Shooting at Colorado Walmart

[mnshutterbug]

From the Denver Post - "Shoppers pulled guns in response to Thornton Walmart shooting, but police say that slowed investigation.
Authorities had to eliminate possible suspects from surveillance video."

Armed Walmart shoppers slowed police in shooting investigation

I've been taught not to pull your weapon unless you plan on using it. I know I wouldn't pull my pistol unless I have a target. Besides, officers hear of a shooting with casualties and they rush in and a trigger happy LEO sees me with a gun...

[RV4driver]

What I took away from the news, is that you don't know where or when an issue will present itself. In Colorado, just fairly recently, we've had the Colorado Springs church shooting, the theater shooting, and this at a Thornton WalMart. I see again and again how people carry depending on the "area" they will be frequenting. I'd say, you don't know what that will be from day to day. Thornton WalMart would be considered fairly benign in these parts. Oh, and the theater, too. Oh, and also the Church. See a pattern here? That's right! There's no pattern. Carrying is kind of like preparing for a biohazard, you don't just double-glove for the HIV patients, you prepare ALL THE TIME, as you don't know who is HIV positive, or Hep-c or whatever.

[mnshutterbug]

Being prepared doesn't necessarily mean having it drawn.

[Targets Guy]

"slowed their investigation" - that's a good one. The videos must not be time stamped. Hey you guys, if the time the gun is shown being pulled is after the shooting time it might not be the shooter.

How quickly after the shooting did the police get to the video and view it?

[bigwheelzip]

I'd guess my reaction might depend on proximity. If the murders are happening on the other side of a large store I might react differently than if people are screaming and dying on the adjacent aisle.
I hope I never find out.

[Absalom]

As has been said, such situations are too unpredictable and fluid to make any hard and fast rules. That’s where good judgment comes in.

If you draw your gun too early or unnecessarily, you can inadvertently escalate and make a situation more dangerous, or even get yourself killed.

If you draw too late, it may literally be too late.

Be that as it may, reading the article and the police comments, facilitating or slowing the speed and efficiency of the police investigation would not be the primary factor in my decision if and when to draw. Surviving would be.

[robertrwalsh]

Its a good thing that nobody in that store had a gun or somebody might have gotten hurt.

[okiegtrider]

I'm not buying it at all. I doubt seriously that the presence of armed citizens slowed down the identification of the shooter much, if any at all.

I've seen a lot of Walmart surveillance footage over the years and worked with some of the operators in several stores. It's no big chore for them to isolate activity occurring in a given part of one of their stores. The gear they use is on par with that of casinos, and the stores are generally much better lighted.

Like one poster here already said, if they are looking at someone with a gun after the shooting, given their actions and proximity to the event, a pretty quick look is going to tell the tale if they are involved in the criminal violence.

Add to the mix that Walmart has at the corporate level, their "global security", people. Real pros, who bring their expertise to the aid of Law Enforcement right quick. I've actually seen one of them sitting here in Oklahoma, showing us near real time images of a west coast store, and producing from the same computer, images of sales slips for items purchased by suspects he'd just shown us.

I've no doubt that a police spokesman said something about these armed citizens being a factor. What else would a talking head say to media in a PC, mile high major city like Denver? However, the article chose to quote vary sparingly as they crafted this notion around very few actual words of the police spokesman. The longest quote in the article was in reference to the fluidity of the situation. Feels like manipulated, fake news, spoon fed to an audience that by and large knows no better and more than willing to accept what a, "respected", news organization gives them.

FWIW, the real story should be that in a major city,out of millions of people, cops had this animal identified in five hours and arrested in about fourteen hours of the event. Pretty darn good police work. And hardly, "trigger happy", at all.

[GaryS]

Maybe they had to wait for it to be developed at CVS?

Originally Posted by Targets Guy

"slowed their investigation" - that's a good one. The videos must not be time stamped. Hey you guys, if the time the gun is shown being pulled is after the shooting time it might not be the shooter.

How quickly after the shooting did the police get to the video and view it?

[Yiogo]

Interesting. So how would the police want us to handle the situation? I'm curious.

We can learn from this.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Please. I'm open.

First thing for me, is gather my wife behind me. I don't go to Walmart usually. If I do it is with her. I know. Same situation at Walmart a concealed carry holder was shot in the back. Get her behind me and hold on to me. Both heads on a swivel. Back to back.

Second, draw. Sorry. I've got to protect her. That's #1. I can appreciate the police have a job to do but mine is more immediate. Protect my wife.

Third, find cover. I can control and direct her to safety and/or cover.

Fourth, call 911.

Fifth, when police arrive and take over. gun gets holstered.

