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Old 09-24-2017, 06:37 AM
rock n roll kid rock n roll kid is offline
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for carry or home defense . have a couple of guns that have nite sights , they are of some use but in my opinion i don not believe they are a game changer. read that i would not say they would make a major contribution in winning a close quarters in counter.
my glock is a gen 11 model .... no rail to mount a laser or a light/laser combo . darn , should i sell it or trade it in on a newer model glock just to have this feature ? NO , i do not like the device you can fit on the rail less models to have this potential problem solved , would only go for the gun model that has the rail feature already machined in.
then again after reading jim cirolo's (sp) info about his experience in his many shoot outs , he could only say you have to focus on the threat and will not even have the front sight come into play ! he should know !
and i have also read a report ( when i can find the publication i will try to insert here which guy taught it ) about the reviewed actual shootings . the people he had feed back from was around 70 actual shootings i believe .
he writes that no one involved in the gun fights needed access to any lighting devices as none of the participants mentioned it
post any thoughts or experiences you have had . all thanks .
right now i am leaning toward keeping the model glock model that i have and getting in as much practice as i can in that 3-7 yard range that most bad -fast encounters develop and basically just a very quick " gun outlined against the target approach " with bare minimum use of the sights !
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Old 09-24-2017, 08:37 AM
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and i have also read a report ( when i can find the publication i will try to insert here which guy taught it ) about the reviewed actual shootings . the people he had feed back from was around 70 actual shootings i believe. he writes that no one involved in the gun fights needed access to any lighting devices as none of the participants mentioned it.
I think you may be referring to Tom Givens of Rangemaster. He has kept data compiled from self defense shootings his students have been involved in over the years.
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Old 09-24-2017, 08:39 AM
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For home defense, I have gone to a revolver with a red dot sight and a light on the rail.
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Old 09-24-2017, 09:03 AM
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I have been around 68 years now and survived one "situation" that evolved into a shooting inside house. I have two red dot sights that require batteries on revolvers for target shooting. My experience has been that when I get to the range, I find the batteries start dying while I'm shooting. Murphy's Law seems to dominate .
I can't trust my life to a battery powered anything because I tend to forget about the batteries until I turn them on. I have since bought a battery tester that shows how good-bad a battery is which helps decide when to change batteries....but I can't trust myself to NOT forget about the batteries. Even my flashlights get taken for granted until a hurricane is approaching ... then I check them.
If you are going to use lights and/or sights, in a life or death situation make sure the unit works every and all time ( a good i.e. expensive quality unit) and set up a strict schedule to test the unit and change the batteries.
In my one experience, things happened really fast, there was no time to turn on lights/lasers , only a fast response , the bad guy being a poor shot and with the grace of God I survived.
It's a personal decision to use these technological superior sighting tools and as long as they are properly working they are great, but when they stop working....they not so great.
Gary

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Old 09-24-2017, 09:16 AM
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I do not own any lasers and would not use them ever for a SD gun even if I did own one. I never want to rely on a red or green dot to shoot. If you train yourself using a laser all of a sudden you become dependent on it and actually wait to see it. I would not like that "crutch" on a SD gun.

As far as a flashlight is concerned, I don't use them mounted to a gun either and here's my rational. While they may help illuminate the bad guys, it also marks you! It would be a natural instinct for a bad guy to return fire directly at your flashlight. If you have the gun on target guess where the light is...... right between your eyes! I much prefer the ability to know my own home, we leave 4 watt night lights on which is good for me but bad for them, and if I should need additional light I will use a flashlight - but not mounted on a gun. I like the ability to hold it as far away from my body as possible, and that would naturally be the point of aim for a BG.

So that's my theory, opinion and choice - yours may differ.

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Old 09-24-2017, 09:23 AM
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Night sights are worthless if you can't see your target. An attached light makes you a target. 12" below the light is center mass and you're dead. An off hand light is the only way to go.

