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Old 08-20-2017, 09:24 PM
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. . . that carrying a pistol along the waist at 4:00 is as dangerous as carrying it at 1:00; on my 'new paradigm' post which has been somewhat hijacked. So a new thread on the topic of muzzling.

Some have heard Cooper's apocryphal story of knowing a chap who shot himself in the bum whilst carrying/drawing/holstering (not specified) in 'kidney' position. Standing, sitting, twisting? Also not specified. I'll assume drawing and we've long since learnt not to switch the safety off on a pistol until the muzzle is moving directly towards the target.

Anyway, this was all done in the light of my personal, professional objection to wearing any pistol, much less a striker pistol, across the belly (that is, any position across the front that is in the region of 12:00). Isn't it equally egregious -- and hypocritical -- to sell holsters that can (only) be worn at 3:00 to 4:00 (which I do, to the exclusion of all others)? Well, no, it's not:

It has been alleged . . .-4-oclock-2-jpg at 4:00

It has been alleged . . .-0-oclock-2-jpg at the belly

These are old pics, not created for this thread but for previous threads other forums. I recall I've a SIG P226 in the pics; don't get too hung up on that, the concept applies to all types of pistol. Also: the belt in the images is 'clocked': remarked from Noon (the buckle) all the way 'round, so the designation as 4:00 is not an estimate after the fact (I have all the other clocking images, too).

So: on the 'new paradigm' thread I posted a challenge to other holster makers, which was promptly 'failed'. Here I would pose a different challenge; anyone can play: imagine (let's not do this in real life) a contest in which I have my Condition One 1911 holstered at 4:00 as shown in my pic above; and you or a friend have your Glock holstered in Condition One (well, in this case there is no 'locked) at the belly.

In this imaginary contest, and realising that the yellow rod is meant to trace the bullet trajectory; which one of us will 'win' when we are both seated, and someone pulls the trigger as it clears the holster?

Well, I've 'cheated', haven't I? My Condtion One 1911 has a thumb safety AND a grip safety. Nothing at all will happen when the trigger is pulled. Not so the Glock: bang.

I'm not being a smart a** (asterisks mine); and I'm not proposing that anyone try this at home. To me (perhaps only me?) the hypothetical 'winner' is obvious; and it's as true at your favourite cafe as it is in theory, which is why I do not offer holsters that can be worn this way; and I don't see why anyone else does, either.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:28 PM
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Red -

All I can say is when I look at where the muzzle is pointed while at 4 o'clock...and where it's pointed while at 1 o'clock...I'd select 4 o'clock!

That said, there's a couple of pretty ugly pictures going around one of the boards where someone (somehow) was wearing at 4 o'clock and was getting out of a car and managed to ventilate his posterior.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:33 PM
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Ugh! You speak'm heap big truth Red Nichols!! Spoken in my best Lil Beaver imitation voice.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:06 PM
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Even if I had any idea what a 'paradigm' is, I still think, given a choice, I would rather get shot in the butt than anything else even near the front.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:13 PM
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I carry at 1:00 WITH a DA only auto. Not concerned at all.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:52 AM
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Keeping in mind that safety (I'm a nut about safety in all aspects of life not just holsters) is not about 'managing risk' but about 'eliminating all unnecessary risk', I have heard no argument that belly carry is a 'necessary risk'.

Given that it was NEVER done in the 20th century with autos or revolvers, what has changed about the 21st century, then? That is, what made belly carry appear to be a necessary risk?

I rode a very big bike (means 'motorcycle' here) for several years because it was necessary to get me to work. I never, ever rode it for any other reason. And when I no longer needed to ride, to get to work, I never rode again. Not that I didn't like riding, it was no longer a necessary risk.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
. . . that carrying a pistol along the waist at 4:00 is as dangerous as carrying it at 1:00; on my 'new paradigm' post which has been somewhat hijacked. So a new thread on the topic of muzzling.

Some have heard Cooper's apocryphal story of knowing a chap who shot himself in the bum whilst carrying/drawing/holstering (not specified) in 'kidney' position. Standing, sitting, twisting? Also not specified. I'll assume drawing and we've long since learnt not to switch the safety off on a pistol until the muzzle is moving directly towards the target.


