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Old 08-25-2017, 11:05 AM
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Default how concealed is concealed?

Ok, this question comes from someone who has never carried, but may decide to. I am unsure how to ask it but I will try to be as clear as possible.
Just how much concealment is actually required? I know. from reading forums such as these that most folks want the ultimate of concealment. Given that, what are the parameters of law? Does it really matter, legally, if your sidearm prints a bit and someone notices or your cover item blows open and the weapon can be seen? All of this assumes that the carrier is doing so in an area where going armed is lawful. Outside of calling attention to yourself, does inadvertent printing make a difference?
Thanks
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:14 AM
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State Law ......... controls.

For a quick check/reference ...... see Handgunlaw.us
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
State Law ......... controls.

For a quick check/reference ...... see Handgunlaw.us
This ^ ^ ^

Missouri has a provision for the brief, open display of a concealed firearm to another, so long as it is not done in an angry or threatening manner. Other states are not so forgiving, to my understanding . . .
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:27 AM
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Default Moot point

Most states that have concealed/open carry do not care about
so called "Printing". Once you have open carry, it becomes a moot point.
I never got the "Printing" thing anyway. If you bend over,
twist the wrong way reaching for a case of bud in the local
Walmart you are going to print.
Me, I carry under an oversized short sleeved shirt in the summer.
Blackie
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:28 AM
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Reference your state's laws and see what they say. In some cases the state Attorney General may have also published an opinion on the matter. I second the use of handgunlaws.us as a good reference.

Beyond that, it's whatever you're comfortable with. One thing to mention is that most people new to concealed carry will think their gun is obvious, but for the most part it isn't. Most people, in most situations, could probably carry and effectively conceal larger guns than they think they can, with the right gear/clothing combination. I've concealed a Glock 23 and a S&W 3" 65 very well. I EDC a 642 now partly because it's just easier with a smaller, lighter gun and my current choices are limited to the 642 or a Beretta 92FS (which I haven't ruled out carrying...I just don't have the gear for it right now).

While most people won't notice or care, I do prefer to be as discreet about carrying as possible. A little indistinct bulge here or there isn't a big concern. However, I have seen someone carrying under a polo shirt that was so tight I could tell from him printing that he was carrying a subcompact Glock at a glance; that would be a no-no for me.

But again, that's me. Everybody who carries has to work out what their comfort level is, where their balance point between comfort, concealability, security, and accessibility lie.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:47 AM
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Florida used to be tough, even on a momentary exposure. The law was changed, and is more lenient as long as it is not a deliberate exposure. Illinois, my home state, did pretty much the same.

As far as concealment is concerned, you must dress for the part. If you want to be a fashion plate, carry a whistle, not a handgun. If I don't have a suitable cover garment, I pocket-carry. This works for everything from beach shorts to dress slacks. I can use and IWB with an untucked shirt, preferably loose fitting with a pattern. IMO, tucked over a holster is too much trouble, both when dressing and getting at the beast quickly.
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:54 AM
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It depends. Do you live in an environment like I do where it is normal to see a firearm and most people own one? or do you live somewhere like the "state" next door to me where the mere thought of a firearm causes snowflakes to flip out and call 911?
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mod57 View Post
Just how much concealment is actually required? ...what are the parameters of law?
I read the IL law and it is vague in it's definition of "concealment". No attempt is made to qualify the term. You would probably get more practical advice in class from the CC instructor.

(430 ILCS 66/) Firearm Concealed Carry Act.
"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public or on or about a person within a vehicle.

430ILCS66/Firearm Concealed Carry Act.

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Old 08-25-2017, 12:16 PM
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Good insights and advise from all. Thanks very much. I am moving slowly on the carry issue to make sure it is a viable option for me. With the cost of training here in Illinois I want to get some opinions on the matter from those who do carry.
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Old 08-25-2017, 12:37 PM
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I feel for you I can see Illinois from my front porch but I wouldn't want to live there. I'm thankful that Illinois amended their language on peaceful travel. I spend a lot of time on the Mississippi river and couldn't carry when I crossed into their waters.
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Old 08-25-2017, 12:39 PM
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Consider the other extreme to concealing..."brandishing."

verb...

...wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.

In my case, open display while hunting will not raise an eyebrow. Open display on main street will risk getting my permit yanked. Brandishing ANYWHERE will certainly get my permit yanked.

I don't worry about printing, or accidentally flashing a gun that was obviously intended to be concealed. I can imagine someone being discreetly informed that their concealment wasn't effective, but I think there would have to be a suspicion of intent for it to be brought to the judge's attention.
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Old 08-25-2017, 12:48 PM
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It is advisable to know state requirements, but it also true that people seldom look up from their I phones long enough to see a gun on another person.

If they do see something, they think it is a phone or something.

Your first few days of concealed carry will be jittery, it will go away and no longer even be a consideration if you are reasonably careful.

Also, to be truly trained, you need to do the Wally-Walk as soon as you get your permit.

Rules for the "Wally Walk"

So you got your CHL.

We assumed that you have already chosen a proper holster, mag pouch (or suitable combination of substitutes) and cover garment and played dress-up in front of a mirror a couple of hundred times. But now, it is time to go live in the real world. It is time for you to go to WalMart!

