A Threat

[wingriderz]

Ok would like to get boards take on this.I was on phone with a friend for years know for 40 years.We where sharing neighborhood issuses. He lives in other state. He has very serious health issuses.So any kind of phyiscial fight could be very bad for him or fatal. I know he is full time carry as well ( 40 plus years).He shared this he had issue with a female neighbor. Over her dog and noise issuse very late at night. Well he said it came to a head one day . And she had heated words out side his gate. Kurt is in his 50's lets say his neighbor is early 30's.He he said she got so mouthy and mad she charged at him with her teenage son at fence out side fence.Kurt said he put his hand in pocket of firearm and said don't come any closer . He said she did stop along with teenage son. He said when she charged him she said she was going to beat him up. (Kurt said she was using really foul words). He asked me if he thought he did right thing?. He didnt have to draw. But he said he didn't have any doubt if he didn't stop her she would have jumped him. I said he did great. The cops where called she ran off before they got there. Some other neighbors where out and witnesed this. Cops know of this women and claim her to be violent. My board question do you stop a threat the same way on a women as a man these days. In Kurts case I say yes all the way.And you say ??

[ParadiseRoad]

...he should document the situation and his condition with the police...get a restraining order against her and her son...then if he still has to shoot to save his life...

[otasan56]

There aren't too many female murderers out there, but crippled me would shoot a violent female attacker.

[bigwheelzip]

There are some people it's best not to speak with at all. Let the PD do all the talking.

[Warren Sear]

This world is falling apart.

[Protected One]

In cases like that I don't see "man or woman"...I just see a threat, and would respond appropriately.

[wingriderz]

Originally Posted by bigwheelzip

There are some people it's best not to speak with at all. Let the PD do all the talking.

I would agree I can tell you knowing him for as long as I have. He isn't one to look for trouble like me very for most part soft spoken and polite. We bolth started riding motorcycles at 15 we bolth still ride. We bolth worked at same bike shop in school.Weird he is having neighbor issuse in another state same time we are. He has is home rural area too. He was very up set over it . I put his mind at ease. I told him to join the forum too .

[colt_saa]

Making a Police report was the correct move for that encounter.

As to stopping a threat, different States have different laws. Your buddy needs to learn what His State's laws are.

In Florida it does not matter if the threat is coming from a Man, a Woman or an Animal.

If you feel that your life or the life of another is in Jeopardy then you do what is necessary to stop the threat, up to and including the use of deadly force.

[SMSgt]

I think he would have had an uphill fight in court had he pulled a firearm on a woman and teenage kid.

[otasan56]

Originally Posted by SMSgt

I think he would have had an uphill fight in court had he pulled a firearm on a woman and teenage kid.

Even an SLA member? Symbionese Liberation Army, for those of you under 50.

[iPac]

Originally Posted by Warren Sear

This world is falling apart.

Much more than most folks even know!

Between social media and dating sites/apps, the whole younger generation is growing up without morals, ethics, or a sense of responsibility for their actions. That's partly because of the "child parents" that conceived them, but mainly due to the secretive aspect of internet communication. Especially when you consider kids as young as 7 and 8 have smartphones and full internet access. Anyone heard of "Netflix and chill"? I have seen how much damage can be done with the person having not one iota of guilt because it's assumed to be "secret".

I swear this social internet fad will be the downfall of the "good American family", who was raised with morals, values and self respect. Before anyone thinks I'm an old curmudge, I'm not and part of the younger generation. I've just seen first hand how it can ruin a good ethical person in the blink of an eye.

[otasan56]

Originally Posted by iPac

Much more than most folks even know!

Between social media and dating sites/apps, the whole younger generation is growing up without morals or ethics. Partly because of the "child parents" that conceived them, but mainly due to the secretive aspect of internet communication. Especially when you consider kids as young as 7 and 8 have smartphones and full internet access. I have seen what one can find when they are looking.

