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Old 09-07-2017, 10:49 AM
SCAR333 SCAR333 is offline
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Default Question for those who use an AR for self defense.

For those of you who use an AR for home/self defense, what is the furthest distance that you would justify using your AR for defense purposes?
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Old 09-07-2017, 10:54 AM
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Depends on how far away the *** who started shooting at me is.
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Old 09-07-2017, 10:59 AM
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However far away it is that I'm still in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury . . .
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Old 09-07-2017, 11:19 AM
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very fluid answer.........................

For example: if you are standing in your yard and you shoot a man with any rifle 200 yds away ......if on investigation they find him with a rifle and brass around the body and matching holes in you house..... you might be OK if you have a castle doctrine in you state..........................if he has a shotgun,handgun, knife or club/rock.............. not so much.....in declining order!

See Muss Muggins answer.


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Old 09-07-2017, 11:33 AM
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Depending on your property plus other things. For me it would be the distances inside my house. Others have land and barns and other buildings as well as their state laws.

No one answer

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Old 09-07-2017, 11:36 AM
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Folks typically don't choose an AR as a home defense weapon because they can reach out to 300 yards. They choose it because:

1. Ammo capacity
2. Shoulder fired weapon is easier to get hits with than a pistol. Add a red dot an there are no sights to line up. Put the dot on the target and squeeze the trigger.
3. AR-15 with collapsible stock is more compact than a Remington 870 with 18" barrel.

I'm sure there are many more reasons as well, but these are the big ones.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:06 PM
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Personally i don't think i would pick an AR as my first choice for home defense.. Maybe better suited for property defense against wild animals or wild criminal element that threatened me. But i would first, and is always a good idea first to remove yourself from the situation before shooting. Thats hard to do if your sleeping and someone is in your house. I could see using an AR if your home was under attack from the outside. Would be afraid of overpenetration inside. I see an AR as a defense weapon but at longer range rather than down a hallway for us average people. I know, i know, cops use these inside homes and i get it. I guess it would depend who is living on the other side of the house. And usually cops are on the planned offensive and not on a surprise defensive when breaching a residence. But a threat is a threat at any distance. If someone is shooting at you from 200 yards away, take cover, use and AR i guess unless you can escape.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:09 PM
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If I am in a situation where I can dodge/duck behind cover/run and get away safe, I won't shoot. If I am flat-footed and in the open, I'll return fire until I can beat feat. My aim in being armed is to survive, not take an objective or kill a bad guy.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:15 PM
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I wouldn't want to fire an AR indoors in a small room, especially in the dark - might as well use a flash bang grenade
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:35 PM
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Would be afraid of overpenetration inside.
Use of proper bullets lowers this risk. Defensive ammo for an AR penetrates less walls than 9mm or 00 buck.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:38 PM
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I wouldn't want to fire an AR indoors in a small room, especially in the dark - might as well use a flash bang grenade
Your hearing is definitely going to take a hit... but beats the potential alternative.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Use of proper bullets lowers this risk. Defensive ammo for an AR penetrates less walls than 9mm or 00 buck.
like? Brand, grain, etc....

We did some testing at my club on drywall and studs and usually hollow points from a 9mm and 45 went thru without an issue but did see them stop a whole lot sooner than rifle rounds. Home defense is a good pump shotgun with #2 or #4
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Old 09-07-2017, 02:24 PM
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Check your state laws. For self defense/CCW in my state it's like 20 feet. Anything beyond that and you have the opportunity to evade the situation (so they say). That kind of scenario has too many variables in a rule of law situation. Define the parameters of your question a little better and you may get more helpful answers.
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Old 09-07-2017, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter991 View Post
like? Brand, grain, etc....

We did some testing at my club on drywall and studs and usually hollow points from a 9mm and 45 went thru without an issue but did see them stop a whole lot sooner than rifle rounds. Home defense is a good pump shotgun with #2 or #4
Try some of the Hornady TAP (non barrier) or Hornady FTP, 55 gr. Don't get me wrong, these will still penetrate walls, but should start to fragment and loose energy sooner than buckshot or typical handgun rounds.

