck does not mean he doesn't present a danger to people. Also, just for clarification...his jumpsuit said "Inmate" and "State Penitentiary." We aren't talking county jail here, folks. He's not in for loitering, drunk driving or shoplifting.

How the heck are we to know that a guy in state penitentiary garb and handcuffs is doing it just for chuckles? I can see it now..."Golly, officer, I thought it was just a YouTube prank until he grabbed that little girl standing over by the doughnut rack and slit her throat."

He claims that he does these stunts "to shed light" on things that need to be changed. WHAT???!!! Baloney!! He's doing it for one reason and one reason only...to get money. He's had over 25,000 hits on his YouTube video already. Ka-ching!

He's also in the process of doing another so-called "prank video" where he pretends to steal somebody's car. Tell me now, what sociological response that supposedly needs changing will he be "shedding light" upon by doing this? If you actually believe that line of bull....aw, forget it.

I know some folks say that if they saw an escaped con running around like that, begging people for a ride, they'd quietly back off and call 911 because they aren't law enforcement and that's not their job. Besides, he might not be in prison for murder, or rape, or assault, or killing his girlfriend's baby. Maybe he's only in for drug-related charges. Perfectly harmless. Right?

Yep, and we'd probably sit back in our seats on an airliner, too, if some nut job tried to take over the plane, because we aren't air marshals. Besides, who knows?...it could just be this idiot doing another YouTube prank.

All I can say is, I sure hope he doesn't pick my truck to "pretend" to steal as his next prank. Utah laws state that a personal vehicle has the same status as one's home and if someone tries to carjack it, you can react with deadly force. That's why the state passed a law that says you can carry a fully-loaded weapon in your vehicle, concealed or not, at all times without a permit.

You can bet the ranch that one would get tons of hits on YouTube, but sadly, he would no longer be around to collect his money. What a shame.

Okay, okay. Rant over. I'm gonna go pop up a batch of popcorn, heavy on the butter, sit in my rocking chair and watch a John Wayne movie.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

Pretty sure there's not a jurisdiction in the country where the circumstances you describe before you would pull the trigger constitute authorization to use deadly force on an unarmed, restrained individual without prior knowledge of the exact circumstances (news release, Amber alert, etc. ). . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I agree. I'm not a cop. I have no business ordering anyone to do anything that isn't a direct threat to me. I would be cautious but I would not overreact. If he focused his attention on me then it might be a different story.

This a prime example of people that are so focused on their perceived threat that they don't realize that there may be an accomplice nearby in the store or outside.

Keep calm. Use common sense.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Being an "inmate" from a "state prison" takes him out of any reasonable protection guaranteed by law. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. As a reasonable person, I believe that others may be in danger if he is allowed to leave. He has already forfeited his rights. He gets no break.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Pretty sure you'd lose that battle in court absent some prior knowledge . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Oh if it were just that simple.

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America First

I would rethink that unless you find a vacation staying the grey bar hotel a vacation.

Good luck with that. You are NOT judge and jury. The only time you get to decide if deadly force is necessary is if YOU are in IMMEDIATE danger of bodily harm or you WITNESS harm being done to someone who can't defend themselves.

An "inmate" in orange jump suit and handcuffs is not an immediate threat. Could he be dangerous? Yes. But no more or less than anyone else.

I suggest you leave emotion out of this and use some common sense. People don't need to be shot just because they act stupid and pull a juvenile prank. If that were the case, every one of us should have been shot for the stupid things we did when we were young.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

How? I'm analyzing the facts as they're presented to me. The only knowledge I have is standing right in front of me. I have no reason to believe any other scenario exists. There is an escaped felon attempting to flee right in front of me.

We can make a citizens arrest. We can use deadly force to prevent someone from harming someone else. Do you disagree with either of these statements?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Facts? What facts? The facts you perceive that may just be wrong? Are you willing to take that chance?

Be a good witness and call the police.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

No emotion. I am not aware of a juvenile prank. I am aware of an escaped felon attempting to flee right in front of me. He doesn't have to get shot, but thats entirely up to him.

I suggest some of you re-evaluate your testosterone out put. Society is screwed up because the majority won't take a stand for what is right for fear of "retribution", wether legal or otherwise.

I will NOT stand idly by while evil rampages in my presence. Never have, never will.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

My perception of the situation is all that matters.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

You answered your own question with that statement. The "escaped prisoner" has not harmed anyone in that store. So, based on your statement, no...you can't use deadly force.

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Colt 45 M1911/S&W M&P Shield 9

You would not think an escaped felon trying to get a ride would harm someone if allowed to flee?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Lets take this in another direction.

What would a uniformed Law Enforcement Officer do in the same situation?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Obviously we disagree. But one fact remains. You will have a very difficult time explaining your actions to the police, a judge, and jury. All that because you think the man is a threat. I suggest you take your own advice sir and check your testosterone and realize that the world doesn't see things through your eyes.

I'm done before I get myself in trouble.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

You just answered your own question. You're not a cop.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

But I am responsible for my own safety and that of my loved ones, right? Or do you believe the police will take care of you?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Alright, I'll change the question.

What would an off duty LEO do in the same situation?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

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Colt 45 M1911/S&W M&P Shield 9

You don't have to have a law degree to know whats right.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Oh, come on, Jim. That's just not true. It's how the district attorney perceives it. After they look at details that you'd never think mattered in a million years, making your life miserable in the process, they'll probably offer a plea bargain for your trouble.
Not really trying to give you a hard time, just been there-done that during my police career. We always think we are completely in the right, but government lawyers take that as a challenge to prove you wrong.
That said, now that I'm retired, I'm no longer getting paid to take risks that may or may not be worth it or change my life in ways no one imagined. I know how non-cops that use deadly force are perceived by the system. And I firmly believe that "no good deed goes unpunished." So unless my life or that of my companion is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm, then I'm just gonna concentrate on being the best possible witness.

