Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Concealed Carry & Self Defense
o

Notices

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:00 AM
NYlakesider's Avatar
NYlakesider NYlakesider is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northern NY-AdirondackMts
Posts: 7,996
Likes: 12,850
Liked 13,378 Times in 5,042 Posts
Default Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!

Watching the news when they evacuate schools you always see the people inside running out with their hands in the air under LEO guidance. I understand why, no problem there.

Well that same scenario also happens when a non-school building has to be cleared of innocents. Those building could be stores, banks, shopping centers & airports before the restricted area. (We had the biggest shopping center in my area with a guarded evacuation happen a couple years ago and that was how it went) Hands up, in single file they got the people out of harm’s way

Now for my point. What happens when a legally armed person, not involved in any way to the situation at hand has to exit the building under police guard? Your hands are up or behind your head, a good chance under that circumstances your weapon will print. Or it does not print but you are personally checked and your carry piece is discovered. Lots of things could happen, quite possibly very fast. LEOs naturally will be on a adrenaline high.

With the crew, (both LEOs and legally armed civilians) we have here hopefully we can get some interesting answers to a situation that easily could happen!
__________________
14 S&W Revs none with locks!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #2  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:25 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

In to follow; with great interest....................... after Las Vegas; old white guys are not immune
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:35 AM
Doug M.'s Avatar
Doug M. Doug M. is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 14,494
Liked 9,263 Times in 3,702 Posts
Default

Keep your hands up, keep your hands away from anywhere near the gun for sure. Expect to end up at gunpoint (most likely on the ground), handcuffed, and staying that way until disarmed and your lawful status is confirmed. Depending on the level of chaos at the scene, this could be 5-60 minutes.
__________________
NHI, 10-8.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:09 PM
kraynky's Avatar
kraynky kraynky is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 3,081
Likes: 11,368
Liked 5,118 Times in 1,946 Posts
Default

They slam my old creaky bones on the ground, somebody's getting sued. LOL! I don't pay my Chiropractor to keep my bones straight for nuthin. I can accidently bump a shoulder into a wall (cutting a corner too quick) and pain shoots through my back. I can't imagine getting tackled by a few "pumped up" LEO's! Dang, that hurts thinking about it.

I never considered that situation before, but you're right. I only reach up to the higher shelves at the grocery with my left hand. I guess I'd have to just bend the elbows, hold my palms outward, pin my elbows to my side and run (no, can't do that either) waddle out the door.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:15 PM
hoc9sw hoc9sw is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,887
Likes: 1,635
Liked 3,126 Times in 1,326 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
Keep your hands up, keep your hands away from anywhere near the gun for sure. Expect to end up at gunpoint (most likely on the ground), handcuffed, and staying that way until disarmed and your lawful status is confirmed. Depending on the level of chaos at the scene, this could be 5-60 minutes.
That is what to expect. If that presents a problem, it is a risk to consider before carrying.
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:31 PM
Goldstar225 Goldstar225 is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Austin, AR
Posts: 1,398
Likes: 1,618
Liked 2,419 Times in 748 Posts
Default

Under those circumstances, a person can expect to be "separated from the herd", disarmed and verified that they were not part of the problem. Bear in mind that the responding LEO's will not know who the good guys and bad guys are that early in the incident. Criminals change clothes, many I dealt with over the years wore two sets of pants or pants over shorts just for this purpose.

As it was said above, keep your hands away from the gun and cooperate. Please don't reach for the gun to disarm yourself unless told to do so.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:45 PM
NYlakesider's Avatar
NYlakesider NYlakesider is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Northern NY-AdirondackMts
Posts: 7,996
Likes: 12,850
Liked 13,378 Times in 5,042 Posts
Default

Both post 3 and post 6 above are basically my views on what to expect. Not to contaminant I waited to see what other members would have to say on this subject. Your definitely a armed suspect till proved otherwise if your weapon is spotted or you inform the officers!

