On another note, since this is the "Concealed Carry & Self Defense" Forum, and I am not being sarcastic.......

There is no magic. If someone points a firearm at you from afar you are clearly in grave threat of death or grievous bodily harm. The problem is not the distance - it is the probability. The law requires your use of a firearm for self defense to be justified and, in the normal course of human events, you are unlikely to be justified if you take a 75 foot shot, or even a 50 foot shot, EXCEPT AND UNLESS someone is literally pointing a firearm at you from that kind of distance. A rifle, particularly, not a handgun. As this type of event is so amazingly rare it is just a mere discussion point for the average American citizen who carries a gun every day. That threat doesn't happen under ordinary circumstances (Hollywood not included) because nobody gets mugged/robbed/raped/beaten from a distance of 75 feet.

Not counting the recent Las Vegas tragedy, the Texas Tower of the '60s, and the Dallas parking lot event of last year, the only times that I can think of where a modern American gunfight took place at any significant distance involves certain police standoffs and, perhaps, certain recent terror attacks. So we, as average, gun carrying citizens, will virtually never be justified in taking a 25 yard shot at a human.

The foregoing does not include someone running at you for the purpose of a deliberate attack. Although rare it is a more likely scenario. But you will be shooting at the attacker at a closer distance unless the attack started across a football field of something, which is a completely weird and imaginative event.

Only if he is a clear target and there are no students between you both. A clear target matters a great deal. It doesn't happen that way.

If I heard the news reports correctly he pulled the fire alarm to get the students into the halls with him..... IIRC more than a 1000 students at the school........

I have my doubts that after he fired his first rounds ....the situation/chaos would be such that a 30yd/90ft clear shot would not present itself........ the only "safe" shot might be at contact distance.........

Edit; I was just at my youngest's High School this morning for his Junior year College meeting........ when the bell rang for change of class, it was......chaos.....700 kids and teachers going every which way... I doubt I could have made a 20 ft shot across the hall..........

Regarding those that believe that moderate distance shooting has no place in SD and do not practice farther than 10 yards, etc., I'd like you to consider all the active shooter situations that are occurring as of late. I live in a very safe and relatively violent crime free area. I worry more about "the nuts" than the typical violent crime. I do not wish to limit myself.

Just food for thought.

While IAHunter's concern with respect to active shooters in today's real world is well placed there are still two problems, the first having already been discussed above, to wit, a clear 30 yard shot in a hallway full of school kids, doctors, nurses, accountants, whomever is not something any of us can expect to encounter. If you are unfortunate enough to be in an active shooter situation AND you have decided to do something about it then you are going to have to "go to the gunfire". At some point you might be able to scream out "GET DOWN" and maybe everyone complies except the shooter but we are talking about an extremely unlikely scenario. If you can get to the shooter, well, more power to you. But getting that clear, long shot is unlikely in the extreme.

The other problem we all have is our concealed carry weapons. Practicing with them at 25 or more yards tells us how inadequate most of them are absent very careful sight picture, proper breathing, perfect trigger control, etc. If you can put that together with the adrenaline pumping and an active shooter 30 yards from you down a hallway then you're likely an "operator" with all the experience that that entails. For the rest of us, taking the time to carefully aim a small handgun using all of the techniques we all know while the shooter is fixing to shoot at you and your heart is racing, well.........you get the picture.

There's not a school in the country, much less in existence, with a 30 yard unobstructed hallway . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

For myself, I practice at 0-15 yards. I can't think of a real life scenario that I would be shooting over 45 feet away. If I had more distance than that, I would be running for cover. I don't want "target accuracy" from a carry gun. I see no use in shooting something in self defense with all the bullet going into basically one ragged hole. I want a spread of shots to be able to have a better chance of hitting something vital. I figure if I can hit a 10" paper plate at 0-15 yards, that is all I need.

