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Old 08-17-2017, 08:15 PM
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Default The question has been asked . . .

. . . about what we call 'cocked and locked' carry of the 1911 and which Jeff Cooper labelled Condition One. In another post (A New Paradigm) it came up that not everyone is familiar with the history of this pistol has been carried, historically, and the timeline.

Rather than blur that thread, I've started a new one (p.s., everyone who has posted over there has been very nice :-) ).

The history of holsters (I've labelled it 'holstory') is as old as revolving pistols. That's because until then, with only a single shot they were left with the horse; once fired they became clubs. The cartridge pistol increased the need that holsters filled -- and very shortly after made the auto pistol possible.

The holstory of auto pistol holster therefore evolved differently: they began to find acceptance with WW1 and we got our 1911 as a result. To carry it: what is known as the M1916 holster. The 1911 was approved to be carried in the holster in Condition Three, not least because even today a pistol is not issued to everyone, and it is a PDW (personal defence weapon) not a primary assault piece.

So: 1908 brought us the Luger, 1911 brought us the Government Model, 1938 brought us the P38, 1950-ish brought us the M39. This matters because in 1970, when I joined the Bianchi Holster company, these were the only locked blowback pistols to make holsters for (admitting that on very rare occasions we would make one for the old Mausers). No SIGS, no Glocks, not even M59s.

The best known, and one of the few, to authorise the carry of the 1911 was the Texas Rangers, because of the ability of the Super .38 to penetrate car bodies. The 38/44 loading for revolvers was introduced for the same reason, quickly supplanted by the 357 Magnum.

Really, then, holster makers until 1970 derived the bulk of their sales from revolver holsters. And the 1911 was not carried in Condition One. Here's a bit of a pictorial timeline:

The question has been asked . . .-36-heiser-1943-5-jpg 1943 Heiser

The question has been asked . . .-64-jpeg-13-jpg 1964 Bianchi

The question has been asked . . .-1969-2-jpg 1969 Seventrees

The question has been asked . . .-00000033-jpg 1979 Galco

All are Condition Three, as are every other auto holster (aren't many) in these catalogues.

Of special note, as an affirmation of the paradigm that autos were carried in Condition Three, is the Bianchi (second image): draw in Condition Three and rack the slide to load a round.

The first Condition One image that I have, appears in a Bianchi catalogue of 1971; it is unfortunately a .tiff format and won't upload to the forum, and the computer I use to convert .tiff to .jpeg is down.

I've a copy of an old Cooper article from the '60s, in which he's arguing towards police departments taking Condition One seriously. it just wasn't done then. Easy to find an exception or two. But that's all.

Condition One in holsters was directly derived from what was once called "combat shooting", which the PC lot renamed "action shooting". And that began with Cooper and Big Bear, which was the transition from the fast-draw SAA craze of the 1950s using blanks, to live ammo with 1911s. Same holster makers, too: Anderson and Alfonso. And it was the Bianchi Cup of 1979 that validated this style.

But remember: despite a tournament's competitors using 1911s in major calibers, they are NOT permitted to be loaded at all, until the competitor is on the firing line and the range master has given the command to load; and then unloaded. It is NOT the same as carrying IWB at Walmart. And competition generally begins from the standing position.

Yet something bad happened: the carrying of pistols the way they are carried (empty) on pistol ranges 'bled' over to the street. And to being seated while carrying that way. And to dispensing with a safety strap. All of which has a reasonable chance of succeeding with proper training.

But not, which was the point of my "new paradigm" post, with striker fired pistols. The strap was not just for retention on 1911s and on DA revolvers: they blocked hammer movement, which prevented cycling to fire. WE HOLSTER MAKERS CANNOT PREVENT A STRIKER FIRED PISTOL FROM FIRING WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED.

It is not the same problem, but it is being TREATED as the same problem, as carrying a 1911 in Condition One. Instead it is like carrying a DA or SA revolver already cocked.
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:33 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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I've still got a model 55* Safariland duty holster & belt I bought in 1969 or early 1970. The thumb break safety strap passed between cocked hammer & slide rear as an additional safety barrier. It did have the unfortunate tendency over time to work the thumb safety off when you wiggled around on the seat. It became habit to slide a thumb in the verify safety position while exiting the car.

*Muzzle forward raked 1911 holster.

