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Old 07-26-2017, 07:40 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
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Default Would you draw your weapon?

Some bozo showed up at a local convenience store dressed in an orange jumpsuit marked inmate on the front and state penitentiary on the back, wearing jail flip-flops, and hand-cuffs, pretending to be an escaped inmate. He was hassling people for a ride. It ended up being a stupid YouTube stunt.

A unarmed customer was concerned for the safety of his 8 year old son. The customer put his son behind the counter in the store, went out bladed the bozo, put his hand on his hip like he had a gun (dangerous) and ordered him to the ground. The bozo complied. Others called 911.

Besides the bozo being lucky he didn't get shot or tazed, what's your opinion? If you were there as a civilian CHP, would you draw your weapon to hold someone that appeared to be an escaped convict?

Man's attempt at “YouTube stardom” falls flat
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:42 PM
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I would hope I would not have.
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:44 PM
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The population would be better off without those folks from the shallow end of the gene pool being allowed out in public without a leash or muzzle.
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:52 PM
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In PA drawing on a person who is not presenting a deadly weapon is a crime. The actor was hand cuffed. It would be hard to explain why you had to draw on a handcuffed man. So, no I would not draw in that situation. However, I would make sure he knew I had a gun because the psychological stop is better than shooting a person.
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:59 PM
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What a bone head stunt! I doubt I'd get involved beyond calling 911 and keeping an eye on him.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:02 PM
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Wouldn't draw unless I thought he was an immediate threat to me or mine.

I'd definitely get space between me and him and get my kids behind me...moving away from the stupidity.

Calling the pros is the only answer here, I'm not trained, willing or paid to hold convicts at gunpoint until their ride home gets there.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:08 PM
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I would not of drawn my gun unless a threatening gesture was made at me or my family like trying to grab one of us or brandish any sort or weapon. Words alone are not enough. My first inclination would be to exit the store and call police and let them deal with the idiot.

If the customer felt threatened you would hope the convenience store employee would of either called the police or hit the panic button.

Some people are just stupid. It's that simple.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:15 PM
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I'd just leave the store. And call 911. I pocket carry and one of the advantages of that mode of carry is you can put your hand in your pocket and grip the gun without drawing and exposing it.

But if he didn't have a weapon and didn't act like a threat, then all I'd do is leave. ASAP.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:15 PM
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Call 911, observe, be ready to respond if necessary.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:22 PM
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Someone being a bone-head is not legally reason enough (in my area) to draw a weapon on them. Now, if the bone-head presents a threat to life or limb, the scales balance differently.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:24 PM
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Maybe a group could have had him do some "bobbing for french fries" in the deep fryer.................
Ya can't fix stupid.............
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:26 PM
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I would have left
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:30 PM
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There are so many "what if's" to this scenario it is scary. What are the legal constraints on citizens arrest in the jurisdiction? In this country it is only for offences punishable by 2 years or more prison time by day(5am-9pm) and for any offence punishable by prison by night.
(The remaining 8 hours of the day).

What fears for his own or others safety did the member of public have? As said in the report not long ago an escaped inmate from the nearby prison killed a guard in his escape.

Handcuffs in front are a potential weapon. Handcuffs behind the back not so much.

Our department recently enacted an official policy. If there is no threat to life it is better for an off duty officer to stand back, watch, if possible take some notes, and report instead of intervening. It came after several off duty incidents usually where alcohol had been consumed that resulted in public embarrassment to the department (off duty cop who had been drinking pulled a cyclist running a red light during a pedestrian phase off his bike causing a fracture. Another off duty cop in a sole charge station had been at the 19th hole of the golf club for several hours on a day off when told of a vehicle crash on a notorious stretch of highway. Because he carried first responders kit, including oxygen, in his patrol car he attended and ended up being breath tested and found over alcohol limits etc).

But at the end of the day people will continue to be stupid and not think of the consequences.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:35 PM
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I would elbow him across the jaw, and then sue YouTube for the rights. People need to relax . . .

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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Some bozo showed up at a local convenience store dressed in an orange jumpsuit marked inmate on the front and state penitentiary on the back, wearing jail flip-flops, and hand-cuffs, pretending to be an escaped inmate. He was hassling people for a ride. It ended up being a stupid YouTube stunt.

A unarmed customer was concerned for the safety of his 8 year old son. The customer put his son behind the counter in the store, went out bladed the bozo, put his hand on his hip like he had a gun (dangerous) and ordered him to the ground. The bozo complied. Others called 911.