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Old 09-24-2017, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
I have been around 68 years now and survived one "situation" that evolved into a shooting inside house. I have two red dot sights that require batteries on revolvers for target shooting. My experience has been that when I get to the range, I find the batteries start dying while I'm shooting. Murphy's Law seems to dominate .
I can't trust my life to a battery powered anything because I tend to forget about the batteries until I turn them on. I have since bought a battery tester that shows how good-bad a battery is which helps decide when to change batteries....but I can't trust myself to NOT forget about the batteries. Even my flashlights get taken for granted until a hurricane is approaching ... then I check them.
If you are going to use lights and/or sights, in a life or death situation make sure the unit works every and all time ( a good i.e. expensive quality unit) and set up a strict schedule to test the unit and change the batteries.
In my one experience, things happened really fast, there was no time to turn on lights/lasers , only a fast response , the bad guy being a poor shot and with the grace of God I survived.
It's a personal decision to use these technological superior sighting tools and as long as they are properly working they are great, but when they stop working....they not so great.
Gary
The Crimson Trace lasers we have on 3 of our guns will start strobbing the laser if the battery starts to die. So still very usable. And the batteries are lithium, so they don't run down much at all from just sitting.

We practice with and w/o the laser, and are good with each. I've never had issue one with any of our CT products, and hope that continues. But it's good to be prepared.

Some great points about the flashlight mounted under the barrel giving a target. Laser is much harder to see that way.
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Old 09-24-2017, 10:45 AM
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I gave careful consideration to having a red dot and being battery dependent. So I have setup regular checking/replacement of the battery. Also, the red dot I have stays on overnight when I am most likely to use it. I has an auto level so as long as the sight is in a dark place, like a drawer, very little power is used.

As for a light on/off the gun. If you use a handheld light, then you are shooting with one hand with it's potential inaccuracies even if you use the cross wrist technique. Yes, it gives the bad guy a aiming location but that is the tradeoff.

As for using a laser, it is great as long as you can see the laser on the target. If you are too close (inside the distance you sighted in the laser), you won't see the laser dot. While you can see it in the dark, w/o light you can't see what you are aiming at.
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:01 AM
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I'm not a fan of weapon mounted lights (WML) on a pistol. When searching in the dark, everywhere you point the light is being muzzled; rule 2 violation.

Using a hand-held light does not mean you're shooting one handed. It just means you need a little training on how to use the light.

Night sights can be helpful, but if there's enough light to properly identify the target, plain white dots are easily seen.

A laser can be a useful tool, but shouldn't be relied on. A shooter who practices with their iron sights will have no trouble shooting with a laser. A shooter who only practices with the laser will NOT be able to effectively use their iron sights should the need arise.
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:23 AM
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Without engaging in argument or pointing fingers, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread...especially in regard to the use of lights (and night sights) and the methodologies utilized in their employment. (I can't speak to lasers as I don't use them, and only have an Aimpoint RDS on my AR.)

It would appear that some folks either have had little or no training or experience with the use of light, night sights or have just rendered judgment without knowing any better. Well, it's the internet after all.

I hope anyone reading this thread looking for "answers" will take the time to find out for themselves. The decision to do so may prove worthwhile.

Good luck.
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:56 AM
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Okay, while I have a few minutes I'll address a few of the things I take issue with.

1. I have personally experienced instances where in dim light I could see the target but could not see my gun nor its sights. I relied on instinctive shooting but it was daunting at the distance. When I switched to night sights for the same scenario at the following qualification, I was able to see my sights while acquiring the target.

Also, they help one put their muzzle on the location they believe the threat to be even if the lighting is less than adequate to fully illuminate the threat.

2. A WML does not preclude the carriage of a handheld light for searches or other tasks. That said, a WML can be flicked on and off rapidly (as required) which not only may serve to disorient a threat, it allows one to step to one side or another to change position.

Also, with the bright lights on WMLs these days, one does not need to muzzle a target. There is ordinarily sufficient spill or reflected light to illuminate a subject without aiming directly at them.

Also, having a WML on a handgun doesn't require that it be employed.

There is more but hopefully you get the gist. I have no desire to engage in argument or a war of words. Those who have made up their minds one way or another won't care either way. I am only hoping to reach those who are still trying to learn while they have an open mind.

(I come by my experience from 20+ years in law enforcement, during which time I also served on SRT and trained with other SRT, local, state, federal and military teams such as SEALs, SAS, GSG-9 etc...plus personal training outside of the job.)

I went many, many years without night sights or a WML personally and they may or may not play a part in ones plans.

What I am arguing against is misinformation so that folks can make a proper decision for themselves.

Okay, I'm out.

ETA: I do not have a WML on any of my carry firearms. Only on my designated nightstand gun. I do, however, have night sights on each of my semi-autos. None on my revolvers.
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Old 09-24-2017, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I'm not a fan of weapon mounted lights (WML) on a pistol. When searching in the dark, everywhere you point the light is being muzzled; rule 2 violation.
....... .......
.........
A laser can be a useful tool, but shouldn't be relied on. A shooter who practices with their iron sights will have no trouble shooting with a laser. A shooter who only practices with the laser will NOT be able to effectively use their iron sights should the need arise.
Words of wisdom and experience from member Rastoff, in my opinion, anyway.