I swear this social internet fad will be the downfall of the "good American family" who came up with values and self respect. Before anyone thinks I'm an old curmudge, I'm not and part of the younger generation. I've just seen first hand how it can ruin a good ethical person in the blink of an eye.

7-year-olds with internet access? The world is going crazy.

[Arik]

You kinda lost me but if she were on her side of the fence she can run around, charge or whatever in his general direction.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[eb07]

My take and advice:

A firearm is not a magic talisman to ward off threats. Your friend should have de-escalated the situation by avoiding any contact and going inside. Especially seeing as he already knew the ladies history.

I would't go escalating things by engaging in verbal arguments with idiots then pulling a gun on them when they do exactly what the known history says they are going to do.

If he has a problem with dog noise call animal control or local LEO if he has a problem with threats and avoid any contact with this person. Period, because it is not going to end well.

[dougb1946]

Women have always been dangerous. They can and do kill men. They generally are smart enough to not get caught.

Disparity of force can involve age, size, numbers or physical status. Anybody can kill anybody, especially if weapons are involved.

[Mister X]

I don't know, there are a lot of details missing to make any kind of judgement on the situation. Shooting an unarmed woman wouldn't likely play well in the court of public opinion which can often create pressure for charges that normally wouldn't be pursued. He needs to take steps to avoid confrontation.

Based on comments I see on threads such as these, opinions do seem to be changing on the acceptable response if a man is attacked by a woman. I'm not all that old, but apparently old fashioned as I simply can't imagine striking an unarmed woman.

[otasan56]

Originally Posted by eb07

My take and advice:

A firearm is not a magic talisman to ward off threats. Your friend should have de-escalated the situation by avoiding any contact and going inside. Especially seeing as he already knew the ladies history.

I would't go escalating things by engaging in verbal arguments with idiots then pulling a gun on them when they do exactly what the known history says they are going to do.

If he has a problem with dog noise call animal control or local LEO if he has a problem with threats and avoid any contact with this person. Period, because it is not going to end well.

True; arguments between strangers in the presence of firearms seldom end peacefully.

[rwsmith]

You didn't escalate. You only stopped the threat, which was real. If two people are coming at you saying they are going to beat you up you have the right to defend yourself. And it WAS a very real threat charging and saying they were going to beat you up and I would report it as such. In case there is further trouble.

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by wingriderz

He shared this he had issue with a female neighbor. Over her dog and noise issuse very late at night. Well he said it came to a head one day . And she had heated words out side his gate. Kurt is in his 50's lets say his neighbor is early 30's.He he said she got so mouthy and mad she charged at him with her teenage son at fence out side fence. Kurt said he put his hand in pocket of firearm and said don't come any closer . He said she did stop along with teenage son.

So she stopped outside the fence? Never came onto his property? Your friend should've just walked away. Maybe gone into the house, then called the cops.

It wouldn't have been a real great idea to pull a gun on someone who isn't on your property, male or female. In some states, that's classified as assault. Some states call it "brandishing" a firearm in a threatening manner.

Anyway, he should've just walked away. Or backed away, if that would've made him feel safer.

[ISCS Yoda]

First, a threat is a threat.

Second, when it comes to the law of negligence, you take your victim as you find him (or her). So if you smack someone on the back hardly at all, as an example, but the victim has really messed up spine and you break it and paralyze him, even though it is an accident, and you didn't/couldn't know about the weak bones, you will pay for the person's damages in an amount that is equal to his injuries not in an amount equal to the very light touch that you used.

I write that brief treatise to point out that if you have any kind of weakness or health issues then anyone who threatens you is subject to a similar problem - if you don't have the ability to stop someone manually then you are obviously in fear of serious bodily harm and using a weapon is a legitimate response. NOT using it but letting someone know that you will is even better and the OP's friend did well, indeed, to indicate the presence of a firearms without revealing it.