Besides the bozo being lucky he didn't get shot or tazed, what's your opinion? If you were there as a civilian CHP, would you draw your weapon to hold someone that appeared to be an escaped convict?

Man's attempt at “YouTube stardom” falls flat
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:40 PM
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Default FROM THE ARMCHAIR NO!

However if a can of soup or the like had "mysteriously" jumped off the shelf & beaned the idiot & his photographer, BONUS. Too bad Nolan Ryan wasn't in the store.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:07 PM
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No. I'm not in the business of apprehending fugitives. Also, there aren't really any unarmed people that make me fear serious bodily injury or death. But, if he had invaded my personal space in a threatening manner he might have gotten knocked out.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:13 PM
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I Would have done like Elvis -
I would have left the building.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:25 PM
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I would have left, while maintain distance from him. Had he been foolish enough to invade my space despite my best efforts, that would have been a game changer.

Curious as to what law enforcement did when they arrived.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
I would have left, while maintain distance from him. Had he been foolish enough to invade my space despite my best efforts, that would have been a game changer.

Curious as to what law enforcement did when they arrived.
Figured out who he was and what he was doing, ticketed him for disturbing the peace, and turned him lose.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:34 PM
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The folks in the C-store should sue him and photog for "mental anguish", etc., etc. - Hit them where it hurts - in the wallet!
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:42 PM
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Cops needed to take him to the station and hold him for the maximum allowable time (24 or 48 hours) to make sure he wasn't "escaped" from out of state. Put him in the cell with bubba overnight might cool him down some on his pranks.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:43 PM
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Only if I believed that he was an immediate threat to me or mine and that is a call that has to be in each situation.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:27 PM
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I would have called 911 and watched the situation before the cops came. Had it turned with him doing something to someone before the cops got there, well i would have deemed that an immediate threat and probably drawn.
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:33 AM
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Default A resounding NO...

...because my first thought in addressing a potential problem is NEVER 'draw a weapon.'

Moreover, my use of a gun is part of a continuum of force and NEVER the first option now in my 'armed citizen' life.

Be safe.
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:50 AM
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Thanks all for your input. If I was in the store and he was outside, I would call 911 and "wait and see" how it developed. If I was at the pumps and he started coming into my space, I would have been more assertive to get him to back away.

Like the article touched on, I suspect the guy was trying to get a reaction from the people at the pumps by imitating the escapee that murdered a deputy and wounded another in May this year. After attacking the deputies and crashing the sheriffs transport van, the escapee took off with the murdered deputies pistol attempting to car jack a car, with his hands still cuffed in front of him. The escapee shot one civillian in the neck in an unsuccessful carjacking attempt before he was able to get a car. He was caught after a car chase.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:17 AM
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No but as many have typed call 911 and keep eyes on him
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
I would elbow him across the jaw, and then sue YouTube for the rights. People need to relax . . .
And go to jail for assault. That wouldn't look too good on your resume.

I would have been looking for one of his buddies to show up. And once I realized he was alone and handcuffed, I would have called him colorful names.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:24 AM
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In NC if you did draw your weapon in this situation you "COULD" be in violation of the brandishing statue......Unless this individual showed signs of present danger to others I like others would not show a weapon.

Realizing that stupid stunts like this can get innocent people hurt these people should probably be removed from the gene pool legally.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:28 AM
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And go to jail for assault. That wouldn't look too good on your resume.

I would have been looking for one of his buddies to show up. And once I realized he was alone and handcuffed, I would have called him colorful names.
Yep, and if he is handcuffed and showing no weapon, grab him and sit on him until LEO arrives or if the YouTube video idiot shows up first grab him and stick his face in the ice cream box.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:28 AM
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And go to jail for assault. That wouldn't look too good on your resume.

I would have been looking for one of his buddies to show up. And once I realized he was alone and handcuffed, I would have called him colorful names.
A: "You mean he's not an escapee? My bad . . . "

B: You oughta see my resume . . .
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:04 AM
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No threat, no justifiable reason to use (or even imply the use of) deadly force. Call 911 and withdraw, preferably at the same time.

Glad the prankster didn't wind up dead.
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:10 AM
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[QUOTE=Muss Muggins;139683210]A: "You mean he's not an escapee? My bad . . . "

I can see it now, "Oh I'm sorry. I didn't see you there. Here let me help you off the floor".
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
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Yep, and if he is handcuffed and showing no weapon, grab him and sit on him until LEO arrives or if the YouTube video idiot shows up first grab him and stick his face in the ice cream box.
You can touch him if you want but i'm not going to. Hard to watch my back with my hands full of dumb ***.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:29 AM
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Unarmed, handcuffed and posing no real threat not a chance I'm drawing my weapon. I don't want to lose my CCW and or land in jail.

