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Old 10-05-2017, 12:00 PM
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I have to admit, I'm a little surprised at the result. I can't fault the judge and am heartened that the focus was where it should have been.

It's one of the reasons I love my adopted state...compared to California:

Dog owners cited after September incident ending in pet shooting | The Herald Journal | news.hjnews.com
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:18 PM
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Sounds like a good decision to me.

Four years ago a neighbors pit bull bit me. It was a mean dog and neighbors complained to the township to make the dog owner control his dog by leash or containment.

On day while walking by the property I saw the dog approaching unleashed and alone. I stopped for A second and then Began to walk again. The dog charged, jumped and latched onto my left forearm. I dropped to my knees and followed my earlier training. Stop, drop, freeze the arm, look the dog in the eyes, and then punch it in the nose with all the night you can muster. Freezing makes the dog feel in control so it does not thrash about and tear your arm up. Eye contact is disconcering to the dog because it expects you to be terrified. Punching the nose inflicts pain and can get the dog to release. It also elongates the puncture wounds.

The dog did not release and I shot it with my 9mm. It’s owner came rushing out of the house berating me. A neighbor who was a nurse came out with clean towels to wrap my arm. Someone called the police who did a fast on scene evaluation. The dog owner wanted me arrested for killing his dog. The police cited him for failing to control a an aggressive by leash or confinement. He pressed charges against me. The judge made him,pay my medical expanses and fined him $100 for failure to abide by ordinances and losing control of a dangerous animal. Justice done.

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Old 10-05-2017, 01:25 PM
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My county has an absolute leash law -- all dogs with the exception of hunting dogs actually being used for hunting and herding dogs being used for herding, must be leashed or confined at all times. Period. When I used to work at 911, one of our most frequent calls was, "My neighbor just shot my dog!" The first question responding officers always asked was, "Was your dog leashed or confined in your yard?" When the answer was, "No", their response was, "Well, next time you'll know better," and, depending on the exact circumstances, the owners were issued a citation.
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Old 10-05-2017, 02:22 PM
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Sounds like a good decision to me.

Four years ago a neighbors pit bull bit me. It was a mean dog and neighbors complained to the township to make the dog owner control his dog by leash or containment.

On day while walking by the property I saw the dog approaching unleashed and alone. I stopped for Saco day the. Began to walk again. The dog charged, jumped and latched onto my left forearm. I dropped to my knees and followed my earlier training. Stop, drop, freeze the arm, look the dog in the eyes, and then punch it in the nose with all the night you can muster. Freezing makes the dog feel in control so it does not thrash about and tear your arm up. Eye contact is disconcering to the dog because it expects you to be terrified. Punching the nose inflicts pain and can get the dog to release. It also elongates the puncture wounds.

The dog did not release and I shot it with my 9mm. Itís owner came rushing out of the house berating me. A neighbor who was a nurse came out with clean towels to wrap my arm. Someone called the police who did a fast on scene evaluation. The dog owner wanted me arrested for killing his dog. The police cited him for failing to control a an aggressive by leash or confinement. He pressed charges against me. The judge made him,pay my medical expanses and fined him $100 for failure to abide by ordinances and losing control of a dangerous animal. Justice done.
I can't believe your knucklehead neighbor had the gall. I guess it's their world, we're just in it. I'm glad you came out O.K.
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Old 10-05-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by richardw View Post
Sounds like a good decision to me.

Four years ago a neighbors pit bull bit me. It was a mean dog and neighbors complained to the township to make the dog owner control his dog by leash or containment.

On day while walking by the property I saw the dog approaching unleashed and alone. I stopped for Saco day the. Began to walk again. The dog charged, jumped and latched onto my left forearm. I dropped to my knees and followed my earlier training. Stop, drop, freeze the arm, look the dog in the eyes, and then punch it in the nose with all the night you can muster. Freezing makes the dog feel in control so it does not thrash about and tear your arm up. Eye contact is disconcering to the dog because it expects you to be terrified. Punching the nose inflicts pain and can get the dog to release. It also elongates the puncture wounds.