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Have Canon, Will Travel

Unless you're talking about people as obstructions, this is a very strange claim. You must have gone to some really small schools. The elementary, jr high and high schools I went to all had hallways longer than 30 yards. As an example, here is a satellite picture of my elementary school:



I've put a measuring line from the east door to the west door where the "new" section is attached. It's a straight shot through a hallway that is at least 15' wide. As you can see it's 177' (59 yards) long. Actually, the hallway continues all the way through the new section on the right, but there is an elevation change so, you couldn't shoot from one door completely through the building. That's not quite double what you said doesn't exist. This is the smallest of the three schools I mentioned.

That said, I don't think a self-defense shot of 25 yards or more is very likely.

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Freedom isn't free.

This is absurd.

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that the attacker is armed with a handgun, and you've no route to escape or cover. Precisely what probability no longer qualifies as a threat? 10% chance of any hit? 5%? Any number of shots, taken however poorly at my personal body, is too damn many, and warrants taking whatever action is most likely to result in me not being shot. Escape being preferable, cover and return fire, in that order, if the first isn't an option.

Of course, I was also referring to non-firearm-totin' miscreants. If escape isn't possible, how much of a head start do you deem necessary to start gambling one's life on a foot race? How close do you have to let your attacker approach before you deem the knife-vs-gun fight to be fair enough?

We already had a whole thing over this. It got resolved by John Tueller, and now folks have taken to arguing that 7-10 yards is the new maximum.

I don't think that armed self-defense is particularly likely, either, but here we are. *shrugs*

I practice it because I can with my pistol of choice. If I couldn't shoot that far, I suppose I wouldn't bother.

Having done active shooter drills with "live ammo" (sims) in real school buildings.....It SUCKS! Great training/experience etc, but everything you just said is so correct. Heart racing, out of breath having just run up a flight or two of stairs, screaming "victims"..... and now you're receiving fire. Accuracy goes to ****...it's certainly not spray and pray, but sure seems that way when you compare your accuracy against the paper target range!!!!!

When I started introducing some stress to my sons at the range, they looked at me like I was a cuckoo. Until they did 20 push ups and sprinted 25yds then tried to shoot with the same accuracy they just had but at rest...... eye opener.

Have to agree with Rastoff....... our HS is one story and laid out with 6-8 long hallways maybe 50 yds long ...... the cafeteria is a good 120x120 ft of open area.

When I was there yesterday... I couldn't help but think about the events of Wed.... at class change you really couldn't see from one end of the hall to the other........... with over 1000 bobbing and weaving teenagers trying to get to their next class..... no panic just 4 minutes to cover 100 yds or more while talking to a buddy.

I obviously didn't have a gun with me..... not even my 2.9" Benchmade.....I doubt I would have even been able to see a gunman halfway down the hall... let alone engage even with a long gun. Heck with a scope/optic one would have trouble tracking if someone was about to step in front of your muzzle/in the line of fire......

IMHO to engage you would need to get in to spitting distance and hope you got him before he got you........hope/pray to approach on his blind side... not face to face against an AR vs my normal EDC 3913!!!!!

Well, if you're both on the roof, I agree . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Empty . . .

Fastest self contradiction ever . . .

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? Hard to tell . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Yes ...... been there before and our meeting started between class changes so the halls were empty....... 40-50 yds unobstructed hallways

Contradiction...no! my observation .... when you add in the kids to the hall and you could not see from one end to the other..... couldn't really pick out an individual student beyond 15-20 yards...... in the narrower side halls.


Going back to your original post of no unobstructed 30 yd halls.... my HS....
w/out kids yes there are......
add the students and they are heavily obstructed.


Your Post #55........ I, and I think Rustoff: interpreted as talking about the structure of the building itself....... empty.

Clearly you both did. My point is that these incidents don't happen in a vacuum. With which I think you agree . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Ya, that's why I hate the "what would you do?" threads where someone gives you three variables ..... when in reality there are probably dozens that must be considered.

I belief the "ALICE" (?) and active shooter drills that police Dept's and Schools are conducing are opening a lot of eyes (see HDMotercops post #59).......... After Columbine (sp) the response was changed from "contain the site" to "engage the shooter asap"..

Fla.: The School was locked down......but the shooter was able to walk in as kids were beginning to leave out of back stairwells.