1) You must park your vehicle at least 50 yards from the entrance of a regular WallyWorld (75 yards for a SuperCenter.) As you head for the entrance, you must perform a scan of the area including checking under parked vehicles for BG’s (Bad Guys.) Remember, grandma in an electric wheelchair is not a drive-by threat.

1A). Upon exiting car, surrepititiously adjust sidearm. Now don't touch it again unless your pants are about to fall off. Then tighten your belt

2) You MUST drive the shopping cart. No substitutes are allowed. Negotiating aisles full of screaming kids dropping cans of Chef Boyardee while Mom is on the cell phone and trying the latest Rosie O’Donnell Makeup & Fragrances is a good test of patience and self-control.

3) No quickies! Your stay at WallyWorld must last no less than 45 minutes. You can hang out in automotive and even double check the Rapala lures to see what’s new to kill an allotted rest time of 10 minutes. The rest of the time you must be on the move. An exception is made if you are with your significant other and she goes for the White Sale madness. You must park, wait and be ready to back your mate if things get hairy with the pillow throws or allergenic bedspreads.

4) You are gonna buy stuff so pick items from the top and bottom shelves to test your cover garment. Your mate can assist you and point out any deficiencies. If you are alone and store security or the cops have not arrived by the time you check out, you passed this test.

5) Check out: make sure you choose the busiest register. People will stand in close proximity and you must bear it with patience and avoiding contact. Beware of the people suddenly remembering a forgotten item and sending their mates to fetch it. They usually will brush against you on the way to get it.

6) Meal Time! If your WallyWorld serves Nachos, go ahead and get yourself a big serving of the suckers and wash it down with a Sam’s cola. If McD’s is the choice at the premises, get fries, onion rings, apple pie and a large Coke. ALL MEALS MUST BE CONSUMED ON SITE! No To-Go’s or you will be disqualified.

7) When you leave, repeat the scanning of the parking lot. Remember that now you are also dealing with a shopping cart that rattles like and old train and wants to go right all the time. Do not lose track of your surroundings because of this. If you have a car, open the trunk and introduce all your bags while facing outwards. Pick up Trucks: lower the tailgate and do the same. Keep scanning, you never know where the BG’s might be.

8) REMEMBER: Yellow lights = WallyWorld Security. Red Lights = Cops.

9) - Make test fall on floor in busiest area - near register or anywhere crowded. See if concealment can still be maintained. If you lose that, then return to GO and Do NOT collect $200

10) Restroom break (even if you don't have to go), go through the motions, figure out what your going to do with your gun, while sitting on the commode.

Fifty some years of concealed carry and never discovered yet.
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Old 08-25-2017, 12:56 PM
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Topics like this make me really appreciate living in Arizona. No permit required for carrying, open carry allowed, loaded guns in cars OK, and defensive display allowed.

13-421 - Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
Consider the other extreme to concealing..."brandishing."

verb...

...wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.

In my case, open display while hunting will not raise an eyebrow. Open display on main street will risk getting my permit yanked. Brandishing ANYWHERE will certainly get my permit yanked.

I don't worry about printing, or accidentally flashing a gun that was obviously intended to be concealed. I can imagine someone being discreetly informed that their concealment wasn't effective, but I think there would have to be a suspicion of intent for it to be brought to the judge's attention.
As a person also in the peoples republic of NY who has CC since 1972 I have seen a few things.

A man with two kids under 5 YO had a gun show when he was at a well know fast food restaurant. It was spotted and cops called.

They took his gun and told him they were notifying the judge.
He did loose his permit but that was years ago but in this area I doubt he ever got it back. (Albany)

My definition of concealed means under most circumstances unless searched or wanded its invisible.

Lets face it in cold weather up here you can carry just about anything, in fact for a experiment I carried a 29 4'' for a couple months. Warmer weather makes things more difficult, but the right gun with the right holster and if your not constantly doing a "adjustment" your good to go.

We were at a big regional fair this week with our 5 YO grandchild and went in the law enforcement exhibit. We were there about 15 minuets, they let him in behind the wheel of a cop car and on a AV and snowmobile. They were 3 deputies, 1 high ranking sheriff and 2 state troopers and my pocket carried LCR was not noticed. We talked with and interacted with all those LEOS. That's the way I like it!
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QweekStraw View Post
Most states that have concealed/open carry do not care about
so called "Printing". Once you have open carry, it becomes a moot point.
I never got the "Printing" thing anyway. If you bend over,
twist the wrong way reaching for a case of bud in the local
Walmart you are going to print.
Me, I carry under an oversized short sleeved shirt in the summer.
Blackie
Not really - what you are describing is an inadvertent exposure which - in some states in thew past - was called "brandishing". Printing is where someone carries concealed, but the outline of the gun is visible in their pocket, of through the cover garment they are wearing.
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
My definition of concealed means under most circumstances unless searched or wanded its invisible.
This is my opinion as well. I travel in TX, and they have somewhat adjusted the law to tolerate printing, but I am not comfortable with it.
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:33 PM
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the factual answers to your question may be obtained by contacting your state and/or local police.
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mod57 View Post
Good insights and advise from all. Thanks very much. I am moving slowly on the carry issue to make sure it is a viable option for me. With the cost of training here in Illinois I want to get some opinions on the matter from those who do carry.
Going slowly is good. This is a serious issue and should be undertaken with serious intent.

