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  #101  
Old 07-30-2017, 09:44 AM
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Here the law is probably similar. To be brief, a citizen can use force to detain a person he has reasonable articulable suspicion committed one of the Common Law Felonies (murder, manslaughter, mayhem (gotcha Allstate guy*), battery, rape, sodomy, burglary, larceny, robbery). Only so much force as necessary to detain until law enforcement arrives may be used. Deadly force can only be used to protect yourself or another innocent party in your presence from the ongoing commission of one of those crimes. ALSO the law pertaining to ADW states that you are committing an ADW if you INITIATE an assault while armed (other party initiates you don't have to let them choose weapons). Meaning if you punch FIRST while CCW you committ an ADW even if you KO the other party AND HE NEVER KNOWS YOU HAD A CW.
Not trying to be a jerk, its just that if you CCW, you need to know the law WHERE YOU LIVE as well as the likley interpretations the PD and DA will make. (And for all I know all of the other posters are completely in line with the law where THEY live.)
In the situation described I figure the idiot deserves anything he gets (I figure at least he is intentionally inflicting harm on others, possibly committing a simple assault if I read in a couple things not stated), he IS pissing in our Gene-pool, but would hate to see a CCW get the Goetz treatment. And hate to give 2d bashers more ammo for thier campaign.
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  #102  
Old 07-30-2017, 10:23 AM
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Not sure if this changes anyone's mind. This happened in Nebraska. Prison escape is a class 1A felony, similar to second degree murder, arson, and kidnapping.

Quote:
29-402.

Arrest by person not an officer.

Any person not an officer may, without warrant, arrest any person, if a petit larceny or a felony has been committed, and there is reasonable ground to believe the person arrested guilty of such offense, and may detain him until a legal warrant can be obtained.
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29-742.

Arrest without warrant by officer or citizen; when.

The arrest of a person may be lawfully made also by any peace officer or a private person, without a warrant upon reasonable information that the accused stands charged in the courts of a state with a crime punishable by death or imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, but when so arrested the accused must be taken before a judge or magistrate with all practicable speed and complaint must be made against him under oath setting forth the ground for the arrest as in section 29-741; and thereafter his answer shall be heard as if he had been arrested on a warrant.
I get the comments about not being a LEO so not jumping in. That answered my original question. Now that people are bringing up statutes, given the NE statutes above, is wearing prison garb, handcuffs and telling people you're an escapee "reasonable enough" suspicion of a felony (prison escape) to perform a citizen's arrest? If someone performs a citizen's arrest for a felony, can you detain the suspected BG at gunpoint until the police arrive? Didn't see anything in statutes about that.
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  #103  
Old 07-30-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Not sure if this changes anyone's mind. This happened in Nebraska. Prison escape is a class 1A felony, similar to second degree murder, arson, and kidnapping.


I get the comments about not being a LEO so not jumping in. That answered my original question. Now that people are bringing up statutes, given the NE statutes above, is wearing prison garb, handcuffs and telling people you're an escapee "reasonable enough" suspicion of a felony (prison escape) to perform a citizen's arrest? If someone performs a citizen's arrest for a felony, can you detain the suspected BG at gunpoint until the police arrive? Didn't see anything in statutes about that.
Sitting as a juror, since I am not a lawyer, it seems to me that anyone would be justified too use any amount of force reasonable to hold jumpsuit idiot for the LEOs. (Even had he not stated he was a felon, he is apparently a felon in NE.)

I did not know that the event happened in NE, howeve probably most of the posters on this forum don't live in NE (even if they secretly wished they did.) Maybe some of those places have similar laws, some don't and that's one of my two points.

I am not saying do nothing, do what you can without placing YOURS in jeopardy. And that in part depends on where you live. Remember too: many criminals work in teams, someone was filming this idiot, if they were really prison escapees #2 could have the 12ga he took off the guard they killed, (and jumpsuit idiot could have his Glock tucked in his waistband).

