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  #51  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:10 PM
old&slow old&slow is offline
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Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post


The school that I am on the BOE of is located about 15 miles from our designated State Police barracks, we are amongst a group of communities that derive their police protection from the State. Response time is about 20 minutes. We are in an economically impoverished rural area of the state, with declining enrollment, increasing unemployment and property foreclosures, and the threat of legalized recreational Marijuana being held over our heads. In many respects, our students are in a lose-lose situation.

!
Personally I really like the idea a caller on the Rush Limbaugh radio program had yesterday. Having a Police sub station at the school.
Having a police car in the parking lot and / or a police officer at the school sounded like a good idea to me.. especially in a gun free zone like NJ.

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Old 02-24-2018, 02:16 PM
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I was at my granddaughter's grammar school yesterday. There is only one entrance (although many exits which are locked from the outside) and you have to talk with someone in the office thru an intercom to gain entrance, unfortunately the person in the office can't see who is on the intercom. Good start though and discussions on improvements have begun. No SRO and a Police sub-station is 5 to 10 minutes away, if there is anyone there to respond.
My Daughter wants me to recommend a ballistic plate to put in her daughter's backpack. Other parents are apparently considering the same thing and waiting for my recommendation.
Would pepper spray for the teacher's be of any help?
By the way, I used to keep my 12 gauge pump in my locker in High School after hunting before class. That was in New Jersey. Ages ago it seems.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:18 PM
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As a rule, smaller firearms are as mechanically accurate as the full size ones. The issue is ergonomics, along with smaller sights and the like.

Some of the comments here are more than slightly uninformed. One that really got me was the loading/unloading issue. Good grief, administrative handling of that nature is almost never needed. Load the darned thing, holster it properly, and don't mess with it.

For me, a pocket carried (in a real pocket holster) modest size version of a service pistol is the answer. Sights are a personal decision - my G33 has the XS sights because of my eyes and needs for that pistol. Being undetected is vital. The students and other staff (including administration) have no need to know if you are armed, and should NEVER be aware of it until it is time for loud noises. Period. Even under our Public Records Act, one of the broadest in the US, I can withhold such information as essential to security, and pigs would fly before would I would disclose it.

Like home security, the answer is layers. There should be limited access points, all controlled. Once in, stay in. Once out, you're out for the day. Overcoming the complacent attitudes of the sheeple will be a chore, but make an example out of someone who fails to follow proper protocol with 6 months off, and the message will sink in.

Teach the kids about proper responses to an incident, like staying the heck out of the way. This is a real problem - I have experienced it, and so have friends. It is not at all uncommon to have idiots get in the way or stop to ask questions in the middle of high risk encounters - the correct answer is that they need to go some other direction with every bit of speed they can muster. If I am pointing a gun at someone and giving them directions, doing anything to distract me is likely to result in very unpleasant feedback.

In a critical incident, will anyone have perfect accuracy? Not likely, unless they have trained to a very high standard - think Cirillo, Delta and other SOCOM units, etc. The kids needs to understand that they should not get between any potential responder and the problem, because real life is a two way range. To the extent possible, armed resisters to the offender need to get as close as possible, and shoot him/her in the face, or in the back of the head or the back of center mass with no warning, and no delay. Shoot him to the ground, and keep doing so until you are reasonably sure he is not capable of fighting. These teachers etc. need to do a 40 - 80 hour class, in which they develop the proper understanding of the law and ethics, and a fighting mindset.

Is a pistol a good choice for a fight at any time? No. It is the only choice for most because it is portable and convenient. A Glock 42 with ball ain't a great choice, especially against a long gun, but is beats the heck out of strong language and those round nose scissors.

Cops: Some of us live and work in places where LE responses to incidents may be on the wrong side of laughable. Rural areas with a limited tax base may result in low enough staffing that 20 minutes to a critical incident is a great response, and under 5 will be a result of good fortune. 5 minutes is too long ... 20 seconds is pushing it. And that's 20 minutes driving like a mad man, under good conditions. Trust me; BTDT, and so have most rural cops. We have interlocal agreements with other agencies from outside the county to certain areas, because our response times can be measured in HOURS to those areas.

Second issue as to cops: since the AARs on Columbine, the training has been that the first officer(s) on scene go hunting. Plates if you have them, rifle, go. Staging and the old school SWAT stuff for a standoff is a no go. I used to carry a set of Sordin earpro that could be connected to my portable that also provided noise reduction for loud stuff, and amplification for lower levels. Get those on, grab my (issued) helmet, grab my rifle and a couple spare magazines, and get into the situation. And I was worried that those few seconds would be too long! If I was on the road again, I would have an SBR (11.5 M4) with a can, set up so it could slung up and charged while still in the car. Staying outside the school as was done was dereliction per se, and should result in firing and decertification. If their training allowed that, command personnel and trainers should be fired. This is not new thinking.