I speak from the standpoint of having had laser (CT, good stuff), and getting rid of lasers in favor of practicing more with iron sights until the aim becomes more of an instinctive point, where the front sight seems not needing to be there. My response time, or target acquisition time, has shortened measurably counting on me and my firearm only.

Where I did find lasers useful was when they showed me how unsteady my 'hold' was on a target. That tipped me off that I needed much more practice to actually stay on target. So, as a training device, I could, actually I do, recommend a laser. As a crutch to supposedly enhance skills without practice, I suggest that you may trip over the crutch when you're in a clutch.

For many reasons stated above I will remain a 'minimalist', making use of no-frills equipment and training to become as close to 'one' with my EDC as possible. I guess this is a 'lesson learned' from years of trap shooting - the more you become one with your weapon, the quicker you will acquire your target, the more often you will be on target, more birds will break, and the higher your scores will become. I learned early on that being open to advice will also help boost the number of broken clays.

So, there are opinions in all directions! Your mileage may vary, no question about it. What is good for me may not be so for you, and vice versa. A friend of mine recently said,"Having a laser sight is like cheating at a gunfight." I didn't disagree, but took him to the range so that he could show me. He spent a metric ton of time lining up the laser with his target.
We agreed that he should practice and we will revisit the issue. I don't think he will practice or revisit. Hope I'm wrong.

Sorry that my tangent focused on lasers only. As for additional lighting, IMHO I am not intending to be a night hunter (as perhaps a LEO would be), but rather defending myself or close company. My perceived need for additional lighting is very limited, and I would not be attaching it to my EDC, but at best perhaps carrying an auxiliary lighting device.

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Old 09-24-2017, 12:26 PM
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Lights, lasers, and night sights are just additional tools which may or may not be necessary to those that consider using them.

If you choose to use them remember that they will not take the place of proper sight alignment and trigger control. They will not instantly make you shoot better.

The key is practice. Become proficient with the gun as it is. If you add another tool things change. Adapt to those changes and practice.
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Old 09-24-2017, 12:44 PM
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My thoughts, for whatever they're worth...

TL;DR version: I prefer neither weapon-mounted light, weapon-mounted laser, nor night sights. I like to keep things simple and rely on a handheld flashlight for illumination. My needs may not be compatible with yours, and vice versa.

The "I'm bored out of my skull and I have nothing better to do than to read this novel" version:

I view the handgun as a quick-reaction self defense tool, and if I were attacked I want my focus on my attacker. I use a target-focused approach. My focus is on the target, but I bring my gun up into my line of sight and look "through" the sights (target in-focus, fuzzy sights). This method allows me to get good hits quickly at close range, up to 5 yards or so, and even taking my time I can get decent groups up to 10 yards (the farthest I've tried, with minimal difference between target-focus and front-sight-focus). Worst-case scenario, I can still get a rough alignment between my eyes, my gun, and the target.

I've had guns with night sights. While I don't think they're bad, they're not for me. At least at this point in time. I tend to find them distracting. I prefer plain black sights. Generally speaking, if there's enough light to identify a threat, there's enough light to align your gun on target.

Speaking of which...Reference was made earlier to Tom Givens. I stumbled onto a YouTube video made by one of his students. The student took the slide of his Glock, which didn't have night sights (IIRC, it had plain black sights but with a red line painted down the center of the front sight) and took it around with him to all the places he typically goes, including at night time. Every place he visited had enough light for him to see his sights and ID threats.

I recall reading an article talking about low-light shooting. The author (it may have been Tom Givens...I can't remember) wrote that statistics showed that most shootings occurred during night time hours, which is where the idea that most shootings are low light incidents came from, but that the actual lighting conditions were generally not provided.

Of course, there are times when there may not be enough light. Which is why I keep 2 flashlights on me when out-and-about, have one on my nightstand, another by my computer, and others scattered about. Night sights can't ID threats. They allow you to reference your gun's position in relation to the target in low light, but if you can't ID the target they're not of much help. They can also help you see the gun on the nightstand in the dark. However, at least for me, that's not really necessary. Using an unloaded gun I have practiced grabbing my gun from my nightstand in my unlit bedroom. What I found is that even with the lights out there's enough ambient light coming in through the window that I can see my gun. I can also see my flashlight and can grab that, too, so I can ID potential threats.