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Old 08-20-2017, 03:43 PM
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When I carried a C&L'ed 1911 in the early 80s it was only with a thumb break that placed it's strap between the cocked hammer and slide.............pretty sure it was a Bianchi 19L (?)
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:08 PM
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I started this particular thread, because on my 'new paradigm' post it was alleged that Condition One carry did not begin with Cooper and/or the late '60s. I was mighty surprised to discover that there could be anyone today who didn't know better. Here are a few more pics of the state of the art as it evolved into the late '60s:

The question has been asked . . .-1-anderson-1969-7-jpg 1969 Andy Anderson

The question has been asked . . .-1960-gaylord-20-jpg 1960 Chic Gaylord

The question has been asked . . .-1967-9-jpg 1967 Bianchi

The question has been asked . . .-davis-83-3-jpg 1983 Gordon Davis

The question has been asked . . .-1968-safariland-cat-8-jpg 1968 Safariland

Note that all 1911s are Condition Three except the Cooper Combat.

Notice, too, the crediting of Jeff Cooper in the Bianchi catalogue's description of the famous Model 45 "Cooper Combat"; the 'fly-off' strap is credited to Eldon Carl. It wasn't long ago that Cooper's personal Model 45 was auctioned off (I've a picture of it somewhere).
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
But not, which was the point of my "new paradigm" post, with striker fired pistols. The strap was not just for retention on 1911s and on DA revolvers: they blocked hammer movement, which prevented cycling to fire. WE HOLSTER MAKERS CANNOT PREVENT A STRIKER FIRED PISTOL FROM FIRING WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED.

It is not the same problem, but it is being TREATED as the same problem, as carrying a 1911 in Condition One. Instead it is like carrying a DA or SA revolver already cocked.
So you, recognizing that striker fired pistols can and have been modified for service by significantly increasing the trigger pull weight, don't make holsters for these S&W revolver models either, because you can't prevent them from being fired: 38, 40, 42, 49, etc. . . . ?
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:39 AM
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Muss M I think all Red is saying is that Condition 1/Cocked & locked carry was the exception rather than the rule until well into the 60s or 70s.

As a guy on the upper side of 60 who's father was a police officer and competitive pistol shooter in the 50s through the 70s...IIRC......revolvers ruled both on the street and on the range well into the 70s......Dad got a Model 41 in the early 60s to shoot rimfire..... but most still shot the Model 17........ Colt 1911s all had to be rebuilt at big bucks (for the day) for the range..... so most stuck to the Model 14 or 19 with a 6" barrel.

Gold Cups were the exception but were $$$$s and only seen on the range in the hands of .... LOL... Doctors and Lawyers...

When I was growing up auto's were more curios.....or guns carried by the bad guys in movies..... not in the main stream.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:27 AM
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I must admit this brings back a lot of memories and one of them was Col.Coopers warning that condition 1 is for trained professionals or citizens who are willing to be trained and practice until they are proficient .Now what Jeff Cooper would consider " proficient" and what the average person considers the same is probabaly way different . My dad carried a 45 auto in the military and competed some in local matches with one but he carried a DA revolver as a police officer for 30 years and off duty even after retirement he only carried DA revolvers . I asked him why once after reading one of the Cols. articles he never carried his 45 out and about in condition 1 .He smiled and said son I ain't Jeff Cooper and most of us never will be but I have drawn and fired many rounds on the range from condition 1 when we were deciding whether to use it on our police force .He said in 500 rounds from condition 1 at speed he had twice unintentionally fired before his fron sight was actually on target ,in testing they found most officers would fire at least 1 unintentional round in 50 .On the street that could be tragic to say the least so they decided against it .That was along time ago and things have changed but I carry a DA revolver only because I am at least smart enough to know that I am not Jeff Cooper ,I hope the Col. is smiling because his writing may have saved me from myself as I was high on fast draw what we called " combat shooting" in 1977,1978,1979 I never won a match but then again I never shot myself accidently either .Honestly most of the officers back then carried revolvers a few carried small DA/ SA autos as backups or off duty but like I said things have changed and holster making te hnology will catch up with gun making technology probabaly faster than I can catch up with putting my ( many times ) crazy old man thoughts into this technology .

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Old 08-21-2017, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
So you, recognizing that striker fired pistols can and have been modified for service by significantly increasing the trigger pull weight, don't make holsters for these S&W revolver models either, because you can't prevent them from being fired: 38, 40, 42, 49, etc. . . . ?
Muss, I think I'm going to have to head over to my other threads and make this point: you appear to be looking for my posts because you are an AIWB fan and you know that I am against it; and then you make argumentative, nonsensical posts that you imagine are 'responsive'. To wit:

I don't make holsters for the small frame Smiths because I haven't yet worked up a pattern. I did work up one for a Dick Special for a very long-time customer because I felt he deserved it as a 'thank you', and it was a real pain but he is worth it. But frankly I remain to be convinced that my current design is adaptable to revolvers. The irony is that the ones I've made so far -- one each for Ruger and Smith "L" frames -- WORK really well but I just don't like the looks of them. My armourer really likes his.