That's the way I see it.

I pray that never happens here.

[Spokes]

I agree with Oakie. I am sure the media has colored the whole situation and most police spokesman take orders from politicly appointed chiefs.
I know from my own experience... I had one case on the 4-12 shift about an assault an robbery. The Lt. had to talk to the reporter and give the facts that he could for the newspapers. When I read what was written in the paper I could not believe my eyes. It was totally different than what was told to the reporter..Always look at these reports with a jaundice eye..

[mnshutterbug]

[QUOTE=Spokes;139802211 I had one case on the 4-12 shift about an assault an robbery. The Lt. had to talk to the reporter and give the facts that he could for the newspapers. When I read what was written in the paper I could not believe my eyes. It was totally different than what was told to the reporter..Always look at these reports with a jaundice eye..[/QUOTE]

Makes sense. I recall a short stint with a small town paper where I was hired as a photographer/reporter. I reported on a story and did the write up. At the final layout I noticed the editor, also the owner, added things that were supposedly said. I pointed out that was not at all what was said and he told me if I didn't like it to go ahead and remove it before it went to press. I did and my position was terminated within a month. I guess it's called editorializing.

[jframejoey]

"a trigger happy LEO sees me with a gun..."

Yup just dying to plug someone so they can carve a notch in their gun I guess.

[bill2000]

How unsportsmanlike of those potential victims to screw things up for the police investigation. They should have waited to be shot, thereby eliminating as many suspects as possible.

[misswired]

As in any situation; protocol is run, hide,THEN fight. I don't pretend to be a tactical operator in any sense of the imagination and would want to be as far away from the shooter and the local tacticool wannabes as possible. Hopefully finding an exit while running or a hiding place farthest as possible away from the shooter. Drawing a weapon would be the last resort.

I don't carry to be a hero and save the public; if you need a saviour in that scenario.... Call a cop!

[mnshutterbug]

Originally Posted by bill2000

How unsportsmanlike of those potential victims to screw things up for the police investigation. They should have waited to be shot, thereby eliminating as many suspects as possible.

They might have not even been in any danger. They might have just heard the shooting from the other side of the large store and panicked. That is probably more than likely the scenario.

[Retired LTC, USAR]

I think it all depends on how you "draw" your gun.

I might draw mine but keep it by my side where many might draw theirs and bring it to a full ready position.

[Walkingwolf]

I'm guessing that the many witnesses gave descriptions of the shooter as soon as the police arrived. Old fashioned law enforcement of interviewing witnesses. Anti gun article bordering on politics, I won't waste time on giving the author the time of day. Thread probably should be closed based on site rules.

[shell627]

How dare those citizens refuse to be sheep!

[serger]

Here's an excerpt from a letter I wrote to one of the guys I worked with in the Denver metro:

"That Walmart is the one I always went to after I went to Sportsmans Warehouse on the drive
back to Brighton. They usually had better prices on .22's than the warehouse.

The 3 rules I got out of the Denver Post article were:

1. ALWAYS CARRY. Put it on top of your wallet and keys so you pick it up first when you
get ready to leave the house.

2. The police are always there after the fact so you have to fall back to rule 1.

3. Constantly scan your surroundings for threats because of rule 2.(Cops being there after the fact)

I saw Thornton PD whined the concealed carriers slowed down the investigation. I'm sure they were
protecting themselves and not looking for the BG to engage him. That was the Police's job.
( And they get a D- for being there after the fact .)

This is not a put down of law enforcement. They are just stretched way too thin. As a result, you can't
carry a cop in your back pocket.

Here's the Vid we saw this week at work, It's made by the City of Houston:

YouTube

Now that I'm in the great white north, I carry when we go out to the Mall or grocery shopping.
Not much else. I might have to reconsider that. "

End of excerpt

[nachogrande]

Condolences to the victims & families. Luckily it didn't turn into a circular firing squad with good guys & police shooting other good guys. It's been a concern of mine & exactly the place I thought of. Can't say I would have done differently, I hope I wouldn't draw without a target, but who knows. Did it slow the investigation? I'm sure it did. I can't imagine being a LEO rolling up on an active shooting scene where "everyone" is holding a gun.

[elm_creek_smith]

I don't carry a gun when I go to WalMart. I carry two guns.

[Spawndn72]

The article doesn't say where the armed citizens were in relation to the shooter, but since we are speculating here, isn't it possible that he quit shooting and left when someone drew their gun?

[GaryS]

Carry. All. The. Time.

Unless you're going somewhere where firearms are not allowed. In that case I think carefully whether or not I need to go there.

I'm not buying the line about the concealed carriers slowing down the investigation.