Cost is a factor, but not the most important factor. Have you had a serious talk with yourself about your ability to kill someone?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
Consider the other extreme to concealing..."brandishing."
In CA there is no law concerning a momentary flash of a concealed gun nor is there anything about printing. Neither is there a "brandishing" law.

What we do have is CA Penal Code 417, "Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel."

Note the absence of phrases like "waving around" or anything like that. What is does have is "rude, angry or threatening" and those are extremely vague terms. What's rude to you might not be rude to me.

So, here, printing or an inadvertent and brief display isn't illegal, but it all depends on the person who sees it and how they interpret the display. Therefore, check your own state laws and KNOW what they say.
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Old 08-25-2017, 03:46 PM
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Some really good advice above. So I will only note that one of the really good truisms found above is that you are going to think everyone sees the gun but, in reality, nobody does.

Quote:
This is my opinion as well. I travel in TX, and they have somewhat adjusted the law to tolerate printing, but I am not comfortable with it.
Texas has open carry now. Printing of a firearm is a non-event if you are licensed to carry. I doubt that this is true in Illinois.

This next item is VERY true and you must think it through:

Quote:
Cost is a factor, but not the most important factor. Have you had a serious talk with yourself about your ability to kill someone?
Concealment of anything but a full sized revolver or pistol is easy and even those guns can be concealed. I carried an N-frame in a cross draw holster under a light jacket during one cross country driving trip and nobody saw it. Admittedly, it was not supremely comfortable but, OTOH, it was supremely comforting - to paraphrase Clint Smith!
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Old 08-25-2017, 03:55 PM
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Texas has open carry now. Printing of a firearm is a non-event if you are licensed to carry.
That is not completely correct. Texas has restrictions on open and concealed carry that are different when it comes to private property. There is what they call "30.06", which forbids CC on the property if properly posted, even if you have a CHL / LTC.
The "30.07" section forbids open carry.

I know a lot of places that post "30.07" signage, but not "30.06". In those cases, you should not be printing / displaying any more than the occasional accident, lest you be invited to leave.

But that is all beside the point to me. I don't want anyone to recognize that I am carrying.
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Old 08-25-2017, 04:52 PM
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A word of advice for those who have not yet concealed carry. The whole concept is that others are unaware that you are armed. This can give you an advantage in some situations. But you must be proficient in both your gun handling skills and your judgement. Initially you will be very conscious of you reason. It does not give you a license to look for trouble or act like a LEO. You will have to live with the results of your actions for the rest of your life. Also keep in mind, that to arriving officers you are just another threat with a gun....

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Old 08-25-2017, 05:38 PM
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As has been said in earlier posts, most people are totally oblivious to any details of what is going on around them. That is a big plus. If you want to keep from drawing attention then don't wear every bit of NRA or firearm advertising gear you own when you are CC. This may not be necessary in gun friendly states but here in NY it is what I do. If someone happens to notice the lump in my cargo short pocket I want the next thought to be- cel phone. Not be speculating b/c of the hat & t-shirt I'm wearing.
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Old 08-25-2017, 06:10 PM
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As has been said in earlier posts, most people are totally oblivious to any details of what is going on around them. That is a big plus. If you want to keep from drawing attention then don't wear every bit of NRA or firearm advertising gear you own when you are CC. This may not be necessary in gun friendly states but here in NY it is what I do. If someone happens to notice the lump in my cargo short pocket I want the next thought to be- cel phone. Not be speculating b/c of the hat & t-shirt I'm wearing.
That made me think of those paracord survival bracelets I've seen. Every time I've seen someone wearing one, my first thought is, "Gun guy." (I've never seen a woman wearing one). Would anyone not familiar with them notice or pay attention? Maybe...maybe not. Something to consider, though. Context and environment should be part of the consideration process, imo.
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Old 08-25-2017, 07:57 PM
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the factual answers to your question may be obtained by contacting your state and/or local police.
Or possibly not. In my limited experience, individual officers may not be conversant with the intricacies of state law and municipal ordinances covering firearms. Better to consult the actual laws and ordinances in your locality. The local district attorney, or a private attorney who specializes in criminal law, may be better sources if you want to ask direct questions. No disrespect to LEOs.
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Old 08-25-2017, 09:06 PM
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the factual answers to your question may be obtained by contacting your state and/or local police.

Not really; his best source would be an attorney in his state who knows the law - most police do not know all the nuances.
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:17 AM
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Cost is a factor, but not the most important factor. Have you had a serious talk with yourself about your ability to kill someone?

While no sane person desires to kill or injure another, in extraordinary conditions, when other options are not available, I believe that I would want to have the means available.
Thanks to all for the very enlightening posts. Good, thought provoking information.
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:03 PM
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the factual answers to your question may be obtained by contacting your state and/or local police.
No disrespect to LEOS intended but in many cases they are not who to ask. Many only know the more important (to them) parts of the law, and what they do not know they improvise and that normally leans to the in many cases a tougher read on things.