With pistols that have hammers, such as 1911s and DA autos and DA revolvers and SA revolvers, holster makers CAN provide a method to absolutely prevent them from firing in the holster -- if the buyer chooses to have a strap. On the holsters I make, which are made (1) strapless with adjustable resistance to draw (2) hammer and rear sight guard, ditto (3) ThumRake (tm) that includes hammer and rear sight guard, ditto -- these options are NO CHARGE. So my customers can select them, and any/every other option including kangaroo leather lining, which costs me more money, without a cost penalty.

And no, Muss, I'm not 'shouting' in the old parlance when I use all caps, necessarily. I suppose I could instead, underline the lines I want to emphasise, if that would make you happy. But making you happy is not my role.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:32 PM
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With a covered trigger guard, exactly how is a handgun going to get it's trigger pulled in the holster? OK, some idiot not removing their finger from the trigger while holstering, but that's not really in the holster.

Early holsters were leather gun buckets, often with lids. SFAIK, exposed trigger guards started around the Threepersons rig (1920's-1930's). By the 1960s, most trigger guards were again covered in the designs by major manufacturers, with the exception of the Threepersons style.

Now I can certainly appreciate the CYA approach as holster makers have no control over the amount of training, care and common sense of all customers. Back when I smithed, I got a number of moans & groans over my refusal to reduce 1911 triggers below 4 lbs (unless I knew your skill level well by personal observation-but I still wouldn't go below about 3 1/4 lbs.).
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:49 PM
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The Internet has been a round for quite some time now. All caps is always considered to be shouting. It is a great way to emphasize your words but the protocol is that all caps is shouting. Underlining or using colors or italics or bold fonts are alternatives to shouting.

Having cleared that up I think I can clear up the issue of Condition 1 versus Condition 3 historically. Rednichols will agree with me.

Gamesmanship and/or simply high/intense levels of training allow one to carry a 1911 cocked and locked. If you are not Jeff Cooper, or Doug Koenig or Robbie Leatham, well, we hope you train as hard as those folks.

Some time ago I was watching a World War 2 film taken by an embedded newsman. It showed an American infantry company fighting in the Pacific. The officer in charge of the company pulls his pistol, racks the slide to get the gun into action, and commences firing. Clearly, the gun was carried in Condition 3. You can wager that a young American Army officer in the 1940s was not skilled enough to carry his weapon cocked and locked nor was he authorized to do so. Moreover, as I did some time in the Army in the Vietnam Era, our officers back then were not authorized to carry their pistols cocked and locked, either. They were lucky if they were allowed to carry them with a loaded magazine (I am not speaking about Soldiers in country - that might be a different proposition - I am speaking about American Army officers I knew in America in the late 1960s and early 1970s).

The holsters had flaps. We have all seen them. That is not a holster designed for Condition 1.

Thanks for the history lesson Red!
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Old 08-22-2017, 06:21 PM
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Google Books shows the earliest print reference to the phrase "cocked and locked" (Condition One) regarding the 1911 to be found in the May 12, 1917 issue of the American Rifleman (Arms and the Man) wherein the Army's Calvary Journal is quoted relaying the manual of arms for the "Army Automatic" (Model of 1911). This instruction applies specifically to calvary troops only.

American Rifleman - Google Books
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:14 PM
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During the years I worked around law enforcement revolvers were the rule. A few officers had semis for off duty or backup carry, but the standard duty weapon was still a Model 15 or maybe a 66 for .357.

I recall once when a team of Texas Rangers came to OKC working on a murder case and how odd is looked to see them carrying holstered 1911s with hammer straps between the firing pin and hammer.

Times do change.
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Old 08-23-2017, 08:49 PM
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Well, this is certainly mortifying.

Looking in a box for something else, I rediscovered this picture of GI's clowning at the end of WWII.
Top center is my father, channeling Dillinger in a vest and straw boater, with a .45 stuck in his pants.

Hammer down and the appendage position.
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:10 PM
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When I was a wee lad growing up south of Houston my dad and two of his brothers were police officers, all carried 1911's in condition 1. My dad also had a Texas Ranger for a friend and he carried 2 1911's in condition 1. Pop left the police force after 10 years and both his brothers retired after 30 years each.... they carried their 1911's till they died and now one of my cousins carries his father's old Commander every day as a Harris County Deputy Sherriff and has done so for almost 30 years... in Condition 1. I have carried either a Gov. Mdl or Commander sized 1911 for over 30 years... in Condition 1 cocked & locked. I switched to Smith revolvers a few+....years ago, that is another story for another time.
In all that time with the 1911 in my family there was never an accidental discharge and one of my uncles had his grip safety pinned the whole time.
Carry what you will, how you will..... just carry. Ya jest never know....
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
With a covered trigger guard, exactly how is a handgun going to get it's trigger pulled in the holster? OK, some idiot not removing their finger from the trigger while holstering, but that's not really in the holster.

