Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Concealed Carry & Self Defense
o

Notices

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:10 PM
old&slow old&slow is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: central, Ohio
Posts: 1,165
Likes: 1,038
Liked 1,305 Times in 542 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post


The school that I am on the BOE of is located about 15 miles from our designated State Police barracks, we are amongst a group of communities that derive their police protection from the State. Response time is about 20 minutes. We are in an economically impoverished rural area of the state, with declining enrollment, increasing unemployment and property foreclosures, and the threat of legalized recreational Marijuana being held over our heads. In many respects, our students are in a lose-lose situation.

!
Personally I really like the idea a caller on the Rush Limbaugh radio program had yesterday. Having a Police sub station at the school.
Having a police car in the parking lot and / or a police officer at the school sounded like a good idea to me.. especially in a gun free zone like NJ.

Last edited by old&slow; 02-24-2018 at 02:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #52  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:16 PM
joe44va's Avatar
joe44va joe44va is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central VA
Posts: 2,535
Likes: 3,774
Liked 4,332 Times in 1,548 Posts
Default

I was at my granddaughter's grammar school yesterday. There is only one entrance (although many exits which are locked from the outside) and you have to talk with someone in the office thru an intercom to gain entrance, unfortunately the person in the office can't see who is on the intercom. Good start though and discussions on improvements have begun. No SRO and a Police sub-station is 5 to 10 minutes away, if there is anyone there to respond.
My Daughter wants me to recommend a ballistic plate to put in her daughter's backpack. Other parents are apparently considering the same thing and waiting for my recommendation.
Would pepper spray for the teacher's be of any help?
By the way, I used to keep my 12 gauge pump in my locker in High School after hunting before class. That was in New Jersey. Ages ago it seems.
__________________
Foster Positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:18 PM
Doug M.'s Avatar
Doug M. Doug M. is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 14,494
Liked 9,263 Times in 3,702 Posts
Default

As a rule, smaller firearms are as mechanically accurate as the full size ones. The issue is ergonomics, along with smaller sights and the like.

Some of the comments here are more than slightly uninformed. One that really got me was the loading/unloading issue. Good grief, administrative handling of that nature is almost never needed. Load the darned thing, holster it properly, and don't mess with it.

For me, a pocket carried (in a real pocket holster) modest size version of a service pistol is the answer. Sights are a personal decision - my G33 has the XS sights because of my eyes and needs for that pistol. Being undetected is vital. The students and other staff (including administration) have no need to know if you are armed, and should NEVER be aware of it until it is time for loud noises. Period. Even under our Public Records Act, one of the broadest in the US, I can withhold such information as essential to security, and pigs would fly before would I would disclose it.

Like home security, the answer is layers. There should be limited access points, all controlled. Once in, stay in. Once out, you're out for the day. Overcoming the complacent attitudes of the sheeple will be a chore, but make an example out of someone who fails to follow proper protocol with 6 months off, and the message will sink in.

Teach the kids about proper responses to an incident, like staying the heck out of the way. This is a real problem - I have experienced it, and so have friends. It is not at all uncommon to have idiots get in the way or stop to ask questions in the middle of high risk encounters - the correct answer is that they need to go some other direction with every bit of speed they can muster. If I am pointing a gun at someone and giving them directions, doing anything to distract me is likely to result in very unpleasant feedback.

In a critical incident, will anyone have perfect accuracy? Not likely, unless they have trained to a very high standard - think Cirillo, Delta and other SOCOM units, etc. The kids needs to understand that they should not get between any potential responder and the problem, because real life is a two way range. To the extent possible, armed resisters to the offender need to get as close as possible, and shoot him/her in the face, or in the back of the head or the back of center mass with no warning, and no delay. Shoot him to the ground, and keep doing so until you are reasonably sure he is not capable of fighting. These teachers etc. need to do a 40 - 80 hour class, in which they develop the proper understanding of the law and ethics, and a fighting mindset.

Is a pistol a good choice for a fight at any time? No. It is the only choice for most because it is portable and convenient. A Glock 42 with ball ain't a great choice, especially against a long gun, but is beats the heck out of strong language and those round nose scissors.

Cops: Some of us live and work in places where LE responses to incidents may be on the wrong side of laughable. Rural areas with a limited tax base may result in low enough staffing that 20 minutes to a critical incident is a great response, and under 5 will be a result of good fortune. 5 minutes is too long ... 20 seconds is pushing it. And that's 20 minutes driving like a mad man, under good conditions. Trust me; BTDT, and so have most rural cops. We have interlocal agreements with other agencies from outside the county to certain areas, because our response times can be measured in HOURS to those areas.

Second issue as to cops: since the AARs on Columbine, the training has been that the first officer(s) on scene go hunting. Plates if you have them, rifle, go. Staging and the old school SWAT stuff for a standoff is a no go. I used to carry a set of Sordin earpro that could be connected to my portable that also provided noise reduction for loud stuff, and amplification for lower levels. Get those on, grab my (issued) helmet, grab my rifle and a couple spare magazines, and get into the situation. And I was worried that those few seconds would be too long! If I was on the road again, I would have an SBR (11.5 M4) with a can, set up so it could slung up and charged while still in the car. Staying outside the school as was done was dereliction per se, and should result in firing and decertification. If their training allowed that, command personnel and trainers should be fired. This is not new thinking.

Don't agree with any of this? Fine. You have that right. Don't get in the way, because those who need to address the problem are going run over you, physically and mentally.
__________________
NHI, 10-8.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:21 PM
326MOD10 326MOD10 is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,348
Likes: 1,275
Liked 2,245 Times in 765 Posts
Default

Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz[/QUOTE]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Not sure why the quote thing didn't work^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I had attended a class once that spoke about mass shootings and how they were not a new thing to the US.

