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  #51  
Old 08-27-2017, 07:19 PM
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I sometimes carry concealed........
Jest a jacket in winter and a long tailed shirt in summer.


I'm not overly self–conscious about the whole deal...As some have said,
most folks don't know what's going on in their own little world.
Too self absorbed to even notice their own actions,
lit'l on who's carrying a personal defense firearm concealed.


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Old 08-27-2017, 07:57 PM
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Here in Fl I take concealed as the gun not being visable, printing OK. At times I've simply covered it with a bandana or ball cap, not that it will fool anyone but it is technically concealed. At any time confronted with a LEO I go along with things being what they say they are, at that time/place. The time for debate is with a judge & Lawyers and I'd rather not spend the weekend in a holding cell awaiting a chance to prove my innocence. I don't feel the need to push the envelope or OC, even if legal in a town or shopping mall, just cuz I can.
You can't OC in FL in those locations; that will get you in serious trouble.
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:58 PM
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Default THANKS FOR THE GRAMMAR CORRECTION.

I actually knew that one, I was just in a hurry I guess & not paying attention. A thousand pardons.
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:14 AM
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Thanks for jumping in, I realize this nonsense means nothing to people that live in free states, but it behooves people in this (Safe Act) state to be well up on the law!
I consider it a solid education on what's going to happen to a lot of people eventually. Everyone says "oh, only in the NE and California, never in my state!"

Last bunch of folks to say that lived in Colorado. Arizona or Nevada's next. Gotta get out and vote in every election--you get the wrong governor, then you lose a commanding majority in the state assembly/senate, and along comes one good tragedy--you get what we got, overnight.
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Old 08-28-2017, 02:49 AM
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I can OC in the shopping center, and is legal, and it has nothing to do with just because I can. It is my wife, and I preferred form of carry. Some people just need to worry about their own envelope. OC has been protected for over 70 years in NC, and it was the only option until 1995. It is normal here, but I know some people may not find that acceptable. Good thing that roads go both ways.

As far as CC, my bug stays in my pocket, never had anyone notice. Most people probably in most states just do not care enough to notice if someone is CC, even if they print.

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Old 08-28-2017, 08:46 AM
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I can OC in the shopping center, and is legal, and it has nothing to do with just because I can. It is my wife, and I preferred form of carry. Some people just need to worry about their own envelope. OC has been protected for over 70 years in NC, and it was the only option until 1995. It is normal here, but I know some people may not find that acceptable. Good thing that roads go both ways.

As far as CC, my bug stays in my pocket, never had anyone notice. Most people probably in most states just do not care enough to notice if someone is CC, even if they print.
Carrying in malls can get a little strange. We have a local mall that is posted no handguns on the main entrance in the front. However, there is a sporting goods store that has it's own separate entrance and it is not posted, and neither is the entrance from their store into the rest of the mall. In addition, the door on the back side of the mall leading to the food court is not posted.

I am sure people have carried in that mall numerous times before ever seeing that sign on the front door. It's thus ambiguous at best, and it really comes down to any individual stores choosing to post at their particular entrances if it's really important to them.

However, I suspect most people who conceal carry there don't feel like arguing the point with mall security, or risking a "man with a gun" compliant to law enforcement, and make sure concealed is truly concealed. I suspect security would be asking anyone carrying openly to leave the premises, and in fact I've never seen anyone open carry there. That said, I might make it to the mall all of 2 or 3 times a year.