Early holsters were leather gun buckets, often with lids. SFAIK, exposed trigger guards started around the Threepersons rig (1920's-1930's). By the 1960s, most trigger guards were again covered in the designs by major manufacturers, with the exception of the Threepersons style.

Now I can certainly appreciate the CYA approach as holster makers have no control over the amount of training, care and common sense of all customers. Back when I smithed, I got a number of moans & groans over my refusal to reduce 1911 triggers below 4 lbs (unless I knew your skill level well by personal observation-but I still wouldn't go below about 3 1/4 lbs.).
All good. I am, however, the pre-eminent Tom Threepersons Style Holster expert (I own his personal holster of 1916, made in Douglas AZ) and can bore you to death with what a T3P holster really is :-) My resources list is more than 300 line items, of which John Bianchi's 'Blue Steel & Gunleather' entry is entirely wrong!

Indeed, though his holster predated the 1930s when Tom endorsed Sam Myres' version (we believe developed for Sam by Arno Brill), after Sam took it up it was widely copied, first by Heiser and then every other maker including Lawrence.

It's not a Threepersons Style holster, just because it's for a revolver and has its trigger exposed :-).
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:59 PM
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Looking for something else whilst researching and writing The Book (my Galco file, actually) I did stumble across the early one of Jeff's writings that I mentioned on this, or another thread.

It appeared in the May 1966 issue of Guns & Ammo, is titled 'The 45 Auto -- New Arm of the Law', and mentions 'sidekicks' Ray Chapman and Thell Reed as helping with the demos for local P.D.s. Hopefully Thell is still with us, but the others have passed on, that's how much time has passed.

The prologue informs, quoting Chief French of Los Alamitos P.D.:

" Each man has a choice of one of two options. He may carry the weapon cocked and locked, or he may carry it with the hammer fully down on a loaded chamber".
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:19 AM
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Red, I believe Thell Reed is still alive and perhaps still assisting/advising film crews in Hollywood.

This reminds me of a great book I recently picked up titled Fast Draw...Yesterday Today by Tom Blasgen. It's actually more like a scrapbook, 600+ pages comprising a compilation of pretty much every old magazine article ever printed on the topic of fast draw. Everything and everyone ever involved in that scene is covered and there's particularly a lot of material covering holster makers from that era- the Big 3, of course, Ojala, Anderson and Alfonso, but also the guys who came later- Ted Blocker, Ernie Hill, Mernickle, etc. Just tons of material. You need to get this book if you don't yet have it.

I can't find any online links to the book aside from the eBay auction I won, but it's definitely worth seeking out: FAST DRAW YESTERDAY TODAY TOM BLASGEN SIGNED BOOK OLD COWBOY GUN PISTOL COLT | eBay
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:49 PM
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It is not the same problem, but it is being TREATED as the same problem, as carrying a 1911 in Condition One. Instead it is like carrying a DA or SA revolver already cocked.
Yes, I would call carrying a modern striker fired gun with a round in the chamber the same as carrying a 1911 in condition 0; full mag inserted, round chambered, hammer cocked and safety off.


Just a note: The picture posted by SG-688 is not appendix carry (certainly not "appendage" carry ). That is what I'd call belly carry and I would not recommend it even in C2 or C3.
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:08 AM
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In the Military (of yesteryear) "Condition 3" was the mode of carry. However some guys (Jimmy) carried "Condition 1" This was done (Condition 3 to Condition 1) after relief and again right before my relief was due to arrive (Condition 1 back to Condition 3).
I knew MPs that could draw halfway from the holster, turn the M1911 side ways, push down on the weapon thus chambering a round and thus the weapon was in Condition 1 when the weapon cleared the holster.

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Old 08-27-2017, 05:37 PM
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Yes, I would call carrying a modern striker fired gun with a round in the chamber the same as carrying a 1911 in condition 0; full mag inserted, round chambered, hammer cocked and safety off.
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Old 08-28-2017, 12:58 AM
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I figured someone would say that; it's not. The comparison is apt and appropriate. They are indeed similar and if we're talking about a Series 80 1911, exactly the same.
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:03 AM
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Seriously, if you're not comfortable with them, that's fine. But a lot of us are, and have been successfully not shooting ourselves for years. Get off the crusade. I think the .380 is dumb, but you don't see me writing threads about it.

And c'mon, m8...if you really think that a single-action 1911 trigger is even remotely like an average striker-fired trigger, there is something horribly wrong with your 1911.