Anyway, this was all done in the light of my personal, professional objection to wearing any pistol, much less a striker pistol, across the belly (that is, any position across the front that is in the region of 12:00). Isn't it equally egregious -- and hypocritical -- to sell holsters that can (only) be worn at 3:00 to 4:00 (which I do, to the exclusion of all others)? Well, no, it's not:

Attachment 298985 at 4:00

Attachment 298986 at the belly

These are old pics, not created for this thread but for previous threads other forums. I recall I've a SIG P226 in the pics; don't get too hung up on that, the concept applies to all types of pistol. Also: the belt in the images is 'clocked': remarked from Noon (the buckle) all the way 'round, so the designation as 4:00 is not an estimate after the fact (I have all the other clocking images, too).

So: on the 'new paradigm' thread I posted a challenge to other holster makers, which was promptly 'failed'. Here I would pose a different challenge; anyone can play: imagine (let's not do this in real life) a contest in which I have my Condition One 1911 holstered at 4:00 as shown in my pic above; and you or a friend have your Glock holstered in Condition One (well, in this case there is no 'locked) at the belly.

In this imaginary contest, and realising that the yellow rod is meant to trace the bullet trajectory; which one of us will 'win' when we are both seated, and someone pulls the trigger as it clears the holster?

Well, I've 'cheated', haven't I? My Condtion One 1911 has a thumb safety AND a grip safety. Nothing at all will happen when the trigger is pulled. Not so the Glock: bang.

I'm not being a smart a** (asterisks mine); and I'm not proposing that anyone try this at home. To me (perhaps only me?) the hypothetical 'winner' is obvious; and it's as true at your favourite cafe as it is in theory, which is why I do not offer holsters that can be worn this way; and I don't see why anyone else does, either.
''


What's with the tin whistle coming out the bottom of your holster?
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:45 AM
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I tape my carry gun to my forehead with duct tape...(sarcasm alert)
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:03 AM
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I carried my trusty Glock 27 in a sturdy IWB holster inbetween my belt buckle and right front pocket off and on for about 20 years, spanning both the 20th and 21st centuries. I made many a draw from it when making arrests.

Somehow I did not shoot myself in the nether regions. Also, the gun never took it upon itself to shoot me on its own.

Some of you fine folks overthink this stuff to death.

Its is fun to read, though.
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Old 08-21-2017, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
I carried my trusty Glock 27 in a sturdy IWB holster inbetween my belt buckle and right front pocket off and on for about 20 years, spanning both the 20th and 21st centuries. I made many a draw from it when making arrests.

Somehow I did not shoot myself in the n6ether regions. Also, the gun never took it upon itself to shoot me on its own.

Some of you fine folks overthink this stuff to death.

Its is fun to read, though.
It is fun isn't it?

Your comment reminds me about the chap (true story) who had his back broken when he was hit on his bike. "I've been riding for 20 years. If it can happen to me it can happen to anyone". Nope, not at all. Good or bad, if it happened to you, it ca't happen to anyone.

I'd say some people don't think enough!
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Old 08-21-2017, 04:27 AM
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In this imaginary contest, and realising that the yellow rod is meant to trace the bullet trajectory; which one of us will 'win' when we are both seated, and someone pulls the trigger as it clears the holster?

Well, I've 'cheated', haven't I? My Condtion One 1911 has a thumb safety AND a grip safety. Nothing at all will happen when the trigger is pulled. Not so the Glock: bang.
Grip safety will be deactivated when you grip. Thumb safety will be deactivated shortly thereafter. Plenty of people have shot themselves or had very near misses at action pistol events--regardless of pistol design.

Frankly, Red, that kind of reliance on manual safety features is dangerous.
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:50 AM
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I rode a very big bike (means 'motorcycle' here) for several years because it was necessary to get me to work. I never, ever rode it for any other reason. And when I no longer needed to ride, to get to work, I never rode again. Not that I didn't like riding, it was no longer a necessary risk.
I read about the Aussie critters causing problems on the roads there.
Come visit us for a ride here in the Smoky Mountains. Avoid riding at dusk and dawn for the deer, and the rest of the day it feels like a private playground.

How do you feel about canted cross-draw carry?
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:58 AM
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I tape my carry gun to my forehead with duct tape...(sarcasm alert)
You need one of these guys there. Easier to spot.
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:10 AM
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I have been carrying appendix since before it was cool to carry appendix. Double decades now and none of my 1911's, revolvers, glocks, or other myriad of firearms has ever gone off.

Why?

Because I carry in a proper holster that I inspect before I utilize and I don't allow my finger or other items such as belts, shirt tails etc get into the trigger guard.