Of course we had criminals and streakers. What we have today is anyone with a camera or iPhone desperately seeking there 15 minutes of fame. You have idiots falling off cliffs trying to take selfies. This era of Facebook and YouTube has taken stupid to a whole new level.

I believe that you are mistaken about that in the case of a citizen's arrest. Many years ago, in one state, I believe that one had to be right, not reasonable.

Obviously, this is something best checked out with a lawyer, to learn both the applicable statutes and a practical view of the law in your location.

From Missouri Statutes;

563.051. Private person's use of force in making an arrest. — 1. A private person who has been directed by a person he or she reasonably believes to be a law enforcement officer to assist such officer to effect an arrest or to prevent escape from custody may, subject to the limitations of subsection 3 of this section, use physical force when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to carry out such officer's direction unless he or she knows or believes that the arrest or prospective arrest is not or was not authorized.
  2. A private person acting on his or her own account may, subject to the limitations of subsection 3 of this section, use physical force to arrest or prevent the escape of a person whom such private person reasonably believes has committed an offense, and who in fact has committed such offense, when the private person's actions are immediately necessary to arrest the offender or prevent his or her escape from custody.
  3. A private person in effecting an arrest or in preventing escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only:
  (1) When deadly force is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or
  (2) When he or she reasonably believes deadly force is authorized under the circumstances and he or she is directed or authorized by a law enforcement officer to use deadly force; or
  (3) When he or she reasonably believes such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to arrest a person who at that time and in his or her presence:
  (a) Committed or attempted to commit a class A felony or murder; or
  (b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon.
  4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

(L. 1977 S.B. 60, A.L. 2014 S.B. 491)
Effective 1-01-17


I believe paragraph 3(a) covers this scenario.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

And this is a +;


  563.074. Justification as an absolute defense, when. — 1. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 563.016, a person who uses force as described in sections 563.031, 563.041, 563.046, 563.051, 563.056, and 563.061 is justified in using such force and such fact shall be an absolute defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability.
  2. The court shall award attorney's fees, court costs, and all reasonable expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant has an absolute defense as provided in subsection 1 of this section.

(L. 2007 S.B. 62 & 41)

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

So not applicable to this situation.

So, acting on one's own, one must both (1) reasonably believe the target has committed an offense, and (2) even if the belief was reasonable, the target must have in fact committed such offense; if the target didn't in fact commit the offense, one's reasonable belief is not at all relevant. And even if both conditions are met, one's acts must have been immediately necessary.

  So - even if one somehow overcame the limitations on a private citizen attempting to make an arrest, once that attempt gets up to the use of deadly force (and - sidenote - in many jurisdictions pointing a deadly weapon at someone could constitute the use of deadly force) one still has to show that the target committed or attempted to commit a Class A Felony or murder in one's presence. I'm not going to research what constitutes a Class A felony in Missouri because I think your goose is cooked.

Your sympathies may be in the right place, but I believe you are wildly mistaken on how the justice system would treat your proposed actions in this circumstance.

(this is not legal advice, etc.).

Doesn't matter.
You're not a cop (off duty or otherwise)
You don't have a duty to respond
You don't have qualified immunity
You don't have a union lawyer who will defend you at taxpayer exspense.

I'll say it again.

I'd leave.

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Retired Career Security Guard

This discussion is a great illustration of just how freaking careful you have to be in potential lethal force situations where your (subjectively perfectly justified) perspective may be objectively completely wrong.

Setting the matter of personal judgment aside, there is no question that, had Mr. Rhiner and his gun be present, the risk of a bad outcome would have been significantly increased. Worst case, the idiot would have died needlessly and Mr. Rhiner would have ruined the next few years of his life (and potentially much more) with a legal nightmare, no matter how righteous he felt about his actions and how the criminal and civil actions ultimately turned out in court.

Keep in mind that lots of people will be interpreting the law if you're involved in a case like this, but you won't be one of them. So the fact that you've decided that the suspect you shot was "out of any reasonable protection guaranteed by law" and has "forfeited his rights" isn't going to impress anyone. In fact, using that kind of language isn't going to help at all. Giving the impression that you've appointed yourself to dispose of other people's rights is a surefire way to turn everyone including a jury against you.

By being an escaped felon, they have met the parameters set forth in the above section of statutes. You who twist the meaning of words to suit your own agenda can claim anything you wish. The LAW clearly states otherwise.

Its clear to me, that if most of you had been there, a potential child raping murdering animal abuser would have walked right out of the place while you shrugged your shoulders and said to yourselves "It's none of my business". Sure, the OP's scenario ended with a "it's only a joke". But you didn't know that. What if it had been Manson? Or Dahmer? Or one of the 10's of thousands like them?

No, you don't have a duty to respond. Your not obligated to do anything.

How could you live with yourselves?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

No, LEO and the court's perception of your perception are what matter . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Okay, I'll play. What Class A Felony or Murder did this person commit in anyone's presence? In Missouri, escape from custody is a Class E Felony, one step more serious than a misdemeanor . . .

Like I first posted, the solution to this issue is an elbow to the jaw. Solves several problems. No deadly force, dude quits acting like an idiot, if he is actually escaped, he's down for count, and he probably won't do this again. Problem solved . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Would you draw your weapon?

I may not have had the situational awareness to see what appears to be an escaped convict running right at me from behind, but having read threads on situational awareness I know many here do.

In the below pic.... Seems reasonable to me that if an armed person (say the guy in the dark red shirt) believes an escaped convict is running directly at them would draw his weapon.

In Tennessee I believe it would easily fit the definition.

(2) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if:

(A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

(B) The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

(C) The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

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