I base this on my time as a instructor for the NYS pistol permit safety class, general instructor and long time range officer and member of a few gun clubs

Just recently a friend was stopped, a tail light out and as he knows the drill told the deputy he was armed. Deputy asked where was the gun (ISWB right side) and where was his permit (left side rear pocket) Deputy told him to carefully remove his wallet and get out his permit. My friend very carefully complied.

Gave permit to the deputy and was then told he was carrying illegal as it did not say none restricted on it. This was a younger deputy and all he ever saw was the newer credit card type permits and those in some counties are marked hunting/target shooting only or none restricted. He like me has a much older paper permit and if they are not marked they are in fact none restricted.

Deputy was going to make a report about this and told him he will probably loose his permit for carrying concealed. My friend finely got him to contact the station before he made a mistake as my buddies permit was non restricted. Got told over the radio all was well. There are many more LEOS out there that have never seen a paper permit and lets face it you can talk with them but cannot argue.
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Old 08-27-2017, 10:44 AM
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Concealed carry is mostly about common sense.

It might be worth your time to hang out in your car in the parking lot of a store like Academy, Scheels, Gander Mountain, Cabelas, or Bass Pro Shop where they sell firearms and reloading supplies. These are places that tend to congregate people who conceal carry as many of them are also avid shooters. You'll see the same folks at Walmart or the local grocery store, they are just more highly concentrated in stores that sell guns, ammo and reloading supplies.

In any case, observe people getting out of their vehicles and walking to the door. Here are the things you'll see that will loudly announce "I'm conceal carrying".

1) checking his shirt when you get out of the vehicle and in particular checking one side and not the other (usually right side as 80% of people are right handed).

2) checking his shirt once or twice more on the way into the store.
Bonus points to the guy who looks around to see if anyone noticed him checking his shirt 3 times (feel free to give him a friendly wave when he looks your way.

4) dressing unseasonably warm for the weather just to have cover garment.

5) wearing one of those tactical, photographer or fisherman style vests (unless of course he looks like an actual fly fisherman).

6) dressing like an "operator" complete with logo'd ball cap or t-shirt with a punisher graphic or some sort of tactic-cool graphic. Bonus points for the instructor belt. More bonus points for the slow scan for threats as he walks from car to store. Odds are that guy is carrying even if you don't see any signs of the gun.

-----

After you've figured out some of the more obvious ways not to dress and act by observing the parking lot and the door, go inside as that can be just as educational.

At close range, if you are looking for them, you'll spot the belt loops and belt clips of IWB tuckable holsters where the shirt is tucked in over the handgun. Also note that even though you know what's lurking underneath, no one else is noticing or caring. For example, I was in an elevator once and had a lady ask about the metal belt clip for my IWB holster. She was curios, not suspicious and I told her it was for my TENS unit and we had a nice elevator conversation about back pain. That's the one and only time any one ever remarked on it (I've been conceal carrying for 31 years), and having a ready explanation avoided having a conversation about concealed carry, and would have also covered any visible bulge.

Most people don't go around staring at people's belts. The few folks that see a belt clip or belt loop, won't think twice about it - unless they also conceal carry, or live with someone who conceal carries, and in either case they won't care that you are conceal carrying.

If you look around for people with un tucked shirts and look closely you'll probably spot some folks conceal carrying due to a slight bulge, or perhaps a harder edge printing now and then. Also note that no one is freaking out about that either. The vast majority of people are not going to notice a slight print, particularly if you look like a normal person rather than a potential threat.

There are limits however. The other day I was in a store and I noted an averaged over weight middle aged white guy with an average hair cut and no beard wearing shorts and a polo shirt with an average looking 6 or 7 year old kid beside him. All pretty normal, except he was standing in the gun section of the store looking at handgun ammunition, which prompted me to look at his waistline. Low and behold there was an incredibly obvious bulge under his short caused by his tactical tupperware Kydex OWB holster holding what appeared to be a Glock, based on the shape of the grip printing through the shirt.

I suspect he was fairly new at the whole concealed carry thing. I hope he also shopped two isles down where they had an ample selection of IWB holsters, and also took the time to look at some of their Magellan and Columbia short sleeve shirts that also look nice untucked, are loose enough fitting to fully conceal your handgun, and don't look out of place around town in the summer.

I own a half dozen of those and the fit in well in eastern NC in the summer months. In the winter, I lean more toward my western roots and tend to dress in western boots, jeans, long sleeve shirt, western vest and hat. Even eastern NC has its share of cowboy and ranch types and it's not out of place. The vest covers the handgun, and if people notice anything it's the boots, vest and hat. I get lots of appreciative comments on the boots and hat. No one notices the 2.5" Model 66 or 2.5" 686+ I normally carry in the winter months.

There's no such thing as perfect concealed carry, and there is no one size fits all answer. But you'll seldom go wrong if you dress the way other people around you dress, dress appropriately for the weather, avoid looking like a walking advertisement for 5.11 Tactical, and take care not to do things that suggest you might be carrying a handgun - and the key to that is to not obsess about it. That'll get easier after with time and after a year or two you'll stop thinking about it entirely.
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Old 08-27-2017, 10:49 AM
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The only time I worry about partial concealment is in the post office.
As others have mentioned, it's a state by state issue.