And women are just as dangerous as men - if you think you cannot shoot a female because it is not chivalrous or something I recommend you never go anywhere alone or where it's dark or where people drink, etc.

[joeintexas]

First thing I would do is report this to the police, get a public record of her actions. List the witnesses also. Now if she stays on her side of the fence she can scream like a banshee if it makes her feel more powerful, I can always walk away. If her and her son come into my yard threatening to kick my fanny I will probably give them the opportunity. Got no use for a bully, man or woman. Having said that I would do whatever I could to avoid shooting someone.

[federali]

The courts do look at disparities in age, strength, size and sex when determining whether or not deadly force was justified. Someone with physical infirmities would have more justification on his side because of his inability to retreat with complete safety or to defend himself against a younger person.

[SATX]

I’d say be careful about having the cops show up while you are armed, have no marks of violence on you and the other party stating you threatened them with a gun.

[Whitwabit]

Originally Posted by eb07

My take and advice:

A firearm is not a magic talisman to ward off threats. Your friend should have de-escalated the situation by avoiding any contact and going inside. Especially seeing as he already knew the ladies history.

I would't go escalating things by engaging in verbal arguments with idiots then pulling a gun on them when they do exactly what the known history says they are going to do.

If he has a problem with dog noise call animal control or local LEO if he has a problem with threats and avoid any contact with this person. Period, because it is not going to end well.

Completely agree the best thing would be to de escalating the situation by retreating inside and calling the proper authority would have been my action and avoiding her in the future if at all possible ..

Engaging in any type of argument will only infuriate an individual like this .. and anyone who is unable to control their temper is a danger to those they go off on !!

[Mister X]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

And women are just as dangerous as men.

No they are not. And the Law sees it that way as well.

[Wise_A]

The issues being discussed, as it pertains to use of force, are quite similar to the Larry Hickey case.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/ima...ey_Booklet.pdf

In the context of legality, the guy did fine. He didn't brandish, and he effectively stopped the threat by communicating the following to his experienced attackers: "I am armed", and "If you attack, I will shoot".

In the context of what was the right thing to do, he had an unnecessary confrontation. It was not smart, although his actions were legal. I share prior posters' concern of the "talisman" mentality. He wouldn't engage in these sorts of altercations without a gun, therefore, he shouldn't do so when armed.

Originally Posted by Mister X

No they are not. And the Law sees it that way as well.

The law recognizes disparate force between genders. What is being suggested is that a woman is just as capable of violence as a man--even though, statistically-speaking, they are far less likely to be violent offenders. Many men underestimate women as threats, even though the capability is there. I think that actually played a role in Larry Hickey's situation--would he and his wife have engaged with two men?

**NOTE: I don't think this makes Hickey, or the OP's friend, bad people. But it's a common mistake people make. Women do the same thing--they'll engage with a woman in situations that they would avoid if their adversary was male.**

Reminds me of a good story. Medical students are shown a picture of the corpse of a very large man--well over 6' and 250 pounds in life, except he is now sans head. The scene is quite gruesome, to say the least. The medical students are asked to identify the murder weapon.

Shotgun is the first guess. Everything else comes in short order, right down to a hand grenade in the mouth. Finally, the instructor lets it spill.

A 5'6", 110-pound woman, with a hammer. He smacked her around one too many times, she grabbed the hammer and cracked him on the head. He went down, and she just kept on hitting him until there was nothing left to hit.

I believe there was a similar case around here in my neck of the woods. Hells Angel beat the holy hell out of his wife. She grabbed a kitchen knife and more or less cut him into ribbons, despite the fact that he was more than twice her size. She was tried for murder, but was acquitted.

[otasan56]

Originally Posted by Watchdog

So she stopped outside the fence? Never came onto his property? Your friend should've just walked away. Maybe gone into the house, then called the cops.

It wouldn't have been a real great idea to pull a gun on someone who isn't on your property, male or female. In some states, that's classified as assault. Some states call it "brandishing" a firearm in a threatening manner.