Guessing here: but he just walked in as a student opened a locked fire door w/ a push bar to leave the building by the shortest route to his bike, car, of home! Shooter had gone to school there and knew the students patterns and habits. Our schools have "captured vestibules" at the main entrance........ for visitor screening....... and about a half dozen other exits students use to egress the school.

But, you are probably in a lot less danger if that someone only practices, and only knows where his gun 'patterns' at 10 or 15 feet !!

I see it at the range all the time.. Folks practice at 'bad breath' distances and their groups look more like a pattern of 00 from a riot gun at 20 yards.

I'm willing to bet a guy that can shoot good groups at 25 or 30 yards has a much better chance of hitting what he wants to hit at 10 feet..

Than someone that has 'good groups' and only practices at 10 to 15 feet being able to hit what they are shooting at 25 yards..

Video surveillance of active shooters shows targets running away from the shooter, seeking cover, and crouched. The immediate area around a shooter is emptied very quickly. Those who remain are crouched low to the ground trying to make themselves as small as possible.

The shooter(s) on the other hand remain upright for better sight lines of the situation they powerfully control. Generally they walk slowly, shooting available targets or seeking additional cowering targets. They are not afraid because they are the only one with a weapon.

Without going into further obvious varying details, the shooters are usually pretty easy, unobstructed targets after the first couple of volleys. Every situation varies, of course, but in no case are herds of people obstructing your shot by running upright in the immediate vicinity of an active shooter. That’s not what instinct does.

Continuing, in the majority of incidents where a shooter meets real resistance, especially with a firearm, the killing stops. Suddenly he is not all powerful, in control. Whether hit or not, the shooter turns the gun on himself or flees, OR you killed him with multiple rounds, including headshots, as you advance.

If he attacks you, wouldn’t it be nice to have more than five rounds on board in a real fighting caliber? But at least he is advancing toward you so you would be justified when he gets to 10 yards. I agree, shooting at distance under extreme stress is hard, but shooting is the best option to end the carnage rather than running away and allowing it to continue.

In short, the most successful strategy for stopping a murdering shooter is fire from a good guy even if inaccurate. Accurate is better. If the target is obstructed, wait 10 seconds, then it won’t be. It really is quite a distraction for him to have to deal with incoming fire immediately.

I’d take an outdoor shot across a parking lot at 100 yards if I had to, of course trying to avoid any innocents directly behind the shooter. I feel confident I can hit a human sized target at that range or closer with my EDC, because there would be time (3-4 seconds) to set up and take a controlled, pro-active shot.

How to do that could be covered in another thread, but you definitely don’t have to be an “operator” to learn this skill.

CB3 good points....... goes to my many variables statement above.

In our HS...as with most I suspect.... the halls will funnel the students away from the shooter ( with some retreating into classrooms if the doors are not locked)........ so any first responder is going to have to stand against that "tide" and wait for it to flow past him/her to get any sort of clear shot.


Thinking about what I observed yesterday the 'tide" of students will get thicker as it moves away from the shooter...... will a first responder be able to force his way through that crowd....... maybe an officer in uniform will have the tides part for him....... someone in street cloths..... I suspect..... not so much.

Once that happens the variables change and a safe shot might be possible at 25-30 yds.........I've got to think; those 15 to maybe 30 seconds would seem like a eternity. Unable to "safely" take any action while a shooter empties 1 or 2 magazines into the backs of fleeing students .

One would have to act quickly as once the shooter w/ a long gun is aware of you; at 30 yds he again would have the advantage..... of a long gun most likely with an optic...........against your small handgun.

No easy fixed answers.....................

How about a picture of a long hallway, now do you believe?

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Point well made and I completely agree. I clarify that these long shots are small percentages of small percentages.

I would add that when we practice, practicing close in shots, done quickly, is more valuable than long shots which take more time. That's not to say to ignore the longer shots, just spend more time on being fast and accurate close up.

Now you're just being perverse. Your comment that an unobstructed 30 yards doesn't exist is just wrong. As I stated, unless we're talking about people as the obstruction, most schools have hallways or spaces that are larger than 30 yards. And people get out of the way pretty quickly when the shooting starts.