It's not that hard, really.
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:16 AM
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with all the safety experts, and the if ya aint doing it my way your wrong people................ we will never do anything
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:02 AM
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I guess I don't understand the amount of concern on this topic. If you have a gun on your waist at any position, or in your pocket, and it goes off, there's a pretty good chance it will impact you in some way. It all comes down to your level of safe handling. I've yet to find a method of carry that never involves the muzzle pointing at something of mine at some point in the day.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:33 AM
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When off duty I have been carrying a pistol at 1 o'clock.....since 1994. Sometimes a J frame Smith, but most of that time the DREADED Glock.

I agree that appendix/1 o'clock carry is not for everyone (mostly because of big belly syndrome, lol), but to not understand why any other holster maker makes a holster for this type of carry is a little left of opinion and more centered on bias I think. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with a man's own choosing of a personal bias when it comes to holster make/position, but it is what it is, and nothing more...
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
Keeping in mind that safety (I'm a nut about safety in all aspects of life not just holsters) is not about 'managing risk' but about 'eliminating all unnecessary risk', I have heard no argument that belly carry is a 'necessary risk'.

Given that it was NEVER done in the 20th century with autos or revolvers, what has changed about the 21st century, then? That is, what made belly carry appear to be a necessary risk?

I rode a very big bike (means 'motorcycle' here) for several years because it was necessary to get me to work. I never, ever rode it for any other reason. And when I no longer needed to ride, to get to work, I never rode again. Not that I didn't like riding, it was no longer a necessary risk.
"NEVER done in the 20th century"? I guess I must be from the future, then, as I've been belly carrying J-frames and compact semis since the mid-70s with ZERO problems!

Your over-concern for the "safety" of packing a handgun in various positions seems to follow your over-concern for riding motorcycles, as "it was no longer a necessary risk." I guess that you'll be just totally horrified by the fact that I belly carry while riding!

If I were so afraid that I wouldn't CC, or ride motorcycle, for that matter, without your approval of gear and method, I, too, might move to Australia and hide from the rest of the world. We're hammered every day by various sources that tell us that just BREATHING is dangerous!

Sorry, I prefer to use the bubble wrap for shipping packages, not as everyday personal wear. To each his own. After 67 years of living, I think that I may have learned enough to evaluate and mitigate the pitfalls we all face as we take the journey through life. Not having a "Red Nichols approved" holster and how I clock it is way down on my list of worries. For myself it is a non-existent problem that requires no solution.

G'day, mate.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:13 PM
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I'd like to see a picture of that fella' standing straight up with the dowel rod through the barrel . . .

What about IWB at 4 O'Clock . . . ?

(You make IWB holsters, right?)
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:18 PM
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Grip safety will be deactivated when you grip. Thumb safety will be deactivated shortly thereafter. Plenty of people have shot themselves or had very near misses at action pistol events--regardless of pistol design.

Frankly, Red, that kind of reliance on manual safety features is dangerous.
You didn't think through my post at all. The person pulling the trigger is not the wearer; remember this all came up because of a third party pulling the trigger? In my 'Schroedinger's (sp?) Cat' proposed experiment, 'we' will holster and someone else will pull the trigger. We'll use blanks :-).

Let's suppose my gunsmith has completely let me down. My thumb safety doesn't work, my grip safety doesn't work, and my pistol goes off. Same result: at 4:00 I will get a powder burn, you will be in hospital (hopefully) wishing you could change your bet!

Seriously, though, my post isn't about worrying for you all. I completely respect your right to make a choice. I just refuse to enable your bad choice and so I found a way to absolutely prevent it: my designs don't work in those positions. How about a little respect for 'walking the talk', eh?

What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, what has changed that belly carry has become necessary; that it, no other location will suffice?

Comments on that would be appreciated, rather than the 'seat belt defence' ('I drove cars for thirty years without seat belts and didn't die, I don't need them now'): personally I drove cars for thirty years without airbags without dying, which doesn't prove anything at all.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:32 PM
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So someone else is going to walk up to me, reach for my appendix rig and pull the trigger? One reason I like appendix or 3 clock carry is due to easier weapon retention. I have a bad right shoulder and have a hard time reaching around behind me. Add in that trying to retain a weapon against someone trying to pull-up against me?

And if your thumb safety and grip safety don't work on your 1911, you shouldn't be carrying it. Every time you clean your firearm you should be doing a functions check, which includes safety. So that wouldn't be your gunsmith letting you down, that would be YOU letting yourself down.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:35 PM
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So someone else is going to walk up to me, reach for my appendix rig and pull the trigger? One reason I like appendix or 3 clock carry is due to easier weapon retention. I have a bad right shoulder and have a hard time reaching around behind me. Add in that trying to retain a weapon against someone trying to pull-up against me?