After reading your comment I went back and googled "History of School Shootings" and came up with a Wikipedia listing.

If you look at their listing sadly this is not a new thing. I have not independently verified what is listed there on the list.

I believe what is new is the extensive coverage of the 24 hours news cycle when an incident happens. It is my opinion this then spurs others to want to turn it into some form of sick competition to see who can get more attention.

I will say the "LOOK AT ME" culture is new since the 80's.

Just an opinion.

Last edited by 326MOD10; 02-24-2018 at 02:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #55  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:23 PM
Doug M.'s Avatar
Doug M. Doug M. is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 14,494
Liked 9,263 Times in 3,702 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
There is a video out there on the Interwebs where a police officer is in a classroom, explaining that he is the only person in the room competent to handle the Glock in his hand. He then proceedes to accidentally shoot himself in the leg holstering it.
*
He was not a cop. He was a DEA agent, and that video showed quite well how bad their training and equipment was. As I recall, he quit and unsuccessfully sued because he was mocked at every opportunity, as he should have been. Completely clownshoes.
__________________
NHI, 10-8.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #56  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:46 PM
bigggbbruce's Avatar
bigggbbruce bigggbbruce is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Where this month?
Posts: 3,604
Likes: 264
Liked 4,215 Times in 1,714 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 326MOD10 View Post
Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz
I graduated '73.. fists at lunch time worked.

Today social media and keyboard commando youth that play video games that create an unreal reality.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #57  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:18 PM
dougb1946 dougb1946 is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern MN
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 159
Liked 1,949 Times in 725 Posts
Default

Teachers don't have to be trained to SWAT levels. They probably will not be hunter-killer teams, but room defense leaders. Schools go into lockdown, kids huddle in a corner ready to throw books, staplers, etc if the steel door is breached. Teacher could get a 20 gauge pump gun from a locker in the room, fort up in a good spot and defend the doorway with buckshot if needed. But then, some are easily discouraged and knowing there is buckshot somewhere, might think twice.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #58  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:19 PM
Collo Rosso's Avatar
Collo Rosso Collo Rosso is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posts: 1,523
Likes: 1,267
Liked 2,021 Times in 760 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu View Post
All this time I thought the motto was "to protect and serve". Guess I've been wrong.
Looks better than "your on your own" on the side of a car.
And yes, everybody needs to understand that they alone are responsible for their safety and well being.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #59  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:39 PM
delta-419 delta-419 is offline
SWCA Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 2,231
Likes: 6,321
Liked 3,388 Times in 579 Posts
Default School Security

There is no absolute solution to this type problem given the culture in which we all live. As a mental health professional with over 32 years with DOD and prior employment as a training officer in a maximum security prison, I believe that the only solution is to create a hard site with limited and controlled access. I do not recall any such shootings at DODS schools where my children were educated. Why? Total security! Guns, yes lots of them carried by MPs. The main threat was from terror cells but that threat also exists here and nobody is talking about it. The concept is TOTAL SECURITY for as many variables as possible. Almost anything can be used as a weapon. And yes, psychopaths are very real, more than you know. Mental Health must be a viable part of any solution and we are woefully not represented in this respect. Reality! Money! Hardening America's schools will be very expensive. It is up to America to protect its children.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #60  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:46 PM
bigwheelzip's Avatar
bigwheelzip bigwheelzip is offline
Absent Comrade
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 12,990
Likes: 17,229
Liked 41,503 Times in 9,146 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
If you were a teacher .... what handgun would you depend upon for not only your life, but the lives of your students?

I would like to know your choice and your rationale! Thank you.
I'm already EDCing the firearm I'm best with, that I can conceal. If I were in a school and allowed to carry, I'd just keep carrying my current EDC, a CZ PCR.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #61  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:53 PM
lrrifleman's Avatar
lrrifleman lrrifleman is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 4,677
Likes: 18,927
Liked 4,185 Times in 1,862 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by old&slow View Post
Personally I really like the idea a caller on the Rush Limbaugh radio program had yesterday. Having a Police sub station at the school.
Having a police car in the parking lot and / or a police officer at the school sounded like a good idea to me.. especially in a gun free zone like NJ.
I honestly don't know if staffing has changed, but right after 9/11 a majority of troopers were pulled from their respective barracks and assigned to nuclear power plant security. The barracks that covers our community covers about half of the county with just 4 troopers per shift. That is 4 cars during daylight and early evening shift, 2 cars for graveyard shift. They are under staffed and couldn't support a substation. Trooper staffing is actually a viable argument in favor of enhanced gun ownership and the right to carry.
__________________
Judge control not gun control!
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:58 PM
Weimar Weimar is offline
US Veteran
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 487
Likes: 518
Liked 611 Times in 275 Posts
Default

Although I feel I would be able to react in a situation like this, it is because I have training, extensive and the mindset. I don't think the average teacher could - not saying that they shouldn't or can't.

What is needed is - safe rooms - lockable doors - segregation of the facility (can be locked down) and the primary thing is that the schools need to be locked down and use metal detectors to even get into the facility....

Last edited by Weimar; 02-24-2018 at 04:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #63  
Old 02-24-2018, 04:17 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 10,174
Likes: 13,010
Liked 17,098 Times in 5,128 Posts
Default

I'm kinda on the fence about this. I can see problems with teachers carrying guns that have not had enough tactical training. Some may need more than others if they are not gun people.

But what about this?


