If you carry a gun for self defense,,And you sight your gun in at 25 yards,,Where will your poi be at 20 feet?..

center of mass......... w/ a double or triple tap........ fast as I can pull the trigger..........

I don't fire my CCW guns at targets yards down range.
Waste of ammo.

Now 0-15 feet I know exactly where my POI will be.

Well, I can generally bounce a Coke can at anywhere from 3 feet to out beyond 25 yards with all my carry guns, so I reckon I know them pretty well.

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Pisgah

Dead On,

Gees


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Well, I thought I knew my gun, but, lately, I've been wondering if I do.

For example, my gun told me that he didn't drink. But just the other day, I caught him drinking vodka. Then, when I asked him where he got the booze, he told me "from Bill, the next-door neighbor." That's a lie, because Bill only drinks soda pop. So, I'm starting to wonder just how well I know my gun...


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Agreed.

Also in the center mass group.

I'd say dead on as well.

But, I like to shoot small stuff like shotgun hulls at an informal range I use at times. I'd say my wheel guns that are sighted dead on at 25 yards impact just little low at closer ranges since the bore is below the sights. Not enough to worry over in an SD situation.

If I am trying to take a rattlesnakes head off at 4-5yards, I need to hold on the top edge of his head or I shoot under him. They get pretty mad when you miss and shoot near them, but if you hold on the top edge they usually don't have a head after the shot. ; )

On a 10"-18" splatter target at 20 feet my point of aim is a bit higher at the base of the neck with my 640-1 Pro Series. Using 125gr Critical Defense with the neck point of aim my shots all went into the 10 ring last weekend.

We used to be pretty close, but lately we've been drifting apart. It's sad, really.

Me and my carry gun are close, but it gets a bit jealous when I take out one of the other guns out for some range time.

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Carpriver.

^^ Yes, that will happen. :-)

Not everyone has adjustable sights on their carry piece, and even if they do, they won't go out and adjust them to 25 yards. But if you ask the question the other way around, they might go out and have some fun at 25 yards.

None of my CCW guns is sighted in at 25 yards.

Factory are usually on between 10 and 15 yards, averaging about 12. From 7-15 yards, slow aimed fire, I’ll be within +/- 1”.

At 25 yards I will hit about 3” low. At 50 yards, 5-6” low. 10” at 100 yards.

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!,,,You sir would be the one who could put a hole in the eye of a hostage taker in the local super market ,,at a resturant or even at home..While others would be as likely to hit the hostage as they would the hostage taker!...

Shooting well at the gun club indicates absolutely nothing as to how one might do in a life-and-death situation.

Okay, seriously, what exactly is this, and what's it doing in my CC&SD?

Most people with 9mms shoot 115's in practice and shoot a heavier load for carry. So they have no idea where the gun impacts in the real world at whatever distance. Those folks that carry a .38(125/158), .40(165/180), or .45(230) might luck into their practice round and carry load being the same weight.

You are asking a question that someone who puts 500 rounds a year or more through their carry gun might figure out depending on the difficulty of their practice routine. It's been my experience that people practice at single digit yardage and use the majority of the large target. It's easier for me to type this than to practice, but this was from this morning.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Better keep him away for your lady. That could be smart for a variety of reasons.

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Oh well, what the hell.

If you don’t have proper grip, alignment and trigger control, all demonstrable on the range, you will have a hard time prevailing in even a short range life and death encounter where accuracy decreases by factors of 2-4 for most people. If you can only shoot a 6” “combat” group on the range at 5 yards, you can expect to at least double or triple that in a fight. Hard to prevail on skill (vs. luck) with accuracy like that.

You would be especially disadvantaged at somewhat longer ranges.

Competency on the range is the foundation for good combat shooting. They are definitely related. Not the same, granted, but not unrelated.

Excellent point. I have two carry guns, an M&P 40c, and a Shield .45. I always shoot the same weight target ammo as my self-defense ammo. I shoot 200-250 rounds each month from each gun, and I shoot 250-300 rounds each per year with my self-defense ammo. My goal is to hit a 4-inch square with at least 55% of my shots at 20 yards. I figure if I can do that, I'll be able to hit center mass pretty consistently at closer ranges.

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What, me worry?

don't know, is that important?

http://sigtalk.com/customprofilepics...pic31175_4.gif

Shoot the same grain loads for practice as I do for carry .. shoot
my Sig 229 or my Beretta PX-4 about the same ..

How to know if you know your gun?
I often asked students if their semi-auto has a magazine safety dis-connector. If they looked at me with a blank look on their face, I
know the answer.