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Old 08-27-2017, 10:52 AM
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I'll agree. This phenomena is primarily due to most young cops, and actually most cops in general, not being gun guys. I know one deputy out of 30 in my county that would be able to answer that question 100% correctly. Everybody else would have to ask him. Of course, this is true about many other areas of the law, such as traffic law, search warrants, surveillances, etc. There's usually one or two fellas on the department who are the go to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
No disrespect to LEOS intended but in many cases they are not who to ask. Many only know the more important (to them) parts of the law, and what they do not know they improvise and that normally leans to the in many cases a tougher read on things.

I base this on my time as a instructor for the NYS pistol permit safety class, general instructor and long time range officer and member of a few gun clubs

Just recently a friend was stopped, a tail light out and as he knows the drill told the deputy he was armed. Deputy asked where was the gun (ISWB right side) and where was his permit (left side rear pocket) Deputy told him to carefully remove his wallet and get out his permit. My friend very carefully complied.

Gave permit to the deputy and was then told he was carrying illegal as it did not say none restricted on it. This was a younger deputy and all he ever saw was the newer credit card type permits and those in some counties are marked hunting/target shooting only or none restricted. He like me has a much older paper permit and if they are not marked they are in fact none restricted.

Deputy was going to make a report about this and told him he will probably loose his permit for carrying concealed. My friend finely got him to contact the station before he made a mistake as my buddies permit was non restricted. Got told over the radio all was well. There are many more LEOS out there that have never seen a paper permit and lets face it you can talk with them but cannot argue.
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Old 08-27-2017, 01:03 PM
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If anybody was to ask about the bulge under my shirt, I would tell them it's my colostomy bag.

That should end the conversation purty quick.
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Old 08-27-2017, 01:10 PM
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Default THE LETTER OF THE LAW VS THE REALITY OF THE MOMENT.

Here in Fl I take concealed as the gun not being visable, printing OK. At times I've simply covered it with a bandana or ball cap, not that it will fool anyone but it is technically concealed. At any time confronted with a LEO I go along with things being what they say they are, at that time/place. The time for debate is with a judge & Lawyers and I'd rather not spend the weekend in a holding cell awaiting a chance to prove my innocence. I don't feel the need to push the envelope or OC, even if legal in a town or shopping mall, just cuz I can.
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Old 08-27-2017, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QweekStraw View Post
Most states that have concealed/open carry do not care about
so called "Printing". Once you have open carry, it becomes a moot point.
I never got the "Printing" thing anyway. If you bend over,
twist the wrong way reaching for a case of bud in the local
Walmart you are going to print.
Me, I carry under an oversized short sleeved shirt in the summer.
Blackie
NC is an open carry state, BUT display can result in a charge of GATTTOP. It is a matter if the court agrees with a prosecutor if the persons exposure of a concealed handgun is terror/threat.

IMO if in a OC state, and a person is going to conceal the guns should stay concealed unless justified otherwise. OC is not a crime in NC, as long as the gun stays holstered. Start playing with it will probably result in at the very least a police detention.
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:10 PM
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Not at all a simple subject. In my location, most of the factors mentioned above apply, not always in the same way. In another location, even in the same state, almost every factor would vary.

In MA, open carry is legal. It's also stupid, because your local chief of police controls the restrictions on your carry permit, and almost controls whether you get one at all. I'm sure that mine does not approve of open carry, because he said so once to a highly reliable source whom I know well. This, while approving the concept of concealed carry.

While BB57 wrote well above about what some folks call shoot-me vests, I don't think that it always applies in all MA locations. I am probably living proof of that, as are others.

I believe that the wide-spread use of cell phones and I-phones has increased the incidence of covered bulges and square edges. This perhaps helps a little when one of us is a little careless.

Your mileage WILL vary if you are in a different location.
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
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NC is an open carry state, BUT display can result in a charge of GATTTOP.
Since I try to live in an AFZ as much as possible, what is GATTTOP ? ? ?
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:22 PM
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I've got a pet Mini-Macaw. She is bright green and loves to sit on my shoulder when I go to the store and a few other places. I've had people look right at me and not see the 16" bird sitting on my shoulder until she moves or says something.

I don't worry about the jframe in my pocket. Just saying!

That being said, check Illinois state law to see what is legal. It differs from state to state.

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Old 08-27-2017, 02:45 PM
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BB57 made some good points....... as did Iggy.................

I've had my licence here in Pa since 1978... after getting out of law school.

Use to wear the infamous "shoot me first vests" a lot....... pockets are great........car keys, reading glasses, honey do list, pager/later a phone....... in the 90s an extra dipper and small pack of wipes.....still use one a lot at the cabin/Laurel Highlands.

these days at 60+; it's oversize LL Bean flannel lined shirts or fishing shirts......pockets ....... got to have pockets........ reading glasses are now a must and sun glasses and phone are needed.... still get shopping/honey do lists..........