And if your thumb safety and grip safety don't work on your 1911, you shouldn't be carrying it. Every time you clean your firearm you should be doing a functions check, which includes safety. So that wouldn't be your gunsmith letting you down, that would be YOU letting yourself down.
Oh for chrissake. This thread is (unofficially) closed.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:36 PM
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I guess what I am mostly confused about in all of this is the fear of the gun going off while holstered. If the holster is made in a way that it can be fired while on your belt without you doing something to make it happen, I wouldn't carry it in any position.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:51 PM
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You didn't think through my post at all. The person pulling the trigger is not the wearer; remember this all came up because of a third party pulling the trigger? In my 'Schroedinger's (sp?) Cat' proposed experiment, 'we' will holster and someone else will pull the trigger. We'll use blanks :-).

Let's suppose my gunsmith has completely let me down. My thumb safety doesn't work, my grip safety doesn't work, and my pistol goes off. Same result: at 4:00 I will get a powder burn, you will be in hospital (hopefully) wishing you could change your bet!

Seriously, though, my post isn't about worrying for you all. I completely respect your right to make a choice. I just refuse to enable your bad choice and so I found a way to absolutely prevent it: my designs don't work in those positions. How about a little respect for 'walking the talk', eh?

What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, what has changed that belly carry has become necessary; that it, no other location will suffice?

Comments on that would be appreciated, rather than the 'seat belt defence' ('I drove cars for thirty years without seat belts and didn't die, I don't need them now'): personally I drove cars for thirty years without airbags without dying, which doesn't prove anything at all.
So what you are saying is that carrying appendix is unsafe?

This is my .02

Shouldn't the argument be that unsafe handling of the weapon while carrying appendix is unsafe due to the proximity of the muzzle to the femoral artery.

Finishing up with most of the accidents that have occurred while carrying appendix were either due to improper or unsafe handling or defective and or lack of proper holsters.

The professional training market and holster technology coming out is geared a lot towards appendix carry is not because it is a new method of carry but it has gained popularity in the past 10 years because it has not only been proven to be safe with a proper holster and belt, but a great way to conceal and retain/access your firearm in a struggle. So in reality 4:00 is the "old" way if you look at the market trends.

Handling firearms are unsafe. If you are uncomfortable with your gear or proficiency handling a firearm then maybe you need to look at your training methods and seek out professional training to build your confidence to carry the best way you feel comfortable and not demeaning one way or the other. I'm not saying YOU are just pointing it out for the sake of the debate on carry method. It's clear you don't like appendix carry. Then carry your way and be happy.

I embrace new tech and new methods. SOme work for me, some don't. But I'm not going to blow it off until I try it.

The RDS is a perfect example. A few people started marketing them and were met with disdain from the iron sight crowd.... look now it is all the rage and the tech and demand is growing.

Look at how the firearm stance has evolved.

I love capitalism, I love new things, and I love new methods. Whatever works for you may not work for me, that doesn't make it more right or wrong. I have been carrying this way since before it was popular. that's how my dad carried UC when he was in dope and he turned me onto it but of course I had to try it myself. I did FoF training many moons ago in a small group of like minded firearms enthusiasts who wanted to break away from the traditional gunsite method ( and yes I trained at and followed J.C. - and he is why I love the 10mm) when I was in the military and I tried it and low and behold that was the carry method I found to work best for me after my experiences.

It's like 9mm vs 45. Glock vs 1911. Revolver vs Semi. The correct answer is they are all right if you are happy, safe, and proficient.

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Old 08-21-2017, 09:23 PM
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Knowing how to make an item doesn't make that person some wise oracle on its use. A blacksmith can forge a sword, that doesn't mean he has the slightest clue how to use it. After reading the OP's three related posts my general takeaway is that he doesn't like appendix carry and doesn't like striker fired guns, or at least finds them somehow less safe to carry. Now I've owned and carried lots of holsters for lots of guns and can't say I have a single one that a third party could somehow fire in my holster, at any position. Also if my holster or firearm are not in optimal working condition it's MY fault, not my holster makers or my gunsmiths. If you don't like striker fired guns then don't carry one. If you don't like appendix carry don't carry that way. If you are a holster maker and choose not to make holsters for that method, that's your choice. But stop preaching to everyone else trying to tell us we're wrong because our opinion differs from yours.
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:56 PM
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Oh for chrissake. This thread is (unofficially) closed.
I guess I don't understand your position at all . . .
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:00 PM
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Dude, I carry a 442 left handed, in what would be appendix carry if I was right handed, but it's on the left side. It's hidden, easy to access, and safe. I like it. I've been carrying a gun for 30+ years. I've looked at a bunch of alternatives, and carried them all for a while. Picked this one. What's you beef with that? You're starting to sound like my grampa shouting at the neighbor's lawn . . .