The malls I have visited in the Raleigh area have not been posted, but again I have never seen anyone open carrying. It's legal, but it's not common. And again, I might get there 1 or 2 times a year. I'm not big on shopping malls.
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  #57  
Old 08-28-2017, 09:01 AM
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Lots of good advice on CC here. The one aspect of CC that I do not see addressed often online is 2nd magazine carry. In those instances where I have become aware of someone else attempting to CC it has usually been either a brief flash because their cover garment rode up or moved OR their method of magazine carry was as obvious as a brick. Too many of the magazine holsters are just plain obvious and do not conceal worth a dime. I use re-purposed multi-tool holsters for my magazine. When they are exposed people think knife/multi-tool and not GUN. Too many place too much emphasis on competition speed and access for their 2nd magazine. Honestly, the snap cover on my nylon multi-tool holsters work just fine, are plenty fast enough for real life, and I can carry them vertically or horizontally on my belt.
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Old 08-28-2017, 09:06 AM
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I consider it a solid education on what's going to happen to a lot of people eventually. Everyone says "oh, only in the NE and California, never in my state!"

Last bunch of folks to say that lived in Colorado. Arizona or Nevada's next. Gotta get out and vote in every election--you get the wrong governor, then you lose a commanding majority in the state assembly/senate, and along comes one good tragedy--you get what we got, overnight.
It needs to be more than just getting out and voting. The trend lines on gun ownership are not good when you look back over the last 50 years. In 1972 49.5% of all households had at least one gun. In 2014, that had decreased to 32.4%.

In other words, when push comes to shove we're out voted anytime there is an anti-gun ballot issue and good voter turnout.

We need to recognize that we are in fact a minority, and conduct ourselves accordingly. We need to portray gun owners as responsible people with jobs and families who you stand next to every day and don't notice.

We need to point out to people that if you're standing next to two other average looking people at the grocery store, one of the three of you is a gun owner. If you're a gun owner, be aware that statistically the other to are not, and tread lightly so as not to give them a reason to oppose your ownership of guns. If you are a non gun owner, be aware that the person on your right or left probably is, and you probably can't tell which is which.

There is a very vocal and visible minority of gun owners who tend to shape the image of all gun owners as mostly being irresponsible red necks, or right wingnut extremists. In the long run, that image works against us, as it isn't the votes of the gun owners that decides gun related issues and elections on ballots - it's the votes of the moderates in between who don't own a gun, but who don't object to gun ownership. Being responsible, average people who just happen to own guns and pose no threats won't move them into the anti-gun camp - but it doesn't make many people trodding on their rights, pushing them out of their comfort zone, or portraying gun owners as dangerous, threatening or extremist to get them to vote anti-gun.

Be nice to the moderates - they are the people that keep the anti- gun folks from winning.
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  #59  
Old 08-28-2017, 11:44 AM
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I consider it a solid education on what's going to happen to a lot of people eventually. Everyone says "oh, only in the NE and California, never in my state!"

Last bunch of folks to say that lived in Colorado. Arizona or Nevada's next. Gotta get out and vote in every election--you get the wrong governor, then you lose a commanding majority in the state assembly/senate, and along comes one good tragedy-- you get what we got, overnight.
For a lot of the country it was like that in their state. Maybe some folks just don't remember or are of an age they never knew such conditions. Handgun carry was generally considered an activity for law enforcement and criminals. It's only in the past couple decades that handgun carry has become a more widely accepted practice for average Joe.

For example... Most would consider my home state of Tennessee relatively gun friendly. But take just a short trip down memory lane and look at how draconian our handgun carry laws were.

Here's a short excerpt from Tennessee Firearms Association. It's head-shaking....

Prior to 1989, Tennessee was a limited “open carry” state. Tennessee’s open carry law was limited to “army or navy” pistols but only if such pistols were carried openly in the hand. The statute did not allow citizens to holster the weapons or to carry these types of pistols concealed. A person would have to become a special deputy or receive a special police commission in order carry a handgun that did not fit the “army or navy” designation. These commissions were also necessary if the individual wanted to carry the weapon concealed or holstered.

Oh yeah... legal to carry a handgun...only in the hand.. Beyond that you had to be somebody or know somebody.

Of course we've come a long way in a short time. It can move the other way just as quickly.

Civilian Permits

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Old 08-28-2017, 11:58 AM
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It needs to be more than just getting out and voting. The trend lines on gun ownership are not good when you look back over the last 50 years. In 1972 49.5% of all households had at least one gun. In 2014, that had decreased to 32.4%.