Put one in every class room and three or four in the teachers lounge. They are relatively secure and quick to access.
__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #64  
Old 02-24-2018, 04:19 PM
Ogandydancer's Avatar
Ogandydancer Ogandydancer is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: High Point North Carolina
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 595
Liked 1,647 Times in 740 Posts
Default

I am for it basically. I would however want those who are armed to have adequate training and enough common sense to properly assess the situation should it arise to know when and when not to use their weapon.

I also think that entrances should be better protected and persons with no valid reason to be allowed to enter.

It is a sad turn that we must revert to this sort of tactics but, if it keeps our children safe then it would be worth it.

There are lots of other things that I could say but, most of them have already been mentioned so I will just leave it here.
__________________
I Cor. 10:13 "1611KJV"
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #65  
Old 02-24-2018, 04:23 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 10,174
Likes: 13,010
Liked 17,098 Times in 5,128 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weimar View Post
Although I feel I would be able to react in a situation like this, it is because I have training, extensive and the mindset. I don't think the average teacher could - not saying that they shouldn't or can't.

What is needed is - safe rooms - lockable doors - segregation of the facility (can be locked down) and the primary thing is that the schools need to be locked down and use metal detectors to even get into the facility....
As a locksmith I can tell first hand that this can become a reality.

Schools could be locked down electronically from a remote location and be secure enough to allow a "tactical" team of teachers enough time to arm themselves and protect the school

It's sad that American businesses are spending billions every year to better secure their business and employees with access control, alarms, and cameras and our schools don't.

Securing and protecting soft targets is difficult at best.
__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Last edited by Kanewpadle; 02-24-2018 at 04:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #66  
Old 02-24-2018, 04:53 PM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 2,604
Likes: 330
Liked 3,255 Times in 1,346 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I’ll be the contrarian. The best pistol for a teacher in the classroom is no pistol. We need some type of armed police presence in schools, just not the teachers or administrators. Too much to go wrong.

We already have teachers breaking up fights in schools. Happens a lot, particularly in inner city high schools. Now we’re going to inject a teacher carrying a gun into that? In the chaos of a school shooting, how will the police id the shooter from an armevery d teacher? Loading and unloading at school? Negligent discharges at school?

People seem to be “grasping at straws” for solutions because the people that can (lawmakers) are not addressing the real issue. A realistic, fair way to keep weapons away from mentally unstable people.
Very few teachers, particularly in urban areas, have the mindset or the will to potentially take a life to save lives.
Most are Liberals, and as such, are viscerally opposed to being armed, or doing what needs to be done to stop the threat.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #67  
Old 02-24-2018, 04:59 PM
WuzzFuzz WuzzFuzz is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,559
Likes: 4,604
Liked 4,820 Times in 1,611 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Collo Rosso View Post
The duty of law enforcement is to investigate and detain, not protect. The officer that didn't go in that school after the shooter did his job by the letter. There is no legal recourse against him as there is no legal requirement that he protect (or in this instance, save) those children. Reality.
Vigilantes disregard law and become police, judge and jury. A armed citizen shooting back defensively is a... citizen!
Question COLLO....What does LEO stand for?

LAW ENFORCEMENT Officer


If everyone has a gun to shoot what ever is deemed not fitting to their way....there's a name for that too.

It's called ANARCHY (The absence of Government)

A LEO's oath is to uphold the LAWS of the U.S., their State laws, and their local laws.

If a law says "Thou shall not shoot another", then the LAW has been broken. To "Protect", then also means to prevent the law from breaking.

Would stopping a driver from going 100 miles an hour in a school zone be prevention, or should they just wait until something happens?


Enough of my soap box on the subject...I think I have let MY opinion(s) be made.


WuzzFuzz
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #68  
Old 02-24-2018, 05:19 PM
Doug M.'s Avatar
Doug M. Doug M. is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 7,445
Likes: 14,494
Liked 9,263 Times in 3,702 Posts
Default

There is a clear ethical and policy driven duty to act. No question. Violations are addressed solely by discipline. However, the idea of an officer or agency having criminal or civil exposure for failing to do so is a whole different concept; almost never will they.

There are exceptions - for example, it is a crime here (and in many other states) for a mandated reporter to fail to take the necessary action when made aware of abuse of a child or vulnerable adult. That would be in addition to discipline, and my client would be advised to fire the officer under any conditions of which I can think at this time. The civil rule is referred to most of the time as the "public duty doctrine" - a duty to all is a duty to none. There is generally no duty to an individual citizen; while there are exceptions to that, the whole discussion is way outside the scope of the topic at hand.

If you want to look at it some more, without contributing to thread drift, look at Public Duty Doctrine - FindLaw.
__________________
NHI, 10-8.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #69  
Old 02-24-2018, 05:24 PM
SMSgt's Avatar
SMSgt SMSgt is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,555
Likes: 3,343
Liked 9,152 Times in 3,432 Posts
Default

Arming teachers is only one cog on the wheel of security in our schools. To leave out any cog means eventual stripped gears and failure.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #70  
Old 02-24-2018, 06:51 PM
Flattop5 Flattop5 is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Southern Arizona
Posts: 658
Likes: 99
Liked 1,109 Times in 388 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz View Post

Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz

In plain English: the old America is gone. In its place is a country that I no longer recognize. It's just not our country anymore. Sanity and common sense are gone. The republic has become an "equalocracy of equality" run by Marxists who wear pink underwear and nose rings. Those Marxists have one goal: to destroy Western culture. They have largely succeeded.


------------
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #71  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:02 PM
Collo Rosso's Avatar
Collo Rosso Collo Rosso is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posts: 1,523
Likes: 1,267
Liked 2,021 Times in 760 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz View Post
Question COLLO....What does LEO stand for?