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You didn't think through my post at all. The person pulling the trigger is not the wearer; remember this all came up because of a third party pulling the trigger? In my 'Schroedinger's (sp?) Cat' proposed experiment, 'we' will holster and someone else will pull the trigger. We'll use blanks :-).

Let's suppose my gunsmith has completely let me down. My thumb safety doesn't work, my grip safety doesn't work, and my pistol goes off. Same result: at 4:00 I will get a powder burn, you will be in hospital (hopefully) wishing you could change your bet!

Seriously, though, my post isn't about worrying for you all. I completely respect your right to make a choice. I just refuse to enable your bad choice and so I found a way to absolutely prevent it: my designs don't work in those positions. How about a little respect for 'walking the talk', eh?

What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, what has changed that belly carry has become necessary; that it, no other location will suffice?

Comments on that would be appreciated, rather than the 'seat belt defence' ('I drove cars for thirty years without seat belts and didn't die, I don't need them now'): personally I drove cars for thirty years without airbags without dying, which doesn't prove anything at all.
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:12 PM
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Knowing how to make an item doesn't make that person some wise oracle on its use... stop preaching to everyone else trying to tell us we're wrong because our opinion differs from yours.
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:12 PM
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From what I gather his gripe isn't about holsters or guns but training issues. Don't carry appendix because you will put your finger on the trigger the second the trigger is out of the holster and shoot your femoral.

Like I said. Training. Not gun. Not holsters.

But I could be wrong.
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:27 PM
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"...your bad choice", "a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks..."

I don't know that I'd want to be promoted to God and lay judgement on everyone else! It must be a burden to have the only brain on the planet, trying to guide we poor, misguided souls.

Man, buy a vowel and chill out! I can't take any more of this obsession.

Over and out!!!
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:28 PM
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All this ^^^ makes me doubly glad I don't carry.

(It's a personal choice, nothing more)
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
Given that it was NEVER done in the 20th century with autos or revolvers...
I just found out it's true that one's mouth actually does drop open in amazement upon hearing a self-professed "expert" make a statement like that.

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Old 08-21-2017, 10:34 PM
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Rule #1: Guns go bang when you pull the trigger and bad things happen in the bullets path

Rule #2: See rule #1
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
You didn't think through my post at all. The person pulling the trigger is not the wearer; remember this all came up because of a third party pulling the trigger? In my 'Schroedinger's (sp?) Cat' proposed experiment, 'we' will holster and someone else will pull the trigger. We'll use blanks :-).

Let's suppose my gunsmith has completely let me down. My thumb safety doesn't work, my grip safety doesn't work, and my pistol goes off. Same result: at 4:00 I will get a powder burn, you will be in hospital (hopefully) wishing you could change your bet!

Seriously, though, my post isn't about worrying for you all. I completely respect your right to make a choice. I just refuse to enable your bad choice and so I found a way to absolutely prevent it: my designs don't work in those positions. How about a little respect for 'walking the talk', eh?

What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, what has changed that belly carry has become necessary; that it, no other location will suffice?

Comments on that would be appreciated, rather than the 'seat belt defence' ('I drove cars for thirty years without seat belts and didn't die, I don't need them now'): personally I drove cars for thirty years without airbags without dying, which doesn't prove anything at all.
So if all you care about is the position of the gun--why did you bother to write a whole exercise trying to bash everything that isn't a 1911?

Also, if you're going to tout that "unnecessary risk" nonsense, then we'd better all stop buying Series 70s. The half-cock notch is not enough!
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:51 AM
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I have several Bianchi and DeSantis holsters designed by rednichols. I like his designs, appreciate his expertise with gun leather (I do not care for Kydex), and enjoy reading his opinions (and most everyone elses) on the subject. Regardless, I am still going to do it the way that suits me best.

Every time I log on to this forum I learn something.
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bigwheelzip View Post
I read about the Aussie critters causing problems on the roads there.
Come visit us for a ride here in the Smoky Mountains. Avoid riding at dusk and dawn for the deer, and the rest of the day it feels like a private playground.