Play it smart, know the laws where you live, know how the PD and DA is likely to react, you can't protect your loved ones if you are awaiting acquittal in a show trial. It would suck if your mugshot was used on Michael Bloomberg's next letter soliciting funds to fight our 2d A rights. And it would truly suck if you spent junior's college fund on an attorney (and just let me say again I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.)
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  #104  
Old 07-30-2017, 12:47 PM
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For those interested by this discussion, Andrew Branca's "The Law of Self Defense" is a great read and only $10 for a Kindle version.



  #105  
Old 07-30-2017, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlrhiner View Post
By being an escaped felon, they have met the parameters set forth in the above section of statutes.
He wasn't an escaped felon

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Originally Posted by jlrhiner View Post
How could you live with yourselves?
I could ask you the same question. How are you going to live with yourself when you find out you just killed an innocent man?
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  #106  
Old 07-30-2017, 01:18 PM
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If your judgment is found not acceptable by a forum full of gun owners, probably most are conservative. Just what do you think a jury of regular people will vote concerning your guilt, or innocence in a use of force trial.
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  #107  
Old 07-30-2017, 01:26 PM
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Looks like we're about done here. Good luck, everybody . . .
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  #108  
Old 07-30-2017, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
There were no criminals or grand-standing people back then? What planet are you from?

Don't you remember the streaking craze?
I never felt threatened by a naked girl running by...but a dude in an orange jumpsuit, in hand cuffs ?? ...not much of a comparison if you ask me ...bit of a reach.
  #109  
Old 07-30-2017, 02:55 PM
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Only thing I would draw is my cell phone once I got out of the dummies sight. Now if the guy tried to follow me or came running towards me where I couldn't get away from him or block him from reaching me, he made a serious mistake. The very last thing I ever plan on is pretending to draw a gun I don't have. That could be more dangerous than dressing up in orange coveralls and handcuff.

Sometimes the gene pool gets mighty shallow.

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  #110  
Old 07-30-2017, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
Sitting as a juror, since I am not a lawyer, it seems to me that anyone would be justified too use any amount of force reasonable to hold jumpsuit idiot for the LEOs. (Even had he not stated he was a felon, he is apparently a felon in NE.)

I did not know that the event happened in NE, howeve probably most of the posters on this forum don't live in NE (even if they secretly wished they did.) Maybe some of those places have similar laws, some don't and that's one of my two points.

I am not saying do nothing, do what you can without placing YOURS in jeopardy. And that in part depends on where you live. Remember too: many criminals work in teams, someone was filming this idiot, if they were really prison escapees #2 could have the 12ga he took off the guard they killed, (and jumpsuit idiot could have his Glock tucked in his waistband).

Play it smart, know the laws where you live, know how the PD and DA is likely to react, you can't protect your loved ones if you are awaiting acquittal in a show trial. It would suck if your mugshot was used on Michael Bloomberg's next letter soliciting funds to fight our 2d A rights. And it would truly suck if you spent junior's college fund on an attorney (and just let me say again I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.)
Thanks for taking the time to put your response together. Great description of self defense related consequences when an action might be legal, but not wise.
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  #111  
Old 07-30-2017, 05:01 PM
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Pulling your concealed weapon is a little like posting your opinion here on the Smith & Wesson Forum. You might think you are correct, and it would be legal to do so, but it just wouldn't be wise.
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  #112  
Old 07-30-2017, 07:36 PM
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Default Oh, my goodness!

Sure hope some of you (you know of whom I am speaking) don't leave your homes on Halloween or any other time when folks might be engaging in 'dress up' activities or frivolity. Yes, even when folks are doing dumb stuff.

I am now envisioning some of you helping the 'police' handcuff brides to be at bachelorette parties.

But, truth be told, most of us don't 'solve' every problem we might encounter...or think we encounter...by shooting someone.

Be safe.
  #113  
Old 07-30-2017, 07:44 PM
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Given your scenario, I would not! Unless there's an immediate threat of death or GBI, I'd call 911 and make the perfect witness.
  #114  
Old 07-30-2017, 07:56 PM
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Sure hope some of you (you know of whom I am speaking) don't leave your homes on Halloween or any other time when folks might be engaging in 'dress up' activities or frivolity. Yes, even when folks are doing dumb stuff.
We must have a way different sense of humor.