The dog did not release and I shot it with my 9mm. It’s owner came rushing out of the house berating me. A neighbor who was a nurse came out with clean towels to wrap my arm. Someone called the police who did a fast on scene evaluation. The dog owner wanted me arrested for killing his dog. The police cited him for failing to control a an aggressive by leash or confinement. He pressed charges against me. The judge made him,pay my medical expanses and fined him $100 for failure to abide by ordinances and losing control of a dangerous animal. Justice done.
I love dogs, and it's always sad to hear whenever somebody shoots one.

However, it's usually not the dog's fault, it's the owners. The dog needs to be controlled if not overly friendly or harmless. Even more important, it's the owner who is usually responsible for the dog's temperament too.

So all because of bad owners, the dogs end up suffering. They are animals and will behave like animals if not properly trained/maintained, and even sometimes if they are.

I would put down a dog if it attacked me or my dogs, but I would have to be almost certain of fatal damage being done. If I could avoid shooting, I would. Like if it was a little ankle biter dog that was mean but in reality not capable of inflicting life threatening damage, I think I would refrain. Or the same thing but biting or "attacking" my dog, I would refrain. My beagle won't be hurt by a pom. Which actually just happened yesterday while walking my beags, a little yappy came up and was getting nippy with him. I just shooed it off but the owner was there quickly to grab him too.

What I worry about are the folks who overreact to dogs, for whatever reason they have.

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Old 10-05-2017, 03:26 PM
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Over the years I have been bitten 8 times and had to have rabies shots twice. Every one of these dogs "Never bit anyone before!" All of them were below 50 pounds. I did maintenance and AC repair mostly on rental properties.

I would arrive and tell the people that the dog/dogs had to be kept confined for me to work there. I had people refuse, I had people turn the dogs loose on me, and most people cooperated. But idiot owners are the bigger problem than any dog (even vicious ones!)

BTW, in Ohio and many other states, YOU are responsible for any damage done by your pets, livestock, or service animals! When you dog pees on the neighbors A/C, and the urine eats the aluminum cooling fins, you are responsible for repair or replacement (figure about 2 grand average!) When your dog chases the neighbors livestock even without attacking them, you are responsible if they are damaged, by running into fences, or posts or worse if they die from heart failure!

My brother raises several types of horses, including miniatures. A neighbors pair of boxers were trying to get to the horses, and the owner recovered them before they got in that pasture. My brother told him he kept a loaded rifle to shoot dogs before they got the horses, but he couldn't guarantee he could be in time. The dog's owner was incredulous that his valuable boxers would be shot! My brother explained that that less than 3 foot tall stallion was worth about $45,000 plus 10-15 grand a year in stud fees and any vet bills, would be at the neighbors expense! He then wanted to know if my brother might need a second rifle!

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Old 10-05-2017, 04:12 PM
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We do have a leash law, but, in our county, it can mean jail time if you shoot a dog.

I am in a rural area,, no suburb here,, DO NOT shoot a dog, period.
I am not a dog lover, actually I have MANY strays that roam my land.
It used to be OK to shoot them, not anymore,,
kill a dog, it can result in jail time,,, I forget now, it may be a felony to shoot a dog.

One neighbor shot another neighbors dog, prior to this no shoot law.
The shooter had to pay vet bills, court costs.
This was not a civil suit, but, a suit brought by the county.
The dog's owner was almost not involved, except to produce vet bills.
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Old 10-05-2017, 04:30 PM
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We do have a leash law, but, in our county, it can mean jail time if you shoot a dog.

I am in a rural area,, no suburb here,, DO NOT shoot a dog, period.
I am not a dog lover, actually I have MANY strays that roam my land.
It used to be OK to shoot them, not anymore,,
kill a dog, it can result in jail time,,, I forget now, it may be a felony to shoot a dog.

One neighbor shot another neighbors dog, prior to this no shoot law.
The shooter had to pay vet bills, court costs.
This was not a civil suit, but, a suit brought by the county.
The dog's owner was almost not involved, except to produce vet bills.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I'd like to know the circumstances surrounding the county lawsuit.

I could understand the suit, if the shooter wasn't protecting himself or his property. Did he shoot into someone else's property?
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Old 10-05-2017, 04:42 PM
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Sounds like a good decision to me.

