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  #51  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:26 AM
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Here is how cloudy something simple can be in the criminal law.

2 people end up doing almost exactly the same thing in the same state.

Variables that have nothing to do with the actual act or legal wording of the law.

Prosecutor. Mind set of the local head prosecutor. How does he interpret the wording. Pro or anti gun. Yes, personal beliefs enter into this. Plus, his mind set may well have been a factor in his election by the local populous. Just in pro gun, stand your ground, castle doctrine Montana you has Missoula county (the Berkley of Montana) with the University and law school and then less than 100 miles away Lincoln where it is still a bit of the wild west or farther east in some of thee small population counties where it is still the wild west. Huge differences in what would shake out. New York state is the same way to a degree. New York city vs some of the rural areas.

That districts judge. What some judges will "buy" as an argument is different than others and the prosecutor has a pretty good idea how the decisions will be made. So, does any good defense attorney.

Then there is recent history. Feelings of populous and prosecutor can be swayed by recent events. If the citizens are up in arms over similar events this can very well effect the decision to prosecute. Been a bunch of home invasions and people are upset because of it,, and event occurred during such an act, he may well drop it. If on the other hand there have been some defense shootings and people felt the shooter got away with something he may well be more apt to file charges.

Then of course there is the people involved. Both the shooter and the person shot and their record and standing in the community.
Same actions butt, shooter is a local businessman and decon in the church, person he shot has been a pain in societies side for years. OR. The owner of the strip club shoots little Johnny who was a choirboy in the church. A woman shooting a man may well have different results than a man shooting a woman. A 250# man vs a 135# man differs if the big guy was shooter or the little guy was. Even the time of day could be a factor.

Witnesses and victims statements. Plus, what they "think" they saw.

Whole lot more than just the say 5 minutes during which the "attack" and the "defensive shooting" occurred.

and now days who has postdated what on face book of forums.

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  #52  
Old 09-15-2017, 02:30 PM
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Yup, and you have to pay a lawyer to get it
The way our society works. The best mechanic in town charges the most and has a six day backlog. Your neighbors fourteen year old son will work on your truck for free.
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Old 09-15-2017, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
I keep coming back to the M. Brown case in these type discussions. Most gunshots in shootouts are woefully inaccurate. DW shot 11 times, only 6 hit, only two stopped the threat. Those two shots were fatal.

Lung shots, not likely to stop, or be fatal. Sometimes gut shots are fatal if the infection cannot be stopped. Shots to a major artery, or the heart is destroyed is likely to be fatal, as well as cranial shots. A shot to the brain stem will most likely put the lights out. We call it pithing when putting down an animal, though usually done with a knife.

Many wounds can be fatal, even a blown off pinkie, even pepper spray can be fatal. An attacker can still kill, and be dead(no beating heart). The attacker has several seconds before incapacitated, and that is a longggggg time.

As stated, the best self defense is situational awareness, and common sense. Every gunfight that never happens is a success story.
My understanding of the case as a retired cop reading the news...
Brown commited a strong arm robbery. He had not been identified as the perpetrator of that robbery, but he did not know that.

Officer Wilson worked for a department that wrote ticky-tacky tickets as a source of income. Wilson stopped Brown for jaywalking (ticky-tacky), but Brown didn't know why he was being stopped, he had just committed a felony robbery and assault. Brown tried to get Wilson's sidearm. Brown punched Wilson. Wilson secured his sidearm, firing one round inside of the squadcar in the process. Brown ran, Wilson fired at him, mostly missing (10/17) but striking him 5 times in the left arm/shoulder. Wilson was dazed, having been punched multiple times by someone he planed on writing a $35.00 municipal summons to. Wilson pursued Brown (were I an official and Wilson said he was pursuing a dangerous suspect who had just inexplicably assaulted a police officer, I would have agreed with his actions, but instead he said he was scared, thought Brown had superhuman strength and was going to kill him, thats ok for a civvie BUT IMHO DARREN WILSON SHOULD NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCMSTANCES WORK AS A POLICE OFFICER).