Having someone show up at a gas station that's wearing a prison jump suit, cuffed in front, saying they're an escapee, claiming to have a weapon, then aggressively demanding a ride from customers seems a lot more sinister than a frivolity at a bachelorette party.

For me, your idea of a good time seems closer to carjacking than to a party game.
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  #115  
Old 07-30-2017, 08:09 PM
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He wasn't an escaped felon
Uh...just how the heck were we supposed to know that? How were we supposed to know that "it was just for laughs?" I mean, he seemed pretty darn serious about needing a ride out of there. And just for the record, it's not Halloween. It's July, folks.

When a guy cinched up in handcuffs and wearing an orange jumpsuit with the words "Inmate" and "State Penitentiary" emblazoned in bold letters comes running up to me, yelling that he needs a ride out of there quick, there's a pretty good chance I won't be thinking that he's just trying to sell me a box of Girl Scout cookies.

Like the old saying, "If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck....it's probably a duck."

Let's face facts...the guy is an idiot.

I have to give the fellow credit who ordered this clown to get down on the ground with his hands out in front of him. That took an over abundance of guts, especially since he didn't have a firearm to back up his demands.

To tell you the truth, I don't know what I'd do if put in that situation. You really don't know until you're there. But you can "bet your bobsled" that if I ordered that bozo to get down on the ground, I'd sure as heck have a firearm handy to hedge my bets.

I'm not talking about going crazy and shooting this guy, but until someone proves differently, the guy appears to be an escaped convict because: a.) he's in prison garb, b.) he's handcuffed, c.) he's wildly approaching people and desperately trying to get a ride.

Normal people just don't do that. Whether he was an escaped convict or not, I think most of us here will agree that this nut is "a half bubble off plumb."
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  #116  
Old 07-30-2017, 08:16 PM
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I live SIMPLE. "What if" does not exist. I was not there. UNTIL I AM, any answer I spew forth is hooey. Just my .02 cents worth.

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  #117  
Old 07-30-2017, 08:25 PM
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Default What?

Heard NO claim to have a weapon; heard ZERO aggression or demand.

Dude might be dumb, but if dumb people were regularly killed we likely would have a population shortfall...everywhere.

Be safe.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
We must have a way different sense of humor.

Having someone show up at a gas station that's wearing a prison jump suit, cuffed in front, saying they're an escapee, claiming to have a weapon, then aggressively demanding a ride from customers seems a lot more sinister than a frivolity at a bachelorette party.

For me, your idea of a good time seems closer to carjacking than to a party game.
  #118  
Old 07-30-2017, 08:34 PM
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I would like to point out that yes this guy is an idiot.

However, I wonder if anyone stopped to think why an escaped felon in an orange jump suit and handcuffs would stop and ask anyone for help? I think not.

It is more likely that an escapee would be surreptitious in his efforts until he could force a lone person to "help" him continue his escape. It is highly unlikely that he would let himself be seen by the public let alone walk into a store and ask for help.
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  #119  
Old 07-30-2017, 08:43 PM
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I would like to point out that yes this guy is an idiot.

However, I wonder if anyone stopped to think why an escaped felon in an orange jump suit and handcuffs would stop and ask anyone for help? I think not.

It is more likely that an escapee would be surreptitious in his efforts until he could force a lone person to "help" him continue his escape. It is highly unlikely that he would let himself be seen by the public let alone walk into a store and ask for help.
True, but then we have to ask ourselves, why do felons do the things they do in the first place? Their minds have to be a little fouled up, to say the least.

That being the case, I probably wouldn't take the time to analyze why an escaped felon would be running around crazy trying to bum a ride. Who knows just what goes through their minds? I sure don't.
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Old 07-30-2017, 08:47 PM
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Heard NO claim to have a weapon; heard ZERO aggression or demand.

Dude might be dumb, but if dumb people were regularly killed we likely would have a population shortfall...everywhere.

Be safe.
In the OP, the quote in the link was "acting as if he had a gun" so I guess that's open to interpretation. The article said "harassing" customers for a ride.

This wasn't just a guy that showed up at a convenience store/gas station to buy a soda on the way home from a costume party who happened to be wearing an inmate costume.