If that scenario comes to pass it will indeed be a "sticky wicket" as our British friends would say. Hopefully will never have to be proved out! As I have been carrying since the 70s I have a couple plains made out on what I will do or not do assuming I have the chance to be in some sort of control. This is just another.
__________________
14 S&W Revs none with locks!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-09-2018, 12:54 PM
Richard Simmons Richard Simmons is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 8,064
Liked 2,994 Times in 883 Posts
Default

Life in general is made up of risks. The topic of this thread is just one more. I presume if one has chosen to CCW then you have already considered and come to terms with the biggest risk which is relying on someone else for your protection.
__________________
BCCI Life Member #2068

Last edited by Richard Simmons; 03-09-2018 at 06:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:00 PM
Jeppo's Avatar
Jeppo Jeppo is offline
SWCA Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Davidson County, NC
Posts: 2,114
Likes: 7,780
Liked 4,123 Times in 1,411 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldstar225 View Post
Criminals change clothes, many I dealt with over the years wore two sets of pants or pants over shorts just for this purpose.
Hope to never find myself in such a situation. But, if it ever happens to me, I bet I'll wish to be wearing an additional pair of clean pants.

And I'm not a criminal.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:01 PM
ken158 ken158 is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 1,436
Liked 4,487 Times in 1,927 Posts
Default

What is posted above is a good explanation of what will most likely happen. LEO responders will be in a high alert frame of mind and doing anything other then instructed will be met with accordingly. One poster hinted that he may sue if he gets taken to the ground, might as well get his lawyer on retainer and expect nothing in return. A court will consider reasonable reaction from LEO based on the situation at hand in the attempt to safeguard the public while looking for perpetrators.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:03 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Well; on the plus side, if you ever have to deal NYlakesider"s situation ........ you've at least made it out alive !!!!!



Not to be argumentative;this is a very thought provoking thread...........................some thoughts:

These types of situation are full of SNAFU's just waiting to happen...............the rules don't go away or get suspended just because the crowd is bigger.......

Note: my Dad was a Police Officer and involved in at least one shootout (with Bank robbers)..... bottom line I/we want everyone to go home safely to their families.

I agree the ''reasonable man" standard will apply to everyone conduct, police and civilian alike....... what a jury considers reasonable may vary between a 20 year old , me a fit 64 year old; and some here who are well into their 70s..... " I don't think "slamming [his] creaky old bones on the ground" (the Poster's words not mine) to the point of causing injury (and damages which is what will trigger a civil suit)would not, in most cases, be found reasonable unless the person is resisting.

As a First Responder one may also need to think about folks that may have limited vision due to lost glasses or contacts....... or maybe more likely are hearing impaired; or simply frozen by fear; causing one to not be immediately responsive to verbal or hand directions.

Adrenalin and fear on all parties involved will most likely have a negative impact on the situation. Most likely, IMO the question of "was it reasonable" will get before the jury....... well after the heat of the moment has passed............................

In Pa. IIRC about 7% of the population (over 21) have "Licences to carry". If the event/incident is not in a gun free zone...... as a Police Officer (which I'm not)I should have an expectation that one or more legally armed civilians may/will be present.

Given that the presence of a legally armed citizen is foreseeable. For the Officers responding here;have your Departments developed protocols for you to follow? Or is there "a gap" in your training..... that could leave you making it up as you go... and possibly be left hanging in the wind by your command/political structure. A lawyer representing his/her client; would have a duty to his client, to exploit a perceived training gap.

Edit: most civilians ( except for students with active shooter/ALICE Training) won't have any training in what to do or how to respond;

Finally in this day and age; watch out for cameras....... I was surprised at the number of student videos that came out of Fla during and after the shooting on the 14th

Be safe out there! and lets hope we never find ourselves in that situation.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 03-09-2018 at 03:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 03-09-2018, 02:17 PM
Cal44 Cal44 is online now
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Northern California
Posts: 3,568
Likes: 5,473
Liked 6,418 Times in 1,861 Posts
Default

So, if you are told to evacuate, should you just run out hands up with the other innocents and say nothing, or should you tell one of the officers you are carrying?

I'm assuming, for this question, your weapon is well concealed and doesn't print.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-09-2018, 02:45 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Cal44........ that's the problem.....you can't run out yelling........ "I've got a gun...I've got a gun!!"