Anyway, he should've just walked away. Or backed away, if that would've made him feel safer.

Calling the LEOs should be the first thing to do, seeing how it takes forever for them to arrive.

[JH1951]

My advice would be to pass on some of the suggestions tendered to you by forum members when you were dealing with your own quite similar situation.
The bottom line was not to antagonize or bait, making a situation worse, and to get local law enforcement involved as soon as possible. Drawing guns was an absolute last resort to protect self or family. Guns don't typically make these situations get any better.

[Steve912]

Originally Posted by Wise_A

The issues being discussed, as it pertains to use of force, are quite similar to the Larry Hickey case.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/ima...ey_Booklet.pdf

In the context of legality, the guy did fine. He didn't brandish, and he effectively stopped the threat by communicating the following to his experienced attackers: "I am armed", and "If you attack, I will shoot".

In the context of what was the right thing to do, he had an unnecessary confrontation. It was not smart, although his actions were legal. I share prior posters' concern of the "talisman" mentality. He wouldn't engage in these sorts of altercations without a gun, therefore, he shouldn't do so when armed.



The law recognizes disparate force between genders. What is being suggested is that a woman is just as capable of violence as a man--even though, statistically-speaking, they are far less likely to be violent offenders. Many men underestimate women as threats, even though the capability is there. I think that actually played a role in Larry Hickey's situation--would he and his wife have engaged with two men?

**NOTE: I don't think this makes Hickey, or the OP's friend, bad people. But it's a common mistake people make. Women do the same thing--they'll engage with a woman in situations that they would avoid if their adversary was male.**

Reminds me of a good story. Medical students are shown a picture of the corpse of a very large man--well over 6' and 250 pounds in life, except he is now sans head. The scene is quite gruesome, to say the least. The medical students are asked to identify the murder weapon.

Shotgun is the first guess. Everything else comes in short order, right down to a hand grenade in the mouth. Finally, the instructor lets it spill.

A 5'6", 110-pound woman, with a hammer. He smacked her around one too many times, she grabbed the hammer and cracked him on the head. He went down, and she just kept on hitting him until there was nothing left to hit.

I believe there was a similar case around here in my neck of the woods. Hells Angel beat the holy hell out of his wife. She grabbed a kitchen knife and more or less cut him into ribbons, despite the fact that he was more than twice her size. She was tried for murder, but was acquitted.

Accurate, fact-based information.

Expect it to be picked apart...

[CA Escapee]

I'd say call 911 first. As far as the police are concerned the victim is the first one to call 911. If not, at least you've called 911.

Bill

[otasan56]

Originally Posted by dougb1946

Women have always been dangerous. They can and do kill men. They generally are smart enough to not get caught.

Disparity of force can involve age, size, numbers or physical status. Anybody can kill anybody, especially if weapons are involved.

True, so true. I am always watching people's hands as they pass me by. It is the hands which will produce weapons.

[TomkinsSP]

Let us say that I am driving down a street approaching an intersection. I do not have a stop sign. Cross traffic does. I see to my left a Dump Truck or Fiat 500 or mountain bike barreling down a hill, unable or unwilling to stop. If I continue an accident is not LEGALLY my fault.

But I slow and maybe stop to avoid an accident. In the case of the Dump Truck, I avoid injury. In the case of the Fiat, I avoid delay and damage ro my vehicle. In the case of the bicycle I avoid living the rest of my life KNOWING that I unnecessiaraly took a human life.

The jurisdiction I live in says that a person can use ANY REASONABLE amount of force to prevent a criminal attack against himself or his property anyplace he has a legal right to be (so long as he is not committing a criminal act at the time.) In addition it SPECIFICALLY STATES he has a right to use DEADLY FORCE to prevent a sexual assault or an assault by an armed assailant.