Four years ago a neighbors pit bull bit me. It was a mean dog and neighbors complained to the township to make the dog owner control his dog by leash or containment.

On day while walking by the property I saw the dog approaching unleashed and alone. I stopped for Saco day the. Began to walk again. The dog charged, jumped and latched onto my left forearm. I dropped to my knees and followed my earlier training. Stop, drop, freeze the arm, look the dog in the eyes, and then punch it in the nose with all the night you can muster. Freezing makes the dog feel in control so it does not thrash about and tear your arm up. Eye contact is disconcering to the dog because it expects you to be terrified. Punching the nose inflicts pain and can get the dog to release. It also elongates the puncture wounds.

The dog did not release and I shot it with my 9mm. Itís owner came rushing out of the house berating me. A neighbor who was a nurse came out with clean towels to wrap my arm. Someone called the police who did a fast on scene evaluation. The dog owner wanted me arrested for killing his dog. The police cited him for failing to control a an aggressive by leash or confinement. He pressed charges against me. The judge made him,pay my medical expanses and fined him $100 for failure to abide by ordinances and losing control of a dangerous animal. Justice done.
I don't understand people like this. What is their mental block about leashes and fences? How hard is it to have a breed appropriate leash? If you feel that the dog should walk around freely and get exercise then have a breed appropriate fence! Why is that hard to comprehend? I LOVE dogs! I have one, I can't see my life without a dog in it, but that doesn't mean he likes every single person there is (although this dog is afraid of grass growing!). Still, outside he's on a leash no matter what because I don't have a fence.

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Old 10-05-2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardw View Post
Sounds like a good decision to me.

Four years ago a neighbors pit bull bit me. It was a mean dog and neighbors complained to the township to make the dog owner control his dog by leash or containment.

On day while walking by the property I saw the dog approaching unleashed and alone. I stopped for Saco day the. Began to walk again. The dog charged, jumped and latched onto my left forearm. I dropped to my knees and followed my earlier training. Stop, drop, freeze the arm, look the dog in the eyes, and then punch it in the nose with all the night you can muster. Freezing makes the dog feel in control so it does not thrash about and tear your arm up. Eye contact is disconcering to the dog because it expects you to be terrified. Punching the nose inflicts pain and can get the dog to release. It also elongates the puncture wounds.

The dog did not release and I shot it with my 9mm. Itís owner came rushing out of the house berating me. A neighbor who was a nurse came out with clean towels to wrap my arm. Someone called the police who did a fast on scene evaluation. The dog owner wanted me arrested for killing his dog. The police cited him for failing to control a an aggressive by leash or confinement. He pressed charges against me. The judge made him,pay my medical expanses and fined him $100 for failure to abide by ordinances and losing control of a dangerous animal. Justice done.
I learnt long ago by accident that if you push back towards the dog with the trapped limbbefore punching the dog on the nose it releases pressure and does not cause as much tearing damage.

Interestingly in a weapons retention excesses a few weeks ago we were taught the same technique if someone tries to grab you gun, push towards them then twist the gun to break their grip before stepping back and engaging.
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by richardw View Post
Sounds like a good decision to me.

Four years ago a neighbors pit bull bit me. It was a mean dog and neighbors complained to the township to make the dog owner control his dog by leash or containment.

On day while walking by the property I saw the dog approaching unleashed and alone. I stopped for Saco day the. Began to walk again. The dog charged, jumped and latched onto my left forearm. I dropped to my knees and followed my earlier training. Stop, drop, freeze the arm, look the dog in the eyes, and then punch it in the nose with all the night you can muster. Freezing makes the dog feel in control so it does not thrash about and tear your arm up. Eye contact is disconcering to the dog because it expects you to be terrified. Punching the nose inflicts pain and can get the dog to release. It also elongates the puncture wounds.