LAW ENFORCEMENT Officer


If everyone has a gun to shoot what ever is deemed not fitting to their way....there's a name for that too.

It's called ANARCHY (The absence of Government)

A LEO's oath is to uphold the LAWS of the U.S., their State laws, and their local laws.

If a law says "Thou shall not shoot another", then the LAW has been broken. To "Protect", then also means to prevent the law from breaking.

Would stopping a driver from going 100 miles an hour in a school zone be prevention, or should they just wait until something happens?


Enough of my soap box on the subject...I think I have let MY opinion(s) be made.


WuzzFuzz
I have no ax to grind with the police and appreciate your opinion, but I'm not stating an opinion. Let me ask you this, the local sheriff was called to his house something like 36 times and the shooter was referred to the FBI. Can the families now sue the sheriff's office and the FBI for failing to protect their children?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #72  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:19 PM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosierone View Post
IMO if the perp had any caliber round fired at him that he would leave. That said, I'd choose a double stack 9mm.
I wouldn’t count on that. The SRO at Columbine, who was in the parking lot at the time, exchanged shots with Eric Harris multiple times in the middle of the rampage with no effect, as did another deputy when Harris appeared at the door again. And during the school massacre in Erfurt/Germany, where mostly teachers were targeted (16 dead in 2002) the shooter killed the first responding police officer as he stepped from his patrol car..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #73  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:33 PM
Jessie's Avatar
Jessie Jessie is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,865
Likes: 10,603
Liked 15,202 Times in 5,250 Posts
Default

You know what? Currently, what's in effect is obviously not working.
Let's try another REASONED approach.
If that doesn't work, try another.
That's how things eventually get fixed.
Just keep it within the Constitution and all will be good.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #74  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:57 PM
Execpro Execpro is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Ohio
Posts: 649
Likes: 5,055
Liked 656 Times in 339 Posts
Default School safety

If you look around your town/city you will not see “To Protect and Serve” on the police cars anymore. If you do,they did not get the memo.

If memory serves, it was a case in Washington DC were an apartment invasion took place and the women called 911. The Police did not respond for some time. The students where badly abused sexually and beaten. They sued the Police department and it ended up in the Supreme Court which as stated above,that the Police had no obligation to protect anyone ( don’t quote me) as better said by other post.

It has been said that these school shootings are over in about 5 minutes and the Police can’t respond in time to stop it.

I would carry a S&W 9mm shield with two extra mags. You can hit center mass at 20 yards very easily with practice.

I would put steel lockable doors on all classrooms.

Doing away with ALL gun free zones everywhere,would in itself be a good deterrent. ( Look at where these shootings happen: Schools,Theaters,Shopping malls,restaurants,Night Clubs etc.). It worked for over a hundred years.



Just saying! Stay safe and well armed!
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #75  
Old 02-24-2018, 08:18 PM
badge badge is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pa.
Posts: 765
Likes: 822
Liked 1,090 Times in 429 Posts
Default

Arm them if they wish to be and train them frequently. There was the usual " Hue and Cry ", when Pilots were armed after 911 and the sky hasn't fallen. Having worked as an SRO I for one would not have at all minded having armed teachers in the facility. Enough with the cry baby nonsense and look at the Israelis. No incidents since 1974 in the schools since they armed the teachers and hardened the schools.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #76  
Old 02-24-2018, 08:34 PM
cmort666's Avatar
cmort666 cmort666 is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Rocky River, OH, USA
Posts: 9,451
Likes: 1,271
Liked 9,184 Times in 3,621 Posts
Default

I think a lot of this is being gone at from a wrong, and unimaginative way.
  1. Teachers who wish to be, should be armed with their own concealed handguns, carried on their persons at all times.
  2. The idea should NOT be for teachers to get in gun fights. The idea is that they should neutralize the threat.
  3. Smart Sherman crews didn't go toe to toe with Tigers. They used cover and concealment to fire at the Tiger and cause him to button up, and possibly get a mobility kill, while other Shermans circled to the flanks and rear and got kill shots.
  4. The goal of armed teachers should be for one or more to force a gunman to go to ground and or wound him, buying time for other teachers or police to approach him from other angles and put him out of action.
  5. Merely putting the gunman in immediate personal danger, even without wounding him, often causes him to surrender, flee or commit suicide. These filthy beasts don't want to get into a gunfight. They want to kill a bunch of innocent people. They want to shoot OTHERS, not GET shot by their intended victims before they can do that.
A 3" .38 Special (2" will do) loaded with the "FBI" load, or even 148gr. lead wadcutter bullseye loads is enough to accomplish this. You could always have a few rifles or shotguns in locked containers as a backup.

It's certainly more effective than four deputies cowering in fear outside, listening to gunshots and the cries of the wounded.

Last edited by cmort666; 02-24-2018 at 08:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #77  
Old 02-24-2018, 09:12 PM
Old Arkansawyer Old Arkansawyer is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,197
Likes: 23,907
Liked 4,750 Times in 1,621 Posts
Default

We have had some school districts in Arkansas with armed teachers for the last 4 plus years. As far as I know there have been no shootings or accidents of any kind in these districts. Texas now allows college and University faculty and staff with a ccw to carry on campus. Arkansas now allows college campus carry with the enhance ccw.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #78  
Old 02-24-2018, 09:15 PM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,400
Likes: 3,245
Liked 4,624 Times in 1,697 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
If you were a teacher and found yourself in the unenviable position of defending your students from an armed intruder under a deep on-body concealed carry, what handgun would you depend upon for not only your life, but the lives of your students?

