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  #51  
Old 09-09-2017, 04:25 PM
arnoob arnoob is offline
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Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense.  
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Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Please stop shooting at me... I need to take a measurement.

Yeah screw physics and fact based choices based on actual test data, it's all witchcraft anyway.

Last edited by arnoob; 09-09-2017 at 06:22 PM.
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  #52  
Old 09-10-2017, 06:53 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
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Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense.  
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Obviously no one is going to measure the distance prior to defending themselves, but distance is a factor. If the bad guy is further than 25 yards or so, it's very difficult to say that you had no opportunity to escape. I'm not saying it can't happen. Just that it's difficult to defend.
I've said it (more than) once, I'll say it again.

25 yards can be covered pretty quickly. Trying to run away from an attacker is tantamount to betting your life on a foot race, because the act of trying to run makes it more difficult to defend yourself. You have to turn around to even start, and you might have less distance.

What matters more, to my mind, is the proximity and accessibility of a safe place. For instance, I'd bet that I can run 25 yards before most people can dig their keys out of their pockets, unlock their car doors, and get inside. In other words, they can be standing right next to a "safe place", but it's no accessible.

Take a look around sometime in public. Where's the nearest place you can go and lock the door behind you? Going over my daily routine, I can think of maybe two or three places that have a bathroom door that locks, and is substantial enough to resist being kicked-in. Beyond that--I'd be counting on my attacker to give up the chase because he didn't feel like running or there were other people around or something.

The other half the equation is what the threat/attacker is doing. There's a big difference between a guy that's just standing there being a malcontent, a guy that's swearing at you, and a guy that's waving a knife and walking towards you.

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Originally Posted by arnoob
Yeah screw physics and fact based choices based on actual test data, it's all witchcraft anyway.
Here's what I consider funny.

The Tueller drill was developed because people literally argued that it was wrong to shoot a guy armed with a knife if he was outside of arm's reach. So these guys did a test to show that, in a rough average of how long a practiced person in good shape could draw and fire a pistol, another person (not necessarily in good shape) could easily run 21 feet and stab them.

Fast-forward, we now have people explaining how it's wrong to shoot someone further than 7/10/15/25 yards, and snidely using the Tueller drill to justify it, because they don't understand what exactly that data shows.

The Tueller drill illustrates a principle: that a threat doesn't have to be immediate to be imminent and unavoidable. It does not make your judgment calls for you.
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  #53  
Old 09-10-2017, 04:23 PM
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KSDeputy KSDeputy is offline
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Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense.  
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I live in the country, and used to think of one of my AR's as a home defense weapon. Now that I have a new Remington 870 Tac 14, it is my home defense weapon.
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  #54  
Old 09-10-2017, 05:36 PM
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Rastoff Rastoff is offline
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Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense.  
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
25 yards can be covered pretty quickly. Trying to run away from an attacker is tantamount to betting your life on a foot race, because the act of trying to run makes it more difficult to defend yourself. You have to turn around to even start, and you might have less distance.
Hold the phone a minute. You've changed the threat to suit your argument.

My statement about 25 yards and longer being difficult to defend is based on someone shooting 25 yards or more. If a guy is shooting at you from 25 yards or more, there's plenty of cover in the real world. None of it is good, but all of it is better than standing still in the open. You're welcome to make yourself a stationary target if you like, but I'm moving.

But you've changed it to a knife wielding psycho who's running toward you. This is a completely different scenario. First of all, if this bad guy is 25 yards when you recognize the threat, as soon as you start to do anything, he's not at 25 yards, is he? In fact, by the time you're able to take any action, he's a lot closer and that is defensible.