Today everyone has bulges under their shirts/suits....... no one notices or cares......just don't fuss with you gun/holster to the point someone asks you what's wrong....... if it happens ...... go with Iggy's answer!!!!!!
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
Since I try to live in an AFZ as much as possible, what is GATTTOP ? ? ?
Going Armed to the Terror of the Public

That's all I know.
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:54 PM
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Since West Virginia's both an open carry and permitless concealed carry state, this is about as concealed as I usually get.
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Old 08-27-2017, 03:03 PM
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Going Armed to the Terror of the Public

That's all I know.
Thanks I probably should have not used an acronym for it.
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Old 08-27-2017, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
No disrespect to LEOS intended but in many cases they are not who to ask. Many only know the more important (to them) parts of the law, and what they do not know they improvise and that normally leans to the in many cases a tougher read on things.

I base this on my time as a instructor for the NYS pistol permit safety class, general instructor and long time range officer and member of a few gun clubs

Just recently a friend was stopped, a tail light out and as he knows the drill told the deputy he was armed. Deputy asked where was the gun (ISWB right side) and where was his permit (left side rear pocket) Deputy told him to carefully remove his wallet and get out his permit. My friend very carefully complied.

Gave permit to the deputy and was then told he was carrying illegal as it did not say none restricted on it. This was a younger deputy and all he ever saw was the newer credit card type permits and those in some counties are marked hunting/target shooting only or none restricted. He like me has a much older paper permit and if they are not marked they are in fact none restricted.

Deputy was going to make a report about this and told him he will probably loose his permit for carrying concealed. My friend finely got him to contact the station before he made a mistake as my buddies permit was non restricted. Got told over the radio all was well. There are many more LEOS out there that have never seen a paper permit and lets face it you can talk with them but cannot argue.
++

if your local police department does not know the laws of your community.... your area maybe..... a ball of confusion.....
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Old 08-27-2017, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlHunt View Post
Going Armed to the Terror of the Public

That's all I know.
Unless you are going around waving a gun in a threatening manner, I wouldn't worry about it.

Here's some information on it:

Going Armed to the Terror of the PeopleNorth Carolina Criminal Law

Here's the basics on this common law offense:

Statute

This is a common law offense. State v. Dawson, 272 N.C. 535, 541-42 (1968); State v. Huntly, 25 N.C. 418, 418 (1843); State v. Staten, 32 N.C. App. 495, 496-97 (1977) (citing Dawson).

Elements

A person guilty of this offense

(1) arms himself or herself with an unusual and dangerous weapon

(2) for the purpose of terrifying others and

(3) goes about on public highways

(4) in a manner to cause terror to the people.

Punishment

Class 1 misdemeanor. G.S. 14-3(a).
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Old 08-27-2017, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
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++

if your local police department does not know the laws of your community.... your area maybe..... a ball of confusion.....
Heck; get real, if they knew all the criminal laws and civil ordinances they enforce, their nuance's and every applicable court rulings on those laws......... they would be called "super lawyers" not cops.

Most officers in my "burb of the Burgh" probably haven't run into a gun toting local. IIRC in Pa. only 7% of the adult population has CC permits.....bet 80-90% of those here don't carry on a regular basis..... so maybe a hundred or less are carrying on a regular basis..... and that strikes me as a high number.....
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Old 08-27-2017, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
Heck; get real, if they knew all the criminal laws and civil ordinances they enforce, their nuance's and every applicable court rulings on those laws......... they would be called "super lawyers" not cops.

Most officers in my "burb of the Burgh" probably haven't run into a gun toting local. IIRC in Pa. only 7% of the adult population has CC permits.....bet 80-90% of those here don't carry on a regular basis..... so maybe a hundred or less are carrying on a regular basis..... and that strikes me as a high number.....
Pa is a pretty big state. I wouldn't be surprised if we had 100 CC's from Pa on this sight alone. It shouldn't be too hard for someone else to look up.
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Old 08-27-2017, 04:32 PM
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From time to time concealed carry permit holders express concern for "brandishing" a firearm and fear that an LEO seeing their concealed firearm "print" could result in this charge.

Anything's possible, however in most jurisdictions "brandishing" means to display, show or exhibit the firearm in a manner which another person might find threatening. And in most jurisdictions it's also means you displayed it for reasons other than self defense.

Generally speaking mere printing, or having the wind blow a cover garment off your firearm is not going to be considered brandishing as neither of those acts involve any intention to threaten anyone.

On the other hand, if people reported you as "waving" or showing your gun around, the police responding to the "man with a gun" report are most likely going to arrest the man with the gun and let the court sort it out, so there's value in being discreet.

If you however are angry, and displaying a firearm, your angry behavior in combination with just having a gun will usually be sufficient to convict you on a brandishing charge. If you are going to carry a firearm, you need to understand that you've essentially forfeited your right to be angry with people and yell at people, shake your fist at idiot drivers, etc, because it will put you in a very bad light if your gun then has to come out in a situation you'll be viewed as having started.

And of course if you intentionally lift your shirt to expose the firearm for the purpose of intimidating someone (and are not doing it in a legitimate use of self defense), most officers are going to consider that a crime and arrest you for it.

Check your state laws to see to what extent self defense is or is not a justification for "brandishing". In VA for example the law states:

[I]It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.