Originally Posted by serger

Here's an excerpt from a letter I wrote to one of the guys I worked with in the Denver metro:

"That Walmart is the one I always went to after I went to Sportsmans Warehouse on the drive
back to Brighton. They usually had better prices on .22's than the warehouse.

The 3 rules I got out of the Denver Post article were:

1. ALWAYS CARRY. Put it on top of your wallet and keys so you pick it up first when you
get ready to leave the house.

2. The police are always there after the fact so you have to fall back to rule 1.

3. Constantly scan your surroundings for threats because of rule 2.(Cops being there after the fact)

I saw Thornton PD whined the concealed carriers slowed down the investigation. I'm sure they were
protecting themselves and not looking for the BG to engage him. That was the Police's job.
( And they get a D- for being there after the fact .)

This is not a put down of law enforcement. They are just stretched way too thin. As a result, you can't
carry a cop in your back pocket.

Here's the Vid we saw this week at work, It's made by the City of Houston:

RUN. HIDE. FIGHT.(R) Surviving an Active Shooter Event - English - YouTube

Now that I'm in the great white north, I carry when we go out to the Mall or grocery shopping.
Not much else. I might have to reconsider that. "

End of excerpt

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by bigwheelzip

I'd guess my reaction might depend on proximity.

Proximity is always important, but, even though I'm slow, I can cross a Walmart in less than 30 seconds. I don't have time to wait to see IF there's a threat. If I hear shots...well I'll explain in a minute...

Originally Posted by Yiogo

First thing for me, is gather my wife behind me.

I pray that never happens here.

I also pray it never happens anywhere, but this is why we should always carry.

I like your concept of protecting your family first, but I'd like to make a modification:

1. Look for an exit and with my family, head toward it. I will put myself between potential fire and my family if possible.
2. If I can't get out, present to the ready and get behind cover.
3. Have my wife/son/someone who it not me, call 911. As the armed individual, I need to be concentrated on the events at hand. I can't afford to have my attention divided between the threat and the phone.

Most decent people want to stop the assault in progress. That's great, but you can't do it if you're not safe yourself. So, just like when the oxygen masks drop in the plane, make yourself safe first, then help others.

Here's what Rob Pincus said about it:

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

I advise people to keep their gun holstered, with their hand on it in what we teach as the "staged" position, when responding to any situation like this when they are not in the immediate presence of the threat... and never to extend the gun from a Compressed Ready Position until they are ready to shoot.
You don't want to look like a threat to other good guys...

Do you agree with him?

[serger]

I have been discussing my e-mail with my friend in the Metro.

He said people he's talked to made the comment they wouldn't
engage a bad guy due to liability concerns because CO doesn't
have a "Stand Your Ground" statute to act as umbrella protection
in the event you shot a bad guy. Even though you were not
charged by the government, the bad guys significant others took
you to court and sued you was his concern.

The general feeling being, "If I'm not in the line of fire, I won't
shoot even though I might pull my gun."

[nachogrande]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I'm not buying the line about the concealed carriers slowing down the investigation.

OK, you show up to multiple people holding weapons in the open, (NOT CONCEALED). Kinda hard to call them CC's when the guns ARE NOT CONCEALED.
Just how are the LEO'S supposed to tell the good guys from the bad Guys? Cuz I said "I'm a good guy" or wearing a CC badge don't cut it in my book. I'm not trying to fault anyone. I'm pretty sure those CC's all had good intentions & I may have done the very same thing, it's just kinda obvious & easy to see how confusing & hard tell the good guys from the bad it may have been. Gotta go to the instant replay for the official ruling. I'll go along with Pincus.

[GaryS]

Do you really think that the CC folks were standing there gun in hand when the police arrived? From reading the article, it appeared that the police were commenting on the time they had to spend searching through the video to screen out the non bad guys from the bad guys.

Originally Posted by nachogrande

OK, you show up to multiple people holding weapons in the open, (NOT CONCEALED). Kinda hard to call them CC's when the guns ARE NOT CONCEALED.
Just how are the LEO'S supposed to tell the good guys from the bad Guys? Cuz I said "I'm a good guy" or wearing a CC badge don't cut it in my book. I'm not trying to fault anyone. I'm pretty sure those CC's all had good intentions & I may have done the very same thing, it's just kinda obvious & easy to see how confusing & hard tell the good guys from the bad it may have been. Gotta go to the instant replay for the official ruling. I'll go along with Pincus.

[Ray1970]

The Walmart in question is a couple of miles from my house. I never go there as the one or two times I did the class of people there struck me as sub par. When I heard about the shooting I can honestly say it didn’t totally surprise me.