CB3 gets it...

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Freedom isn't free.

What if it were a loved one of yours that was the hostage?...

I'll take that bet. You're ignoring the time component.

Self-defense shooting has to be a balance between speed and accuracy. The shot must be fast enough to not get shot by the bad guy, but accurate enough to hit the right places.

Small groups are great when you have a lot of time, but when you're in a hurry, a fist to a thumb and pinky spread is small enough. Any smaller and you're going too slow. Any larger and you need to slow down.

Just because someone can shoot a small group at 25 yards (claims of 50 yard groups are usually just hype anyway) doesn't mean they can shoot fast and accurate enough to deal with a bad guy at close range.

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Freedom isn't free.

See post #26......Muss Muggins point as I read your "We have a winner" post and his comment; you are describing a hostage situation/standoff ..... not an active shooter......


I believe you would face a high likelihood of criminal prosecution and civil action...... for appointing yourself "judge jury and executioner"

By the way good luck with the shot...... don't miss!!!!! With luck your target is half a head....probably no second shot 'do-over" ...miss to the right and you shoot your own family member ... miss to the left and the shooter might just react and pull the trigger on your loved one ; or might just start shooting at you.

Are you doing that shot double action or single........?????????????


Just as an aside.... IIRC most Police sniper shootings take place at 100yds or less......... with a scoped rifle off a bi-pod.

I believe the proper word is "obtuse . . . "

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Like most things in life that suffer from unequivocal declarations before the fact, that's a decision that gets made when it's time to make it . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

And you would be wrong again.

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Freedom isn't free.

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äbˈt(y)o͞os/
adjective
adjective: obtuse

1.
annoyingly insensitive . . .

per·verse
pərˈvərs/
adjective
adjective: perverse

(of a person or their actions) showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable, often in spite of the consequences.

Nah, just insensitive . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Ok, ever hear of a thing called USPSA ,, or Steel Challenge.. I've seen guys that could do head shots at 30 yards or blazing fast at 10 feet.
I also seen police qualifications where officers were shooting at a target the size of a refrigerator at 10 feet and couldn't hit it.

Most of the time when a person states they ONLY practice at 10 or 15 feet ,,, it's a waste of ammo to shoot any farther than that ,, it's not real life ,, a defense gun isn't made to shoot that far,, etc. etc. etc.
All excuses and what it really means,, they can't shoot worth a darn and can't hit **** , let alone a man size target, at 25 yards..

I saw a video where Jerry Miculek hit a target at 1000 yds with a S&W 929,,, but yea,, he probably can't shoot fast or at close range,,
No wait , I saw him do a demo one time at the S&W factory ,, 6 shots from a revolver in 1 second at a target about 10 or 15 feet ,, you could cover the group with your hand..

I RO'ed for a guy named Ken Hackathorn a couple times. You may have hear of him. Truely a fine gentleman. He was pretty fast and accurate and at any range I saw him shoot ,, 10 feet to 25 yards..

It's like saying , when I lift weights, I Only lift 25 pounds ,, because it's not realistic for someone to lift 200 pounds.. Or when I go walking I only walk 100 yards because , if I have to walk 5 miles I'll drive the car..
I only practice my shooting at 10 feet , because I'll never have to shoot any farther than that..

I've been around this game for a few years. My USPSA # is lower than Bobby Leatham's #. Although I'm not nearly as good.. I'm getting old and can't keep up with the youngin' . But I still have a B class rating in USPSA revolver.. I also have a expert rating in NRA Bullseye and NRA action Pistol.. I can't shoot nearly as good as some folks. But I do know IF you only practice at 10 feet that's NOT enough no matter how fast you go..

But you stated that you knew no one that would take that shot (HOSTAGE SITUATION) as a civilian...I'd take it,,no need to think about it,,If a shot would save a loved one ,,there is no option...Of course we are all different.

The difference in POI from POA is negligible in todays firearms and ammunition from 5 to 30 feet ..

An inch or less of difference at those distances won't matter in a SD shooting ..

not something I need to know.