I would like to know your choice and your rationale! Thank you.
In the situation you outlined above my choice of handgun would be my Browning High Power, loaded with Hornady Critical Duty for the better barrier penetration capabilities. My rationale is as follows:

"Defending my students" implies that the shooter has found his way to MY classroom door and is trying to gain entry. The door which, given time, would be barricaded as best we could. I now find myself as the last line of defense. Can anyone think of a time when an active shooter was fired upon that he did NOT beat a hasty retreat or kill himself? Neither can I. Remember, these shooters are essentially cowards, looking to inflict pain on others because of their perceived (or real) slights. THEY ARE NOT LOOKING TO GET INTO A GUNFIGHT. With that in mind I am convinced that a handful of rounds sent through the glass or the door would once again, put the threat to flight - whether I struck him or not! And should I have encountered the ONE shooter who is still determined to come through the door...well, my marksmanship has routinely been good enough that even at 15 yards he's going to get a chest full of lead.
__________________
Stay protected my friends.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #79  
Old 02-24-2018, 09:40 PM
Tyree1867 Tyree1867 is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: East of Albany, NY
Posts: 386
Likes: 2,630
Liked 255 Times in 129 Posts
Default

IMO too many LEO adminstators see the SRO position as an opportunity to get the oldest & least motivated off patrol. If these bosses are in a union situation where the 'easy jobs' are assigned by seniority it is time to talk turkey with the union and get SRO jobs off the seniority list. The guy in FL was looking to pile up the time & clearly not motivated to do what was necessary to save those lives.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #80  
Old 02-24-2018, 09:44 PM
Donn's Avatar
Donn Donn is offline
US Veteran
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,421
Likes: 6
Liked 5,315 Times in 1,937 Posts
Default

Said it dozens of times, usually after unfortunate episodes like Florida. Want security in schools? There are thousands of Afghan and Iraq veterans that would be perfect for the job. They're young, already trained up, and combat experienced. Proper and intense screening and vetting of candidates would be required of course, but these people would be tailor made for the job. Let the teachers teach, that's their job.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #81  
Old 02-24-2018, 11:59 PM
adwjc adwjc is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Adirondack foothills
Posts: 1,060
Likes: 10,961
Liked 1,045 Times in 474 Posts
Default

Since no one wants to discuss Texas' successful School Marshall Program, which has implemented in over 70 school districts, let's look at a country that has successfully done what we are discussing here?

Namely Israel. They mandate security, target hardening and yes, arming some teachers. One thing they didn't do was declare schools "Gun Free Zones."
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #82  
Old 02-25-2018, 01:02 AM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

The comparison with Israel is unproductive, because it has operated in a completely different environment.

Israel is a country at war. It has been since its founding, and there is no Israeli citizen born in Israel living there today who has not been through war where they were within range of enemy ordnance of some kind. Israelis have always been willing to make any sacrifices and give the state and security forces any power deemed necessary to prevent acts of violence. And still busses blow up, civilians die, and there is no absolute security.

It’s not going to happen here. All this “hardening the targets” stuff is pure fantasy. Folks who talk about this have no idea what goes on in a modern 2000-plus-student high school. Constant coming and going from 6 a.m. early athletic practice to after-school activities, evening plays and games, and so on. Lots of different buildings with separate access. Unless you deploy a platoon of troops at every school, all school life would have to come to a standstill. Ain’t gonna happen.

And we haven’t even started talking about who would pay the taxes for all that. We have counties out here that basically voted their sheriffs departments out of existence because they don’t like property taxes.

School shootings are scary, and people freak out, but this is not a national security threat.

As for the question of armed teachers, I’ve always been conflicted. Having taught high school for many years myself, I know in a shooting situation I would have wanted to be armed to be able to protect my students. On the other hand, while I’ve known many dedicated colleagues who likely would rush out unarmed to help save kids, like some of the teachers who did so and died both at Sandy Hook and in Florida, there are relatively few I could picture with a gun.

Finally, I also think it’s an illusion that armed teachers would serve as a deterrent. Crazy shooters aren’t conventional criminals; in many cases they come with a one-way ticket. Shooters have attacked police officers and even police stations.

So in the end, the armed teacher should be a personal decision. And one that’s handled as “don’t ask, don’t tell”.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #83  
Old 02-25-2018, 06:47 AM
tops's Avatar
tops tops is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NC, Yadkin County
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 25,453
Liked 8,521 Times in 3,188 Posts
Default

I see several post that states in so many words that teachers are supposed to teach and not carry guns.
I worked the same job all my life and my work duties and job requirements changed over the years and I'm pretty sure I'm not the exception. I knew that if I didn't adapt too the new requirements I would be fired.
Change the job requirements. Larry
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #84  
Old 02-25-2018, 07:23 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,906
Likes: 41,494
Liked 29,147 Times in 13,778 Posts
Default Why not both.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigggbbruce View Post
NO..!!

Time to be a fencing contractor, and metal detector/xray machine supplier.

One point of entry to every school, and security manning equipment.
Tighten perimeter, a metal detector on two sides of the school. Put a locker in teacher's rooms that want to go after the attacker and put an easy to handle carbine in it.

I would say 'limited power' like a 9mm carbine but a perp might armor himself like a Ned Kelly or something so maybe .223s in several places.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 02-25-2018, 07:38 AM
Capt. F. Capt. F. is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Midcoast Maine
Posts: 582
Likes: 324
Liked 1,605 Times in 382 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
I work in a school now and do not see it happening in most areas. Too much to go wrong. Complaints from students “he asked me to put my phone away and I felt threatened because he had a gun”. Breaking up fights? Not me. Law requires me to call the SRO, and that’s all. I have never seen administration back up a teacher when complaints from parents come in and lawyers get involved.