I used to subscribe to the pump shotgun theory, but the AR has it's place. My wife can handle an AR much easier than the shotgun. Less recoil, more capacity, and no need to pump... follow up shots are quicker.
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Old 09-07-2017, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter991 View Post
like? Brand, grain, etc....

We did some testing at my club on drywall and studs and usually hollow points from a 9mm and 45 went thru without an issue but did see them stop a whole lot sooner than rifle rounds. Home defense is a good pump shotgun with #2 or #4
Both the FBI and Gunsite have found during testing that soft point and hollow point .223 bullets fired from a rifle penetrate less than handgun rounds in building materials. Google "Detailed Information Regarding Penetration Of .223 Ammunition"by R.K. Taubert.

Having been a member of several gun clubs over the years I'll choose to believe scholarly testing done by FBI ballistics experts.
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Old 09-07-2017, 02:50 PM
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I no longer use nor see a need for an AR, but such thing are always situationally dependent and for me it would almost certainly would be very close range.

For legal and ethical reasons, I would highly recommend avoiding shooting someone if at all possible no matter where you live or what your local laws happen to be. If you follow that advice, the odds of a civilian ever needing to make a long range shot with an AR-15 or any firearm are so astronomically low that it isn't really worth giving it much thought as there are so much more important things to focus on in terms of personal defense.
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Old 09-07-2017, 03:47 PM
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First,on the noise issue,on reading up on ar's for home defense,they say to keep electronic ear protection with your rifle,protects you from the noise and you can still hear low sounds.On distance antything in my house or yard,I live in Texas where we have the castle doctrine.
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Old 09-07-2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter991 View Post
like? Brand, grain, etc....
This has been studied, and written up, extensively. Rather than my wasting the evening writing a detailed response, just Google ".223 wall penetration" and you'll get a boatload of info.
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Old 09-07-2017, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
SCAR333 wrote:
...what is the furthest distance that you would justify using your AR for defense purposes?
Indoors: 21 feet. The furthest distance I could be from my adversary.

Outdoors: 225 yards. This is the furthest distance that I regularly shoot and so it's about as far as I would feel confident I would hit a target.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Hunter991 wrote:
Would be afraid of overpenetration inside.
How do you define "over-penetration" (as opposed to mere "penetration") in this context?

In standard residential construction (16 inch o/c framing) 85% of a wall is nothing more than two pieces of 1/2 inch gypsum wallboard separated by a 3.5 inch air gap. Virtually any gun you're likely to feel comfortable betting your life on is going to penetrate that if fired from a gun held perpendicular to the plane of the wall.

But, in a shoot-out it is unlikely anyone will be firing perpendicular to the wall. And when we start talking about oblique angles, bullet velocity, shape, construction, and angle or impact are all going to govern whether - and how far - the bullet penetrates. Thus, outside of laboratory controlled test conditions, nobody can say that bullet "X" will penetrate a wall while bullet "Y" will not.
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Old 09-08-2017, 01:42 AM
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If you live in a remote area and someone is taking shots at you from long distance shooting back may not be a bad idea. But that is a very unlikely scenario for most people.
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Old 09-08-2017, 01:57 AM
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Out here in the country, depends on how far away the guy is that's shooting me or trying to cause harm to my family.