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Old 07-27-2017, 10:37 AM
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Easy. Get outside in your car immediately.Lock your doors.
Pull out your phone and call 911 if you don't know your "local PD" phone #.
Stay there until the police arrive.
Tell them in person just what you saw inside.
If this perp comes outside before the Police arrive, get the car license, description of the car the perp got into.
Tell the arriving police what you saw.
Stay there until the police say you can leave.
You may have to give the police a formal report if the perp is cuffed and arrested.
This IS your civic duty to keep the perps off the streets.
You would be surprised just how many citizens do not want to be involved in anything.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneounceload View Post
The folks in the C-store should sue him and photog for "mental anguish", etc., etc. - Hit them where it hurts - in the wallet!
It's 2017,Nobody cares about "Mental anguish" or "pain and suffering" anymore.You can only win cases based on BS when the Money is flowing.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
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The folks in the C-store should sue him and photog for "mental anguish", etc., etc. - Hit them where it hurts - in the wallet!
The only problem with that is that the courts don't do collections. You might get a judgement against the guy but good luck getting him to actually pay it.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:53 AM
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In Texas and a number of states one could just transition from
concealed carry to open carry, and then say, by the way I am calling the cops.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:55 AM
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You would be surprised just how many citizens do not want to be involved in anything.
No, I wouldn't be surprised at all
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
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In Texas and a number of states one could just transition from
concealed carry to open carry, and then say, by the way I am calling the cops.
Not a bad idea, that would be completely legal here in Missouri as long as you have a CCW. Even though we have Constitutional carry here now you still need a CCW to go open carry in some places.
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:26 PM
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After seeing this individual interviewed on camera it is my opinion that he is a danger to himself and others, is mentally unbalanced, and should be under enforced observation/assessment for a minimum of 72 hours.
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:28 PM
Inusuit Inusuit is offline
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No, don't see this as a threat. Keep an eye on him and finish my business in the store.
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:41 PM
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No, don't see this as a threat. Keep an eye on him and finish my business in the store.
Just spitballin' here, but at what point do you decide that a person wearing orange jail scrubs and handcuffs asking for a ride is maybe a threat?
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:09 PM
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Exactly. What if he really WAS an escaped convict, possibly a violent one?
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:34 PM
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Exactly. What if he really WAS an escaped convict, possibly a violent one?
He's violence is somewhat limited in cuffs.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:44 PM
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I always thought that the only reason to pull a gun was in cases of imminent danger. In those instances I would expect to be pulling the trigger, not threatening. This instance would not qualify, in my mind.
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:12 PM
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He's violence is somewhat limited in cuffs.
There is a rather famous court case in my country where a prisoner being transported with cuffs to the front (as can be clearly seen in the video) bludgeoned a fellow inmate he didn't like to death with the cuffs.

Handcuffs applied where movement is not restricted as much as physically possible are a weapon with the potential to cause death. I personally know two cops who on different occasions
ignored a supervisors directive to leave a violent prisoner in cuffs in the cell under constant monitoring because they wanted to be elsewhere (in the mealroom grabbing a coffee). Both were seriously assaulted when they went into the cell to try and remove the cuffs. One never returned to duty.
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by murphydog View Post
No threat, no justifiable reason to use (or even imply the use of) deadly force. Call 911 and withdraw, preferably at the same time.

Glad the prankster didn't wind up dead.
Not so sure about "justifiable reason." Whatever weird situation ensued, it would be primarily the creation of the idiot who was dressed funny. He bears full responsibility for the results, since he intentionally created the situation. If he did it because he's stupid or crazy, his keeper might be partly responsible, assuming (unreasonably) that there was one assigned.

As a general rule, I, too, would be glad that he didn't end up dead. But if he did, could you imagine some scenarios deadly for others that might not occur? I haven't yet, but somebody will.

I do agree with your prescription for action, except that withdrawal comes before 911, and I doubt that you can perform both optimally at the same time.

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Old 07-28-2017, 01:56 PM
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Dumb, very dumb, but not a threat. I doubt charges will go far if he decides to fight them, what he did falls under the 1A.
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:21 PM
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What someone is wearing does not make them a threat. How they act is what makes them a threat.

There are only three reasons the gun leaves the holster:
  1. To deal with a potentially life threatening threat.
  2. To practice at the range.
  3. To put away or do maintenance while at home.
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