I added the high lights to the parts that address the "reasonably induce fear" element and the justification for self defense.
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Old 08-27-2017, 04:43 PM
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Default Pa CC #'s

Per yahoo, as of 12/31/2011 Fl was #1 (there's a good reason it's called the gunshine state) ACTIVE CC licenses Fl 887,000, #2 THEN was Pa with 786,000. "Current #'s (2015)" Fl still #1 with almost 1.5 million & Tx #2 with app 1/2 that many, Pa was in the top 5.
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Old 08-27-2017, 04:49 PM
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Ok, this question comes from someone who has never carried, but may decide to. I am unsure how to ask it but I will try to be as clear as possible.
Just how much concealment is actually required? I know. from reading forums such as these that most folks want the ultimate of concealment. Given that, what are the parameters of law? Does it really matter, legally, if your sidearm prints a bit and someone notices or your cover item blows open and the weapon can be seen? All of this assumes that the carrier is doing so in an area where going armed is lawful. Outside of calling attention to yourself, does inadvertent printing make a difference?
Thanks
It depends on your local statutes.

Most jurisdictions have some form of open carry these days. If that's the case in your area, then some very occasional exposure isn't a huge deal. Just don't be one of those guys with a muscle-T so tight you can read the gun's serial number through it.

What you don't want is for the gun to be visible all the time. Concealment itself is a form of retention--if somebody doesn't know you have a gun, it's very difficult for them to grab it off you when you're not looking.

In a few states and cities, there's no provision for open carry. In those, what you'd be liable for is very much at the discretion of whatever law enforcement officer you're dealing with. In some places, that might mean an embarrassing "Hey buddy, your gun is showing" conversation. In others--and especially if you're just a jerk that made zero effort to conceal--you could be taking a ride, and lose your license. It depends on how supportive of CCW your local chief law enforcements are (your sheriff, the Chief of Police, the mayor, the State Police, etc). Sometimes it even makes a difference where you are. There's no open carry in my state, but if you hit a diner in the boonies during hunting season, you sure wouldn't know that.

There are also some "gray areas". Some establishments might decide to ask you to leave. Ditto for malls and officious mall cops. Or you might find yourself in a literal gray area. For instance, many states don't allow concealed carry on municipal property, but the actual statute is poorly-worded. What counts as a municipal property? Does a public park count? How about a county library? Are the parking lots included? If you're going to carry there, best to be really concealed, and limit your activities to prevent exposure.

Point being, they sure don't make it easy for you.
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Old 08-27-2017, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYLakesider
Gave permit to the deputy and was then told he was carrying illegal as it did not say none restricted on it. This was a younger deputy and all he ever saw was the newer credit card type permits and those in some counties are marked hunting/target shooting only or none restricted. He like me has a much older paper permit and if they are not marked they are in fact none restricted.

Deputy was going to make a report about this and told him he will probably loose his permit for carrying concealed. My friend finely got him to contact the station before he made a mistake as my buddies permit was non restricted. Got told over the radio all was well. There are many more LEOS out there that have never seen a paper permit and lets face it you can talk with them but cannot argue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins
I'll agree. This phenomena is primarily due to most young cops, and actually most cops in general, not being gun guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vytoland View Post
++

if your local police department does not know the laws of your community.... your area maybe..... a ball of confusion.....
Lemme pop in here and explain some of the insanity we deal with up here, mebbe stick up for this young deputy and such.

Now, young guys like me have the "new" style NY pistol permit. It's a plastic card, like a driver's license, issued by the county you're a resident of (so yes, each county has a different version!). On the back is a listing of all the handguns you own (at least when you got the license). So yes, this means there are guys that have two (or more) cards to fit all their guns.

In some counties--including the one that I presume NYL's buddy lives in, mine--it comes marked either "Hunting and Target" or "Unrestricted". Since the State of NY doesn't differentiate between a "license to own" and a "license to carry", the judges who issue such permits decided to place an "additional restriction" on them. The legality of that is questionable, but since the issuing of permits is at their discretion, nobody's gonna fight them on it. Anyways, a "Hunting and Target" permit means that you can own a pistol, and can technically carry it concealed on your way to or from--you guessed it--Hunting or Target Shooting.

Yes, this means there are a few complete morons that drive around with a concealed pistol, and a pair of earmuffs tossed in the back of the truck. "I'll just tell the cop I'm on the way to this or that range!", they've told me. Sounds like a a great way to treat a cop like he's as dumb as you are, buddies, and wind up with your hat in your hands begging the judge to keep your guns.

Lately around here, and in a few other counties, you can either apply or take a class and apply to get an "Unrestricted" permit. This means that you can carry concealed inside of what NYS allows you--no municipal buildings, no schools, that sort of thing.

Now, if you're a bit older than me (they stopped issuing these, I think, around 2010 or so), you might have a paper license, scrawled with "Hunting and Target". Depending on how many permits your county issues, some are hand-written, and some they went all out and got a stamp for. Anyways, same deal as the new plastic ones. On the back, you'll find a listing of all the guns that person owns. Again--there are a whole bunch of them, one for each county.

Comedy of comedies, when you get a new gun, do you know what they want you to do? Just write it on the back! The hell's the point?

Now, if you're chronologically-gifted, you might actually have a permit that predates the "Hunting and Target" restriction. These permits aren't marked at all, and as such, are an "unrestricted" license. You don't run into too many, since all the guys that have them are getting up there in the years. Old folk get don't get stopped by the cops too much, and old gun-ownin' folk get stopped even less cuz they're a law-abidin' sort. Even fewer carry, so no reason to have to show their licenses.