The dog did not release and I shot it with my 9mm. Itís owner came rushing out of the house berating me. A neighbor who was a nurse came out with clean towels to wrap my arm. Someone called the police who did a fast on scene evaluation. The dog owner wanted me arrested for killing his dog. The police cited him for failing to control a an aggressive by leash or confinement. He pressed charges against me. The judge made him,pay my medical expanses and fined him $100 for failure to abide by ordinances and losing control of a dangerous animal. Justice done.
I totally enjoyed this post and hit the like button for it, but it seems like my intentional effort to quote the entire message as seemingly a half dozen posters before me have (and posters after me will also) is the most absurd and obvious way to point out the latge scale misuse of the easy quote feature. An effort for which I may also get dinged. But in true American fashion, this is a peaceful protest.

I am also glad that you recovered and I admire your calm under extreme pressure!
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:32 PM
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I can't believe your knucklehead neighbor had the gall. I guess it's their world, we're just in it. I'm glad you came out O.K.
Indeed I live right next to some way whorse it seemes
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:34 PM
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I totally enjoyed this post ... obvious way to point out the large scale misuse of the easy quote feature.
Thank-you Sevens! I have been waiting for someone to have the nerve (not me!) to point this out. Even worse is when people repeatedly quote a post with more than a couple of pictures! It's easy to quote just a small section. All of that said - this is another great thread - and it ties into my comments on the less than lethal thread. An encounter, such as richardw had, is my biggest fear when walking in the evenings where I live... About to gin up some .38 less-than-lethal rounds using Speer shot capsules.

I must add something I find humorous: when you are typing a response into the Quick Reply box - please note that little red-squiggly under the word you just typed means that word failed the dictionary/spelling check - and you might want to check it for a spelling error. I'm OCD about spelling errors and it makes posts more difficult to comprehend...

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Old 10-05-2017, 07:29 PM
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I also, unfortunately had to shoot a dog. I was armed security at an apartment complex. One late evening a 140# German Shepherd snuck up behind me and bit me just below the belt line. His upper teeth went into my gun belt and his lower teeth went into my butt. He gave zero warning. No growling or barking before he attached. The next thing I knew we were facing each other.

People talk about what happens when you have to shoot in self defense. I actually experienced it! I don't Remember drawing my Glock 17 and barely remember the gun going off. Some will say the following is excessive, I shot him until he fell. A friend heard the gun fire and said he heard pop, pop pop, pop pop, pop. Yes, I shot him 6 times with 124 gr Federal Hydroshocks. First 2 went into his lower jaw and upper chest and the next 4 went into his side. I didn't know how many times I fired until the police came and investigated. They found six cases on the ground. There was a big row over it. Owner was mad, owners friends were mad, I was in the newspaper and Rush Limbaugh even mentioned it on his show. I was cleared of any wrong doing. I learned right then and there that I DON'T EVER want to be in a DGU involving a human being. It was mentally stressful enough shooting a dog.

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Old 10-05-2017, 08:20 PM
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I also, unfortunately had to shoot a dog. I was armed security at an apartment complex. One late evening a 140# German Shepherd snuck up behind me and bit me just below the belt line. His upper teeth went into my gun belt and his lower teeth went into my butt. He gave zero warning. No growling or barking before he attached. The next thing I knew we were facing each other.

People talk about what happens when you have to shoot in self defense. I actually experienced it! I don't Remember drawing my Glock 17 and barely remember the gun going off. Some will say the following is excessive, I shot him until he fell. A friend heard the gun fire and said he heard pop, pop pop, pop pop, pop. Yes, I shot him 6 times with 124 gr Federal Hydroshocks. First 2 went into his lower jaw and upper chest and the next 4 went into his side. I didn't know how many times I fired until the police came and investigated. They found six cases on the ground. There was a big row over it. Owner was mad, owners friends were mad, I was in the newspaper and Rush Limbaugh even mentioned it on his show. I was cleared of any wrong doing. I learned right then and there that I DON'T EVER want to be in a DGU involving a human being. It was mentally stressful enough shooting a dog.

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Wow, glad you came out of it O.K.! Were the owners cited?
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:16 PM
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Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I'd like to know the circumstances surrounding the county lawsuit.

I could understand the suit, if the shooter wasn't protecting himself or his property. Did he shoot into someone else's property?
The dog was a Great Dane, walking on the shooters property.
the dog was 200+ feet away from the shooters house.
The dog was shot with a shotgun.