How do you feel about canted cross-draw carry?
I thought those deer should be taking a nap in the middle of the day, too................until one took a flying leap off a mountainside, sailed over the left lane, and touched down at the base of my front wheel, as I was doing 65 mph. This was around 3:00 in the afternoon, on a hot July day. It all takes less than a second.

As I hit center mass, the front wheel was pushed into the engine of my 800 lb. bike. I was vaulted over the windshield, just as seat belt less drivers are ejected from cars, and was appropriately damaged. Happily, wore a full face helmet that day, considering I usually bagged it for cross country rides.

On the other hand, this was a mule deer from the Rockies. May be different in the Smoky's. Some of my semi's have a safety, and some don't.

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Old 08-22-2017, 09:29 AM
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If one does not know how their personal carry firearm operates.....

Maybe they shouldn't be carrying one in any position.

Gee Wiz.


.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:08 AM
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I saw many an armed "professional" carrying IWBA in the late 70s, early 80s, in "Summer Special" holsters from Bruce Nelson and Milt Sparks.

That said, IWBA carry was "not recommended for newbies and/or amateurs". Yes, I carried IWBA in certain circumstances, back then a Full-Size, all-steel Colt Government Model.

We actually went thru one part of a training course where the target was only visible from the waist down. We were trained to aim for the "heart below the waist", the femoral artery.

On a personal note, without going into details, I was once about 100 feet from a man who took one handgun bullet to his femoral artery, a direct hit. I had seen men shot before and since, but I've never seen a single handgun bullet cause so much blood to pump out of a human being so fast. In the seconds it took me to reach him, for all practical purposes, he was dead. That image left me with a healthy, cautious respect for IWBA Carry.

I'm not opposed to IWBA Carry, but I still believe the instructors back then had it right, "Not recommended for newbies and/or amateurs".

Stay Safe Everyone



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Old 08-22-2017, 08:26 PM
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In my crime reporting years I occasionally saw cases where armed robbers blew off various appendages from jamming their handguns down into their waistbands during the crime or in getaway stage. (Always occasion for a good law enforcement laugh I might add.) It was pretty much always an appendix carry situation, though I recall one goober who stuffed his .25 auto in his back pocket, jumped back in the getaway car and somehow triggered off a round that perforated his gluteous maximus.

Also saw a few accidental discharges from holstering weapons carried OWB, usually at around 3 o'clock, and those usually resulted in just a hole in the floor and lots of embarrassment or at worst a painful graze wound.

Never been too comfortable with the whole appendix carry thing from hearing some thugs sing permanent soprano.
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Old 08-22-2017, 10:21 PM
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Everybody has their own concept of "best" for a holster. It's always a combination of comfort, conceivability and accessibility

I can't sit or bend comfortably carrying in the appendix (1:00) position. To draw a pistol holstered in this position requires a mid-course reversal to clear and present. Nor does it have any advantage while driving. The only time I've seen appendix carry in practice is for plain-clothesed police, who don't care if (perhaps prefer to be) seen armed. Often as not, the holster has a badge carrier.

I'm happy with 4:00 carry, which for me is comfortable, accessible, and when standing, easily accessible. 4:00 refers to where it sits at the belt line. The grip is forward and tightly pressed to my side. When I reach for something on a shelf, I use my left hand, but printing is never a problem unless I bend at the waist (which I don't do when carrying).

4:00 is not very accessible when driving, but okay in a pinch. I use a shoulder holster when weather permits. It conceals under a light vest or jacket and is reachable sitting or standing.

An alternative would be cross-draw except for one thing. In a CQB situation, a shoulder or cross-draw holster is facing the threat, and more easily seized or deflected. At 4:00, you turn so the pistol is away from the threat, and put your weak hand in a defensive position.

That is my rationale, and what I practice. YMMV.

Last edited by Neumann; 08-22-2017 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:30 AM
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[QUOTE=rednichols
What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, [/QUOTE]

If this were true no one would have ever reached the top of Everest, the Wright Brothers wouldn't have even attempted to fly that plane, Evel Knevel would have been a school teacher, I could go on but you get the point.
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Old 08-25-2017, 05:51 PM
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Here's the 'holstory' answer that summarises what I've been trying to work out with you all, via this thread:

“Striker fired guns require no input from the user, but (also) do not offer any feedback if the trigger is obstructed. In *most* cases you can look at your holster and see it's clear and then keep your fingers out of the trigger guard. Sometimes in the real world you have to transition from lethal to non-lethal quickly and without looking away from your target, though.”