It is MY experience that SRO’s are generally do nothing cops who want weekends off. This 33 year vet who cowardly stayed outside had been an SRO for 25 years. That tells me something. So putting cops at schools is certainly not a bad idea, but no solution.

How about we untie the hands of cops, school officials, social workers, and doctors and allow these nut jobs to be forcibly removed without the ACLU getting involved? 39 visits by the police and nothing done. Multiple suspensions and nothing done. Kid found with ammunition and weapons on campus, not to mention assaults, and the SRO didn’t arrest, which would have prevented him from buyin that weapon in a gun store. Right after the shooting, kids interviewed said when it happened, they knew it was him. And nothing done.

Or we can have a town hall where gun owners get painted as murderers while the Sheriff, whose own officers were at this kids house 39 times, and at least 4 of his own officers stood outside while the carnage went on, gets to roast the NRA spokesperson.

There’s no solution for any of this that will ever fly. I think gun owners are screwed. My kids won’t experience the shooting sports like I do.
Very well stated and I couldn't agree more. I'm 69 and believe I will see guns so severely restricted that my children/grandchildren may not even be able to have my guns at the end of my life.
If anyone thinks outlawing AR's, AK's etc. are going stop those bent on disarming America you're dead wrong. Better get your "boating accidents" planned out for your handguns.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #86  
Old 02-25-2018, 07:57 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,906
Likes: 41,494
Liked 29,147 Times in 13,778 Posts
Default Perps will make a game.......

Perps will make a game out of defeating security measures using distractions, false alarms, etc. to flush the students into a vulnerable position.

I think that cameras with a 'control center' would be good in tracking the ones that maraud the halls.

I think that any systems put in place that would improve the ability to hamper perps and take them out early would be a good thing. Schools shouldn't be like fortresses, but we need to change to serious counter measures like Israel and other countries subject to attack from anywhere at any time.

I also think that school patrols should be equipped to locate and take out quickly any attacker.

Costly? you bet. Worth it? You bet.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #87  
Old 02-25-2018, 08:19 AM
S&WsRsweet S&WsRsweet is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: May 2017
Location: TTown Alabama ,Roll Tide
Posts: 1,652
Likes: 9,772
Liked 2,220 Times in 1,031 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz View Post
Mother Superior with a gun? Oh I hope not.

As Cadmike and kbm6893 have stated, all of this is more of a knee jerk reaction to the shootings at the schools.

I think the underlying questions is, "Has the U.S. broken down so bad, that law and order has been reduced to the Law of the first, or the one who can shoot first and the best?

To be sure, the 2nd says we have the right to arm ourselves, to protect our homes, or ourselves from harm.

But are we turning into a bunch of vigilantes, where we are going to take over the duties of law enforcement?

Guns in schools, how is this going to fly in say California, Oregon, Washington, New York?

Is not the old adage, A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

For me, arming teachers. that's a No Go. Their first and foremost duty is to teach.


Please, someone tell me, since the shooting from the hotel in Las Vegas, are all of the house keepers supposed to be armed too? or station a armed person on each floor of the hotel?


Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz
You make very good points indeed .
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #88  
Old 02-25-2018, 08:44 AM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is offline
SWCA Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,625
Likes: 636
Liked 6,861 Times in 2,541 Posts
Default

As I said, I don’t believe it will ever be a common practice. Certainly not where I live. But in my opinion, the handgun should be a mid-sized semi auto, with a manual safety and a mag disconnect. The Ruger SR9C would be perfect. And it would need to be carried in a good retention holster
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 02-25-2018, 08:52 AM
Constrictor Constrictor is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 60
Likes: 12
Liked 42 Times in 26 Posts
Default

The Supreme Court has ruled police have no duty to protect anyone.

Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone - The New York Times

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz View Post
Mother Superior with a gun? Oh I hope not.

As Cadmike and kbm6893 have stated, all of this is more of a knee jerk reaction to the shootings at the schools.

I think the underlying questions is, "Has the U.S. broken down so bad, that law and order has been reduced to the Law of the first, or the one who can shoot first and the best?

To be sure, the 2nd says we have the right to arm ourselves, to protect our homes, or ourselves from harm.

But are we turning into a bunch of vigilantes, where we are going to take over the duties of law enforcement?

Guns in schools, how is this going to fly in say California, Oregon, Washington, New York?

Is not the old adage, A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

For me, arming teachers. that's a No Go. Their first and foremost duty is to teach.


Please, someone tell me, since the shooting from the hotel in Las Vegas, are all of the house keepers supposed to be armed too? or station a armed person on each floor of the hotel?


Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #90  
Old 02-25-2018, 09:23 AM
MSgt G MSgt G is offline
US Veteran
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 5,124
Likes: 8,481
Liked 1,231 Times in 429 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Bates View Post
I have on occasion discussed with teaching friends what there plan was in a mass shooting case. To a person their answer was the same: protect their students, lock the door, shelter in place and find a protected spot where they could cover the door. Pretty much just what I would do in my on home if someone breaks in. I'll leave clearing my house to the police.
I'm retired Air Force and am in my 15th year teaching at a high school and am the riflery coach. The above are also my thoughts. I think any teacher wanting to carry should be able to. We should be that last line of defense. I should not be clearing the school or going after an attacker unless I'm there when it starts. That's Law Enforcements job.

We practiced a Lock Down drill at my school last week. My students hid in a corner of the room, out of sight from the small classroom door window. I was between them and the door. Not being armed, if someone had forced entry, we could all die in seconds. At least if I had been armed, I would have had something those in Florida didn't have. .....a chance. The outcome could be that we all die, but at least we would then have a chance.