The shooter was not happy,, but, times were 'achainging!!
This was an "interim" case, the shooter did not walk, the shooter did not go to jail.

Today, the same offense,, would get serious jail time.
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
...I must add something I find humorous: when you are typing a response into the Quick Reply box - please note that little red-squiggly under the word you just typed means that word failed the dictionary/spelling check - and you might want to check it for a spelling error. I'm OCD about spelling errors and it makes posts more difficult to comprehend...
...and just to add a BTW, if you right click on the mis-spelled word with the squiggly red underline it will pop up a menu that lists some suggestions for possible correct spellings.
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Old 10-06-2017, 01:28 AM
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I have seen my dogs bite thick bones in pieces with ease. I think people that think you shouldn't shoot an attacking dog are stupid. Yeah let's be humane and let the dog splinter my bones or get me by the neck and snap my neck. People can be so thoughtless and stupid.

If I am walking down the street walking my dog and your dog comes onto the street and attacks me or my dog then you better expect I am going to protect myself and my dog. If that means shooting your dog then you better believe that's what I am going to do.
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:12 AM
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I have seen my dogs bite thick bones in pieces with ease. I think people that think you shouldn't shoot an attacking dog are stupid. Yeah let's be humane and let the dog splinter my bones or get me by the neck and snap my neck. People can be so thoughtless and stupid.

If I am walking down the street walking my dog and your dog comes onto the street and attacks me or my dog then you better expect I am going to protect myself and my dog. If that means shooting your dog then you better believe that's what I am going to do.
The shooter in this case originally had his dog off leash. The two other dogs were too large for their owners to control.

So, the case didn't appear to be clear who was in the right. In the end, the judge decided all of them were wrong. I haven't heard of any charges against the shooter for discharging his gun inside city limits.
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:41 PM
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Great, now we have quote Nazis.
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:47 PM
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I guess I am surprised that the gun owner wasn't cited for discharging a firearm (multiple times) with the city limits when he wasn't defending himself, but merely trying to scare off the dogs.
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:55 PM
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Great, now we have quote Nazis.
I think SWF exists, in part, kind sir for folks to be able to make comments. Several of us have commented about the repeated quoting, of long comments and/or photos, which reduce the number of posts on any given web page.

So ... now ... you want to restrict people's ability to comment here by referring to comments, and commenters, you don't like, or agree with, as "Nazi's"??

There's a certain political party whose members have been acting just like you - they're all for freedom of speech, as long you as you agree with them. If you don't agree with them, then you are called a racist and other derogatory terms. Just sayin'

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Old 10-06-2017, 03:07 PM
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I guess I am surprised that the gun owner wasn't cited for discharging a firearm (multiple times) with the city limits when he wasn't defending himself, but merely trying to scare off the dogs.
He should have been. But since Logan seems to have a bunch of stupid laws on the books, maybe firing a gun inside the city limits isn't against the law, who knows.

But of course, he could always whine to the court that he was "in fear for his life".
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Old 10-06-2017, 03:20 PM
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Not when he wasn't trying (admitted) to cause the dogs or people any harm
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Old 10-06-2017, 03:30 PM
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Watchdog - In a roundabout way, he stated he feared for his safety.

We do seem to have a few stringent laws here. One in particular- we can't metal detecting in city parks, chaps my hide. I suppose it was in response to inconsiderate people leaving holes all over the place...but I digress.

I do believe it's against city ordinance to discharge a fire within city limits. Living on the edge of town though I hear numerous shots. It's hunting season for fowl, deer and elk. Where the infraction occurred it's also on the edge of town, on the other side.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:27 PM
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I am up at 4:15 every morning to get my morning steps in. Also take the dog (a 23 lbs. Cocker mix) for a 2 mile walk when I get home from work. In my area at least 1/2 of the dogs are pitts or rots and one of the primary reasons that I carry is due to concerns about aggressive dogs. BTW I consider any dog owner who leaves their dog tied out of fenced in nearly all day and evening to be abusive owners. Because it will ALWAYS result in a poorly socialized animal that is both aggressive AND very territorial. Currently on one route I like to use there is a 120-140 lbs Akitta mix that is almost to the point of getting over the fence and the local PD has talked to the owners on multiple occasions, with only a very sporadic attempt at compliance for a few days. Mainly I avoid that route but do occasionally go past that house to check to see if that animal is still present and when I do I make sure to pack my 1911 Commander with a full load of Gold Dots and a spare Magazine. I also cross the street to gain a bit more reaction time and distance. Good news I haven't seen that white fluffy beast for over 3 weeks, so perhaps the PD finally got grounds to have the dog seized or put down.