Be nice to the moderates - they are the people that keep the anti- gun folks from winning.
I question the those stats....... lots of folks who didn't own a gun went out and bought themselves one or two..... on several occasions over the past 9 years.............

I don't know about anyone else here .....but if Polled or asked by a medical provider or other "busy body" if I own or have guns in the house..... I just say NO!
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:46 PM
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Default "CORRECT RESPONSE" IF ASKED

They can ask all they want, you are not obligated to answer, (in most cases). I'd rather be in hot water for not answering than lying. NUNYA would also be an acceptable answer IMO.
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:57 PM
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[QUOTE=ChattanoogaPhil;139724795]For a lot of the country it was like that in their state. Maybe some folks just don't remember or are of an age they never knew such conditions. Handgun carry was generally considered an activity for law enforcement and criminals. It's only in the past couple decades that handgun carry has become a more widely accepted practice for average Joe.

LOL...... growing up in the 50s and 60s ....Andy didn't carry a gun and Barnie only had one bullet.................Dad as a Police Lt and Capt. in the "burbs of the Burgh" generally had a gun "handy" but not always visible............
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:53 PM
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It needs to be more than just getting out and voting. The trend lines on gun ownership are not good when you look back over the last 50 years. In 1972 49.5% of all households had at least one gun. In 2014, that had decreased to 32.4%.
I think that we're being under-reported, frankly. Outside of licensed firearms, nothing is really tracked. And if somebody asked you if you have guns in your house--c'mon, what's your response?

Locally, I think our county population is 265k, and I believe that there are 60k pistol permits issued. I think a bigger part of the problem are the 2/3rds of gun owners that own long guns. They're not necessarily on our side--some of them actually support our "SAFE" Act, because for what they do (hunting and trap shooting), they don't see a need for a semiautomatic rifle or a 10-round magazine, and being secretly elitist and a little hoplophobic, conclude nobody else has a need for them either.

The other bits I agree with. I think a lot of people go out of their way to be loud and obnoxious about their ownership. I saw a knucklehead in the supermarket a couple weeks ago with an empty competition-style holster. One of those "barrel plug and a ledge" jobs. Woulda almost been fine, most people wouldn't recognize it as a gun holster. Except he was also wearing an obnoxious shirt.

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Of course we've come a long way in a short time. It can move the other way just as quickly.
We've made some great strides in normalizing concealed carry. Having women be the fastest-growing segment of handgun owners and CCWers is a big victory--bigger than I think the industry realizes. Women set societal norms in our country. What is acceptable to women tends to be what is socially-acceptable. Prohibition happened, in large part, because women got tired of men coming home drunk every day, and decided to do something about it.

Where we falter is what we do with that. I think the industry and the shooting community trivializes female shooters in a lot of ways, and I think that shooters themselves are doing the community a disservice in how they behave and act at the range. It's not a boys' club anymore.

At the same time, I think we work too hard to treat women as being different than male shooters. Yes, there are obvious physical differences, but I also think that there's a strong association in men's minds that a woman shooting must be a new shooter, or in need of coaching (and so many of them really, really don't need any help).

But anyways, Chat, I'd point out that you guys fought for and won concealed carry. In the blue states, the fight is more existential. Yeah, I never thought I'd be able to get a CCW permit, but I worry about where my right to even possess or shoot is going to go. Am I going to have to drive to Vermont to pick up reloading supplies when they figure out I can make my own ammo (internet ammo sales are banned)?

The other deal is, we're still tied to the permit system. Guys raise a ruckus over mental health, orders of protection, and other forms of extrajudicial disarmament--but that's every day for us. The issuing judges can decide to invalidate our permits to own without trial or cause.
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Old 08-29-2017, 06:58 AM
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Where we falter is what we do with that. I think the industry and the shooting community trivializes female shooters in a lot of ways, and I think that shooters themselves are doing the community a disservice in how they behave and act at the range. It's not a boys' club anymore.