Completly consistant with my earlier statement the two rounds that stopped Brown were mortal. Two head shots, the fact that they were shots #16 and #17 are both typical, and problematic.

Grumpy old man opinion.... Standards have taken a trip to Hades since the adoption of the 9/40. When I was turned out to walk Flatbush Avenue I had 23 rounds and qualified at 25 yards. Not to rag on Officer Wilson (he was whatever else you think, the victim of a felony assault) but what he did mostly was miss his target and put rounds out there that could have hit innocents.

Some here say, most people are lousy shots, ok, I will accept that at face value. (The guys I came up with were NOT, not one individual who sought to escape lawful arrest by firing on me survived that really poor choice.)

But what I said was a shot, aimed at a part of the anatomy that is capable of making the perpetrator of a criminal act INVOLUNTARILY stop, is likely to be fatal. If the situation you are in has deteriorated to the point that you are firing, you should have that front sight over some part of the perpetrator he cannot live without. And if your aim is true your bullet will terminate his life.

We shoot to stop the threat, true. But if we hit our targets the target dies, to say we don't shoot to kill is to engage in self-deception

The act of killing a human being, even one who has committed the most heinois fellonies is not a thing you ever forget.
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Old 09-15-2017, 03:16 PM
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Sure hope I am entirely wrong, but the OP's verbiage suggests a questionable mindset given he asks when it's legally permissible 'to kill another human being.'

I daresay those words could come back to haunt him if he does indeed find himself in a 'shoot' situation. Note I did not say 'kill' situation.

Be safe.

PS: Kiwi cop and cgt4570 are spot on in their comments.
The Big D:

In hindsight, perhaps poorly chosen words, yet they still convey the underlying truth about the likely end result when one discharges a firearm in a self defense encounter. While I can see your reaction to my verbage, it is direct and to the point.
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Old 09-15-2017, 03:37 PM
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The Big D:

In hindsight, perhaps poorly chosen words, yet they still convey the underlying truth about the likely end result when one discharges a firearm in a self defense encounter. While I can see your reaction to my verbage, it is direct and to the point.
But still; as you stated,...... "poorly chosen".

You will always carry an internet ghost....... that you ask when it is "OK to KILL "..... if you ever are forced as a last resort to use deadly force..... the question will be asked ......."he sought out and memorized an excuse....... to live out his fantasy"

As my wife tells our boys as they head out the door......"Make good choices!"

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Old 09-15-2017, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
Here is how cloudy something simple can be in the criminal law.

2 people end up doing almost exactly the same thing in the same state.

Variables that have nothing to do with the actual act or legal wording of the law.

Prosecutor. Mind set of the local head prosecutor. How does he interpret the wording. Pro or anti gun. Yes, personal beliefs enter into this. Plus, his mind set may well have been a factor in his election by the local populous. Just in pro gun, stand your ground, castle doctrine Montana you has Missoula county (the Berkley of Montana) with the University and law school and then less than 100 miles away Lincoln where it is still a bit of the wild west or farther east in some of thee small population counties where it is still the wild west. Huge differences in what would shake out. New York state is the same way to a degree. New York city vs some of the rural areas.

That districts judge. What some judges will "buy" as an argument is different than others and the prosecutor has a pretty good idea how the decisions will be made. So, does any good defense attorney.

Then there is recent history. Feelings of populous and prosecutor can be swayed by recent events. If the citizens are up in arms over similar events this can very well effect the decision to prosecute. Been a bunch of home invasions and people are upset because of it,, and event occurred during such an act, he may well drop it. If on the other hand there have been some defense shootings and people felt the shooter got away with something he may well be more apt to file charges.