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Old 08-28-2017, 01:07 AM
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I figured someone would say that; it's not. The comparison is apt and appropriate. They are indeed similar and if we're talking about a Series 80 1911, exactly the same.
And that's the reason my Springfield XD 45 ACP is in a draw and not been fired in years....
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:23 AM
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What exactly makes you afraid of the XD? Why haven't you sold it off if it's so worrisome?
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:58 PM
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Seriously, if you're not comfortable with them, that's fine. But a lot of us are, and have been successfully not shooting ourselves for years. Get off the crusade. I think the .380 is dumb, but you don't see me writing threads about it.

And c'mon, m8...if you really think that a single-action 1911 trigger is even remotely like an average striker-fired trigger, there is something horribly wrong with your 1911.
It's easy to lose track of an OP's post, when replies begin to address off-thread leanings. The situation: thinking that covering the guard makes a Glock equally safe as a 1911.

Case in point. Ok, several. El Paso Saddlery sells their copy of John Bianchi's old Model 2, erroneously referred to as a Threepersons; here's a pic.

The question has been asked . . .-elpasosaddlery_1920_tom3-jpg

The image, of a Colt 1911 in Condition One with a safety strap blocking the hammer (at least nominally; might try dropping the hammer to see if it doesn't instead get pushed off the back of the slide by the falling hammer).

It's accompanied by this language:

"Exposed trigger guard (certain semi-automatics will have covered trigger, ie. Glocks and Sigs)"

This shows us, that holster makers believe, that covering the guard of a Glock makes it as safe as a 1911 in Condition One with an uncovered guard. Ipso facto.

It's what my thread(s) are about. Not if someone is 'comfortable' or 'did it 30 years and not dead' (the dead aren't posting, by definition). These threads are about holster makers believing that they can add back the safety (I mean the concept, not the gadget itself), that the pistol maker left out. And that 'safety', was on all pistols made, including striker pistols, before the Glock.

And by extension, users believing that a covered guard on a striker pistol, replaces the 'feedback' that all other pistols give during holstering: hammer moves on them, not on a striker pistol.

Regarding the pistol in Wise A's post, we realise by now (it has come up several times already) that the little 'blade' in the trigger is not a safety, right? It keeps the trigger from shifting when the pistol is dropped (one reason why SIG is in so much strife for lack of this blade), but it's not there to keep the trigger from being pulled.
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:12 PM
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It also prevents the trigger from moving from pressure exerted on the side. In other words, in order to deactivate a trigger safety, you have to get something either threaded through the trigger guard (what are you doing??), or have a stiff object wedge itself in between the gun and trigger, and around the front face of the trigger.

That's why you're taught to "look" a gun into the holster, and to holster slowly. By the by, if you're jamming your 1911 or DAO pistol into the holster and thinking that your thumb is going to stop a discharge, you're mistaken.

If all you've got is "guns without an exposed hammer or manual safety are bad", then it's no different than the thousand other posts I've read on the subject.

The only "new paradigm" is the incessant playground behavior of each design's fanboys wailing "my gun is safer than your gun".

Safety isn't a thing that magically happens on your gun, it's a condition that arises because you act a certain way and do certain things. Gun Rules 101.

...

Oh, and Sig is in trouble because they (A) didn't include a trigger safety on a gun they designed for carry, (B) used a trigger that was clearly too heavy for the pull, and (C) failed to properly safety test their pistol. You can, ironically, encounter the same condition on a 1911 with insufficient sear spring tension and too heavy a trigger/bow assembly.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:31 PM
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Wise A, I can appreciate that ypur expertise with real gunfighting should far exceed my own. And your posts are always expressed very well. But my posts are not about gunfighting, and they are not even necessarily about pistols. In the three threads I put up recently, they are about holstered pistols, and their equivalencies or laack thereof.

My armourer, a real gunfighter, has the very latest Glock and absolutely loves it. For real gunfighters, draw-point-bang is everything. No safeties to forget under stress, etc. Nor does he carry muzzling himself: he uses my avenger styles or his various pistols.

But again, unlike a 1911, or all revolvers, or a DA auto, holsters cannot ADD a level of safety to compensate: covering the guard only adds danger. Yet we cant fail to cover the trigger because Glock actions dont have separate safeties. Sophies Choice, and I simply wanted to make you all aware of the conundrum.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:37 PM
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But again, unlike a 1911, or all revolvers, or a DA auto, holsters cannot ADD a level of safety to compensate: covering the guard only adds danger.
That's a right nice picture on your website of a Glock in an IWB holster you designed for DeSantis, covered trigger guard and all . . .
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Old 08-29-2017, 05:21 PM
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The test of time & success has proven undeniably, Glock cannot be "killed", and the 1911 will never "die".
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Old 08-29-2017, 06:49 PM
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I thought I was done with replying to this thread and then I stumbled upon this and I said to myself, "Self, rednichols is gonna love this!!"