At the same time, I think we work too hard to treat women as being different than male shooters. Yes, there are obvious physical differences, but I also think that there's a strong association in men's minds that a woman shooting must be a new shooter, or in need of coaching (and so many of them really, really don't need any help).
In 2016, Tennessee issued 180,000 carry permits (new and renewals). Roughly one in three, 62,000, were issued to women.

The Oct/Nov issue of Handguns (isn't it still August?)-- turn the cover page and there's a full page picture of Julie Golob. There's been a remarkable campaign the last several years to bring women into the firearms world, including 2A rights. Women of the NRA. NRA Women | The Power of Women

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Old 08-29-2017, 08:46 PM
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I agree the community as a whole tends to trivialize women. I used to be a rifle instructor in AZ and I found that teaching women was far easier than teaching men. Guys shown up wanting to prove how much they know, and it's a lot more work to teach them when you first have to demonstrate that they in fact do not shoot all that well and need to unlearn a lot of bad habits.

Women on the other hand, come with open minds and with out the massive ego, and even if they've learned some bad habits, they are much more amenable to trying something different.

I'd rather teach a female than a male any day of the week.

----

We also tend to trivialize people who are more socially liberal than the stereotypical gun owner. There are believe it or not a lot of liberals out there who own, shoot and even concealed carry handguns on a regular basis.

We tend to forget that during the civil rights era in the 1960s the NAACP was a big supporter and promoter of gun rights as it was very much a civil rights issue.

Coming from South Dakota where a concealed carry permit was $5 (although I think it recently went to $10) and took about 3 days to process, to VA and then DC, where the total cost of training, permit, finger print fees, etc is north of $200, In think it is still very much a civil rights issue, given that the high permit costs limit access to individuals with lower incomes, and blacks and hispanics are over represented in the lower income category.

I've also noted a sharp upsurge in my wife's even more liberal friends (mostly female) expressing an interest in buying self defense handguns, trying different handguns and asking for instruction in using a handgun for self defense. That's largely in response to the increased tensions that are evident with protesters and all sides of the issues we're seeing in the paper every day. In some cases they perceive a direct threat, and in some cases they perceive threats to neighbors and friends.

Which is to say that gun rights, self defense and concealed carry are once again seeing an upsurge among liberals. And of course we all run the risk of alienating that interest and losing that political support if we persist in bashing liberals on general principle. We need to consider that when it comes to guns we may actually have common cause and common concerns with a good many of those left leaning folks given the current social climate.
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Old 08-30-2017, 05:41 AM
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We also tend to trivialize people who are more socially liberal than the stereotypical gun owner. There are believe it or not a lot of liberals out there who own, shoot and even concealed carry handguns on a regular basis.
Absolutely. I think that today, we tend to over-generalize segments of the population, especially people we disagree with. Some left-leaning folks are pro-gun. Some aren't pro-gun, but aren't really anti-, either. Then there are folks who are anti-gun, but either don't really know why or who are working off of bad information.

It's sort of amazing how "political" some small clubs want to be. They assume everyone's voting (R). But I think they do their members a disservice--people just aren't interested in injecting politics into their leisure time.

When it gets down to the firing line, it should be all about the guns, and nothing else.
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Old 08-30-2017, 07:39 AM
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I believe there are more gun owners reluctant to answer yes when asked.

Measurable numbers, such as gun carry permits issued and gun sales, have been growing.

In 2008 (as far back as numbers are available) Tennessee issued 35K original handgun carry permits and 22k renewals. in 2016, 72k original and 89k renewals. That's quite an increase and follows a pattern. Permits renewals are 8 years. Lifetime permits have been reduced to $200 so I reckon that's going to be popular among younger folks. Last year it became lawful to have a loaded handgun in the vehicle without a carry permit. It will be interesting to see if that has any affect on permit issuance.