Then of course there is the people involved. Both the shooter and the person shot and their record and standing in the community.
Same actions butt, shooter is a local businessman and decon in the church, person he shot has been a pain in societies side for years. OR. The owner of the strip club shoots little Johnny who was a choirboy in the church. A woman shooting a man may well have different results than a man shooting a woman. A 250# man vs a 135# man differs if the big guy was shooter or the little guy was. Even the time of day could be a factor.

Witnesses and victims statements. Plus, what they "think" they saw.

Whole lot more than just the say 5 minutes during which the "attack" and the "defensive shooting" occurred.

and now days who has postdated what on face book of forums.
Petrofsky isn't Detroit. Cairo isn't Chicago. Stevens Point isn't Milwaukee. Saint Cloud isn't Saint Paul.
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:16 PM
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BUT IMHO DARREN WILSON SHOULD NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCMSTANCES WORK AS A POLICE OFFICER).
Ohh I agree, he could have got himself killed, and responding officers. One only has to look at his grand jury testimony to see how incompetent he was.

Let me do a short synopsis of it. He sees two subjects walking in the streets. He tells them to get out of the street, and they become verbally abusive using profanity. One of the two was very, very, very large. At about the same time a radio report of a armed robbery with a subject matching the large persons description. This is not the stupid part, just lead up.

So this officer decides instead of waiting a minute, or two for backup to drive his vehicle next to the large one, and roll down his window. There must have been a neon sign above DW's head saying hit me, I am stupid.

It is lucky that MB did not get DW's gun, then DW would have been probably dead, and the responding officers would have been involved in a gunfight.

I would imagine this factored in to the city asking him to resign.
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:17 PM
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But still; as you stated,...... "poorly chosen".

You will always carry an internet ghost....... that you ask when it is "OK to KILL "..... if you ever are forced as a last resort to use deadly force..... the question will be asked ......."he sought out and memorized an excuse....... to live out his fantasy"

As my wife tells our boys as they head out the door......"Make good choices!"
Depends, if Dahir Adan is lying dead at your feet and the paramedics are tending to his victims, just guessing nobody is going to go looking through your browser's history, but I could be wrong.

And of course its always wise to "Make good choices"
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:24 PM
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Ohh I agree, he could have got himself killed, and responding officers. One only has to look at his grand jury testimony to see how incompetent he was.

Let me do a short synopsis of it. He sees two subjects walking in the streets. He tells them to get out of the street, and they become verbally abusive using profanity. One of the two was very, very, very large. At about the same time a radio report of a armed robbery with a subject matching the large persons description. This is not the stupid part, just lead up.

So this officer decides instead of waiting a minute, or two for backup to drive his vehicle next to the large one, and roll down his window. There must have been a neon sign above DW's head saying hit me, I am stupid.

It is lucky that MB did not get DW's gun, then DW would have been probably dead, and the responding officers would have been involved in a gunfight.

I would imagine this factored in to the city asking him to resign.
Yes, as a fellow human being I am glad DW is alive. I see easily how that day might have been a tragedy for his family. I wish him well in a different endeavor. But as a guy who spent 23 years on the job. Maybe its just me, but I think he needs a different profession. We need people on the job who make good decisions in truly life threatening situations.
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Old 09-15-2017, 05:24 PM
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Nonsense. Quality 'advice' on this issue exists.
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Yup, and you have to pay a lawyer to get it
I understand that you may have to pay a lawyer to get his advice, but what makes you think that the advice is of any useful quality?

Lawyers have many different areas of experience, and even those who specialize in the area of your interest differ in their competence.

Whose ***is is on the chopping block?
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:04 PM
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That study is also somewhat flawed. It doesn't take into consideration the type of ammo, and I realize it's not something easily done. It doesn't mention if fatal means dead on the spot or dead in the hospital. Thats a big difference. Dead in the hospital may mean you're laying next to him! You could use the one shot stop data but that doesn't say if the guy got hit in the elbow and said ok thats enough for me, or he died right there. Although in this case it probably wouldn't matter since you're shooting to stop a threat. Number of rounds fired until incapacitation also doesn't mean it took the person X amount of hits to get to stop. It could mean that the shooter just kept firing. If the shooter went BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG in a second that could mean 5 shots or 1 shot that actually stopped. Some people will empty their magazine in a second.