The latest media rumors are that the shooter is racist and chose his victims based on their ethnicity. Not sure if there’s any truth to that or if it’s just the usual media garbage.

At least it seems your local Walmart has better video surveillance than a certain Las Vegas casino.

[fiasconva]

Most of us carry for situations just like this. I'd have drawn, put the little lady behind me and looked for a way out of the store. It may have been the only chance I had to draw. Survival of both of us is the first priority.

[CH4]

Originally Posted by jframejoey

"a trigger happy LEO sees me with a gun..."

Yup just dying to plug someone so they can carve a notch in their gun I guess.

Or use a soldering iron to melt a notch in their plastic gun.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by nachogrande

OK, you show up to multiple people holding weapons in the open, (NOT CONCEALED). Kinda hard to call them CC's when the guns ARE NOT CONCEALED.
Just how are the LEO'S supposed to tell the good guys from the bad Guys?

Obviously you didn't read the article. That's not how it happened at all. They say they were slowed down because of the people they saw on the surveillance video.

How are they supposed to tell? By the way they stand and act. Did they present after the initial shooting? Then they're probably a good guy.

[SATX]

Seriously, Walmart stores are not that huge. Do you think cops will leave their weapons holstered when entering the front doors because the shooter was reportedly shooting in the rear? Come on, everybody wants to go home alive.

[tlawler]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Do you really think that the CC folks were standing there gun in hand when the police arrived? From reading the article, it appeared that the police were commenting on the time they had to spend searching through the video to screen out the non bad guys from the bad guys.

That was my take on it too. I’m sure all of the concealed weapons were safely holstered by the time the PD got on scene. All the more reason to keep your weapon at the “staged” position until a threat is imminent.

[Whitwabit]

This same scenario was discussed in the conceal carry class I took .. and I have discussed it with my wife who I would likely be with ..

Shots fired in a large building like that could echo and you might not know exactly where the shot(s) are coming from for a few seconds or longer ..

I wouldn't draw but would have my hand on the weapon and look for and seek cover with my wife behind looking behind us and move toward an exit I have already identified ..

I have already check where doors leading outside and to storerooms are in the local stores we shop in .. doing this in advance gives you a huge advantage over not knowing in an emergency !! I do that to any building I enter .. knowing where exits are is vital !!

[Spokes]

Some people just believe everything that they read in the papers or see in the driveby media is absolutely true..Not true folks...
They are against CC for citizens and they will do anything to hurt us ...
Wake up!
Read again what Gary S. writes and let it sink in. He knows what he says..

[nachogrande]

Originally Posted by SATX

Seriously, Walmart stores are not that huge. Do you think cops will leave their weapons holstered when entering the front doors because the shooter was reportedly shooting in the rear? Come on, everybody wants to go home alive.

It's been 35 years since I lived in Westminster & downtown Denver, so I wasn't in that particular WM. The WM's here are about the biggest stores around, especially the super centers. YES I read the linked article, & NO I don't believe everything I read. Too many unanswered questions, updates I haven't read likely exist. IDK about the police response time, but I have to believe a unit (at least) showed up before everyone was cleared from the bldg. & if any CC's fired any shots, etc. Time will reveal more I'm sure.

[Kifaru]

I think the investigators are looking for excuses and assigning blame as to why it took so long to locate the suspect. The armed citizen argument seems more political than practical, a red herring.

Regardless, and I hate to sound callous, but if I'm with my family and shooting starts, I'm getting them to the nearest exit. I will probably move my cover garment so that I can get a hand on my revolver, but it stays in the holster. I figure a drawn gun will make me a target--a target to LEOs, a target to the shooter(s), a target to other CCW holders, a target to whomever; it doesn't matter. And if I become a target while trying to get my family to safety, that makes my family the backstop. That's not going to happen. Sorry.

I would hate to see innocent people hurt or killed, but they had the same chance to spend the not inconsiderable time, effort, and money that I have to get the equipment and training to protect themselves, and they chose not to. I'm not a cop. I don't have a radio or backup or the city's budget at my disposal for my defense in court. Now if I were alone, it might be a different story. Maybe. If I saw the situation unfold from the start. If I had clear lanes of fire and a solid backstop. If the gunman posed an immediate and clear threat. That's a lot of ifs.

I live about 25 minutes from that Walmart, but I've never been there. It's in a bit of a sketchy neighborhood. In fact, I avoid ANY Walmart after dark. Sketchy neighborhood, sketchy time of day, sketchy store, nope, I wouldn't have had any reason to have been there when the shooting started. I carry to avoid trouble, not find it.

[CA Escapee]

What I took away from the story was that the police had to determine whether anyone with a gun drawn had fired and hit any of the three victims.