(c) Gun Digest 2017

Six Classic Must-Have Centerfire Semi-Auto Pistol Designs | Gun Digest

My jaw dropped when I read this paragraph! It fits right into parts of this discussion!

Quote:
The P38’s DA/SA trigger gave it a leg up on many of its contemporaries. Generally, pistols such as the M1911 were supposed to be carried in condition 3 (hammer down, chamber empty), meaning the slide must be racked to get it into action. On the other hand, the P38 only took a squeeze of the trigger to send a round down range.
Then the writer added this, and it fits into this discussion as well (emphasis added):

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On top of that, it had a unique aspect when it came to DA/SA pistols — it could be carried in condition 1. Going “cocked and locked” appealed to many (once again, think competitors) and is a rare feature on this style of pistol.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:11 PM
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But again, unlike a 1911, or all revolvers, or a DA auto, holsters cannot ADD a level of safety to compensate: covering the guard only adds danger. Yet we cant fail to cover the trigger because Glock actions dont have separate safeties. Sophies Choice, and I simply wanted to make you all aware of the conundrum.
But see, that's fine. I don't think about adding risk when I think about picking guns for this and that (I'm just a single-action revolver short of hitting Bingo). I only think about what I'm doing with it, because all that I care about is achieving "safe", not "most safe".

"Most safe" would be an empty chamber, or some other manner of foolishness. But that's planning for failure*. You may as well just admit you're not competent to carry.

When it comes to holstering the Glockalikes, I'm coming from that "practical application" place. Other designs might have some added features (I really hate calling anything "more safe" or even calling something a "safety feature")--but they have drawbacks. A DAO S&W is a great example of this. It'll do almost everything a Glock will do. And it'll give you an exposed hammer. But a DAO Smith can be short-stroked into a failure to fire, and the only way to clear it is to rack the slide unless you're lucky enough to have a TDA variant.

So weighing the lack of an external "fire control" feature against a "bang-click-oh-hell"--I would much rather have to exercise care when holstering in a controlled environment, than to risk having a single-shot 9mm in the face of a deadly threat. I mean, if I'm shooting somebody, it's because I think they're about to kill me and there's no other way to stop them.

Ditto for reholstering after the fact. I can control the risk, but I can't control the threat I'm trying to stop.

Ironically, I really, really like DAO Smiths. There's just something magic about them--I can't help but shoot well.

I don't necessarily think that a 1911 or revolver either needs or must not have a covered trigger. I know a few zealots (including one true fool) who do, but it all depends on what we're using it for, and where we're using it. And when it comes to range holsters--I own all kinds.

*If you wanted to pick nits, then you could say carrying a gun at all is planning for a failure of situational awareness, but I think that's ignorant of the fact that you can't control or avoid every threat you detect, or detect every threat that's out there.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:33 PM
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That's a right nice picture on your website of a Glock in an IWB holster you designed for DeSantis, covered trigger guard and all . . .
I've got one! Cozy Partner.

I don't think ya could find a holster that fits much better/tighter around the trigger guard.




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Old 08-29-2017, 08:14 PM
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I just want to say I am enjoying this family of threads immensely. It's like when I sit down to a David Lynch movie - I'm not entirely sure what is going on, but its fun to watch. (Think "Eraserhead" or "Inland Empire", not "A Straight Story", which was perfectly sensible.)


Also, though I think I vaguely disagree with Mr Nichols I am definitely going to buy one of his holsters.


Carry on!
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:14 PM
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That's a right nice picture on your website of a Glock in an IWB holster you designed for DeSantis, covered trigger guard and all . . .
Yes, I was late to this new understanding WHICH WAS THE POINT OF MY POST. Very late; for my clients 1985-2000 I created many, many designs for the Glock because I didn't realise. Then when I started up Red Nichols Holsters, I still didn't understand; but now I do.

NOW. When another holster maker tells me they 'get it' now that it's been raised, then we can move forward. I for one discontinued Glock and similar holsters when I worked it out. On my own. With active argument against, by holster makers, I will add.

This case reminds what we makers are all up against:

CHAVEZ v. GLOCK INC | FindLaw

Please read it, Muss. It's timely, and it's a "case on all fours" as it's known in law. Regular people have been affected by this belief, that all pistols are equally safe, and that holster makers have a responsibility to them (those people involved).

Mentioning this is not about lawsuits. Little makers don't have any money and don't need much to worry about lawsuits. Glock has high visibility and deep pockets and 'maybe' has products insurance; so they get sued. It's about how regular people's expectations have been violated, and that makes them v unhappy.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:23 PM
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Handsomely reasoned and worded, Wise A. These are from my armourer:

“Striker fired guns require no input from the user, but (also) do not offer any feedback if the trigger is obstructed. In *most* cases you can look at your holster and see it's clear and then keep your fingers out of the trigger guard. Sometimes in the real world you have to transition from lethal to non-lethal quickly and without looking away from your target, though.”