There was that guy in Texas a few years back who killed a guy shooting at a cop at 165 yards...with a handgun. And no one I know of took umbrage over the distance or lack of imminent threat to his own person.
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:51 AM
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Well, those zombies walk pretty slowly, so enjoy your coffee first, then start shooting. Start when they get to about the 50 yard mark and work your way back from there. It should be no problem hitting them at 300 yards plus even with a red dot. It would all be justified too, because, you know, zombies can eat you.
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:58 AM
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regardless of what the FBI says or the internet says, a bullet traveling at 3000 fps will penetrate drywall and go thru. So will a 9mm and a 45 acp. Like i said, we did testing and there wasn't a clear winner here, all would have been deadly at 21 feet on targets behind the wall. We did see a 115 gr 9mm HP having weak penetration but still enough to cause damage behind the wall.
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Old 09-08-2017, 10:49 AM
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regardless of what the FBI says or the internet says, a bullet traveling at 3000 fps will penetrate drywall and go thru. So will a 9mm and a 45 acp. Like i said, we did testing and there wasn't a clear winner here, all would have been deadly at 21 feet on targets behind the wall. We did see a 115 gr 9mm HP having weak penetration but still enough to cause damage behind the wall.
If you are looking for a magic projectile that will penetrate flesh and bone to hit vitals but is stopped by a piece of sheetrock, well, that doesn't exist.

How did you determine what would have been "deadly at 21 feet on targets behind the wall"? You think your testing is more scientific than that of the FBI?
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Old 09-08-2017, 10:57 AM
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For those of you who use an AR for home/self defense, what is the furthest distance that you would justify using your AR for defense purposes?
This is actually kinda hard to answer..

I see you said "Self Defense", but you didn't specify IN a House.. (at home yes, but IN? your home?)

So I'm thinking Self Defense while in a house, is obviously not relevant or the question.. I seriously doubt any of us have a house so large, that an AR would fail to reach the other end.. LOL

So I'm gonna go with a SHTF type situation where their is major civil unrest etc..

So lets suppose I live way out on the country, surrounded by open land..

My Answer for that would depend on How many people I needed to defend my self against?..

If only one, or maybe two?
And they were say 100, or so yards away, I'd likely go with something else to take them down..

Now if I looked out, and had 20 people making a mad dash for my house from that distance, I would grab my AR, due to capacity..
Even if it is not as Accurate as another option, I'd be able to blast a LOT of rounds in their direction quickly, and surely be able to get them before they reached my house..

Anyway, when it comes to self defense while at home IN my house, there are too many variables for me to honestly answer with an absolute..

How many people do I need to defend my self against?

How much time do I have to prepare?

WHERE in my house am I, (IF? it was a totally unexpected crash through my door situation?).

Do I have a house full of people and someone crashed in with a gun to shoot people?

And the list goes on..

About the only thing I can say really, is that if for example, Someone started pounding on my door yelling threats, then boom, kicked my door open. there is about a 99.9% chance I would be using my Pistol..

But if I heard, or seen a GROUP of people in my front yard making a run at my door? well... out would come my AR..

All that said.. and at the risk of sounding like a nut job.. LOL

My house is a ranch style.. My bedroom is down a hall at the end of the house, and my front door is near the opposite end of the house
And... I have actually mapped the wall studs from my bedroom, to my front door.. LOL!!

In a real actual unexpected situation, the information would be useless really, but.. yeah, I got bored one day, and wanted to know if I could make a shot from my room, to my front door, without hitting a wall stud.. and yes, yes I can.. LOL!

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Old 09-08-2017, 11:17 AM
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In a real actual unexpected situation, the information would be useless really, but.. yeah, I got bored one day, and wanted to know if I could make a shot from my room, to my front door, without hitting a wall stud.. and yes, yes I can.. LOL!
How many walls do you have to go through? And is your shot perpendicular to the wall? If not how do you account for bullet deflection?
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Old 09-08-2017, 12:12 PM
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two walls.. drywall..
and blasting enough rounds, will cover any deflection
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Old 09-08-2017, 03:12 PM
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If you are looking for a magic projectile that will penetrate flesh and bone to hit vitals but is stopped by a piece of sheetrock, well, that doesn't exist.