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

Forty years ago when I joined the PD we qualified at 25 yards. With our carry weapons, M10s, M64s, M36s, DSs, M40s, we did it, over and over again. Not because we were from Krypton and O so much better than those who had not joined. We had training, we aimed, we were taught breath control, posture etc. Then we practiced.

Nobody should be taking shots they know they can't make. But all of my guns are capable at 30 yards.

And absent sight picture, breath control and trigger control a neophyte without training or practice isn't going to hit anything with an accursed target rifle.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Really?...What SD shooting are you talking about...?
What about a hostage situation,,,where you only have a very small kill zone showing behind the hostage?..
I know the odds of that ever happening are almost nil..But they have happened to others..
Just like the odds of needing a SD weapon is pretty low...But still I have one.

I wouldn't consider a hostage situation as a SD situation .. I can't see a non LEO taking a shot as this .. and in my 65 plus years have never heard of an instance of that happening to a conceal carry license holder ..

Can you list the instances you have heard of ??

Duly noted . . .

(I don't know you, I hope. If I do, and this should somehow happen to me, don't take the shot. I'll handle it . . . )

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Can I like this twice ?

When I was a youngin' I hunted and kept squirrels and rabbits on the dinner table with a 22 rifle. We never had a handgun around the house.
Years later I purchased a handgun and start shooting in a NRA 50 foot indoor Bullseye league . Couldn't hit the ground with my hat !
Had to learn trigger control,, breath control, natural point of aim,, follow thru,, etc. etc.
Years later I was shooting NRA Action Pistol and a guy I knew tried to talk me into going to a IPSC / USPSA match with him.. " Hell, those guys are crazy they shoot fast and can't hit ****. "

Well, I went anyway. I found out the same trigger control ,, sight picture ,, natural point of aim ,, etc. that you used in Bullseye shooting you used in USPSA shooting,,, just condensed into a much shorter time frame.

I thought NRA 50 foot Bullseye Rapid fire, 5 shots in 10 seconds was fast..
Then I went to NRA Action Pistol, the plate table is six 8" steel plates at 10 yards in 6 seconds including the draw ??
Then when you get back to 25 yards you have a Whole 9 seconds to draw and hit those six 8" steel plates..

In USPSA El Presidenta ,, with your back to 3 USPSA target , turn, draw , fire 2 shots on each target ,, reload and fire 2 shots on each target ,, and folks are doing that in 4 ,, 5 ,, 6 ,, 7 seconds.. With all A hits..

Fast is fine , but accuracy is final... Wyatt Earp



Approx. par times for El Presidente with A hits is about:
A class = 6 seconds
B class = 7.5 seconds
C class = 11.25 seconds
D class = 15 seconds.

I never said that and it's not what I was quoting from your post.

You typed a lot of stuff, but this is where it's really at. You said, "I'm willing to bet a guy that can shoot good groups at 25 or 30 yards has a much better chance of hitting what he wants to hit at 10 feet." I will agree with that if we're talking about shooting on a range, we're not. I've watched plenty of guys who could shoot very small groups at 25 yards completely miss the target (and backer) at 5 yards when under time pressure. You make my point for me with the above quote.

Of course the professional shooters are going to be good at their game. It's what they do. They're not the issue and we're not them. We fall into the second category. Anyone who carries a gun as part of their job should be at least an OK shot. We know that's not the case.

And this is really my point. There seems to be two groups in this type of discussion. There's the, "I practice at 100 yards so I'm sure I'll be good at close in" group and the, "Why waste your time at long distance or precision shooting since all self-defense shots are taken at less than 7 yards" people. The reality is that neither is an absolute.

Yes, the vast majority of self-defense is done at very close ranges. That doesn't mean the necessity of a longer shot is impossible. BUT, small groups at long distance does NOT equate to good shooting close up.

So, my recommendation for self-defense practice is to divide your practice time wisely. Spend the bulk of your time working 10 yards and closer. Start from concealment and use a timer. Then spend some time with longer shots. Personally I think 25 yards is enough, but 50 is not unreasonable to ensure you can at least hit the thoracic cavity.