Question for the Officers present..... how are you trained to respond if you were caught in this situation.... armed and off duty.

Times have changed; but IIRC my Dad (Police Capt)always carried an ID card much like my Pa CC licence/permit in his wallet...... but didn't always carry a badge or a "Creds" case.

LOL maybe one of those " Concealed Carry badges" would come in handy after all !!!!!!

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 03-09-2018 at 02:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 03-09-2018, 03:30 PM
Ozark Marine Ozark Marine is offline
Banned
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 2,370
Likes: 15,735
Liked 5,251 Times in 1,622 Posts
Default

Ken158
Being on high alert is no reason for a LEO to abuse any citizen by putting them to the ground.
If they can't handle the stress before, during and after training get out of law enforcement.

It's not like being in the military.
LEO'S are civilians.
No better than any city worker.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 03-09-2018, 03:38 PM
nachogrande nachogrande is offline
Banned
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gods waiting room, W/C FL
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 3,334
Liked 4,548 Times in 2,010 Posts
Default DON'T KEEP IT A SECRET, SPEAK UP.

While not yelling, "I have a gun". I think I'd let whoever know in a calm voice (hopefully) "I am a licensed concealed carrier, my weapon is ..., my license is ..., both rotator cuffs are bad, please use 2 sets of handcuffs. & DON'T TAZE ME BRO.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 03-09-2018, 03:39 PM
Whitwabit Whitwabit is offline
US Veteran
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 1,351
Liked 2,660 Times in 1,302 Posts
Default

for the LEO's here :

I have a shoulder .. left one . I am not able to raise my shoulder above my head .. so right arm up and left one a half mast sort of ..

what would a LEO do in a situation like that?? many of us old folks have joint problems ...
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 03-09-2018, 03:51 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

This thread just got me motivated to order a 2 ID Window Bi-fold wallet.....(my old wallet is falling apart anyway)...off Amazon.


one clear pocket for my drivers licence and one for my PA "License to Carry Firearms" ....... I can flip the "L to C " up and out..... holding it up and out above my head........................still allows me to display my Drivers licence without exposing my CC.

not perfect but ..... should give pause and have CC licence clearly visible to officers......and if they think it's Police ID (from a distance)...... so much the better I'm thinking.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 03-09-2018 at 03:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:05 PM
dben002's Avatar
dben002 dben002 is offline
US Veteran
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Triad Area North Carolina
Posts: 1,613
Likes: 1,184
Liked 2,027 Times in 826 Posts
Default

<--------that be me......

I carry a 45 appendix, can raise hands above head, place hands on top or back of head etc..etc..etc...never print....not for a second.....

what are you people wearing ???????????????
__________________
Hipcocked45
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:16 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
<--------that be me......

I carry a 45 appendix, can raise hands above head, place hands on top or back of head etc..etc..etc...never print....not for a second.....

what are you people wearing ???????????????
I think the point, as I see it, is:

First;you are not just going to keep walking, eventually you will most likely have to interact with the Police........what happens if they instruct you to "pull your covering garment up and turn around" or pull it away from your body. In the Fla. incident students were instructed to drop their back-packs , while covered by Officers with ARs, before proceeding ......

2nd in my case, a lot of the year I wear an open front ''Shirt", LL Bean flannel lined in Spring and Fall or "fishing style" shirt (Summer) over a t-shirt..... if it's windy I won't be able to button or use my elbows to lock the shirt to my side.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 03-09-2018 at 04:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:19 PM
nachogrande nachogrande is offline
Banned
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gods waiting room, W/C FL
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 3,334
Liked 4,548 Times in 2,010 Posts
Talking DO WHAT HE SAY, DO WHAT HE SAY!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
This thread just got me motivated to order a 2 ID Window Bi-fold wallet.....(my old wallet is falling apart anyway)...off Amazon.


one clear pocket for my drivers licence and one for my PA "License to Carry Firearms" ....... I can flip the "L to C " up and out..... holding it up and out above my head........................still allows me to display my Drivers licence without exposing my CC.