Regarding flashlights...I've seen the arguments regarding the use of flashlights and giving away your position. Certainly possible. My thought is that the risk is worth it to be sure that the threat is actually a threat. Shining a bright light into an attacker's eyes is going to cause some disorientation in a dark room. If I've positively ID'd the threat, I can shut off the light, move, re-light, and fire if necessary (movements I've practiced...I've learned to keep the floor clutter-free by my bed...ask me how I learned that lesson... ). So, in my opinion, unless you use night vision goggles, you'll need some kind of illumination to ID threats.

Regarding lasers...I'll admit I've never used a laser. There may come a time when I will give it a try. But based on the training I've had and the practice I've done, I don't see the benefit as being worth the cost. I've heard the argument that using a laser brings your focus to the target, but that's not really true. It brings your focus to the dot where your gun is pointed. I don't want to get into the habit of looking for the dot when I should be focusing on the threat. Again, I consider the gun a quick-reaction self defense tool...Assess threat, fire if necessary. I want the chain between assessing the threat, making the decision to fire, and firing on the threat to be as short and simple as possible. While using a flashlight may be an extra step in that chain, I can't assess the threat if I can't see it.

Regarding weapon-mounted lights...I can see their utility in some circumstances. I think my issue with them stems from their operation, which either requires a pressure switch taped to the grip or a toggle on the light's body in front of the trigger guard. With a pressure switch, my concern would be gripping the gun tightly under stress and inadvertently turning the light on when I want it off. With the toggle switch, I'd have to use either my trigger finger or my support hand thumb to operate it. These are extra steps in the chain that I have to train my shooting hand to do. With the flashlight in my support hand, I can focus on shooting with my shooting hand. Obviously, I could train myself to operate a pressure switch or toggle switch, and there may come a time when I will experiment with that. But the biggest, most glaring (see what I did there?) issue is that I don't have any guns that can mount a WML.

This is just my opinion, for my own situation. As always, YMMV. Assess your needs, make whatever changes/accommodations you deem necessary, and practice.

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Old 09-24-2017, 01:31 PM
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Lots of poor information being written, and hopefully new shooters will seek out more information from other sources.

All of my home and carry guns have Crimson Trace lasers, the latest being on my Springfield Range officer Compact. My first was a S&W 642 that came from the S&W factory with a CT laser, that was 14 years ago and it has never failed and functions like new. The batteries have never failed and are changed every 6 months, whether they need it or not. The person who made the statement:

"I have two red dot sights that require batteries on revolvers for target shooting. My experience has been that when I get to the range, I find the batteries start dying while I'm shooting. Murphy's Law seems to dominate ."

is either using bad batteries or has defective sights.

I also have EOTech HWS on my AR's, and again, never had any issues with battteries. I have Magpul BUIS that co-witness with the EOTech, so batteries are not an issue anyway.

I have complete confidence and trust in Crimson Trace and would suggest anyone with doubts visit the Crimson Trace video library and view their material. If lasers and red dots are good enough for law enforcement and our military, they are more than good enough for me.

https://www.crimsontrace.com/company...media-library/
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Old 09-24-2017, 01:35 PM
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@ContinentalOp I think you may be referring to Dr. Sherman A. House (a gentleman I am happy to consider a friend I've never met face to face).

I believe he made a video of that sort and I know he has a close relationship to Tom Givens.
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Old 09-24-2017, 01:39 PM
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Okay, I'm out.
I hope not. You bring a level of not only real world experience, but rational thought that is not commonly found on internet forums.

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Old 09-24-2017, 01:48 PM
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I hope not. You bring a level of not only real world experience, but rational thought that is not commonly found on internet forums.

PM inbound.
No, buddy, I didn't mean that I was quitting, only that I had other things on the agenda for today than engaging in an internet battle. I'm a bit burned out is all.

You know I respect you and your opinions.
(Even if I don't necessarily agree, which is rare.)
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:39 PM
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IMHO when and why we need flashlights/night sights vary; so I don't think there's a hard and fast answer for all of us..............................

For the last 4-5years a Streamlight AAA/100 lumin flashlight rides in my off side jeans pocket..... from pants on to pants off........ it's my most used EDC item....... followed by my 'pocket knife" ..... I've never needed my 3913 in that time period

This past year I got a M&P9......to serve as my pants off to pants on gun.......... and added a streamlight TLR-3 125 lumin light ....... for when things go bump in the night and I have to roll out of bed in gym shorts and a T-shirt.