How did you determine what would have been "deadly at 21 feet on targets behind the wall"? You think your testing is more scientific than that of the FBI?
i think you are completely missing the point. I am saying that a .223 or 5.56 will penetrate drywall the same as most any round inside a house. Again, i could give a damn what the fbi says about it. I don't subscribe to that stuff. A simple .223 round we tested went thru 2 pieces of drywall a stud and into 2 water jugs. So if you think the Fbi saying that it penetrates less, good for them. It penetrates enough to someone on the other side of that wall. There is no round that isn't going to be dangerous to someone on the other side from any firearm except maybe some high end frangible bullet. But to say an AR is the best home defense isn't necessarily true or trying to defend that it is.. Its a false sense of security. Know what is on the other side because any round will most likely go thru. There isn't a way to say it will 100% penetrate less than a 9mm.. simple not fact. If it penetrates drywall, stud and water filled jugs, I think it would kill someone on the other side or severely injure them. So yah, i stand by my statement that an AR may NOT be the best indoor defense weapon. It may be right for some, but certainly not everyone. Its why i suggested checking out a 20 gauge with #4 shot as a better choice for some.

but to say its good or better cuz it penetrates less, well how less, not less enough to not hurt someone. furthermore, we have tested many rounds in this fashion. I am not new to the firearms world, only new to AR's.. again, our testing has been real world much like you see on ammoquest etc... we just don't youtube it.

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Old 09-08-2017, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Hunter991 View Post
i think you are completely missing the point. I am saying that a .223 or 5.56 will penetrate drywall the same as most any round inside a house. Again, i could give a damn what the fbi says about it. I don't subscribe to that stuff. A simple .223 round we tested went thru 2 pieces of drywall a stud and into 2 water jugs. So if you think the Fbi saying that it penetrates less, good for them. It penetrates enough to someone on the other side of that wall. There is no round that isn't going to be dangerous to someone on the other side from any firearm except maybe some high end frangible bullet. But to say an AR is the best home defense isn't necessarily true or trying to defend that it is.. Its a false sense of security. Know what is on the other side because any round will most likely go thru. There isn't a way to say it will 100% penetrate less than a 9mm.. simple not fact. If it penetrates drywall, stud and water filled jugs, I think it would kill someone on the other side or severely injure them. So yah, i stand by my statement that an AR may NOT be the best indoor defense weapon. It may be right for some, but certainly not everyone. Its why i suggested checking out a 20 gauge with #4 shot as a better choice for some.

but to say its good or better cuz it penetrates less, well how less, not less enough to not hurt someone. furthermore, we have tested many rounds in this fashion. I am not new to the firearms world, only new to AR's.. again, our testing has been real world much like you see on ammoquest etc... we just don't youtube it.
Nobody said it will not penetrate a wall... But some rounds will loose energy faster.

Let me guess, your "testing" used XM193 and XM855... both full metal jacket rounds. Did you use any of the rounds that are polymer tipped and designed to fragment? Those rounds start to fragment, tumble, and lose energy when they hit a wall. It very well could be the difference between death or injury for a person on the other side of the wall.

You asked for a round, and I told you to try the Hornady 55 gr TAP Urban. Set up your test... test that round along side 9mm, and #4 buck... Let us know your findings.
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:07 PM
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Yes all testing done with m193. The stuff everyone buys for cheap. I should also say that apartment style life is another concern. Not just those who own a house. Huge liability. And our test with #4 shot was the best of the bunch. I agree with you that there are probably rounds like you mention that perform better. But your average joe probably won't be using them due to cost and availability. If you use an AR as your only or primary gun for SD, you have to understand. Being a handgunner mostly for my entire life I would not attempt to shot a fmj 9mm in my house for SD. But I see it a lot, someone gets their CCw and buy a box of Winchester white box. AR velocities are just to high not to expect some major penetration.
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:40 PM
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The ballistics he said, she said don't belong here. It has nothing to do with the OP's question and dilutes this discussion. You should take it to the Ammo Topic.
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Your hearing is definitely going to take a hit... but beats the potential alternative.
This is why I have a 300BLK SBR with suppressor in my bedroom, I'm still shooting supers so while it's still on the loud side of comfortable it's not going to cause permanent hearing damage to myself and my family members if they are in the room with me.