not perfect but ..... should give pause and have CC licence clearly visible to officers......and if they think it's Police ID (from a distance)...... so much the better I'm thinking.
If told to put your hands up & make no sudden moves, I'd go with that, as best you can. Going into a pocket for your CCL BEFORE you are told to do so,
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:23 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
If told to put your hands up & make no sudden moves, I'd go with that, as best you can. Going into a pocket for your CCL BEFORE you are told to do so,

I'd come out of the building with it in hand....... have it out and in hand ASAP if I'm carrying....... unless that hand has my 3913 in it... then it's gun in holster.... exposed ID/ Licence!


Come to think about it; my gun is behind my right hip ...... wallet left rear pocket..... I can do both at once;........ and still chew gum!

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 03-09-2018 at 04:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:29 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,906
Likes: 41,494
Liked 29,147 Times in 13,778 Posts
Default I hope that TELL me....

I hope they tell me to get on the ground and I will instantly comply. If they slam me like they do some people it's going to hurt. A LOT.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #23  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:32 PM
Weimar Weimar is offline
US Veteran
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 487
Likes: 518
Liked 611 Times in 275 Posts
Default

If you watch the people exiting, you will see some with their hands down. It gets tiring, they are frightened, etc. Its any sudden moves that will get their attention. So, hold your hands up and or away from your body, so you don't stand out, you don't look like a bad guy. When asked or if required by law, then inform. I would at earliest time, but too soon and they'll march you out much more aggressively.
That is one of the issues I have with teachers carrying, 1st responders are told, "person with a gun" and they come around the corner and the teacher is carrying, looking for the bad guy. Cops see a bad guy with a gun. Proper training of a teacher or CCW person is to protect in place with students and then wait for police to respond. If in that situation, I would inform police I was there as security for the students, and I was armed.
If exiting and you have some health issues, just do what they say and move slow. If you move slow and lay down, arms outstretched you should be fine, although there have been cases that police don't respond (I am thinking of the hotel where the police officer is screaming at the guy, move, don't move, move and then they shot him... BUT, the vast majority (vast) of police will keep calm, if you are calm or as best as you can be.

Ed
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #24  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:34 PM
dben002's Avatar
dben002 dben002 is offline
US Veteran
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Triad Area North Carolina
Posts: 1,613
Likes: 1,184
Liked 2,027 Times in 826 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
I think the point, as I see it, is:

First;you are not just going to keep walking, eventually you will most likely have to interact with the Police........what happens if they instruct you to "pull your covering garment up and turn around" or pull it away from your body. In the Fla. incident students were instructed to drop their back-packs , while covered by Officers with ARs, before proceeding ......

2nd in my case, a lot of the year I wear an open front ''Shirt", LL Bean flannel lined in Spring and Fall or "fishing style" shirt (Summer) over a t-shirt..... if it's windy I won't be able to button or use my elbows to lock the shirt to my side.
Same response in all situations...same as a traffic stop or any other encounter with LEO....."Officer by law I am informing you that I have a handgun on my person and a license to carry it"....then do as the officer instructs.......
__________________
Hipcocked45
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #25  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:34 PM
Weimar Weimar is offline
US Veteran
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 487
Likes: 518
Liked 611 Times in 275 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
I'd come out of the building with it in hand....... have it out and in hand ASAP if I'm carrying....... unless that hand has my 3913 in it... then it's gun in holster.... exposed ID/ Licence!

Come to think about it; my gun is behind my right hip ...... wallet left rear pocket..... I can do both at once;........ and still chew gum!
oh jesus no. Don't reach for anything until told to do so. Trying to pull out your wallet as the officer comes around the corner, they just see you reaching for something behind you!