My house has several nightlights so I'm not walking around in the dark with the gun light as my primary illumination ...... but I do have a light if needed.

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Old 09-24-2017, 02:47 PM
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Some interesting discussion. Different circumstances call for different equipment. If I was in Law Enforcement and was searching a house, hand held light over a WML. Home owner behind cover waiting for the police to arrive, laser or red dot might be preferred. Walking in the park in the dark, hand held light better.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:48 PM
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@ContinentalOp I think you may be referring to Dr. Sherman A. House (a gentleman I am happy to consider a friend I've never met face to face).

I believe he made a video of that sort and I know he has a close relationship to Tom Givens.
The name sounds familiar, so that may very well be who it was. Thanks.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:57 PM
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Tough to put a light on my Model 10 snub, or any of my other revolvers, but I was not trained that way. We were trained to put a light in our off hand, away from our body, with the revolver in our strong hand. The idea is not to put a light in front of your vitals for the bad guy to shoot at.
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:21 PM
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There must have been at least 100 of these threads in the past few years.......

Question/thought; as a homeowner in a quite 'burb of the Burgh"..... how likely is it that I'll be confronting a gun welding burglar or intruder .... willing/wanting to engage in a shootout with a armed homeowner...... or one who will start blasting away if caught in a flashlight beam....

Sometimes I think we focus/fixate on the worse scenario we can imagine .... like the drug crazed mugger that will continue an attack like a "Viking Berserker" unless put down with the same gun we talk about in the Bear threads.

Everyone's mileage will vary..... from me to our troops in the Sandbox to the Cop answering a alarm....... from me in my t-short and shorts to soft body armor to ceramic plates and Kevler helmets......... need and available equipment will vary.

In the end we will respond with what we have...... not necessarily with what we would like.

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Old 09-24-2017, 04:19 PM
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Sometimes I think we focus/fixate on the worse scenario we can imagine ....
Isn't that a good thing? Focus on the worst possible and then when something less happens we're still prepared.
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Old 09-24-2017, 04:29 PM
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Default Let there be light ...

First off, the figure I have read is 70% of assaults occur in hours of darkness. That would imply the a defensive weapon should be at it's optimum utility in low light situations.

Identification of a threat and even realization of a threat is 100% related to our ability to see it. Threats can and often do lurk in the darkest recesses available.

The ability to light-up your World is an essential part of situational awareness. Knowing what's around you is integral. Having a good flashlight should be an essential part of your kit.

While weapon mounted lights on a handgun are TackyCool and might be useful as a weight to reduce muzzle climb, I wouldn't want to give an opponent that good of an aiming point. And sweeping the room with the light is sweeping the room with the muzzle as Rastoff so rightly points out.

Flashlights have come a long way since the 5 cell MagLight, which can still be a big stick in your offhand if you want to tote one. I have a 1000 lumen LED that fits comfortably in my pocket.

At the brightest setting it will burn your retina's out, and it will strobe at that intensity, disorienting any potential assailants and blinding them by destroying their night vision.

Night sights are also a useful edge you can give yourself. Besides the ability to see them for aiming, seeing them when the gun is not in your hand can help you find it and orient it so it can be picked up without fumbling around to find the handle.

Lasers are also a great edge to have. There is no quicker target acquisition or aiming. They do have their limitations, useful only in less than bright conditions and relatively close ranges. Very nice from behind cover without the need to fully expose yourself, lasers are great at what they are good at.

None of these devices will take the place of practice, repetition, and drill. Since shot placement still trumps all, it will usually be the person who can first deliver accurate fire who will be the one to go home at the end of the day.

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Old 09-24-2017, 04:49 PM
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Isn't that a good thing? Focus on the worst possible and then when something less happens we're still prepared.
Generally yes.......the worst "possible"......IMHO first focus on the probable


but folks on the internet like to come up with fantasy scenarios of what ifs....... when reality is most of us,mere homeowners, should be more worried about...... shooting an innocent ....than... repelling jihadie boarders......

There's a balance in there,somewhere, that varies with who we are and what we're doing....... back to; no single right answer for everyone reading or responding to this thread.

For me the humble home owner; IMO it's more important to get the best ID on a possible target than it is to be a fraction of a second faster or risk someone shooting at my flashlight or weapons light.