Point is that if an aggressive dog ever comes at me I plan on killing it. If the owner gets upset I have an excellent "cold stare" and I will use that and tell the owner that the dogs death was all due to his abusing the dog.
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:33 PM
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I guess I am surprised that the gun owner wasn't cited for discharging a firearm (multiple times) with the city limits when he wasn't defending himself, but merely trying to scare off the dogs.
That's the crux of it. To me, it's a binary condition--you're either in grave danger and need to use lethal force, or the danger isn't really that imminent so you (illegally, unjustifiably, unsafely) fire warning shots.

The big thing is, he says he was just trying to scare the dogs off, but he still managed to hit one of them. Good shootin', Tex.

I can see their line of thinking, though: that he was in a situation where lethal force was justified, and they simply didn't use his own testimony against him. Which, ultimately, is laudable. I would rather have the courts act on that principle than try to prosecute unnecessarily.

All the other points are irrelevant. He was dumb to have his dog off-leash to start, but that doesn't invalidate his right to self-defense.
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Old 10-06-2017, 07:58 PM
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I think SWF exists, in part, kind sir for folks to be able to make comments. Several of us have commented about the repeated quoting, of long comments and/or photos, which reduce the number of posts on any given web page.

So ... now ... you want to restrict people's ability to comment here by referring to comments, and commenters, you don't like, or agree with, as "Nazi's"??

There's a certain political party whose members have been acting just like you - they're all for freedom of speech, as long you as you agree with them. If you don't agree with them, then you are called a racist and other derogatory terms. Just sayin'
On the contrary, that more describes you in regards to my clearly tongue-in-cheek comment. If someone wishes to (or doesn't know how to otherwise) quote an entire post, I really don't care. But I don't gripe about it as some may. Stay out of the heat.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:57 PM
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I guess I am surprised that the gun owner wasn't cited for discharging a firearm (multiple times) with the city limits when he wasn't defending himself, but merely trying to scare off the dogs.
He was defending his animal. Unless there is some state that has a crazy law, you are always legal when defending yourself, family or livestock. Pets are livestock.

Apparently VA is a state I'll not be visiting. If a dog is a threat to me, my family or my dog (also family) I'm going to shoot it. I will hate the necessity, but it would be out of necessity. I'm not infirm, but I can't beat a large dog.
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:18 PM
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I have to admit, I'm a little surprised at the result. I can't fault the judge and am heartened that the focus was where it should have been.

It's one of the reasons I love my adopted state...compared to California:

Dog owners cited after September incident ending in pet shooting | The Herald Journal | news.hjnews.com
So what state did this occur in??
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:47 PM
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He was defending his animal. Unless there is some state that has a crazy law, you are always legal when defending yourself, family or livestock. Pets are livestock.
Not in FL. They are property--not family members as some feel--and deadly force to protect a pet is not allowed, except possibly if you had it on a leash "in hand."
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:54 PM
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So what state did this occur in??
My town is Logan, in Utah.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:52 AM
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He was defending his animal. Unless there is some state that has a crazy law, you are always legal when defending yourself, family or livestock. Pets are livestock.
Many states limit deadly force to humans-only in such a case (in a public park, not out on the farm shooting coyotes). There are, however caveats:

(1) Proximity -- If a dog or human attacks your dog, attached to you via a 6' leash, a reasonable person would conclude that the aggressor is not suddenly going to become gentle and charitable once it finishes killing your pet: you're next on the menu. Of course reasonable exceptions exist: you might have a tough time explaining why you shot a Chihuahua.