So to answer the OPs question, any of my normal carry guns would work. Would probably carry my S&W M&P C in 9 mm. Why would my right to protect myself diminish simply because I'm a teacher?
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 02-25-2018, 09:47 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgt G View Post
I'm retired Air Force and am in my 15th year teaching at a high school and am the riflery coach.


The above are also my thoughts. I think any teacher wanting to carry should be able to. We should be that last line of defense. I should not be clearing the school or going after an attacker unless I'm there when it starts. That's Law Enforcements job.

We practiced a Lock Down drill at my school last week. My students hid in a corner of the room, out of sight from the small classroom door window. I was between them and the door. Not being armed, if someone had forced entry, we could all die in seconds. At least if I had been armed, I would have had something those in Florida didn't have. .....a chance. The outcome could be that we all die, but at least we would then have a chance.
Glad to hear there are still some rifle teams out there!!!!

Armed teachers IMO would only have two purposes:
1) To make it clear that Schools are no longer gun free killing fields
2) Last line of classroom defense.

Not to clear their schools......hopefully leaving empty hallways to the shooter and uniformed officers and SWAT.

If it starts in front of an armed teacher..... too many variables.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #92  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:09 AM
Kurusu's Avatar
Kurusu Kurusu is offline
Absent Comrade
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,538
Likes: 39,612
Liked 18,061 Times in 4,567 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
Perps will make a game out of defeating security measures using distractions, false alarms, etc. to flush the students into a vulnerable position.

I think that cameras with a 'control center' would be good in tracking the ones that maraud the halls.

I think that any systems put in place that would improve the ability to hamper perps and take them out early would be a good thing. Schools shouldn't be like fortresses, but we need to change to serious counter measures like Israel and other countries subject to attack from anywhere at any time.

I also think that school patrols should be equipped to locate and take out quickly any attacker.

Costly? you bet. Worth it? You bet.

You just reminded me of one thing. I always laugh(to myself) at the seccurity drills I went through for a "bomb menace". After the alarm, facilities are to be orderly evacuated, with evacuation teams making sure everybody gets out, and then proceed to the pre determined "gathering point".

Always thought that, if I was the terrorist bomber, I would set the bombs to explode half an hour after the announced bomb menace, at the gathering point.

Last edited by Kurusu; 02-25-2018 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Little keyboard, big fingers
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #93  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:42 AM
pharmer's Avatar
pharmer pharmer is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Santo las nubes, Florida
Posts: 8,965
Likes: 9,178
Liked 14,618 Times in 4,680 Posts
Default

I've had a CWP for 30 years and a High School teacher for the last 12. I'm all for solutions to "mass shootings" but I won't be armed on campus.
1) I'm a fair shot, but in the madness of someone doing repeated mag dumps like the Broward school, even if I got a shot at the perp, if'n you hit someone's kid as "collateral damage", your life is over as you know it. Even if you survive.
2) If the kids find out you are a carrier, you will be a target. I mean they will scrutinize and find ways to get you sideways. They have their phones out all the time and record at will. I've seen it happen and believe me, if a student makes any accusation, you won't have a friend in the world. Again I've seen it.
3) What do I carry? maybe a 642 in an ankle rig, nope. Same gun in pocket, day in and day out. I can hear it now: "Hey teach, is that a gun in your pocket or are you feeling frisky." Forget effective weapons altogether.
Go on ahead without me in this discussion, there ain't no easy fix for "the crazies." Joe
__________________
Wisdom chases me; I'm faster
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #94  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:11 AM
lrrifleman's Avatar
lrrifleman lrrifleman is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 4,677
Likes: 18,927
Liked 4,185 Times in 1,862 Posts
Default

As I have said before, you folks are giving me invaluable ideas, thank you!

Personally, I am seeing an armed teacher as the last line of defense for both him/her and their classes! It may seem wrong and selfish, but it wouldn't be my students that died without a chance.

Regarding bomb scares, our former CSA stated that the State Police were recommending that we NOT evacuate in the event of a call-in, calls are being viewed as flushing tactics.

Concerning handgun selection, I was of the impression that my match 1911s are too big for deep concealment in a school environment, while my HSc would lack the omph to get the job done, leaving a 3-4" revolver. I have never handled a Shield or comparable modern Tupperware handgun, so I don't known their handling characteristics.

Honestly, I really doubt that I will be in a classroom again, I do have this responsibility as a school board member. The members here have been a fantastic sounding board offering invaluable perspectives and ideas.
__________________
Judge control not gun control!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #95  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:24 AM
jdh's Avatar
jdh jdh is offline
US Veteran
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,664
Likes: 116
Liked 1,116 Times in 510 Posts
Default

I am just the lowly maintenance guy at a rural high school not a teacher or administrator. A few observations,

At any point in time about 25% of the staff at this school are either retired or have military/LE experience.

Hunker down in a secured classroom? Not going to happen. The walls between the halls and classrooms are glass, the rooms are separated by a folding partition.

We do have SROs on campus at the high schools. Most are recent academy grads not old, tired, fat guys waiting for retirement.

Nobody is talking about mandatory arming of teachers, nor turning teachers into elite delta force operators formed into hunter/killer teams. They are talking about giving qualified/motivated teachers and staff the opportunity to have the tools needed to protect their charges. After all one of the prime duties of an educator is to provide a safe learning environment.

Arming some on campus has the same effect as concealed carry. It makes the do bad think twice about acting. They know there are armed persons, they just don’t know which ones are.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #96  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:27 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,849 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

To the OP School Board member........ remember this is not a 7am to 2:30pm issue.............................