This guy was intentionally trying to scare people at the convenience store by portraying himself as an armed, desperate prison escapee so they could capture peoples reaction for a YouTube video. The bozo called it a "social experiment."
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  #121  
Old 07-30-2017, 08:58 PM
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...
It is more likely that an escapee would be surreptitious in his efforts until he could force a lone person to "help" him continue his escape. It is highly unlikely that he would let himself be seen by the public let alone walk into a store and ask for help.
That seems to make sense, but that wasn't how it worked with the real escapee from this May that this guy seemed to be trying to mimic.

After the real escapee killed a deputy and wounded another, he crashed the sheriff's transport van. He had no problem being seen in public. He had his jail jumpsuit on. He had his hands cuffed in front of him. He had the deceased deputy's Glock. He was walking down the middle of the street trying to carjack a car. He shot one civilian in the neck when the civilian tried to drive around him. IIRC he carjacked two more cars as he used them and crashed them. Nothing surreptitious.
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  #122  
Old 07-30-2017, 09:09 PM
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would i draw my gun....NO

would i exit stage left....YES
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  #123  
Old 07-30-2017, 09:14 PM
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True, but then we have to ask ourselves, why do felons do the things they do in the first place? Their minds have to be a little fouled up, to say the least.

That being the case, I probably wouldn't take the time to analyze why an escaped felon would be running around crazy trying to bum a ride. Who knows just what goes through their minds? I sure don't.
True. But you helped make my point. We just don't know. Which doesn't give us the legal or moral right to pull a gun. Cautious? Yes. But not extreme just yet.
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Old 07-30-2017, 09:14 PM
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Uh...just how the heck were we supposed to know that? How were we supposed to know that "it was just for laughs?" I mean, he seemed pretty darn serious about needing a ride out of there. And just for the record, it's not Halloween. It's July, folks.
Agree. But, see, that is a nice encapsulation of the problem.

In many jurisdictions, state law doesn't offer one a defense of "how was I supposed to know?" An honest, law-abiding citizen with only the best of intentions who uses deadly force and made an honest, good faith mistake can not only be made to defend himself against an investigation and civil suit -- he can be prosecuted criminally!

Some states / jurisdictions have made a policy choice that in shorthand is essentially "using deadly force is so serious a matter that we want to discourage it in all possible circumstances that don't truly require it, and one way to discourage it is to shift all risk of even a good faith misunderstanding to the person who elects to use deadly force."

The MO statute that jlrhiner posted appears to do that with respect to a private person attempting to make an arrest -- the individual must reasonably believe certain circumstances were true . . . AND the circumstances have to be actually true!

Classic cautionary tale used to illustrate the point: citizen walking along a sidewalk passes across the end of an alleyway and sees down the alley a woman struggling / grappling with an unsavory looking guy. She screams "Help, he has a gun, he's trying to kidnap me!" Citizen draws a firearm and aims at the unsavory guy and orders him to stop what he's doing. Much additional chaos ensues for a bit . . . and at the end of the encounter citizen is cuffed and taken for booking on a variety of charges for drawing a firearm and pointing it at an undercover cop making a legitimate arrest. In some jurisdictions this citizen is really, really screwed, notwithstanding the fact that he was operating under misinformation and with good intentions.

Again I'll plug Branca's book, or Ayoob's earlier work "In the Gravest Extreme." Branca got started in self-defense law (in his own explanation) after taking Ayoob's LFI course and Ayoob wrote the foreward to the 3rd edition of Branca's book I linked to above. There are some pretty fascinating nuances around self-defense law and I think it worthwhile for anyone who owns a firearm that might be used in a SD situation to understand not just the peril they might be in in a situation calling for the use of force, but the peril they might be in immediately following a decision to use force in self-defense.
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  #125  
Old 07-30-2017, 10:38 PM
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I'm so tainted by the internet I just presume everything is someone pulling a prank trying to get on youtube.

If I saw that guy I would think he was being way to polite to be an escape convict. Escapee's don't ask for a ride, they just punch you and take your car.
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  #126  
Old 07-31-2017, 12:11 AM
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Uh...just how the heck were we supposed to know that?
Remember what I was specifically responding to

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Being an "inmate" from a "state prison" takes him out of any reasonable protection guaranteed by law.
The guy wasn't an inmate regardless of what things looked like the guy wasn't an inmate.