Note the comment about "looking" one's pistol back into the holster. Now, he's proven under fire, but most of us will be mighty shaky from fear and adrenalin if we're holstering after a shootout, and might even be under pressure to put our pistol away before the LEOs respond. So we just might not 'look' it into the holster and so ordinary people run the risk of being careless with their finger or their clothing, thereby getting caught in the covered guard.

Again: society says we can't uncover the guard, so we makers must cover it. But then we introduce a new danger. I had to 'solve' it by ceasing production, until Glock fixes this. Ruger did, on their SAAs, and prospered.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:38 PM
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...are giving me a headache.

That said, I was a big city LEO who wore an OPEN trigger guard holster with ONLY a snap strap whilst rocking a Model 10, 4 inch, heavy barrel. That was for about ten (10) years before transitioning to an auto loader.

Never shot myself or had someone take my gun.

As an aside, have never, ever considered appendix carry for any mode of carry/any gun.

Be safe.

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Old 08-30-2017, 06:18 AM
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Handsomely reasoned and worded, Wise A. These are from my armourer:

“Striker fired guns require no input from the user, but (also) do not offer any feedback if the trigger is obstructed. In *most* cases you can look at your holster and see it's clear and then keep your fingers out of the trigger guard. Sometimes in the real world you have to transition from lethal to non-lethal quickly and without looking away from your target, though.”

Note the comment about "looking" one's pistol back into the holster. Now, he's proven under fire, but most of us will be mighty shaky from fear and adrenalin if we're holstering after a shootout, and might even be under pressure to put our pistol away before the LEOs respond. So we just might not 'look' it into the holster and so ordinary people run the risk of being careless with their finger or their clothing, thereby getting caught in the covered guard.
That's a bridge I'll burn when I get to it--you have to win, first. On my particular holster, it's pretty easy to get the "mouth" of the holster clear. It's easy to practice, but there are definite steps.

Operative word being practice, practice, practice. It's not about being able to do it well, it's about not being incapable of doing it badly.

That, I think, is half the reason why you see so many of these incidents related to Everybody's Favorite Brand. Not only are there so many in circulation, but they're popular with LEO's. Cops don't get the best training forced on them, because it costs money and the department is accountable to the taxpayer. Training time costs a stupendous amount of money.

But you can have the same issue with any pistol design. Each one has its own set of must-not-do's (that's why I think that the particular set of issues you get with a no-thumb-safety-striker make them any different). I've seen some absolutely terrifying re-holstery with just about every pistol make out there--first-hand. Including the use of some holsters I think I could have comfortably used as socks.
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Old 08-30-2017, 08:14 AM
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It's not exactly on all fours, since I don't see resolved anywhere within where the pistol was when the three year old pulled the trigger. Lots of "coulda been." If you're threatened or intimidated by a pistol's design, don't make a holster for it . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
Yes, I was late to this new understanding WHICH WAS THE POINT OF MY POST. Very late; for my clients 1985-2000 I created many, many designs for the Glock because I didn't realise. Then when I started up Red Nichols Holsters, I still didn't understand; but now I do.

NOW. When another holster maker tells me they 'get it' now that it's been raised, then we can move forward. I for one discontinued Glock and similar holsters when I worked it out. On my own. With active argument against, by holster makers, I will add.

This case reminds what we makers are all up against:

CHAVEZ v. GLOCK INC | FindLaw

Please read it, Muss. It's timely, and it's a "case on all fours" as it's known in law. Regular people have been affected by this belief, that all pistols are equally safe, and that holster makers have a responsibility to them (those people involved).

Mentioning this is not about lawsuits. Little makers don't have any money and don't need much to worry about lawsuits. Glock has high visibility and deep pockets and 'maybe' has products insurance; so they get sued. It's about how regular people's expectations have been violated, and that makes them v unhappy.
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:51 PM
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The only ND I ever had was w/a 1911 style pistol, my fault and not the gun. A friend recently shot off his left index finger w/his 1911, again his fault and not the gun. I no longer own a 1911 and the only thing that comes close is a Glock 17 which is used for LEOSA certification. The 1911 is an expert's weapon and by that I mean someone who has trained & shot it long enough to establish very good muscle memory. My muscle memory was established w/a Model 10 and its operation comes as second nature. Glocks and other modern auto loaders make sense for law enforcement & the military, but my comfort level remains w/my J frame. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone who carries an auto loader, that's a personal choice and I assume those folks are competent. My daily orbits are pretty tame and if my "cops eyes" continue to serve me well the J should be enough.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:53 AM
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Red I have followed your discussion with great interest because, when
I think I might really need a gun, my choice is Glock Model 22 .40 Caliber.
Just wondered if you could give a quick critique of the following holster
choices (Left to Right)
For OWB Galco Cop
For driving vehicle Ross
For IWB Galco NSA
For OWB concealed EPS #88, or
Aker Yaqui slide
I agree with what you said about your armorer. When you need your
gun you need grab it, pull it, point it, and shoot QUICK!
What holster does he use? Is that what you recommend if someone
chooses to carry the Glock?
Thank you.
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Old 09-07-2017, 10:09 AM
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when
I think I might really need a gun, my choice is Glock Model 22 .40 Caliber.
Me too