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In Omnia Paratus

I notice that most shooters at the local range are apparently not all that concerned accuracy, POI, POA issues. :-) I am very concerned about those issues and make sure I practice with and carry ammo I am familiar with in my gun. Clint Smith makes this point very well in his video covering the "shoot fast fairy".

Been watching too many movies ?????? Saw this^^^^ just last night myself; shot the ring leader with a hostage, right in the left eye at about 40 ft!!!!...............

I shoot and use to qualify out to 25 yds. I'm not a police officer nor a hostage negotiator............................

If you're in a standoff and do as you described.....you may be a hero for the moment..... but IMO possible criminal and civil actions may be in your near future!!!!!

I don't know, that soda can might do it. Operative word it might.

I see no need in shooting my CCW at 25 yards.

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USAF Retired/VN Vet

You're right. It's more likely to be 25 inches than 25 yards.

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In Omnia Paratus

I don't know anybody that would take that shot as a civilian . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Interesting that only two current or former police officers responded to this question so far. A 25 yd shot for self defense is highly unlikely. Most CCW instructors I have had won't even discuss it and the legal ramifications are greatly increased if an innocent bystander is killed or injured by a missed shot.

The next thing you know he will be hanging out with a little pink Pico.

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Certified Curmudgeon

In my opinion the OP has raised a very valid question.

It is not possible to predict with any accuracy what circumstances will confront me in a defensive shooting scenario. A sudden confrontation might take place face to face, or within a few feet, against a single opponent; it is also possible that a threat could involve multiple aggressors, stationary or moving, in the open or with obstacles in between, at various (and possibly multiple) ranges. The degree of accuracy required in a "close encounter of the wrong kind" may be vastly different than what is required for a situation involving longer range against fully or partially barricaded attackers.

The ballistic path of a handgun bullet is not a straight line; rather it is a parabolic curve in which the bullet is launched at a slightly upward angle to intersect the line of sight at a given distance (zero range), then continuing upward until decreasing velocity and gravity cause an increasingly downward path. Also, shooting at an upward or downward angle produces entirely different ballistic arcs (usually involving higher hits) than shooting on a level field will generate.

The only way to develop the knowledge necessary to reliably predict bullet impact at differing ranges (as well as upward or downward angles) is to practice repeatedly and consistently under a wide range of conditions. This usually requires shooting range facilities beyond those to which most of us have regular access.

Years ago, after a decade or more of military and law enforcement experience with handguns in qualification shoots, PPC competition, and some combat experience, I thought that I was pretty proficient with a handgun. Then I experienced training sessions with multiple targets, at multiple ranges, still and moving, fully and partially exposed, and I found out how dismal my skills were. Since that time I have done my best to build those skills to improve the odds of my survival under any conditions I could reasonably envision and simulate.

My usual practice (3 to 5 times per month) takes place on a 50-foot indoor range, climate controlled, well lighted, with proper eye and hearing protection; in short, ideal conditions for controlled marksmanship. At least a couple of times per year I also practice on moving targets (old tires with targets in the centers, rolling and bouncing across the ground, down hills, etc), multiple targets at different ranges and angles, partially obscured targets, etc. Those days keep me humble!

I also know just where to hold my sight picture to impact center-of-mass at ranges up to 100 yards. Another humbling exercise!

Always more to learn.

But shooting really poorly at the gun club indicates a Lot.

I sight all my 1911’s for 25 yards (they all have adjustable sights). They are dead on, or close enough to make no difference, at all ranges up to 25 yards.

Fussing about the slight differences in poi from the muzzle to 25 yards is a fool’s errand in practical sd applications.

This reminds me of hunters holding high because they imagine that they are shooting at greater distance than they are.

The results are uniformly misses high. More deer and elk are missed by shooting high than for any other reason.

Unless your sights are wildly off, trust your sights at all ranges you would use your gun for the purpose it was designed.

Adding some ‘Kentucky windage’ or adjusting your sight picture because you’re shooting at 20’ instead of 25 yards in a sd situation slows you down without improving your practical accuracy.

IMHO--YOU SHOULD NOT BE SIGHTING IN A WEAPON THAT'LL BE USED EXCLUSIVELY FOR SD / HD, AT AN UNREALISTIC 25 YARDS ! ! !

DO SOME RESEARCH--ASK AROUND AT YOUR LGS, ETC--FIND A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN SIGHT IN AT 20 FEET........THEN YOU WILL KNOW, FOR CERTAIN......

IF YOU DO NOT, I THINK IT WOULD BE FAIR TO ASSUME, THAT YOUR POI WOULD STILL BE SOMEWHERE CENTER MASS. CLOSE ENUFF FOR ROCK 'N ROLL.....