So if you shoot the guy even if it's ruled 100% justified you still killed someone who didn't need to be killed.

Do you really want to live with that?
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
True. But you helped make my point. We just don't know. Which doesn't give us the legal or moral right to pull a gun.
Absolute knowledge isn't the standard in Tennessee, and is why law is written like the below...

"The person has a reasonable belief..."

"Honestly believed to be real at the time..."

It would be reasonable for a person to honestly believe a man dressed in prison garb and handcuffed to be an escaped convict, and to reasonably and honestly be in fear of great bodily harm by an escaped convict running at them.

The idea that a reasonable person should assume it's just someone practicing for Halloween in July... uh no...
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  #128  
Old 07-31-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Absolute knowledge isn't the standard in Tennessee, and is why law is written like the below...

"The person has a reasonable belief..."

"Honestly believed to be real at the time..."

It would be reasonable for a person to honestly believe a man dressed in prison garb and handcuffed to be an escaped convict, and to reasonably and honestly be in fear of great bodily harm by an escaped convict running at them.

The idea that a reasonable person should assume it's just someone practicing for Halloween in July... uh no...
Understood. But my point all along is that not everyone interprets or even enforces the law same the way that we may understand it. You may think your actions are legal until you're in the court room. Black and white isn't always black and white in other peoples eyes.
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  #129  
Old 07-31-2017, 09:59 AM
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ChattanoogaPhil ChattanoogaPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Understood. But my point all along is that not everyone interprets or even enforces the law same the way that we may understand it. You may think your actions are legal until you're in the court room. Black and white isn't always black and white in other peoples eyes.
Of course it's not black and white absolutes... that's why the word reasonable is used in law when it comes to these type of things.

I'm sure you saw the still pic from the vid I posted earlier. A man who is clearly identifiable as a escaped convict is running up on the man in the dark red shirt. If he pulled his gun at that moment I would find that reasonable, you?

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Old 07-31-2017, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
The guy wasn't an inmate regardless of what things looked like the guy wasn't an inmate.

So if you shoot the guy even if it's ruled 100% justified you still killed someone who didn't need to be killed.

Do you really want to live with that?
How do you know he didn't need to be killed? I don't know, and would act accordingly.

But if somehow there did occur a killing ruled 100% justified, I would live with it. I would not want to live with it, but I would manage to, and I would not blame myself. Neither should you. The guy in the prison wear would be 100% responsible for the situation he intentionally created. The only people who would share any blame would be those who helped to teach him that he could get away with doing such stupid stuff.

Now go play in traffic.
  #131  
Old 07-31-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
Remember what I was specifically responding to



The guy wasn't an inmate regardless of what things looked like the guy wasn't an inmate.

So if you shoot the guy even if it's ruled 100% justified you still killed someone who didn't need to be killed.

Do you really want to live with that?

Just for the record, Smoke, I don't value your life anymore than you do. Now, thats not directed straight at you. Thats a general feeling about everyone. If you are willing to forfeit your life for a prank you get what you deserve.

And regardless of all the emotion, I would draw my CCW and place him at gunpoint until a LEO arrives. I would prevent him from leaving my presence until a Law Enforcement Officer said he was free to leave.

Earlier in the thread Muss said he thought an "elbow to the face" was appropriate. So what happens if that is ineffective. Or allows the nimrod to get closer and more aggressive? Is that less of a penalty than placing him at gunpoint?

You folks go ahead and hash this out. I've been carrying a firearm concealed for >35 years. I've never been arrested, (well, not in the USA. There was this one time in Mexico.....nevermind) discovered, or caused serious social problems. I have had the occasion to draw my firearm twice. I think I'm pretty levelheaded and very good at threat assessment. The actions of the nimrod in the OP's post would have governed my response. I would have drawn my CCW. I would have held him at gunpoint. I would have shot his worthless butt if he attempted to flee.

He was playing a game. I'm not. His actions are just as important as mine.
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  #132  
Old 07-31-2017, 12:28 PM
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We've about covered it, ya think?
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