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Check your state laws. For self defense/CCW in my state it's like 20 feet. Anything beyond that and you have the opportunity to evade the situation (so they say). That kind of scenario has too many variables in a rule of law situation. Define the parameters of your question a little better and you may get more helpful answers.
In my state it's defined as an attacker having the "immediate" ability and intent to kill or seriously injure yourself or an innocent (that word is important) 3rd party. They go on to further define immediate as 2 seconds, so depending on what they are attacking you with the distance varies. You will be surprised how far a human with a knife can travel in 2 seconds at full pelt, and obviously with a firearm it's pretty much any distance with line of sight if they are shooting at you.

In a home defense situation I'd grab my family and hold up in the bedroom or bathroom, wait for them to come to me, so my max distance is never likely to be more than the width of a room.

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Old 09-08-2017, 06:49 PM
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Very difficult to defend any self-defense shooting beyond 25 yards.
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:49 PM
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Default The 21 foot rule ...

The accepted distance a knife wielding attacker can cover and deliver a killing blow before you can draw and fire a holstered gun. (note: YMMV)

That pretty much defines the distance that you can defend your use of deadly force after the event.

But to respond to the thread topic, I use an AR variant for home and property protection. With a couple of AR-16's To choose from, one with a laser and one with a bayonet (for up close and personal) I most usually chose my 300BLK Sig MCX with laser and light.

The sub-sonic rounds have good penetration, but in the back I have a shooting range and my nearest neighbor to the right is half a mile away. To the left is a concrete garage, a good back stop for any 30 caliber rounds going through the walls of my home.



It's folding stock makes it very short for discreet carry, and handy to put behind the seat in my pick-up truck. Still pretty loud to cap off indoors (or from the cab of my pick-up) so I'm planning to get a can for it, and maybe even a SBV (pistol?) to keep it handy with a suppressor attached.

Or on the tripod for sustained fife:



digiroc

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Old 09-08-2017, 08:30 PM
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Very nice rifle! Only thing about 300BLK subs....they're basically the same energy as a 45ACP. If I wanted to shoot 45ACP I'd use a pistol and not have to deal with the length of a rifle. Pistols aren't actually very good at stopping people quickly, so I chose a rifle to get rifle stopping power, so I use 300BLK supersonics for that reason. Especially if you don't have a can the subs aren't even much quieter. Check out the Barnes 120gr VOR-TX full copper bullet and the gel tests on YouTube, they're what I've got in my 300BLK that I have stashed for home defense should I ever need it.

Barnes VOR-TX Ammo 300 AAC Blackout 120 Grain TAC-TX - MPN: 30827
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter991 View Post
Yes all testing done with m193. The stuff everyone buys for cheap. I should also say that apartment style life is another concern. Not just those who own a house. Huge liability. And our test with #4 shot was the best of the bunch. I agree with you that there are probably rounds like you mention that perform better. But your average joe probably won't be using them due to cost and availability. If you use an AR as your only or primary gun for SD, you have to understand. Being a handgunner mostly for my entire life I would not attempt to shot a fmj 9mm in my house for SD. But I see it a lot, someone gets their CCw and buy a box of Winchester white box. AR velocities are just to high not to expect some major penetration.
You are making your argument on the cheapest rifle ammunition available and claiming the rifle shooters won't use anything else due to cost and availability. Yet you claim you wouldn't use FMJ 9mm in a house while assuming a rifle shooter wouldn't use anything else. Many of the posters on this forum use boutique 9mm ammunition that cost $2/ea and is not readily available at mom and pop stores. Why would rifle shooters be any different? People buy a tremendous amount of ammunition on the Internet from thousands of dealers around the country.

It is the high velocities of AR ammunition that limit penetration because the bullets come apart and fragment.
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:09 AM
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Within shotgun range.
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Old 09-09-2017, 07:36 AM
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A fixed range? Absurd. Ludicrous. Laughable. Dangerous.

Distance as a legal requirement has nothing to do with it. What matters is that you're in immediate jeopardy, and really, that you have no alternatives to lethal force--in other words, that you can't safely escape or avoid the danger.