Perhaps you’ve heard the tale of how a frog came to be boiled to death when it started out in lukewarm water. All it took was the water temperature being raised by a single degree over time, and in the end no creature was more surprised than he! Similarly, pistol users now find themselves ‘boiled’ by their modern striker-fired pistols, and their holsters.

Holster history is only about 150 years old. Single shot pistols were left on the horse because, once fired, they became clubs. Colt’s revolvers gave us a reason to carry them along, and then metallic cartridges made the semi-auto pistol possible.

Holsters, then, started out for single action revolvers and it was common to equip them with safety straps. These secured the pistol and some had the side benefit of holding the hammer down, too. Trigger guards were generally uncovered as that was the marketplace at the time: who then wouldn’t want ready access to the trigger? Single actions of the day were ideally carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber: cocking the hammer brought a loaded chamber into position.

Double action revolvers followed soon after and gun designers then were no dummies: they were designed so that the firing pin didn’t rest on the primer while the trigger was forward (so no more empty chamber under the hammer. Then autos, first with striker fired pistols such as the Luger and the Colt Vest Pocket that had one and even two external safeties, and were carried uncocked on an empty chamber: obvious minimum standards at the time (around 1900). Hammered pistols, such as the 1911, followed suit in the same vein: grip safety, thumb safety, and always carried hammer-down on an empty chamber. The earliest safety holster appeared, called the Audley -- and the 'water' temperature increased.

Thereafter, the auto pistol was sophisticated, from single action to double action as on revolvers. Noteworthy was the Walther P38 which later was emulated by S&W with its M39: double action trigger, thumb safety that also acted as a decocking lever – whilst positively locking the firing pin. Obvious attention to safety.

We holster makers accommodated all these pistols and more. In the late 1950s a chap named Bucheimer patented the thumb snap for revolvers and it worked a treat: it held the hammer down so the trigger couldn’t lift it, shielded clothing from the very sharp hammer spurs of the era, and yet allowed a very quick release of the pistol. The water warmed a bit: holster makers had begun to take on even more of the responsibility for pistol safety.

Late 1960s and, with WWII ended for 20 years, the M1911 auto came of age for civilians: following the now-passé craze of fast-draw with single action Colts firing blanks, came Big Bear CA and ‘combat shoots’ using cocked-and-locked 1911s with live .45 ammo. Even the same holster makers, Anderson and Alfonso. "Cover the trigger guards", someone said, and so it was done, and the water got warmer: now shooters could shoot themselves without covered guards, and because of them, too.

The 1970s and the notion of the ‘riot proof holster’ was an effort by many makers to keep the pistol in the holster during an assault on it. Worked quite well with revolvers, and the water got warmer. We struggled a bit doing this with autos, too, but clever people became involved and discovered that kydex was the ideal support medium. And with combat shooters always looking to be faster, and being happy to 'outsmart' the rule makers on the way, their holsters drifted back to the way fast draw shooters had done it: suspended muzzle forward, roughly at the appendix area on right handers.

The first striker fired pistols to lack external safeties appeared in the 1980s: the Glock. An Army colonel I knew then said he wished it had been available during the Army trials that selected the Beretta M92. But Glock's was the only one, right? The water got warmer still.

A perfect storm formed by the end of the 20th century: Glock’s competitors followed suit with their own striker fired pistols, holsters drifted past ‘appendix’ and over the belly, and tactical lights were added to pistols even for concealment. I was 'retired' during the first decade of the 21st century and unaware.

Holster makers, notably Safariland, continued their perceived role of providing for the security of these pistols – striker-fired with lights – and suddenly it was the users who found themselves in hot water: the lights being larger around than the trigger guard of these striker pistols, anything and everything could, and did, get into the gap in the holster that was formed near the trigger. Today, we have documented events in which the wearer's clothing, bad guys’ fingers, good guys’ keys, even a curious child’s finger got into these guards and -- bang! Officer down, and the frog was boiled.

Holsters have a single purpose: "to provide for the portability of hand-held weapons". Otherwise they'd have to stay in the hand, wouldn't they? Sure, we’ll put up our hand to keep these weapons inside the holster against gravity. And we’ll agree that these weapons should come out of their sheaths when summoned. We’ll even agree that our holsters “will do no harm”.

But it is not our role, to add back the safety, that the pistol maker left out. Ruger found that out the hard way with their original single action revolvers and the company reinvented them in the early 1970s accordingly.


Since writing this, I'm told that there is an accessory for the Glock to provide the 'feedback' of the striker moving when holstering :-)
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Old 08-25-2017, 06:19 PM
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It's called the GADGET and for 80 bucks I'd rather just not put my finger near the trigger. Much easier.