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

With a 38 spl, firing a 158 gr bullet @ 750 fps, typical for a 2" revolver (does not change much/at all with type of bullet or increased velocity), you get a trajectory close to this:

Range POI (inches)
0 -0.6
5 -0.2
10 0.1
15 0.2
20 0.2
25 -0.0
30 -0.4
35 -0.9

Physics don't lie, this is the true trajectory, but we all tend to "see" something different on the range. Or think we do. Certainly, the trajectory won't deviate inches from this extract from a ballistic program. Once the bullet has departed the barrel it does not know anything else to move around.

In a revolver, with the high bore axis and barrel fixed to the frame there is component of "rotational jump" that translates into a rotation of the gun while firing (and the bullet has not yet departed) and then a vertical acceleration to the bullet; this is the reason why in many revolvers the barrel is actually pointing slightly DOWN when you are aiming at 25 yds in a level range, in spite of the additional drop of the bullet. This factor is not contemplated in the ballistic program, and varies from shooter to shooter, depending on grip, strength, load, etc., but it is repeatable for a given shooter, if he/she has good fundamentals and can keep putting the bullets in the same place at X range, and while it changes POI at range X (zero of gun) for a given shooter, it changes the trajectory very little once adjusted for this particular zero.

First you have to be SURE of your zero at X range. Not so easy with fixed sigts. But after that, don't be delusional and don't worry too much.

I don't sight my gun in at 20 yards. That's play stuff at the range. My EDCs are sighted in for up close and personal. Point shooting center of mass groups at ten feet or twenty. Beyond that I don't worry much I can run and hide.

That was an excellent comment but what happens if someone says "some do and some don't"?

If they know which ones do and which ones don't, then at
least they know what they are, and that's great.

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In Omnia Paratus

Except it doesn't matter. By the time, distance-wise, elevation is far-enough off to make a tangible difference, most people couldn't print a group.

In the case of adjustable sights, I'd wager that that most folks would be off on windage long before elevation, simply because their sight pictures and trigger pulls suck.

Differences in POI/POA at the range you're forced to fight at are insignificant compared to what stress and pressure will introduce. And absolutely microscopic compared to the minute-of-bad-guy measure.

PS--Why the hell does everyone think a person couldn't represent a clear, immediate, and unavoidable threat at 25 yards? Does something magic happen moving from 50 to 75 feet?

...

If you're point-shooting, why do you sight-in? Is this some new kind of point shooting that uses the rear sight? Or have you uncovered a new dimension of sarcasm I can't access?

Hits a foot high at 25 yards. I aim for the belly button to hit the chest.

I only practice at 3,5 and 7 yards. Anything over that is a waste of ammo since I have no reason to be shooting at anything at 25 yards for self defense.

I'm not big about worrying about this kind of stuff. The EDC is
not for target shooting, it doesn't need adjustable sights or
Lazers or 4 extra 17 shot mags. You need a gun you can pull
out and put one in center of mass without hesitation. And the
will to do it. Self Defense is just that, it would have to be a
determined bad guy to stick around for a gun battle that would
even involve a reload. People get sucked into this stuff because
it's a money maker. Buy the best you can afford and practice at
reasonable SD ranges. For people who shoot handguns for target
and sport this kind of shooting is no big deal.

Please instruct us Jedi Master...

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Certified Curmudgeon

I do not either. 10 yards max.

Bad English. Nothing to do with sarcasm, at which I am extremely good, maybe better than my shooting, at which I am also extremely good.

In this case I really meant practicing for self defense shooting.

Does that make you feel better?

This is my experience. I like to fire off a couple cylinders each at 25 feet, then 50 feet, then 75 feet. No problem hitting the steel at each distance. None of my .38, .32, .22 caliber handguns have adjustable sights, no need. Only reason I see for adjustable sights in a handgun is to adjust for very different loads (ie Mustang 125s and Mack Truck 195s in .357).

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Certified Curmudgeon

Very hard to claim justified shoot when they're that far away. I'm zeroed in at 10 yards. I do practice at 25yrds but its hard to conceive of a realistic (realistic) situation that would require a shot be taken at 25 yards+ in normal civilian life.

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Who watches the watchers?

So, for all those who only practice to use their pistols at what they consider justifiable close range self defense situations, would you shoot Nikolas Cruz (and hit him, shooting Pro-actively) 30 yards down a school hallway, or outside the school, or would you run up to him to get within a range where you are competent first?

Since I make the effort to carry, I make the effort to be able to use my gun in any scenario, no matter how unlikely. Shooting competently at longer ranges makes you a better shot at close ranges. It’s challenging, fun and rewarding as you get better.

Shooting Cruz at 30 yards (or farther) would be 100% justifiable, unless you are incompetent at that range.

Then you could just run away and let him continue killing.