Note the "safely" part. If a guy is threatening you with a knife, and you reasonably believe that he really means it, I don't see the wisdom in turning around and running if he's 50 feet away. By all means, back away, but don't put yourself in further risk trying to avoid him. The folks that write "duty to retreat" laws seem to have a hard time understanding this. It's almost a contradiction--if lethal force is justified, then retreat is either not possible or unsafe. The fight has started.

Anyways, semiautomatic rifles have a wide array of advantages. They've got lower recoil and better capacity than a shotgun, and are generally easier to be accurate with than a handgun. But really, the shotgun or AR you take out twice a year doesn't hold a candle to the pistol you shoot everyday.

The fact that 5.56mm is considered effective out to 600 meters is incidental.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
If I am in a situation where I can dodge/duck behind cover/run and get away safe, I won't shoot. If I am flat-footed and in the open, I'll return fire until I can beat feat. My aim in being armed is to survive, not take an objective or kill a bad guy.
You sir are a man after my own heart.

As for an AR for home defense. I keep one loaded, along with several spare magazines, up-stairs. It is to be used to keep the great unwashed out of the lawn and out of the flower beds, say 50 - 100 feet. For anything else I'm going to start with one of my .357 Magnum's.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:44 AM
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So much of this is individual and situation specific.

At 50 feet against a potential assailant armed with a contact weapon, simply getting the heck out of dodge would probably be the smartest, safest and most effective response for a good many people. I know it would be for me.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Distance as a legal requirement has nothing to do with it. What matters is that you're in immediate jeopardy, and really, that you have no alternatives to lethal force--in other words, that you can't safely escape or avoid the danger.
And that's why I say that a legal defense of a self-defense shooting beyond 25 yards is very difficult to maintain.

Obviously no one is going to measure the distance prior to defending themselves, but distance is a factor. If the bad guy is further than 25 yards or so, it's very difficult to say that you had no opportunity to escape. I'm not saying it can't happen. Just that it's difficult to defend.

This can't be said enough:
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Originally Posted by Pisgah
If I am in a situation where I can dodge/duck behind cover/run and get away safe, I won't shoot. If I am flat-footed and in the open, I'll return fire until I can beat feat. My aim in being armed is to survive, not take an objective or kill a bad guy.
In my opinion, there are far too many people who just want to shoot someone.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by arnoob View Post
Very nice rifle! Only thing about 300BLK subs....they're basically the same energy as a 45ACP. If I wanted to shoot 45ACP I'd use a pistol and not have to deal with the length of a rifle. Pistols aren't actually very good at stopping people quickly, so I chose a rifle to get rifle stopping power, so I use 300BLK supersonics for that reason. Especially if you don't have a can the subs aren't even much quieter...
I have several .45's to use if a handgun is warranted, the MCX offers no more power, but also no more penetration with sub-sonics. Just capacity, laser, light, and more accurate platform.

Thanks for the tip on solid copper 300BLK, don't want to give anybody lead poisoning.

digiroc
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:53 AM
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And that's why I say that a legal defense of a self-defense shooting beyond 25 yards is very difficult to maintain.

Obviously no one is going to measure the distance prior to defending themselves, but distance is a factor. If the bad guy is further than 25 yards or so, it's very difficult to say that you had no opportunity to escape. I'm not saying it can't happen. Just that it's difficult to defend.

This can't be said enough:

In my opinion, there are far too many people who just want to shoot someone.
Tend to agree..... but as stated in my original lighthearted post...... some one with a long gun and large magazine putting rounds (aimed or just spraying & hoping) in your direction could extend the range.... the bigger question is at longer range can you effectively counter/neutralize the threat of death or serious bodily injury.

For most the run ..... hide(cover/concealment) ...... fight options should be exercised in that order..... for a lot of reasons!!!!!!
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by digiroc View Post
I have several .45's to use if a handgun is warranted, the MCX offers no more power, but also no more penetration with sub-sonics. Just capacity, laser, light, and more accurate platform.