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Like Studies it is flawed, but it is what we have to consider. As for the type of ammo used I think we a canmake reasonable assumptions. The thinking over the time that suvey covered was when SD calibers starting with a 4 or a magnum were generally HP. For 380 and lower it was generally FMJ.

As for when death occured it is almost irrelevant. The more important statistic how many shots to reach incapacitation. incapacitation.

I guarantee you from personal experience, it is more important to incapacitate your opponent than to kill him. My objective in posting the study was to answer the claim that most incapacitation are lethal. The study shows that to not be the case.

I carry a 380 pistol loaded with Tuger ARX rounds that solves the problem of non expansion from a short barrel 380. I have absolute confidence that at up to 30 feet I can incapacitate a a bad guy wit two shots from my Remington 380. Beyond 30 feet I do not worry because unless the perp is really skilled regardless of caliber he is unlikely to hit me, especially when he gets sprayed with numerous cover fire.

Gunfighting is a science and an art.
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:38 PM
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I carry a 380 pistol loaded with Tuger ARX rounds that solves the problem of non expansion from a short barrel 380. I have absolute confidence that at up to 30 feet I can incapacitate a a bad guy wit two shots from my Remington 380
Interesting..... Im reading about that ammo now.. here's a youtube review:

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Old 09-15-2017, 07:30 PM
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You will always carry an internet ghost....... that you ask when it is "OK to KILL "..... if you ever are forced as a last resort to use deadly force..... the question will be asked ......."he sought out and memorized an excuse....... to live out his fantasy"
This right here. I know I'm not the only one around here that remembers just such a situation that unfolded right here on this board a while back.

Without quoting, or naming names, there was a now inactive member who posted a hypothetical scenario about killing his wife. Lo and behold, some months later he's arrested for her murder.

I know that the detective who worked that case was aware of that post, and others in different forums he made. When it became important, they dug way into the guy's online footprint.

Ultimately, that inactive member pled out to the murder charge and will be off the board for the next 20-40 years.

Not saying that is what is going on here at all, but illustrating that Bam is right. Things written on the net have a life of their own and it's a long one. Something bad happens, the questions will be asked.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:41 PM
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Old 09-15-2017, 08:35 PM
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I understand that you may have to pay a lawyer to get his advice, but what makes you think that the advice is of any useful quality?

Lawyers have many different areas of experience, and even those who specialize in the area of your interest differ in their competence.

Whose ***is is on the chopping block?
See post 26
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:14 PM
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Like Studies it is flawed, but it is what we have to consider. As for the type of ammo used I think we a canmake reasonable assumptions. The thinking over the time that suvey covered was when SD calibers starting with a 4 or a magnum were generally HP. For 380 and lower it was generally FMJ.

As for when death occured it is almost irrelevant. The more important statistic how many shots to reach incapacitation. incapacitation.

I guarantee you from personal experience, it is more important to incapacitate your opponent than to kill him. My objective in posting the study was to answer the claim that most incapacitation are lethal. The study shows that to not be the case.

I carry a 380 pistol loaded with Tuger ARX rounds that solves the problem of non expansion from a short barrel 380. I have absolute confidence that at up to 30 feet I can incapacitate a a bad guy wit two shots from my Remington 380. Beyond 30 feet I do not worry because unless the perp is really skilled regardless of caliber he is unlikely to hit me, especially when he gets sprayed with numerous cover fire.

Gunfighting is a science and an art.
Thank you for the link. It was interesting.