I don't know enough about the circumstances to know if your friend (or crazy woman) was acting in a manner the courts would consider reasonable. But is there a particular reason to find out? I am sure there are a host of factors a JURY would have to consider. Is crazy woman on her property, public property or tresspassing as she isdues a threat. Is she a 200 pound former WWF world champion, a fit 25 year old hooligan, a 45 year old retired school teacher. Is her teenaged son 13 and 115 pounds or 17 and a 200 pound tackle for his high school football team.

Note that word JURY, does he trust his fate or finances to twelve or six neighbors. Does he enjoy talking to Lawyers, a lot? As a taxpayer he pays for police or deputies, give them a shot at the situation first.

Sun-Tsu tells us we win EVERY battle we do not engage in. But we also deserve to live in peace. It is a balancing act.

In the final anaysis he should be prepared. Crazy people don't always listen to law enforcement. If he is on his property and living here in my county. And crazy woman and son attack him on his property he can use whatever level of force his neighbors deem appropriate. (If he is old and frail and my immediate neighbors are on the jury they will hold a celebration in his honor.) If he had previously sought assistance from the authorities it would demonstrate that he acted as a last resort.

[otasan56]

In my crippled condition, I would not survive and attack by a 30-ish woman and her teenage son. My Glock 17 would do my talking.

[nimbly]

I am not a lawyer. From what I understand, being infirmed generally lowers the level of threat required to be shown before the legal systems finds you justified in responding with lethal force. I am not a lawyer.

[nimbly]

I carry pepper spray also.

[sousana]

Home surveillance system. I have one that covers the house 360 degrees. It's a HD Nightvision system with voice. Records all that goes on for 7 days then records to hdd rack for storage which I keep for 6 months before deleting. Use of deadly force states you have to be in reasonable fear for your life. Reasonable fear is different for different people. A navy seal certainly would not see this as a reasonable threat to his life, but an elderly person, or one with serious health issues would.

Document, Document, Document. Then, if something happens, you have a paper trail.

[wingriderz]

Originally Posted by otasan56

In my crippled condition, I would not survive and attack by a 30-ish woman and her teenage son. My Glock 17 would do my talking.

That's his issue ad well health wise

[otasan56]

I should carry pepper spray.

[wingriderz]

Originally Posted by otasan56

In my crippled condition, I would not survive and attack by a 30-ish woman and her teenage son. My Glock 17 would do my talking.

That's his issue as well health wise. He has a aortic anyersum any blow to chest could kill him.He has to be very cautious . A car air bag could kill him

[otasan56]

Originally Posted by wingriderz

That's his issue as well health wise. He has a aortic anyersum any blow to chest could kill him.He has to be very cautious . A car air bag could kill him

My Toyota has the ability to disable airbags.

[ron_c]

Originally Posted by wingriderz

My board question do you stop a threat the same way on a women as a man these days. In Kurts case I say yes all the way.And you say ??

Absolutely yes.

A woman or child can hurt or kill you just as fast as a man can.

I'm almost 71 and I wouldn't last but about 10 seconds in a fight today, because of health issues.

No way am I going to let someone hurt me, if I can help it.

[Mister X]

Originally Posted by ron_c

A woman or child can hurt or kill you just as fast as a man can.

I'm completely baffled by comments like this one.

[ron_c]

Originally Posted by Mister X

I'm completely baffled by comments like this one.

What are you baffled about, it's a true statement.

[TomkinsSP]

Originally Posted by Mister X

I'm completely baffled by comments like this one.

If you define child as someone under 18, then of course a person under 18 could be equally or more dangerous (because they do not yet have an adult's ability to reason and understand the consequences of thier actions) than a person 18 years of age or over.

Visit a local high school on a friday night, legally those players are children, and even though I played ball 100 years ago when I was in school, I would have to resort to tricks taught by the PD to HOPE to have an even shot in a hand to hand with one.