This is the trouble with an open ended question like the op. There's all kinds of scenarios. However, since the original question was, "...what is the furthest distance that you would justify using your AR for defense purposes?" I'm going to stick by my answer. Taking a shot more than 25 yards is going to be difficult to defend.
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Old 09-10-2017, 07:56 PM
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TomkinsSP TomkinsSP is offline
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Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense.  
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If what is meant is that MOST civvie defensive shootings are "close encounters of the nasty kind" I wholeheartedly agree. If you are walking down Oak Street and accosted by an evolutionarilly challeged piece of refuse, there is a limited distance at which you will be considered responsible and reasonable to fire upon the threat. Even in a state that allows you to "stand your ground" moving to cover if possible is just plain smart.

But the OP did not specify a "median" enounter. What was the distance the University of Texas shooter was engaging targets at? If you took a 'Hail Mary' shot at him from 200 yards would ANYONE question that choice. (Looked it up R.D.Schmidt 500 YARDS distant was the person FURTHEST from ********* to die. This was from the much derided M-1 carbine.)

One size just cannot fit all.
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  #56  
Old 09-11-2017, 04:44 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
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Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense.  
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Hold the phone a minute. You've changed the threat to suit your argument.

My statement about 25 yards and longer being difficult to defend is based on someone shooting 25 yards or more. If a guy is shooting at you from 25 yards or more, there's plenty of cover in the real world. None of it is good, but all of it is better than standing still in the open. You're welcome to make yourself a stationary target if you like, but I'm moving.

But you've changed it to a knife wielding psycho who's running toward you. This is a completely different scenario. First of all, if this bad guy is 25 yards when you recognize the threat, as soon as you start to do anything, he's not at 25 yards, is he? In fact, by the time you're able to take any action, he's a lot closer and that is defensible.


This is the trouble with an open ended question like the op. There's all kinds of scenarios. However, since the original question was, "...what is the furthest distance that you would justify using your AR for defense purposes?" I'm going to stick by my answer. Taking a shot more than 25 yards is going to be difficult to defend.
I was always figuring on a knife, blunt weapon, or plain old hands and feet.

If you're being shot at, then there's no question. It doesn't take skill, talent, or practice to hit a man-sized target at 25 yards. All it takes is a couple tries. I'd be willing to bet that as many people have died to lucky (or unlucky) shots, as to expertly-executed marksmanship.

Moving to cover first isn't a matter of what's legally-defensible, it's simply smart. The true first rule of gunfighting is, after all, not to get shot.

Once cover is achieved, then the question becomes one of balancing available ammunition against the probability of a hit. There's no sense expending all of your ammunition on low-probability shots, and having nothing to defend yourself with when the guy presses in to 15 or 10 yards.

Hence why longer-distance shooting ability is so underrated. If one can reliably hit at 25 yards, he can keep his attacker further away, and lessen the chance of being hit himself.

In other words--I don't think it matters one good whit how far away an attacker is shooting from. Both skillful and lucky shots are immediate and imminent dangers. What matters is how far away you can deliver accurate fire.

Last edited by Wise_A; 09-11-2017 at 04:47 AM.
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  #57  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:02 PM
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snuffy51 snuffy51 is offline
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Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense. Question for those who use an AR for self defense.  
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Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Tennessee does not place the burden on the victim to prove they couldn't flee. Law abiding citizens (provided they have a legal right to be where they are) can use deadly force anywhere, at home or away, as long as there's "a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury." It's generally referred to as stand your ground. Not all states are like this. Some states place the burden on the victim to otherwise prove it wasn't reasonable to flee.
Read the above again. As far as a long range attack, if you even know it, means you're not already dead and should find a hole as quickly as possible. I've read all the posts in this thread, and ya'll are either going to worry yourselves to death or need to move or change your lifestyles. You can only protect yourself from something you can see. Superman is a fairytale.
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  #58  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:40 AM
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... Looked it up R.D.Schmidt 500 YARDS distant was the person FURTHEST from ********* to die. This was from the much derided M-1 carbine. ...
People better stop deriding the M-1 Carbine! Seriously, it is excellent when used in its intended role. But even an admirer such as myself would have to say a hit, much less a deadly hit, at 500 yards was a lucky shot.
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