However not all holsters are made the same so instead of targeting the striker fired issue, let's call it what it is. Holster makers constructing improper holsters for these firearms that allow for issues such as this.

So if you plan on carrying AIWB then buy a proper appendix holster from a proper holster maker.

Such as but not limited to:

JM Custom Kydex
Dale Fricke
Mastermind Tactics
Bladetech
V Development Group

Just to name a few proper AIWB manufacturers off the top of my head

oh and wedges work for both concealement, function, and comfort....

And dont worry about all that junk when your striker fired is pointed near your junk.

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Old 08-25-2017, 06:53 PM
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If you blow off your junk, it is your fault.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:39 PM
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A vest pocket is starting to sound pretty good!
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:53 AM
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Speaking of "pistols – striker-fired with lights"...

The shifting sands of weapon lights is changing the paradigm. Couldn't help myself...

Until recently, weapon lights mounted on handguns were monsters significantly wider than the handgun and trigger guard with activation paddles suitable for a rowboat (pics plucked off the Net). These Surefire and Streamlight examples are/were widely used. I can imagine holster makers struggled with this and would not be surprised if the duty holster involved in the accidental discharge (linked vid in the other thread) was designed to accommodate a large light like these.





-- Enter the Surefire XC1 on my G19 truck gun.







------

The difference is significant. The older Surefire and Streamlight above show to be 1.43 and 1.47 inches wide. I put the calipers on my XC1 and it's reading 1.07 inches. HUGE difference in closing that "gap".

Cheers

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Old 08-27-2017, 08:41 PM
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Excellent, from Chattanooga. Now we have 'gotten down to brass tacks'.

The very strength, literally, of Kydex is its rigidity. So: if leather were used on such holsters -- for pistols with a bulky or slim light mounted on the rail -- the holster mouth could have, and hopefully would have, been moulded smaller at the lips of it and would have then moved out of the way as the pistol was holstered and drawn.

Kydex simply won't allow this in the thicknesses used in police uniform holsters sold as safety equipment. So the maximum dimension of the light was left for it to enter and exit freely; and this left a sizeable gap.

Safariland then, when noticing the problem at the outset, could have fitted a flexible lip to the rigid Kydex mount, to block entry. I would argue that instead they used the old paradigm -- the trigger was covered like all the pistols before it -- and so that 'counted' as being a complete 'industry standard' build. On the other hand, someone there may have simply looked at the situation and decided 'we HAVE to make this (we can't turn the business away) but it's not our fault (the bed was on fire when I lay down on it).

And so it was with these two views in mind, that I brought up the 'new paradigm since 1985' in the first place. To someone there, it 'looked' like the old problem, but it was a new problem that had simply gone unnoticed since the Glock's introduction; exacerbated by there subsequently having been so many competing pistol designs but no significant holster companies to compete for Kydex holster contracts -- which lack of competition Safariland actually worked hard to create via their technology and related patents (nowadays to the gadgets fitted inside and outside, the leather-lined Kydex 'method' patent having long ago expired).
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:00 AM
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The very strength, literally, of Kydex is its rigidity. So: if leather were used on such holsters -- for pistols with a bulky or slim light mounted on the rail -- the holster mouth could have, and hopefully would have, been moulded smaller at the lips of it and would have then moved out of the way as the pistol was holstered and drawn.

Kydex simply won't allow this in the thicknesses used in police uniform holsters sold as safety equipment. So the maximum dimension of the light was left for it to enter and exit freely; and this left a sizeable gap.
With lights like the Surefire XC1 mounted on a standard Glock the maximum width dimension entering the holster is the frame, not the light. According to my calipers 1.14in vs 1.07in.

Maybe a RedNichols XC1/Glock holster is in the future.

Cheers.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:17 PM
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With lights like the Surefire XC1 mounted on a standard Glock the maximum width dimension entering the holster is the frame, not the light. According to my calipers 1.14in vs 1.07in.

Maybe a RedNichols XC1/Glock holster is in the future.

Cheers.
No, its not. The light itself has only magnified the flaw in the pistol, so no holsters from me for pistols that are not always equipped with external safety features. Not the holster makers job to compensate for the pistols failings.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:19 PM
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No, its not. The light itself has only magnified the flaw in the pistol, so no holsters from me for pistols that are not always equipped with external safety features. Not the holster makers job to compensate for the pistols failings.
Ok, so you're not just talking just about striker-fired, but all pistols absent external safeties?

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