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Old 09-24-2017, 04:57 PM
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digiroc makes a good point................... trying shining your "light" (what ever it is) into a mirror about 10-15 feet away while looking into the reflection.......... the "effect" might give you all the time you need to get a good ID and respond......and as always movement is your friend.
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Old 09-24-2017, 06:36 PM
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If at night and in bed.. I can whisper to Alexa to turn on the lights in all or part of the house. I could even turn on the lights just on the opposite side of the house in my office as a distraction. The idea of wandering around in the home playing hide and seek with a handheld or WML is something I'll leave for others, but for inside the home I see little benefit to require yourself to use both hands for a gun and handheld light. Door knobs, star rails, assisting child... or or or... tough to do with your toes. Whatcha gonna do, holster the gun or light in your undies?

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Old 09-24-2017, 07:02 PM
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DIY SSV 5906 w/ CT laser 17+1 primarily bedside companion.


Model 69 w/ laser grips and FastFire III for deer hunting and Bear repellent


My three J's the 640 Pro Series has Trigicon's and CT laser


Now even my 547 has laser grips


Getting night sights on the 547 isn't an option, so I painted the sights with glow in the dark paint.

This works surprisingly well, much brighter than Trigicon's for about 10 minutes after a two second activation with my tactical light.

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Old 09-24-2017, 10:10 PM
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Nice looking collection! My only revolver is a 642 that has been carried for years, and shows it.

This Thread has shown there are two strong opinions on how best to carry; iron sights or electronic sights. One thought that comes to mind when discussing the use of either is that lasers enable the user to sight with both eyes open which vastly increase their field of view. A vast majority of iron sight users close one eye and squint through the other to sight the gun, thereby limiting their their field of view. Point shooting would eliminate this issue, but most shooters fail to use this method for self defense.

Just a thought that came to me while watching football, and letting the cat chase my green dot at the same time.....
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:23 AM
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Old 09-25-2017, 02:10 PM
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I am a person who uses and likes Crimson Trace Laser Grips and Laser guard sights. Every gun I own that is used for personal protection, whether for EDC, home protection, or vehicle carry, has one of these sights installed. These devices do NOT replace my gun sights. They do not come into play when I have enough light to see my sights. But they are a very useful accessory any time there is low light or no light present. Each of these sights is activated with the middle finger of my shooting hand, the one that fits immediately underneath the rear of the trigger guard and against the grip of the gun. I have learned to control whether or not the laser is activated by the use of more or less pressure on the grip with that finger. Basically all I use these lasers for is to absolutely confirm where I am aiming in poor light conditions. I can also aim the guns well if I should happen to be in a position where I cannot take my customary stance or firing position. And the laser is also useful when dry firing since it can be seen and one can tell how well he or she is handling their trigger press while maintaining the sights in the correct position throughout the the act of firing the gun.

These devices do not interfere with my grip or my ability to fire my guns in the normal way I do that. The LaserGuard sights do require some accomodation for the holsters in which those guns fitted with them are carried since these sights add some bulk underneath and in front of the trigger guard and barrel. I have found very satisfactory holsters to accomodate these Laserguard mounted guns. No changes were required for my holsters for revolvers.

I have had very excellent experience with Crimson Trace Products and have received very good service from the Company. I have had no need for any repairs to any of my several CT Laser sights, and the Company has provided free batteries for my sights since they began to offer that service. I see no negative consequences for having them mounted and I do see several very positive benefits.

These are my personal thoughts and choices. You must make your own. Remember that these devices do NOT replace my gun sights and they are little or never used when I can see my gun sights well. But they are a great comfort and benefit when I cannot see those same gunsights well. You will have to decide for yourself if having these laser sights are of any benefit to you. I have simply related my own experience and reasons for having and using them in addition to the fact that they have stood the test of EDC and use for a very long period of time.

Edit: These sights do not take the place of a good hand held flashlight. I do not use them to identify targets if that is necessary.
I use them specifically to be able to properly and carefully aim my weapon when I cannot see my gunsights well.
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Old 09-25-2017, 05:09 PM
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yes ... tom givens had feed back on this subject in sept./oct of this year in american handgunner .
the info from jim cirillo was taken from confessions of modern day gunfighter.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:03 PM
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Okay, while I have a few minutes I'll address a few of the things I take issue with.

1. I have personally experienced instances where in dim light I could see the target but could not see my gun nor its sights. I relied on instinctive shooting but it was daunting at the distance. When I switched to night sights for the same scenario at the following qualification, I was able to see my sights while acquiring the target.