Happy Holster Shopping


Holsters | Blade Tech Gun Holsters | Knives and Tactical Gear
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Old 09-07-2017, 10:49 AM
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I wish I could remember where I saw a post with pictures, of a guy who shot himself in the right butt cheek. The point of his post was he was using a soft sided cheap IWB holster. The result was somehow the striker fired pistol had the trigger moved enough to result in a nasty flesh wound. This was while the gun was in the holster and the carrier was going about his normal day standing, sitting in chairs and vehicles. Know your equipment and be safety aware. Good thing he was carrying at 4:00 instead of 2:00
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:24 PM
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I wish I could remember where I saw a post with pictures, of a guy who shot himself in the right butt cheek. The point of his post was he was using a soft sided cheap IWB holster.
If that's the one I'm thinking of, it was a Glock. I don't believe the story as told by the injured man is true. He blames the holster. I blame the shooter. He claims to have been adjusting his holster. Based on what was shown as how the holster caused it, I don't believe his story.

In either case, he's at fault. He should have checked his equipment before using it. He shouldn't have been futzing with his gun in the first place. The gun never should have come out of the holster far enough to cause the ND.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:19 AM
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rednichols rednichols is offline
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Originally Posted by crazyphil View Post
Red I have followed your discussion with great interest because, when
I think I might really need a gun, my choice is Glock Model 22 .40 Caliber.
Just wondered if you could give a quick critique of the following holster
choices (Left to Right)
For OWB Galco Cop
For driving vehicle Ross
For IWB Galco NSA
For OWB concealed EPS #88, or
Aker Yaqui slide
I agree with what you said about your armorer. When you need your
gun you need grab it, pull it, point it, and shoot QUICK!
What holster does he use? Is that what you recommend if someone
chooses to carry the Glock?
Thank you.
In the context of excellence in design, all of your examples are very well done. Especially the Galco, which I created (bearing in mind that it follows on from the relatively crude but seminal design of Baker's pancakes.) However, one should avoid the styles that place a strap where the web of the hand would grasp the pistol, because it interferes with a complete, initial grasp. Several layers to that which I won't go into now.

In the context of this thread, none of them can overcome the weakness in the Glock action, so I wouldn't choose any of them including my 1990s pancake there :-)

Seeing Aker's version of the slide, which I recall they didnt originate, I am in the midst of finalizing one of my own that is a step or two beyond that approach.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Pig Hunter View Post
I wish I could remember where I saw a post with pictures, of a guy who shot himself in the right butt cheek. The point of his post was he was using a soft sided cheap IWB holster. The result was somehow the striker fired pistol had the trigger moved enough to result in a nasty flesh wound. This was while the gun was in the holster and the carrier was going about his normal day standing, sitting in chairs and vehicles. Know your equipment and be safety aware. Good thing he was carrying at 4:00 instead of 2:00
And if its the one Im thinking of, it was a Galco that the poster made the point of saying had softened with age. I found his explanation very plausible.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:28 AM
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I believe this is the article in question: Worn Leather Holsters SAFETY WARNING: Accidental Discharges

There are a couple of issues I have with this story. He said he was leaning to the left and the gun discharged when he leaned back to the right. That movement would push the gun forward or slightly up and not in the direction necessary to fire the gun. Also, when I look at the pictures of the gun in the holster, the leather is just barely touching the bottom left corner of the trigger. It's not deep enough to deactivate the trigger safety and therefore, would not activate the trigger. Here is the picture I'm talking about:


OK, that's all just my opinion and I wasn't there. It's human nature to try to blame the equipment rather than themselves. Could this holster have done what he said? Yes.

Even so, like I said before, the biggest fail here still rests with the user. He should have checked his equipment prior to putting it on. Anyone who carries a gun should check their equipment every day. The instant they see something that might be an issue, the offending piece of gear should be set aside.

Further, he only owned this holster a year. Chances are the holster was too soft for reliable use long before that year was up. That alone is cause to never buy this particular holster. Any gun holster that becomes this "floppy" after only a year of use is a waste of money and becomes very expensive because it would have to be replaced so often.
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