I agree that the goal on the street (not talking Wall or Nassau) is to survive. And that surviving means making the other guy stop shooting at you (bludgeoning you, garroting you, stabbing you etc). But we make the other guy stop shooting at us by aiming our weapons at a part of his anatomy, that if we hit it, will likely cause him to die. We aim at heads and hearts. Aiming at hands will get US killed, but if we really truly did not want to kill anyone we would accept much lower chances for our own survival and try knee shots, elbow shots etc. Bad news for bystanders, (as BAD as most people are hitting center-mass think of the results).

I have no quibbles with the report but don't think it refutes my PERCEPTION that INVOLUNTARY stops are likely mortal hits. (The author noted many stops were likely the result of peoples dissatisfaction with the act of being shot, he called them PSYCHOLOGICAL stops.

It showed what 9 can do, 38 does better with fewer rounds. Three fifty seven is king. IMHO it shows that people who carry .32s recognise the limitations of thier gun and make more head shots.

But the limitation is the group, the people taking those shots, I am guessing that everyone who missed or made a pheriphreal hit wasn't aiming for an elbow. They aimed for head or heart and got a femur.

I hope nobody who reads this ever faces a situation where they are forced to draw. If forced to draw I hope the threat beats feet screaming "Nooooooo", and consequently no shots are fired. If shots are fired I hope the "good guy's" aim is true and the criminal goes down without harming anyone. I hope nobody else is hit.

But I recognise that if the good guy's aim is true Mr. Criminal now has a sizable hole in his head or his heart (.311 is sizable (your .355 even bigger) in a frontal cortex). I have seen many formerly living people with holes in thier heads or thier hearts. (Target wadcutters many times.) I have never seen anyone shot in the head or the heart get up again, and very few hit near the heart get up.

Shooting at a human being is quite likely to result in death. And that is a big moral or ethical consideration in CCW.
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Old 09-17-2017, 12:56 AM
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Good Idea, since California is biggest, the other 49 PR and DC should just adopt their statutes .
I guess that was an attempt at sarcasm?

There may be night classes to give you a hand with that.
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Old 09-17-2017, 02:49 AM
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I do not mean to be a spoiler but there is no meaningful evidence that a hit that leads to incpacition or another type of stop is likely to be lethal. The lethal stops are mostly going to be those that cause a person to bleed out quickly before aid can be applied or a devestating central neevous system hit like the brain or the brain stem.

If you were correct the number of KIAs in war would exceed the number of WIAs. But the fact is that WIAs are usually five times the number of KIAs.

A hit that incpacitates is one that stops the aggressor from continuing the fight. During my four tours in Nam I was shot twice. The first time my skull was grazed. It knocked me out but 15 minutes later I was back in the fight. The second time my left lung was deflated and I was out of action for a year. Both hits stopped me. Obviously, neither killed me. Keep that KIA to WIA percantage in mind and you will recognize that most stops are not lethal.
It s perhaps pertinent to recognise that, paradoxically, in a declared war zone the intent is not to kill the opposition but to wound. A killed opponent means one less opponent on the field. A wounded opponent requires up to 5 others to support and treat medically, that removes 6 opponents.

But I agree, a centre mass hit is not necessarily a fatal wound. Medical professionals are getting better at treatment of injuries that even 20 years ago would probably have been leather. And let's not forget Stacey Lim, an LAPD officer shot in the heart with a full power .357 Magnum round who survived. (She was so seriously wounded that surgeons could not administer anaesthetic, cutting her chest open and operating with no pain relief).
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Old 09-17-2017, 10:34 AM
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I guess that was an attempt at sarcasm?

There may be night classes to give you a hand with that.
Actually, I teach a section at the local CC (ENG 313 Sarcasm and Scathing Commentary Dangerfield 210 R 7.10-9.20 3.0). Come check it out, just a brisk (70 mile) swim to the east.

PS good luck on 11/18
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Old 09-17-2017, 10:47 AM
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I've said this often.....

The spoken word is as free as air...The written word is forever there.