And having ANYTHING already clutched in your hand and then shoving it out for them to see, is again bad
Do nothing until told or asked and then do it slow
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:39 PM
.455_Hunter's Avatar
.455_Hunter .455_Hunter is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,285
Likes: 1,240
Liked 1,639 Times in 611 Posts
Default

Even in a "Gun Free Zone", simple possession of a weapon is not a permit to be shot by LEO.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:54 PM
Ozark Marine Ozark Marine is offline
Banned
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 2,370
Likes: 15,735
Liked 5,251 Times in 1,622 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
Even in a "Gun Free Zone", simple possession of a weapon is not a permit to be shot by LEO.
Or manhandled to the ground.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #28  
Old 03-09-2018, 05:08 PM
hoc9sw hoc9sw is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,887
Likes: 1,635
Liked 3,126 Times in 1,326 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
Or manhandled to the ground.
OK, the question of the moment and the later discussions of right/wrong are not relevant.

The question was what to expect, not how to sort it out in court or with investigators.

Expect to be treated as a potential unknown / danger until the officers know better.

DO NOT SAY "GUN". Firearm works fine in a discussion.

And if you get put to the ground and busted up in the process, sure, you may have rights in court, but once busted up, at least with my fragile cancer-ridden bones, I'll be hurting too badly to care about rights.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 03-09-2018, 05:24 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weimar View Post
oh jesus no. Don't reach for anything until told to do so. Trying to pull out your wallet as the officer comes around the corner, they just see you reaching for something behind you!

And having ANYTHING already clutched in your hand and then shoving it out for them to see, is again bad
Do nothing until told or asked and then do it slow
Agree......... sorry not making myself clear.....if as you describe and it would be safe to do so..... no officers around...... holster my weapon (if I ever drew it) have my ID not my gun in hand.......looks like a bi-fold credentials case ..... hands over my head

heck you just might find me kneeling ankles crossed , hands on top of my head forehead against a wall....... remember I'm "stuck with a gun"; with nervous cops with ARs coming my way........ believe me I don't want any misunderstanding......
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 03-09-2018, 05:30 PM
CalmerThanYou's Avatar
CalmerThanYou CalmerThanYou is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 296
Likes: 589
Liked 578 Times in 198 Posts
Default

No way am I exiting the building with the gun in my hand. Keep it holstered, and proceed to whatever safe zone is set up. It may then be or not be relevant to disclose your concealed carry firearm. Hands up as best you can as you exit, and under no circumstance am I touching or going near the gun.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 03-09-2018, 05:32 PM
nachogrande nachogrande is offline
Banned
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gods waiting room, W/C FL
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 3,334
Liked 4,548 Times in 2,010 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
Even in a "Gun Free Zone", simple possession of a weapon is not a permit to be shot by LEO.
OR slamming a senior to the ground.

YES, That aint right, BUT who said we live in a perfect world? Sometimes things just is what they is, & you have to deal with the way they ARE, not how they SHOULD BE.

Last edited by nachogrande; 03-09-2018 at 05:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #32  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:03 PM
.455_Hunter's Avatar
.455_Hunter .455_Hunter is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,285
Likes: 1,240
Liked 1,639 Times in 611 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
Sometimes things just is what they is, & you have to deal with the way they ARE, not how they SHOULD BE.
So when the next school shooting is stopped by a student carrying his/her own "illegal" defensive weapon, they will be awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:23 PM
KSDeputy's Avatar
KSDeputy KSDeputy is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,504
Likes: 465
Liked 1,574 Times in 700 Posts
Default

I would put my badge on, prior to going out with my hands up.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #34  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:33 PM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red River Valley
Posts: 7,690
Likes: 13,045
Liked 28,605 Times in 5,151 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSDeputy View Post
I would put my badge on, prior to going out with my hands up.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




.
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Last edited by keith44spl; 03-09-2018 at 06:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #35  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:38 PM
TTSH TTSH is offline
Junior Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: MA
Posts: 7,707
Likes: 13,905
Liked 9,470 Times in 4,391 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
... & DON'T TAZE ME BRO.
LOL!!!

I have a special problem. I'm old and fat, but with no *** (a sad family trait). If I put my hands up in the air too far or too fast, my pants fall down. Since I pocket carry, methinks I could end up in big trouble. Maybe I should start wearing suspenders.