During the past 30 years most of this country has been on a pro-gun trajectory, particularly with gun carry laws. Yet, polls as cited earlier suggest that households with guns have significant shrunk. State lawmakers chasing a shrinking number? At the federal level in the wake of Sandy Hook, the Feds could pass no gun control.

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Old 08-30-2017, 08:54 AM
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I wear oversized t-shirts in summer (for me a Large), or a fleece vest in cooler weather, heavy coat in winter. I have carried in a holster in my pocket. I usually don't even think about it anymore. Ironically, I have a belt clip that I hang my keys on, and jangling keys can be enough of a distraction that no one would think about you having a gun- or a knife in a leather case on your belt would draw more attention than a concealed gun in most cases. It's all about not drawing attention to it, and placing attention elsewhere.
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Old 08-30-2017, 09:01 AM
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Phone Rings at your house and you don't recognize the number. You're bored so you answer anyway.

You: Hello?

Unknown Caller: Hello, Mr. X, I'm Jessie and I'm with Big Name Research Institute and you've been chosen for an important survey. Do you have a few minutes?

You: Sure.

Unknown Caller: Do you support the 2A?

You: Yes.

Unknown Caller: Are you a member of the NRA?

You: Well, I was but not currently.

Unknown Caller: Are there any firearms in your house?

You: Goodbye.

Why on Earth would you tell someone you don't know, can't confirm who they are, and didn't approach yourself if you have firearms in your home?

In the 70s such things were much easier and people were less guarded because we had fewer intrusive regulations and were less fearful of giving information to scammers and thieves. Now, answering questions like those with a stranger is inviting trouble - or at the very least rolling the dice. The numbers obtained via phone survey are invalid, period.
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Old 08-30-2017, 09:16 AM
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Handgun carry was generally considered an activity for law enforcement and criminals. It's only in the past couple decades that handgun carry has become a more widely accepted practice for average Joe.
It has only really been in those last few decades that the NEED to carry just about everywhere by the average Joe has become a necessity. I'm not THAT old, but I remember gun racks in pick-up truck windows with guns in them, keys in the ignition, doors and windows unlocked; being able to walk most anywhere at any time of night (certain neighborhoods excepted) without fear of being robbed, raped or murdered.
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Old 09-04-2017, 01:14 PM
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It has only really been in those last few decades that the NEED to carry just about everywhere by the average Joe has become a necessity. I'm not THAT old, but I remember gun racks in pick-up truck windows with guns in them, keys in the ignition, doors and windows unlocked; being able to walk most anywhere at any time of night (certain neighborhoods excepted) without fear of being robbed, raped or murdered.
I'm not so sure that there is a present NEED, whatever exactly that means. I, too, remember the times (and places) you describe, but I'm not so sure that that doesn't exist today, with the possible exception of locked doors, and even that may not make much difference in some areas. I have walked home alone at midnight weekly for the last two years, without any hint of danger. When walking, I carry primarily because of dogs and coyotes, but I have never been threatened by a coyote, and it has been a few years since I had to face down and outshout a dog. I have never been threatened by a human.

I consider it prudent to take control of one's environment, and I am aware that there is experience different from my own. Probably those who are out and about in drinking environments after dark have a different experience, but I don't think that the world is all that different from before. Maybe we're just a little more careful, having heard on the news what happens to those who aren't.
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Old 09-04-2017, 06:07 PM
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The internet is the big difference, not crime rate. In fact, every source I can find shows crime rate is down. Information transfer is up. Especially knee jerk or panic information transfer.

When I was a kid in the 70's, we heard about robberies from the paper and on the evening news. When someone's car was broken into, it was just that one car. We had to wait until Cronkite told us about it at 6PM. Now, that same robbery is reported on facebook or twitter within minutes of happening. Worse, those that report it usually get the facts wrong. Then, because it gets shared and re-shared thousands of times within minutes, it seems like it's happening all around us all the time.

No, the need is the same. Our communication sources have increased.
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