.
But, free advice comes with a money-back guarantee.

Re: Von Clauswitz and the economic cost of injured combattants: there is a trove of literature on the State of Mississippi, and what it spent following the Civil War on artificial limbs, not the cost of providing medical services, but JUST PROTHETICS, depending on the year, from say 1866 to 1880, it accounted for 20 to 50 percent of the entire state budget.
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Old 09-17-2017, 01:15 PM
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It s perhaps pertinent to recognise that, paradoxically, in a declared war zone the intent is not to kill the opposition but to wound. A killed opponent means one less opponent on the field. A wounded opponent requires up to 5 others to support and treat medically, that removes 6 opponents.

But I agree, a centre mass hit is not necessarily a fatal wound. Medical professionals are getting better at treatment of injuries that even 20 years ago would probably have been leather. And let's not forget Stacey Lim, an LAPD officer shot in the heart with a full power .357 Magnum round who survived. (She was so seriously wounded that surgeons could not administer anaesthetic, cutting her chest open and operating with no pain relief).
Her heart was damaged, but not to the point of no return. The bullet nicked the heart diaphragm. Apparently it did not stop the heart from still working. Even if it had she could still continue to fight for several seconds, she did continue to fight.

Had her heart been destroyed they would have needed a transplant to save her. A heart that is completely destroyed cannot function to supply oxygen to the brain, even with CPR. They would almost need to do Intra-aortic Balloon Pump on scene.
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Old 09-17-2017, 03:12 PM
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I live 200 or so miles from a level 3 trauma center. People have almost no need for one in these parts. I imagine this is pretty common across the US. But in the unlikley event you get hit in the nine or ten ring here, you are going to die.
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Old 09-17-2017, 08:27 PM
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This turned out to be an interesting thread... for me. As a former LTC instructor, seems like a long time ago, stopping the threat was what I preached... after front sight, center mass. When it comes down to it, I for one, believe you will know. If in doubt, do not pull it out. If you pull it... you need to be willing to use it. If you use it...call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance stating name, location and there has been a shooting. Reload, make certain no other threats are in evidence.. holster the weapon when police arrive. Do not volunteer any info... tell the officer what happened in as short an explanation as you can... then inform him you really are shook up and want to speak to your attorney.
The law and how it is interpreted is secondary to self preservation and the protection of your loved ones. Survive.
As one of our members, Keith44SPL, has put out there... bring enough gun....survive.
There is an old but relevant axiom out there, " I would rather be tried by 12 than convicted by 1".
The cops and DA will smell subterfuge.... tell the truth... you never have to remember the truth.
And one more thing... if a perp threatens me or mine, he and he alone, is responsible for the out come.
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Old 09-17-2017, 10:58 PM
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Actually, I teach a section at the local CC (ENG 313 Sarcasm and Scathing Commentary Dangerfield 210 R 7.10-9.20 3.0). Come check it out, just a brisk (70 mile) swim to the east.

PS good luck on 11/18
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

I've had my Masters in the art for a very long time, brother, and don't need any refresher courses. Observing and commenting on life around me, especially politics, keeps me in top shape.