Seriously, it's an interesting topic. Horrible situation, but an interesting topic. Hope I never find myself in that situation.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #36  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:54 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,906
Likes: 41,494
Liked 29,147 Times in 13,778 Posts
Default You mean that wearing....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weimar View Post
If you watch the people exiting, you will see some with their hands down. It gets tiring, they are frightened, etc. Its any sudden moves that will get their attention. So, hold your hands up and or away from your body, so you don't stand out, you don't look like a bad guy. When asked or if required by law, then inform. I would at earliest time, but too soon and they'll march you out much more aggressively.
That is one of the issues I have with teachers carrying, 1st responders are told, "person with a gun" and they come around the corner and the teacher is carrying, looking for the bad guy. Cops see a bad guy with a gun. Proper training of a teacher or CCW person is to protect in place with students and then wait for police to respond. If in that situation, I would inform police I was there as security for the students, and I was armed.
If exiting and you have some health issues, just do what they say and move slow. If you move slow and lay down, arms outstretched you should be fine, although there have been cases that police don't respond (I am thinking of the hotel where the police officer is screaming at the guy, move, don't move, move and then they shot him... BUT, the vast majority (vast) of police will keep calm, if you are calm or as best as you can be.

Ed
You mean that wearing a bandana as a mask wouldn't be the right thing to do?

Heh heh, just kidding. That is good advice.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:57 PM
WVgal's Avatar
WVgal WVgal is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 11
Likes: 8
Liked 11 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Wow! What a conversation! We had a lawyer who represents the local PD at our monthly meeting last month. I believe it would depend on time and locale as to what you would have time to do. If we had the shooter down, we call shooter down, we then call 911 to let them know that the threat had been neutralized and explain what we were wearing.
This is a hot mess and you could be shot because you have a firearm and they are looking for a "bad guy" with a gun...you just happen to be a "good guy" with a gun. At this time they do not know that. Be safe, be careful! Do what they ask!! Do not let them get that 3913/3906/4566/.45 Shield! Oh, those are what I may have on me depending on the weather.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:07 PM
nachogrande nachogrande is offline
Banned
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gods waiting room, W/C FL
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 3,334
Liked 4,548 Times in 2,010 Posts
Default HUH???

Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
So when the next school shooting is stopped by a student carrying his/her own "illegal" defensive weapon, they will be awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom?
There was a first time? NOT getting your point, nor what is has to do with the OP. What do medals have to do with anything? Coming out alive & unhurt, would be fine.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:29 PM
Dvan34 Dvan34 is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: So. CA-Imperial Valley
Posts: 410
Likes: 459
Liked 479 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ken158 View Post
What is posted above is a good explanation of what will most likely happen. LEO responders will be in a high alert frame of mind and doing anything other then instructed will be met with accordingly. One poster hinted that he may sue if he gets taken to the ground, might as well get his lawyer on retainer and expect nothing in return. A court will consider reasonable reaction from LEO based on the situation at hand in the attempt to safeguard the public while looking for perpetrators.
And don't expect any sympathy to be rendered to a CC at this point, regardless of your innocence. It just ain't done. Especially by the 'Drive Through Media"
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:39 PM
Dvan34 Dvan34 is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: So. CA-Imperial Valley
Posts: 410
Likes: 459
Liked 479 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Yesterday police arrested a student at a local high school in Imperial, CA, about 18 miles from me. They haven't released all the information yet. Apparently some one tipped the police and several guns, ammo and explosives were found. The 'copy cats' are falling all over themselves it appears.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:54 PM
Jessie's Avatar
Jessie Jessie is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,865
Likes: 10,603
Liked 15,202 Times in 5,250 Posts
Default

All you can do is inform you're licensed and carrying and just comply after that.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #42  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:06 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,906
Likes: 41,494
Liked 29,147 Times in 13,778 Posts
Default So true......

Quote:
Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
Even in a "Gun Free Zone", simple possession of a weapon is not a permit to be shot by LEO.
If something happens, even by accident, there's no going back to argue about it. These times are dangerous. When did we start to worry about getting shot by a policeman during a crime just because we are there?
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:14 PM
D Brown's Avatar
D Brown D Brown is offline
SWCA Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,158
Likes: 21,164
Liked 7,109 Times in 1,990 Posts
Default Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!