(2) Jury Nullification -- The law is written at the state level, but a rural jury might (and has, on occasion) decided otherwise. For instance, a state may allow lethal force to prevent arson against an occupied dwelling, but a rural jury might decide that a barn full of horses qualifies. Personally, though, I feel deadly force to prevent arson should be considered justified regardless of the structure involved, since it places responding firefighters, police, and EMTs in danger.

Most places have a lower standard for defense against animals, but I think the shooter in question should be held to the higher standard (deadly force), seeing as how a reasonable person could conclude that firing a pistol in a public park could injure a bystander.

In either case, though, the conclusion is the same.
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Old 10-07-2017, 03:38 PM
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As far as I can tell from the article linked in the OP, that is not a judicial decision or anything to do with a court. It was simply the issuance of a citation to each of the dolts involved. Warning shots are so rarely a good idea that it makes me scream internally every time I see a reference to them. If the shooter had pulled his head out of his sphincter and realized he needed to shoot the attacking dogs, he would have wasted ammo that he really needed, and outbound bullets are addressed "to whom they may concern" - you are responsible for them. Stupid.

The Roanoke case appears to have been a matter of a shooting that was not justified. Dogs on your property, 200 feet away without a much better of a specific threat to livestock or people are not in need of shooting. That would have been a felony here. That said, the day I need to use force on someone or some dog or whatever, it will be used. I live in a courtroom and know the law, and I am not scared of BS threats of litigation by people who have no idea what they are doing. A vigorous drubbing with CR11B sanctions and Bar complaint will be applied with ruthless aggression if they can even find a lawyer dumb enough.
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Old 10-07-2017, 05:38 PM
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Default No, no, please - Don't hold back...

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As far as I can tell from the article linked in the OP, that is not a judicial decision or anything to do with a court. It was simply the issuance of a citation to each of the dolts involved. Warning shots are so rarely a good idea that it makes me scream internally every time I see a reference to them. If the shooter had pulled his head out of his sphincter and realized he needed to shoot the attacking dogs, he would have wasted ammo that he really needed, and outbound bullets are addressed "to whom they may concern" - you are responsible for them. Stupid.

The Roanoke case appears to have been a matter of a shooting that was not justified. Dogs on your property, 200 feet away without a much better of a specific threat to livestock or people are not in need of shooting. That would have been a felony here. That said, the day I need to use force on someone or some dog or whatever, it will be used. I live in a courtroom and know the law, and I am not scared of BS threats of litigation by people who have no idea what they are doing. A vigorous drubbing with CR11B sanctions and Bar complaint will be applied with ruthless aggression if they can even find a lawyer dumb enough.
IIRC The case was referred to the Prosecutor's Office. I guess this was the result.
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Old 10-07-2017, 05:50 PM
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This isn't a 'verdict': just a charge.

Cases aren't over yet: prosecutors can add other charges.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:37 AM
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I did hold back. I am not interested in seeing how many *** I can get on a page, or points and moderator hatemail I can accumulate.

My normal expressions of distaste for stupid people are somewhere between R. Lee Ermey and Vlad Tepes. I've spent most of my life in LE and criminal prosecution, a circumstance that is not conducive to patience, an affection for the human race or tolerance of boneheads.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:43 AM
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He was defending his animal. Unless there is some state that has a crazy law, you are always legal when defending yourself, family or livestock. Pets are livestock.

Apparently VA is a state I'll not be visiting. If a dog is a threat to me, my family or my dog (also family) I'm going to shoot it. I will hate the necessity, but it would be out of necessity. I'm not infirm, but I can't beat a large dog.
I don't know of any state that allows you to use deadly force to protect property when you're not yourself in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury. I also don't know of any state that defines pets as anything but property. If California has a different law, please school me. I'm sure you cover this issue in the classes you teach . . .
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:20 PM
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Default I have to admit, I was a little surprised

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I did hold back. I am not interested in seeing how many *** I can get on a page, or points and moderator hatemail I can accumulate.

My normal expressions of distaste for stupid people are somewhere between R. Lee Ermey and Vlad Tepes. I've spent most of my life in LE and criminal prosecution, a circumstance that is not conducive to patience, an affection for the human race or tolerance of boneheads.
I thought for sure, this guy was going to lose his conceal-carry permit. It was not mentioned, in this article.