I think with all the cameras in that store, and in any Walmart for that matter, they'd have to watch the video taken from several cameras. With the situation I described above it would take even more time.

At one point in time that night the KWGN, channel 2 website was reporting there were reports of two shooters.

I drive past that store on my way home from work and have thought about stopping in to pick up some things. Due to the fact that I can't carry anything more than pepper spray at work, I pass the store until the next day when I am carrying more than pepper spray.

Bill

[arjay]

Armed Walmart shoppers slowed police in shooting investigation

[nachogrande]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Obviously you didn't read the article. That's not how it happened at all. They say they were slowed down because of the people they saw on the surveillance video.

How are they supposed to tell? By the way they stand and act. Did they present after the initial shooting? Then they're probably a good guy.

Guilt or innocence can be determined by posture. That's how it happened because "THEY" said so in a news report???

[federali]

As I don't want to "slow down" a police investigation or have the PC media label me a mall ninja or cop wannabe, I will not draw my licensed handgun. Instead, I'll allow myself to be shot.

[mbok]

How different would this story be if one of those CCW holders had been able to intervene and shoot the shooter, preventing those fatalities or maybe more?

[keith44spl]

I'm not buying the 'slow down' thing neither.

As an investigator, ya gotta watch the vids regardless.....It's evidence, Gees.

Everyone is a suspect.......till ruled otherwise,


.

[LoboGunLeather]

I was not at the Thornton WalMart incident so I can't say with any certainty what any of the facts and circumstances may have been. I do know with reasonable certainty that law enforcement officials in the greater Denver Metro area (which includes Thornton) are usually opposed to citizens' rights to firearms or self-defense, and certainly not above politicizing such incidents as a means of denigrating any lawful possession or use of firearms by the public. It also would not surprise me if a journalist picked up on a comment by LE spokesmen to the effect that investigators had to repeatedly review security recordings to separate lawfully armed citizens from criminal suspects, and turned that into anti-gun reporting.

Secondly, I can envision being inside a large retail store when shooting breaks out, and I don't think that assuming a defensive posture (including having my handgun ready for use if necessary) would be an unreasonable act. Moving to a position offering as much view of approaches as possible, barricading behind store displays, hunkering down, and remaining ready to engage a threat all strike me as pretty reasonable responses. It would also be entirely reasonable, upon the approach of uniformed officers, to lay down my weapon and assume the most non-threatening posture possible.

In short, I'd rather worry about follow-up investigators stressing over images of me with a pistol in hand and assuming the strongest possible defensive position than I would want to worry about armed thugs or terrorists moving aisle to aisle and shooting down unarmed victims with impunity.

[HCH]

Originally Posted by mnshutterbug

and they rush in and a trigger happy LEO sees me with a gun...

Don't forget about innocent children getting caught in the cross fire. Oh the horror.

[Yiogo]

Rastoff, good points about moving towards an exit and having hand on holster rather than drawn.

Thanks.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Yiogo

Rastoff, good points about moving towards an exit and having hand on holster rather than drawn.

Thanks.

Just to be perfectly clear, it was Rob Pincus that wants you to keep your hand on the gun without drawing/presenting. I don't agree with him.

If there is an active threat, that could end my or my family's life, I want my gun out. I want to avoid any potential hangup while trying to present my firearm.

Think of it this way. It's concealed. To keep your hand on it while waiting for the threat means you'll have to have your concealment cleared as well. Do you think it's a good idea to attempt to keep your concealment garment out of the way for a protracted time? I don't know about you, but after a minute or two, my support hand will likely start to slip down a little. This would serve to not keep my concealment out of the way sufficiently. Then, should I need to present, it might get in the way and cause me to fumble. That would be bad.

No, I want it out. When the threat is over, I'll reholster.

[mnshutterbug]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

It's concealed. To keep your hand on it while waiting for the threat means you'll have to have your concealment cleared as well. Do you think it's a good idea to attempt to keep your concealment garment out of the way for a protracted time? I don't know about you, but after a minute or two, my support hand will likely start to slip down a little. This would serve to not keep my concealment out of the way sufficiently. Then, should I need to present, it might get in the way and cause me to fumble. That would be bad.

Depends on what state you are in.

[Yiogo]

Rastoff,
I think there is no right or wrong but having a plan is good.
Everything is situational. If shots are fired, if the threat is imminent, then gun comes out.
I pocket carry 95% of the time anyway so my hand is not going to get tired.
If the Exit is too far, I find cover and wait it out. Bad guys might be at the exit too.
Consideration #1 are my loved ones and getting them to safety.
Good discussion.