Also, spend a little time with your support hand. Don't try to become an expert with your support hand, but at least be familiar with it.

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Freedom isn't free.

Interesting to have seen that some members of this little theoretical chat don’t consider live people as obstructions.
Assailant in the most recent Florida mass murder took less that ten seconds to fire every round. Hows your OODA training there, superheroes?

“In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.” – Eric Hoffer

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Halfway and one more step

Google ( hostage taker shot )..A lot of videos of police shooting the hostage taker,,,One vid shows a stranger grabbing a random child in a store..Perp was holding child on his lap,,Cop took him out with a head shot at less than 10 feet as they were talking to him...So I guess a civilian doesn't need to worry about taking that shot,,,Just make sure you carry a police officer with you everywhere you go. ..BTW-Someone messes with my family,,,and I have a chance to end the situation,,I will not wait on anyone else to show up.

Just because we can’t quickly find some reference on the inter webs to something that happened in the past does not mean it didn’t happen.

But beyond that, is it entirely unreasonable to believe that some situation could occur in the future that has not occurred (or rarely) in the past?

What’s the problem with developing training scenarios for unlikey occurrences, as long as training for more likely occurrences also occurs?

There is a great deal of overlap in the skills necessary to resolve various different training scenarios. Limiting scenarios and the concomitant training is truly limiting.

Shoot often enough and long enough and there are a lot of opportunities to become a better all around shooter. All boats rise with the tide. Anchor yourself with a short line and you might sink.

The people who make excuses for not needing a particular skill are likely incapable of accomplishing of the very thing they devalue. It's just too much for their pride to say I can't do that.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Man in the Mall didn’t hesitate,,and took down the would be mass murderer,,,8 hits out of ten on a moving target,,Distance reported to have been 40 yards, This man knows his gun.

I'd say this feller knew his sidearm....

"Austin Police Sgt. Adam Johnson fired one shot from his Smith & Wesson M&P .40 pistol and
hit Larry McQuilliams square in the chest last month, stopping the gunman's downtown shooting rampage."


Austin cop'''s sure shot stopped crazed gunman | Fox News

Holding the reins of two horses with one hand,
Austin Police Sgt. Adam Johnson raised his service pistol and fired
a bullseye into the target some 312 feet away.

///

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I go shoot with a small group every Tue evening. Mostly at 7-10 yards using index cards for targets firing from various conditions. Some times single shots, double taps, multiple targets etc. But the range has knock over steel at 15, 25 and 50yds and the 6 plate rack at 15 gets a couple passes every week, the 25 and 50 get some rounds maybe once a month.

I can manage. I wouldn't want to try a head shot at someone holding a hostage in front of them at 25 yards. Nobody in their right mind would.

The rest of the group work at getting me to shoot semis, I work at them to shoot revolvers.

As Paul Harrell points out, accuracy and POI depends on the ammo used. Most, if not all of us practice and zero with "range ammo," aka full metal jacket, but we EDC some brand of self defense ammo. Because SD ammo is pricy and hard to find these days, we seldom practice with it. Fact is, POI can be quite a bit different with one or the other. From point blank to seven yards, probably doesn't matter, further out, it could.

Well, the shooter was engaged and killed at 40 yds in the recent Indiana Mall shooting. I think it’s important to know your poa poi had farther distances. I shoot my 2” J Frame at 50&75 yds sometimes. Admittedly it’s just for fun but one thing is for certain. You just never know.

I can see the "Dicken Drill" coming.

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Some men, you just can't reach

This guy gets my vote. Just up the road from me....VERY impressive (holding TWO horses).

The mall guy did well too

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On the Oak Savannah

Sir I'm going to have to disagree with this. Mentally your assuming any threat will be up close. Your boxing yourself into a set of circumstances, based on assumptions and averages.

While MOST self defense shootings do happen at close range, your setting yourself up to fail if you're involved in a self defense shooting at longer range. Being mentally flexible and able to adjust to unexpected circumstances are critical traits to surviving a sudden attack. Basing your practice on limited circumstances also limits your mental flexibility.