Also, they help one put their muzzle on the location they believe the threat to be even if the lighting is less than adequate to fully illuminate the threat.

2. A WML does not preclude the carriage of a handheld light for searches or other tasks. That said, a WML can be flicked on and off rapidly (as required) which not only may serve to disorient a threat, it allows one to step to one side or another to change position.

Also, with the bright lights on WMLs these days, one does not need to muzzle a target. There is ordinarily sufficient spill or reflected light to illuminate a subject without aiming directly at them.

Also, having a WML on a handgun doesn't require that it be employed.

There is more but hopefully you get the gist. I have no desire to engage in argument or a war of words. Those who have made up their minds one way or another won't care either way. I am only hoping to reach those who are still trying to learn while they have an open mind.

(I come by my experience from 20+ years in law enforcement, during which time I also served on SRT and trained with other SRT, local, state, federal and military teams such as SEALs, SAS, GSG-9 etc...plus personal training outside of the job.)

I went many, many years without night sights or a WML personally and they may or may not play a part in ones plans.

What I am arguing against is misinformation so that folks can make a proper decision for themselves.

Okay, I'm out.

ETA: I do not have a WML on any of my carry firearms. Only on my designated nightstand gun. I do, however, have night sights on each of my semi-autos. None on my revolvers.

The fact that you have trained with GSG-9 says a lot about your expertise in this area.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:34 PM
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The fact that you have trained with GSG-9 says a lot about your expertise in this area.
I don't claim to be an expert...but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

(Thank you for the kind words, brother.)
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:13 AM
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Have WML on M&P R8 and G-17 with Galco Halo holster.
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:33 AM
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Lasers seems to be fun to mess with at the range, but seem to be impractical in a sd situation. They're just another thing to think about while in a somewhat panic condition. I have night sights on my pm9, that's enough. Nothing like having a beacon on your gun saying 'here I am, shoot me'!

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Old 09-26-2017, 11:38 AM
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Lasers seems to be fun to mess with at the range, but seem to be impractical in a sd situation. They're just another thing to think about while in a somewhat panic condition.
Have you even shot a laser equipped weapon? There is no required thinking involved. Do you use your night sights with both eyes open?
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:50 PM
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Recently, I attended night shooting training.
A real eye opener, to say the least.
In really dark places, a laser alone is of little use.
We trained using handheld flashlights in different ways.
Takeaways included that night sights are a big help in low light.
Up close, really close, forget sights.
Have a lanyard on your light.
My HD gun also wears a lanyard so I can control it if I need both hands for something.

I don't carry this house gun.
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:51 PM
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Some of y'all need to spend some time doing force on force exercises as the bad guys. This doesn't have to be too strenuous, pointing fingers can substitute as firearms, but do all the rest of the stuff as realistic as possible.

I think you'll find that a lot of the assumptions cited above will prove to be not exactly as expected.
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Old 09-29-2017, 06:08 AM
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So I recently had occasion to shoot a night match with independent navigation and movement through stages. Anything went as far as sights and lights on handguns.
Here's what I learned from participation and observation:
• The urge to shoot at a strobe light shined in my eyes is real. A cop's kid thought he'd be cute and strobe everyone on a bay as they walked by. Naturally everyone thought it was a gun pointed at them and nobody bought his excuse of not knowing better and even dad sounded stupid trying to defend it. I digress, but you get the point the light draws attention.
• Gun smoke makes lights less effective at longer distances beyond fifteen to twenty feet. The higher the lumens, the bigger the problem. Think high beams in fog.
• Lasers are excellent even in smoke; advantage was seen in all shooter levels.
• Additional lights moving all over the place are very disorienting to the point of disrupting equilibrium and causing stumbles. You have no control over them and they affect your night vision and perception of the horizon.

My takeaway was that the light, laser, and night sight combination was best, but if I could have only one on the gun it would be the laser. Being able to effectively fire off of the traditional focal plane is a huge advantage.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:06 AM
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Did anyone use weapons with ported barrels or compensators? Muzzle flash at night can be surprisingly bright and a distraction. Shooting a revolver in the dark is exciting with fire coming out of everywhere. A ported barrel would seem to make the muzzle flash even worse by sending it vertically in front of your face. Your description of smoke and lights is interesting.
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Old 09-29-2017, 04:10 PM
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Practice and train for whichever perceived threat as best as one can. With the OP's analysis, it is prudent to start with the statistically close encounter.