On top of all this, not every county bothered with the restriction. Some just passed out unrestricted licenses like hotcakes. Hell, some counties hand out pre-signed license amendments so you can buy a pistol and take it home the same day! Imagine that. Most others, you see, you buy the gun or put a deposit down, get the receipt, take it or mail it to the sheriff's, wait two or three weeks, get the amendment in the mail, then pick up your gun.

So yes--I can totally see this deputy not seeing an "Unrestricted" and getting all hopped-up. Mostly, they got better things to pay attention to than checking our licenses all the time, so I'll forgive him. I mean, wouldn't be that hard to wipe the "H&T" ink off an old license. Come to think of it, the only people that have ever looked at mine are the guys that sell me my guns, and Mrs Bowen up at the Sheriff's office.

Even worse, a lot of these guys with the old "grandfathered"...heh, literally...licenses moved to new counties, the nerve of 'em. So now the perennial question is, do I get a new license in my new county like I'm supposed to, and risk losing my "Unrestricted" permit!

And comedy of comedies, the state is supposed to be computerizin' all the records of all the counties, all of which are currently on paper files. GL with that, m8s.

Last edited by Wise_A; 08-27-2017 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 08-27-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Lemme pop in here and explain some of the insanity we deal with up here, mebbe stick up for this young deputy and such.

Now, young guys like me have the "new" style NY pistol permit. It's a plastic card, like a driver's license, issued by the county you're a resident of (so yes, each county has a different version!). On the back is a listing of all the handguns you own (at least when you got the license). So yes, this means there are guys that have two (or more) cards to fit all their guns.

In some counties--including the one that I presume NYL's buddy lives in, mine--it comes marked either "Hunting and Target" or "Unrestricted". Since the State of NY doesn't differentiate between a "license to own" and a "license to carry", the judges who issue such permits decided to place an "additional restriction" on them. The legality of that is questionable, but since the issuing of permits is at their discretion, nobody's gonna fight them on it. Anyways, a "Hunting and Target" permit means that you can own a pistol, and can technically carry it concealed on your way to or from--you guessed it--Hunting or Target Shooting.

Lately around here, and in a few other counties, you can either apply or take a class and apply to get an "Unrestricted" permit. This means that you can carry concealed inside of what NYS allows you--no municipal buildings, no schools, that sort of thing.

Now, if you're a bit older than me (they stopped issuing these, I think, around 2010 or so), you might have a paper license, like this (sorry for the large image size):



See how it's scrawled with "Hunting and Target"? Depending on how many permits your county issues, some are hand-written, and some they went all out and got a stamp for. Anyways, same deal as the new plastic ones. On the back, you'll find a listing of all the guns that person owns. Again--there are a whole bunch of them! The above is an Albany County permit, which is a little different from the ones in adjacent counties.

Comedy of comedies, when you get a new gun, do you know what they want you to do? Just write it on the back! The hell's the point?

Now, if you're chronologically-gifted, you might actually have a permit that predates the "Hunting and Target" restriction. These permits aren't marked at all, and as such, are an "unrestricted" license. You don't run into too many, since all the guys that have them are getting up there in the years. Old folk get don't get stopped by the cops too much, and old gun-ownin' folk get stopped even less cuz they're a law-abidin' sort. Even fewer carry, so no reason to have to show their licenses.

On top of all this, not every county bothered with the restriction. Some just passed them out like hotcakes. Hell, some counties hand out pre-signed license amendments so you can buy a pistol and take it home the same day! Imagine that. Most others, you see, you buy the gun or put a deposit down, get the receipt, take it or mail it to the sheriff's, wait two or three weeks, get the amendment in the mail, then pick up your gun.

So yes--I can totally see this deputy not seeing an "Unrestricted" and getting all hopped-up. Mostly, they got better things to pay attention to than checking our licenses all the time. I mean, wouldn't be that hard to wipe the "H&T" ink off an old license. Come to think of it, the only people that have ever looked at mine are the guys that sell me my guns, and Mrs Bowen up at the Sheriff's office.

Even worse, a lot of these guys with the old "grandfathered"...heh, literally...licenses moved to new counties, the nerve of 'em. So now the perennial question is, do I get a new license in my new county like I'm supposed to, and risk losing my "Unrestricted" permit!

And comedy of comedies, the state is supposed to be computerizin' all the records of all the counties, all of which are currently on paper files. GL with that, m8s.
Bolded, That's me, got my (clean) permit in Albany county early 70s.

When I retired and moved up to what was my camp at the lake transferred to Saratoga .Made it a point to double check with Mrs Bowen about our(wife also) unrestricted permits. Also a year ago or so I rechecked it with the new records boss. Just for the heck of it I learned about Mulligan VS Williams years ago,.

Thanks for jumping in, I realize this nonsense means nothing to people that live in free states, but it behooves people in this (Safe Act) state to be well up on the law!
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:09 PM
Model520Fan Model520Fan is offline
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Pa is a pretty big state. I wouldn't be surprised if we had 100 CC's from Pa on this sight alone. It shouldn't be too hard for someone else to look up.
The site you cited is actually a site, not a sight, but maybe this belongs on some other thread.
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