Even younger children can be lethal if armed, Google "child soldier Africa"

Keeping everything in perspective, most adults are decent and mean you no harm, most children are decent and mean you no.harm. But anyone CAN be a threat, male or female, old or young, biker or mail carrier. You have to take people as they come. Trust but verify.

[nimbly]

Originally Posted by otasan56

I should carry pepper spray.

We have a local schizophrenic woman who tries to get into cars with people. Pepper spray is a good second choice. It is cheap, non lethal, light and easy to carry.

[eb07]

Originally Posted by wingriderz

That's his issue as well health wise. He has a aortic anyersum any blow to chest could kill him.He has to be very cautious . A car air bag could kill him

He was not being very cautious engaging in an argument with a known volatile neighbor.

Walk away. Go inside. Lock doors. Call police. A person on adrenaline can function after being shot. So his life was at risk gun or not.

[TomkinsSP]

Originally Posted by sousana

Use of deadly force states you have to be in reasonable fear for your life.

First, I wholeheartedly agree that DOCUMENTING negative encounters is very, very wise. Cameras are very, very wise. Reporting acts to suthorities when appropriate is very, very wise.

I see you live in Virginia, I am unfamiliar with statutes in the Dominion. Here the law is different. A person in a place he is legally entited to be in, and who is not commiting a criminal act, is entited to use ANY APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF FORCE REQUIRED to protect himself, innocent others OR HIS PROPERTY. The statute continues to give SPECIFIC INSTANCES where the USE OF DEADLY FORCE IS EXPLICITLY PERMITTED (to prevent sexual assaults or to prevent ASSAULT BY AN ARMED ASSALIANT). It defines a weapon as some THING that is capable of causing GREAT HARM. Another statute specifically states that a person TRESSPASSING on your property is committing a criminal act and cannot invoke the right to act in self-defense while tresspassing.

I say this not to be argumenative, but rather to point out that jurisdictions differ in thier statutes and everyone should understand the LAW, and the LIKLEY INTERPRETATION OF SAID LAW BY POLICE, PROSECUTORS, JUDGES AND JURIES where they live. Unless you live in my county, my dissertation is merely interesting (or not ).

So if a Crazy Lady and her teenaged son were tresspassing on my neighbors homestead, he would be entitled to use WHATEVER force my community deems APPROPRIATE to make them leave. If they used weapons he would have the right to use deadly force to make them leave.

Now personally I would avoid a conflict with mentally unstable people, but I am appriciative of these statutes. Law abiding citizens should not HAVE to HIDE or RUN because a criminal has chosen the parking lot, alley, park or front lawn they are in as the setting for a crime.

Your ability to run or hide is also very different if you live on a 145 acre farm or a 400 square foot condo-minimum.

[Mister X]

Originally Posted by ron_c

What are you baffled about, it's a true statement.

The OP describes an aggressive woman threatening to beat up his friend. She didn't threaten to shoot or stab him, so I'm looking at it from the perspective of a case of threatened unarmed violence.

The post I quoted said a woman or child can hurt or KILL you just as quickly as a man. No matter the age or disability of a particular victim, that simply isn't generally true.

[Wise_A]

Originally Posted by Mister X

The post I quoted said a woman or child can hurt or KILL you just as quickly as a man. No matter the age or disability of a particular victim, that simply isn't generally true.

Care to take a tour of a women's prison? It ain't this:

[TomkinsSP]

Originally Posted by Mister X

that simply isn't generally true.

If you are saying adult male humans are ON AVERAGE larger and stronger than adult female humans, or 10 year old humans I agree.

If you are saying stronger ON AVERAGE than a 13 year old male child, well maybe, but stronger than a 17 year old male child, well, the AVERAGE 18 to whatever male is what 45 or so, I am not so sure.

And the OPs freind and the poster of the comment were older than 45. And it wasn't ever stated that Crazy Lady was of AVERAGE build.

Teenaged is what 13-19 (18 if you prefer, being legal age. Boy that covers a LOT of ground.