The tone of the piece, at least to me, had an air of finality. If there's anything else, I'll be certain to add it to this thread.
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Old 10-08-2017, 01:45 PM
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BTW, Muss, I suspect that most states will have a very different analysis on the use of a lethal means of defending your animal from another animal than would be the standard for using it to defend your animal from a human. Certainly on this side of the state it would not get a second thought. I would not trust the system in the I5 corridor to be as objective; they are weird and do weird things.
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Old 10-08-2017, 02:09 PM
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BTW, Muss, I suspect that most states will have a very different analysis on the use of a lethal means of defending your animal from another animal than would be the standard for using it to defend your animal from a human.
That is certainly possible, although I would expect other issues, like negligent discharge of a firearm, to come into play in the former . . .
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Old 10-08-2017, 04:08 PM
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Not in FL. They are property--not family members as some feel--and deadly force to protect a pet is not allowed, except possibly if you had it on a leash "in hand."
Interesting. They are not simple property here.

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I don't know of any state that allows you to use deadly force to protect property when you're not yourself in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury.
I haven't researched the law in Texas, but I'm told that in Texas you may defend your property with deadly force.

Neither have I researched the law in CA about this particular subject, but I was told by a deputy sheriff and the animal control division that it is legal to protect your pet from a deadly threat with deadly force.

More to follow...
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:56 PM
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. . . It was a mean dog and neighbors complained to the township to make the dog owner control his dog by leash or containment. . . .

The dog did not release and I shot it with my 9mm. Itís owner came rushing out of the house berating me. . . . The judge made him,pay my medical expanses and fined him $100 for failure to abide by ordinances and losing control of a dangerous animal. Justice done.
That's one opinion. Another is that the owner should have been punished much more severely.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:56 PM
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That's why I posted this article. It didn't occur to me that the case wasn't finished.

As a point though, the shooter did claim he feared for his safety.
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:36 PM
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Default Even if you are careful....

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We do have a leash law, but, in our county, it can mean jail time if you shoot a dog.

I am in a rural area,, no suburb here,, DO NOT shoot a dog, period.
I am not a dog lover, actually I have MANY strays that roam my land.
It used to be OK to shoot them, not anymore,,
kill a dog, it can result in jail time,,, I forget now, it may be a felony to shoot a dog.

One neighbor shot another neighbors dog, prior to this no shoot law.
The shooter had to pay vet bills, court costs.
This was not a civil suit, but, a suit brought by the county.
The dog's owner was almost not involved, except to produce vet bills.
Even if you are careful a dog can escape and sniff up and down the street. If there free reign to shoot dogs someone could shoot someones pet for just being in their yard. Sure, it's you responsibility, so have animal control fine you. Not shoot your dog.
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Old 10-10-2017, 12:27 PM
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Default Maybe, you guys were correct?

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This isn't a 'verdict': just a charge.

Cases aren't over yet: prosecutors can add other charges.
I just saw two of the three people on our county "Unofficial Arrest and Booking" web page.

Not being familiar with the process, I'm uncertain whether this is customary. I have seen booking photos of folks who didn't have insurance. It just seems a bit much. I certainly don't condone their behavior though.

The charge for both is "Dog in a restricted area". No bail is set. I kind of doubt they're in jail but who knows!
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:14 PM
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No bail set because these folks weren't arrested, they aren't in custody and never have been.

They've been issued a summons (order) to appear in court on a date certain: like a traffic ticket.
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:37 PM
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No bail set because these folks weren't arrested, they aren't in custody and never have been.

They've been issued a summons (order) to appear in court on a date certain: like a traffic ticket.
I'm surprised they had to show up for a booking photo.
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:36 PM
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I just see this going a whole different way in CA if it was me. First new's report would be "GUN USED IN SHOOTING AT FAMILY PARK"
Then it would go on to say, were not certain where the gunman got his weapon but they found thousands of rounds and 70 guns in his home not 2 miles from an Elementary school...........And so on. I would loose everything.
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