I guess if they insist on BOTH HANDS in the air, I'll just stand there with my cane held high over my head (with both hands) and tell them if they want me to move, they can come pick up my happy um... self and carry me.

[IMG][/IMG]
__________________
Dave Brown
SWCA #3279
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #44  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:22 PM
joe44va's Avatar
joe44va joe44va is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central VA
Posts: 2,535
Likes: 3,774
Liked 4,332 Times in 1,548 Posts
Default

Great Thread.
Thanks
Joe
__________________
Foster Positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:24 PM
nachogrande nachogrande is offline
Banned
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gods waiting room, W/C FL
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 3,334
Liked 4,548 Times in 2,010 Posts
Default JUST A WILD GUESS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvan34 View Post
Yesterday police arrested a student at a local high school in Imperial, CA, about 18 miles from me. They haven't released all the information yet. Apparently some one tipped the police and several guns, ammo and explosives were found. The 'copy cats' are falling all over themselves it appears.
That's one kid that WILL NOT be getting the Presidential medal of freedom.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #46  
Old 03-10-2018, 10:47 AM
TripLeader's Avatar
TripLeader TripLeader is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 203
Likes: 1,130
Liked 449 Times in 133 Posts
Default

There's a lot of concerns of being shot by the police...

What about being shot by another concealed weapon holder if you both end up in an active shooter event in a place like a shopping mall? Chances are that person could have no training at all and no experience in high stress situations.

Last edited by TripLeader; 03-10-2018 at 10:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #47  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:24 AM
Jessie's Avatar
Jessie Jessie is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,865
Likes: 10,603
Liked 15,202 Times in 5,250 Posts
Default

There's a lot of "what ifs" to ponder. So many that you probably can't cover all of them, especially with the unknowns that will pop up.
I hope to not overthink it to the point of immobility, but instead, try to use extreme common sense and deliberation in everything I would do.
When LEO arrives, I'm going to try and see things through their eyes from that point on.
Or, I may just run out with everybody else and scream like a frightened baby!
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:24 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripLeader View Post
There's a lot of concerns of being shot by the police...

What about being shot by another concealed weapon holder if you both end up in an active shooter event in a place like a shopping mall? Chances are that person could have no training at all and no experience in high stress situations.

While there "may' be an other(s) "concealed weapon holder" present..... there "will" be police at some point. I think the OP was asking about that interaction and how to handle it........ without getting shot.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:30 AM
amazingflapjack amazingflapjack is offline
US Veteran
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 5,947
Likes: 24,644
Liked 6,195 Times in 2,575 Posts
Default me too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
for the LEO's here :

I have a shoulder .. left one . I am not able to raise my shoulder above my head .. so right arm up and left one a half mast sort of ..

what would a LEO do in a situation like that?? many of us old folks have joint problems ...
I have the same situation with my left shoulder, and-I am a disabled veteran that has injuries that could cause my death if I were hand cuffed behind my back, or forced to the ground. I am also a big person who, evidently, has an intimidating affect on others that I cannot leave home. What is my best course of action? What is the first thing I should say to the first LEO I encounter? Thanks.

Last edited by amazingflapjack; 03-10-2018 at 05:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:33 AM
gwpercle's Avatar
gwpercle gwpercle is offline
Member
Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!! Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 6,837
Likes: 7,387
Liked 8,045 Times in 3,651 Posts
Default

Just keep your hands up and follow orders ....don't worry about "printing". If you are bothered about this this type scenario happening to you ....you might want to rethink your decision to carry a gun.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A scene from your neighborhood MrTrolleyguy The Lounge 81 03-09-2015 05:01 PM
Hypothetical shooting scene jaykellogg The Lounge 19 12-12-2012 10:35 PM
Tell Us About Shooting Your Night Guard Revolver. Revolver_Fan S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 26 10-19-2012 07:47 PM
Carrying and shooting the 396 Night Guard YosemiteSam S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 9 10-26-2009 09:30 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:20 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)