Besides, I can't swim in fresh water worth a darn. I did get part way to Mexico once, fueled by Bali Hai, when I was stationed in Pensacola way back in the Stone Age. Could hardly sink a rock in that salty Gulf.
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:02 PM
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This turned out to be an interesting thread... for me. As a former LTC instructor, seems like a long time ago, stopping the threat was what I preached... after front sight, center mass. When it comes down to it, I for one, believe you will know. If in doubt, do not pull it out. If you pull it... you need to be willing to use it. If you use it...call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance stating name, location and there has been a shooting. Reload, make certain no other threats are in evidence.. holster the weapon when police arrive. Do not volunteer any info... tell the officer what happened in as short an explanation as you can... then inform him you really are shook up and want to speak to your attorney.
The law and how it is interpreted is secondary to self preservation and the protection of your loved ones. Survive.
As one of our members, Keith44SPL, has put out there... bring enough gun....survive.
There is an old but relevant axiom out there, " I would rather be tried by 12 than convicted by 1".
The cops and DA will smell subterfuge.... tell the truth... you never have to remember the truth.
And one more thing... if a perp threatens me or mine, he and he alone, is responsible for the out come.
Bullseye!!!
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Old 09-18-2017, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DevilDog72 View Post
This turned out to be an interesting thread... for me. As a former LTC instructor, seems like a long time ago, stopping the threat was what I preached... after front sight, center mass. When it comes down to it, I for one, believe you will know. If in doubt, do not pull it out. If you pull it... you need to be willing to use it. If you use it...call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance stating name, location and there has been a shooting. Reload, make certain no other threats are in evidence.. holster the weapon when police arrive. Do not volunteer any info... tell the officer what happened in as short an explanation as you can... then inform him you really are shook up and want to speak to your attorney.
The law and how it is interpreted is secondary to self preservation and the protection of your loved ones. Survive.
As one of our members, Keith44SPL, has put out there... bring enough gun....survive.
There is an old but relevant axiom out there, " I would rather be tried by 12 than convicted by 1".
The cops and DA will smell subterfuge.... tell the truth... you never have to remember the truth.
And one more thing... if a perp threatens me or mine, he and he alone, is responsible for the out come.
Great advice, I would just add a couple things...

Its really good to have an idea how many threats you are facing, criminal perpetrators don't always act alone, look for accomplices as part of assessing the threat (before acting if possible.)

Moving away from a known second or third threat if possible and reloading, are more important than calling for backup or a bus, and IMHO should be done first. If anyone says that the perp is lying there bleeding and the extra minute it takes you to reload shows indifference, I point out that he is more likely to survive if you are not shot while making that 911 call.

And reholstering, recovering if CCW, is really really smart. You would not believe how many times officers arrive on a scene and the good guy is standing there holding a gun. Don't take a chance the responding officer is a rook who misreads the situation.
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Old 09-18-2017, 01:04 AM
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"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
Those who can't even teach: lead

A neighbor's son tried swimming to Milwaukee once, got just past halfway, got tired and turned around and swam back. Graduated with honors from State the next year
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Old 09-18-2017, 10:15 AM
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If anyone says that the perp is lying there bleeding and the extra minute it takes you to reload shows indifference, I point out that he is more likely to survive if you are not shot while making that 911 call.
Another thing to consider...if someone is shot and collapses due to lack of oxygenated blood to the brain, while lying down the heart doesn't have to fight gravity, making it easier to get blood to the brain; the attacker can potentially revive and re-engage. This has happened before and has been documented on video.
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:45 PM
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Another thing to consider...if someone is shot and collapses due to lack of oxygenated blood to the brain, while lying down the heart doesn't have to fight gravity, making it easier to get blood to the brain; the attacker can potentially revive and re-engage. This has happened before and has been documented on video.
So true, we were taught that if we were the first (or only), to keep our weapon trained on a downed perp, and be ready to reengage, while calling for backup and a bus (911 call).
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DevilDog72 View Post
This turned out to be an interesting thread... for me. As a former LTC instructor, seems like a long time ago, stopping the threat was what I preached... after front sight, center mass. When it comes down to it, I for one, believe you will know. If in doubt, do not pull it out. If you pull it... you need to be willing to use it. If you use it...call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance stating name, location and there has been a shooting. Reload, make certain no other threats are in evidence.. holster the weapon when police arrive. Do not volunteer any info... tell the officer what happened in as short an explanation as you can... then inform him you really are shook up and want to speak to your attorney.
The law and how it is interpreted is secondary to self preservation and the protection of your loved ones. Survive.
As one of our members, Keith44SPL, has put out there... bring enough gun....survive.
There is an old but relevant axiom out there, " I would rather be tried by 12 than convicted by 1".
The cops and DA will smell subterfuge.... tell the truth... you never have to remember the truth.
And one more thing... if a perp threatens me or mine, he and he alone, is responsible for the out come.
Well said Sir !! ..................To the point, short and sweet.
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:31 PM
Dvan34 Dvan34 is offline
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[QUOTE=johnny_yuma;139744894]This thread is for Law Enforcement and persons with expert knowledge to demonstrate model examples where a Concealed Carry Citizen is justified in using their weapon to kill another human being.