Thanks for the tip on solid copper 300BLK, don't want to give anybody lead poisoning.

digiroc
The problem is 45ACP bullets are designed for 45ACP velocities. 220gr 300BLK are rifle bullets and at 45ACP velocities / energy they don't expand, they go right through. So you end up with the combination of a poor wound channel / stopping power and over penetration.

300 BLK 220gr Subsonic Gel Test! Remington's Factory Loaded Subsonic for the 300 AAC BLACKOUT - YouTube

Barnes TAC-TX bullets are specifically designed for the 300BLK and fully expand at the velocity the rifle produces, in gel tests they are both more effective at producing a desirable wound channel and less prone to over penetration.

Anyway, your rifle, so you shoot what you feel most comfortable with, just sharing the info I have found.

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Old 09-09-2017, 01:21 PM
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Please stop shooting at me... I need to take a measurement.

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Old 09-09-2017, 02:17 PM
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Tend to agree..... but as stated in my original lighthearted post...... some one with a long gun and large magazine putting rounds (aimed or just spraying & hoping) in your direction could extend the range.... the bigger question is at longer range can you effectively counter/neutralize the threat of death or serious bodily injury.

For most the run ..... hide(cover/concealment) ...... fight options should be exercised in that order..... for a lot of reasons!!!!!!
I completely agree with this. Yes, the bad guy could have a rifle and could be shooting a long range. However, my first thought is to find cover. If he's 25, 50 yards or more, I've either already been shot or I've got a second to find cover. Also, at those distances, I'd have to stand still to return fire and be any kind of accurate. Not a good idea.
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:47 PM
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So many unanswered questions. Are you defending your 23 year old athletic self, or a 83 year old arthritic self, your 8 month old infant asleep in bed, six children aged 3 to 13 playing in the backyard, your invalid mother in a hospital type bed in the living room.

Do you live in a 350 square foot apartment off Michigan Ave near the Water Tower, a 640 acre farm outside Ottumwa Iowa, or a $3.5 million yaucht in Tampa Bay. Your car in the local mall parking lot at noon, your car at the end of a dead end gravel road miles from civilization at half past midnite. Blue state or red. Castle doctrine, anyone? A few respondants envisioned carring a MSR for CCW (might print just a bit).

What is reasonable, responsible. SunTsu says we win every fight we decline to enter. But sometimes that isn't possible. A .380 with glaser safety slugs is easier to justify in a 23d floor apartment. But in the country where you wait 20 minutes after calling 911 firing off 100 rounds of 193 at targets 50 to 200 yards distant may be completely reasonable. What ever you have (M72A2s) may be alright fighting off a cigarette boat of drug runners who want your yaucht. In Kalifornia or Illinoing using an unregistered pointed stick against Charles Manson who just broke out of prison will get you jail time.
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Old 09-09-2017, 03:50 PM
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So much of this is individual and situation specific....
Agree. If all you have is an AR and a box of M193s, that's what you use.

If you have the resources and prefer a long gun, other options are available and probably much more appropriate in most SD / HD situations. I personally would favor an M1 Carbine loaded with the right ammunition over an AR. Or one of the Marlin Camp Carbines in a pistol caliber. Or a shotgun.
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Old 09-09-2017, 03:59 PM
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And that's why I say that a legal defense of a self-defense shooting beyond 25 yards is very difficult to maintain.

Obviously no one is going to measure the distance prior to defending themselves, but distance is a factor. If the bad guy is further than 25 yards or so, it's very difficult to say that you had no opportunity to escape. I'm not saying it can't happen. Just that it's difficult to defend.

.
Tennessee does not place the burden on the victim to prove they couldn't flee. Law abiding citizens (provided they have a legal right to be where they are) can use deadly force anywhere, at home or away, as long as there's "a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury." It's generally referred to as stand your ground. Not all states are like this. Some states place the burden on the victim to otherwise prove it wasn't reasonable to flee.
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