One of the things I heard early on and have thought about a lot since; was the report that the shooter entered the building through a stairwell/fire door as students were leaving for the day..........

I've seen this at our HS and Middle school...... if I have to visit our schools I must go to the front door and go through "the drill"...... but kids leave the building every which way on all 4 sides of the building.... to get to their cars.

As parents we've gotten 2 emails since the 14th about the 'newest procedures" to check in........but last week all the doors were open for after school activities..... bet there were 200 folks in the building..... swim team, Baseball and/or lacrosse teams, an "adult" meeting will 100+ folks in the Cafeteria . While I waited to pick up my son I watched 40 adults (in coats) walk into the school,,,, unchecked..... students with large backpacks..... several had one or two baseball bats sticking out .....drop a cover over an AR barrel and no one would take a second look!


The Shooter was 19 a former student; he fit in and knew the "the drill"....

Remember action beats reaction; even a police officer who's been watching a Courthouse for weeks or months gets complacent..... maybe that's why there are 3 or 4 of them at the metal detector....... target and take out a single officer with old fashion revolver ...... and a Shooter gets hold of a semi-auto handgun and 45 or more rounds of ammo. Shooters get to pick the time and place to initiate ..... and they have been practicing on video games for years.......maybe not gun skills but strategy.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 02-25-2018 at 11:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #97  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:45 AM
Bill Bates's Avatar
Bill Bates Bill Bates is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Utah
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 4,545
Liked 7,558 Times in 1,441 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgt G View Post
At least if I had been armed, I would have had something those in Florida didn't have. .....a chance. The outcome could be that we all die, but at least we would then have a chance.

Why would my right to protect myself diminish simply because I'm a teacher?
This to me is the real philosophical question. We have been talking about protecting the kids but ignoring the the more basic question of self defense. A teachers right to self protection is also part of the question that is ignored by many.

We carry to first protect our selves and then others. That is a very basic human right. I've never understood why some would deny other the ability to protect themselves.

I may be assuming incorrectly but I think almost everyone here fully supports the idea of carry to protect ourselves. Many here won't go places, if at all possible, where carry is denied. We won't do business with certain business that feel our carrying is some how a danger to others around us. Strangely I see some here voicing that same opinion when it comes to adults carrying around children in schools. Some how carrying puts those children at risk.

You need to really ask yourselves if teachers carrying put children at risk and should not be allowed then doesn't it follow that anyone carrying anywhere put others at risk and no one should be allowed to carry. Of course we understand that thinking is flawed. Self defense is a one of the most basic rights. It speaks directly to the right to life.

Sadly there are those that do feel that carry puts others at risk; therefore no one should be able to carry or own a firearm for protection of themselves or others. Right now they are being very vocal about that subject.

A teacher has as much right to self defense as any other person. They should never be denied the ability to carry just because of where they work and because they work with children. Like anyone that carries they have a responsibility to always have control of their firearm and no how to use it safely. They should always have the ability to make that very personal choice. That choice should not be left up to others to decide for the teacher anyone else. It is a personal choice.

Why would anyone of us deny a teacher the ability to defend themselves. A teacher carrying also has the added benefit of giving our children a chance and added level of protection.
__________________
Bill Bates

Last edited by Bill Bates; 02-25-2018 at 11:50 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #98  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:47 AM
Camster Camster is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,795
Likes: 993
Liked 1,923 Times in 956 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I’ll be the contrarian. The best pistol for a teacher in the classroom is no pistol. We need some type of armed police presence in schools, just not the teachers or administrators. Too much to go wrong.

We already have teachers breaking up fights in schools. Happens a lot, particularly in inner city high schools. Now we’re going to inject a teacher carrying a gun into that? In the chaos of a school shooting, how will the police id the shooter from an armed teacher? Loading and unloading at school? Negligent discharges at school?

People seem to be “grasping at straws” for solutions because the people that can (lawmakers) are not addressing the real issue. A realistic, fair way to keep weapons away from mentally unstable people.
I've known a few teachers in my life.
All have been very anti-gun and wouldn't be receptive of the notion whatsoever.I guess it boils down to whether or not parents are fine with an increased tax burden in order to have an armed guard at every school for an event that is very unlikely to happen.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:49 AM
ExRanger714's Avatar
ExRanger714 ExRanger714 is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Smoky Mountains, West NC
Posts: 764
Likes: 811
Liked 1,256 Times in 458 Posts
Default

Seems to me if someone wanted a career toting a sidearm they would not pick teacher.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:50 AM
lrrifleman's Avatar
lrrifleman lrrifleman is offline
Member
Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ... Some thoughts about armed teachers  ...  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 4,677
Likes: 18,927
Liked 4,185 Times in 1,862 Posts
Default

@BamBam,

I know where you are coming from, I saw that report also. I also read that he entered the building about half an hour before dismissal, and was going to use smoke grenades to trigger the fire alarm to flush students out of the classrooms. This timing seems to be confirmed by statements that students and teaches felt a second fire drill for the day was odd and they returned to the classrooms.

Looking at an aerial photo of that sprawling campus can confuse matters even more. That campus would need a few platoons to secure it!
__________________
Judge control not gun control!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why Are Teachers bricker The Lounge 67 08-12-2015 10:26 AM
Clarksville, ARK Teachers Will Be Armed Alnamvet68 The Lounge 36 08-10-2013 11:44 AM
Great Teachers shouldazagged The Lounge 20 07-13-2013 12:52 AM
Teachers in Fla. to be graded DeathGrip The Lounge 30 04-10-2010 08:19 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:35 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)