Johnny- the wording to "kill another human being". Better wording is to stop the aggressive attack of another person. If that results in his death that will be decided by prosecutors and maybe a jury.

The intent must 'always' be to preserve your own life and/or the life of an innocent party.You may have to fire several times to 'stop' the attacker. You may have to fire at the Central Nervous System, head, neck area, or area as close or including the heart resulting in the death of the attacker. But your stated objective must always be to 'stop' the attacker not to kill him. Shooting to wound or disable? Under the stress of the situation that would not be recommended.
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Old 09-23-2017, 12:17 AM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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Thank you. I completely understand that. The assumption of this post was education on what to look for in example situations where it is beyond reasonable doubt, necessary -with all considerations for saving human life- for a legal concealed carry permit holder to employ their firearm in self defense. My words were not intended to come across reckless, in fact it should be considered a basic *assumption* that discharging of a firearm in any event, very likely will end the life of another human being. Therefore the language "to kill" another human being assumes potentially lethal force.. My post was because I take the matter very seriously... and I think we have had numerous post here to shed knowledge on the mindset required for CCW, and the reality of the gravity of a self defense encounter. Thanks to the numerous enlightening posts. It has been a very educational experience. I hope to God that I am never, ever in a situation that requires use of a firearm. Thanks all.

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Old 10-05-2017, 07:46 AM
GenetheMarine GenetheMarine is offline
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Does anyone know where I can get a fair and balanced review of my S&W Model 66. It's brush nickel still in the original box. I purchased it from the original owner who bought it approx 30 years ago. Just re-qualified here under the Federal Law/State run IROCC program. What is it worth ?

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Brush Nickle
Original grips
In the wooden box

Serial Number: 7K86208
Mod 66
12886
SC8

Thanks.
Gene
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:16 PM
otasan56 otasan56 is offline
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I'm more likely to be in an auto accident than a SD shooting.
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Old 10-14-2017, 05:25 AM
RSanch111 RSanch111 is offline
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It's all about YOU. What YOU can explain as reasonable based on what you perceived and thought at the time. Pretty simple. If you feel like your life is in danger, shoot. If not, don't. Even if someone else under the same circumstances did.
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Old 10-14-2017, 05:33 AM
RSanch111 RSanch111 is offline
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Originally Posted by GenetheMarine View Post
Does anyone know where I can get a fair and balanced review of my S&W Model 66. It's brush nickel still in the original box. I purchased it from the original owner who bought it approx 30 years ago. Just re-qualified here under the Federal Law/State run IROCC program. What is it worth ?

Smith & Wesson
Model 66
357 Magnum
Brush Nickle
Original grips
In the wooden box

Serial Number: 7K86208
Mod 66
12886
SC8

Thanks.
Gene
Is it a 66-1? Look on the frame, under the forcing cone after you break open the cylinder. It will say 66, or 66-1, or 66-2, etc. If the charge holes where the bullets go in the cylinder are recessed and the barrel is pinned, I'd say it's worth at least 700-800 if it has a 2" Barrel. If it has a longer barrel, a couple hundred less. I've never heard of a "brushed stainless" finish for that gun though. If it is not pinned and recessed, it's worth less.

Model 66 is a great .357. I prefer the snubs though. If I were going to carry anything physically larger than that, it would be a semi-auto.

Last edited by RSanch111; 10-14-2017 at 05:35 AM.
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