Later, whether a day later or years later, consider getting whatever lower-light training which may include night-sights and/or weapon mounted lights. Now you'll have a choice (with an educated investment in more hardware) and have the knowledge to make a much better-informed choice.

The OP seems to be constrained by not wanting to buy a different gun. That's fine with me and I don't recommend getting rid of a handgun a person is already very comfortable with handling. If a person can't afford or doesn't want to try a gun with a light rail, with further expenditures in night sights and lights (I've got zero experience with lasers and they weren't authorized where I worked) that's a personal choice which easily can end up in the $1,000 range. It's not up to me to tell someone how to spend his/her money and this is just for the hardware; not any training to benefit the hardware.

What exactly was/were the question(s)?
Are night sights necessary? The can't hurt, but I haven't put them on all 15 handguns I own but do have a few which have night sights should I need them.
Is a weapon light necessary? That will also depend on one's training & experience along with the liklihood of being in darkness. I've got ~5 weapon-mounted-lights (WMLs) leftover from being a cop and my training involves also carrying a handheld light. The handheld light is the bare minimum and this training predates the WMLs.

"Blues7" seems to have the most experience using lighting and has the best advice. I say, at least, get one or two good handheld flashlights. I like the Streamlight and Surefire brands, but there are others. Later, consider night sights and a WML (again I've only got Streamlight and Surefire, but there are others; the two brands I own were the only brands OK'd for where I worked).

I admit, I don't change over the a WML'd handgun just to go out at night. I do have a flashlight on me even during the day.
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:47 PM
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I have a light on my sig house gun and looking to get a CT combo for my sheild 45 EDC.
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Old 09-29-2017, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
So I recently had occasion to shoot a night match with independent navigation and movement through stages. Anything went as far as sights and lights on handguns.
Here's what I learned from participation and observation:
The urge to shoot at a strobe light shined in my eyes is real. A cop's kid thought he'd be cute and strobe everyone on a bay as they walked by. Naturally everyone thought it was a gun pointed at them and nobody bought his excuse of not knowing better and even dad sounded stupid trying to defend it. I digress, but you get the point the light draws attention.
Gun smoke makes lights less effective at longer distances beyond fifteen to twenty feet. The higher the lumens, the bigger the problem. Think high beams in fog.
Lasers are excellent even in smoke; advantage was seen in all shooter levels.
Additional lights moving all over the place are very disorienting to the point of disrupting equilibrium and causing stumbles. You have no control over them and they affect your night vision and perception of the horizon.

My takeaway was that the light, laser, and night sight combination was best, but if I could have only one on the gun it would be the laser. Being able to effectively fire off of the traditional focal plane is a huge advantage.
Nice info. Thanks!
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:50 AM
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Default Lady Smith gets Big Dot ...



Quality night sights allow aimed fire in low light conditions and in my opinion are an essential aid. The Lady Smith pictured above just got it's Big Dot Trigicon installed greatly increasing utility by providing a low light aim point.

The front sight being the most important element to aimed fire, the Big Dot is great in all lighting conditions. It's very easy to achieve combat accuracy. Just settle the large dot in the rear U channel and it shoots POA.

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Last edited by digiroc; 09-30-2017 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:25 AM
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I agree w/Chief38, that's how I was trained when we were issued revolvers. In addition I've been in three deadly force encounters during my 30 year LEO career and just feel safer w/a revolver in one hand and the light, held away from me, in the other.
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  #48  
Old 10-03-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
Gun smoke makes lights less effective at longer distances beyond fifteen to twenty feet. The higher the lumens, the bigger the problem. Think high beams in fog.
This is an excellent point and should be emphasized more.

A common misconception is that the brighter the light, the better. This is simply not true. In fact, a light that's too bright, used indoors, will serve to blind you as much as the bad guy. It's not just smoke, but reflection off walls, floors and ceilings. Heaven forbid you accidentally point it at a mirror.

I too went to a night training. I learned that my 250 lumen light was far more than I would ever need in a self-defense scenario. I now have a 100 lumen light and it is perfect.
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Old 10-04-2017, 01:00 AM
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My 1000 lumen light has a selector that starts out at a very low power. But you can rachet up in power with a thumb press, ultimately to blinding strobe.

Like OldCop I was trained to carry the light in my weak hand and well away from my body. Back then it was heavy D cell MagLights which were also an effective bludgeon.

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Old 10-04-2017, 06:31 PM
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I asked my Wing Chun sifu what he thought about the the Harries technique. When he quit laughing he confirmed what I already thought. It is not a very smart technique for ECQB.
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