Don't agree with any of this? Fine. You have that right. Don't get in the way, because those who need to address the problem are going run over you, physically and mentally.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:21 PM
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Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz[/QUOTE]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Not sure why the quote thing didn't work^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I had attended a class once that spoke about mass shootings and how they were not a new thing to the US.

After reading your comment I went back and googled "History of School Shootings" and came up with a Wikipedia listing.

If you look at their listing sadly this is not a new thing. I have not independently verified what is listed there on the list.

I believe what is new is the extensive coverage of the 24 hours news cycle when an incident happens. It is my opinion this then spurs others to want to turn it into some form of sick competition to see who can get more attention.

I will say the "LOOK AT ME" culture is new since the 80's.

Just an opinion.

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  #55  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
There is a video out there on the Interwebs where a police officer is in a classroom, explaining that he is the only person in the room competent to handle the Glock in his hand. He then proceedes to accidentally shoot himself in the leg holstering it.
*
He was not a cop. He was a DEA agent, and that video showed quite well how bad their training and equipment was. As I recall, he quit and unsuccessfully sued because he was mocked at every opportunity, as he should have been. Completely clownshoes.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:46 PM
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Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz
I graduated '73.. fists at lunch time worked.

Today social media and keyboard commando youth that play video games that create an unreal reality.
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  #57  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:18 PM
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Teachers don't have to be trained to SWAT levels. They probably will not be hunter-killer teams, but room defense leaders. Schools go into lockdown, kids huddle in a corner ready to throw books, staplers, etc if the steel door is breached. Teacher could get a 20 gauge pump gun from a locker in the room, fort up in a good spot and defend the doorway with buckshot if needed. But then, some are easily discouraged and knowing there is buckshot somewhere, might think twice.
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Old 02-24-2018, 03:19 PM
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All this time I thought the motto was "to protect and serve". Guess I've been wrong.
Looks better than "your on your own" on the side of a car.
And yes, everybody needs to understand that they alone are responsible for their safety and well being.
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Old 02-24-2018, 03:39 PM
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Default School Security

There is no absolute solution to this type problem given the culture in which we all live. As a mental health professional with over 32 years with DOD and prior employment as a training officer in a maximum security prison, I believe that the only solution is to create a hard site with limited and controlled access. I do not recall any such shootings at DODS schools where my children were educated. Why? Total security! Guns, yes lots of them carried by MPs. The main threat was from terror cells but that threat also exists here and nobody is talking about it. The concept is TOTAL SECURITY for as many variables as possible. Almost anything can be used as a weapon. And yes, psychopaths are very real, more than you know. Mental Health must be a viable part of any solution and we are woefully not represented in this respect. Reality! Money! Hardening America's schools will be very expensive. It is up to America to protect its children.
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Old 02-24-2018, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
If you were a teacher .... what handgun would you depend upon for not only your life, but the lives of your students?

I would like to know your choice and your rationale! Thank you.
I'm already EDCing the firearm I'm best with, that I can conceal. If I were in a school and allowed to carry, I'd just keep carrying my current EDC, a CZ PCR.
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  #61  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:53 PM
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Personally I really like the idea a caller on the Rush Limbaugh radio program had yesterday. Having a Police sub station at the school.
Having a police car in the parking lot and / or a police officer at the school sounded like a good idea to me.. especially in a gun free zone like NJ.
I honestly don't know if staffing has changed, but right after 9/11 a majority of troopers were pulled from their respective barracks and assigned to nuclear power plant security. The barracks that covers our community covers about half of the county with just 4 troopers per shift. That is 4 cars during daylight and early evening shift, 2 cars for graveyard shift. They are under staffed and couldn't support a substation. Trooper staffing is actually a viable argument in favor of enhanced gun ownership and the right to carry.
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Old 02-24-2018, 03:58 PM
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Although I feel I would be able to react in a situation like this, it is because I have training, extensive and the mindset. I don't think the average teacher could - not saying that they shouldn't or can't.

What is needed is - safe rooms - lockable doors - segregation of the facility (can be locked down) and the primary thing is that the schools need to be locked down and use metal detectors to even get into the facility....

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Old 02-24-2018, 04:17 PM
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I'm kinda on the fence about this. I can see problems with teachers carrying guns that have not had enough tactical training. Some may need more than others if they are not gun people.

But what about this?


Put one in every class room and three or four in the teachers lounge. They are relatively secure and quick to access.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:19 PM
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I am for it basically. I would however want those who are armed to have adequate training and enough common sense to properly assess the situation should it arise to know when and when not to use their weapon.

I also think that entrances should be better protected and persons with no valid reason to be allowed to enter.

It is a sad turn that we must revert to this sort of tactics but, if it keeps our children safe then it would be worth it.

There are lots of other things that I could say but, most of them have already been mentioned so I will just leave it here.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:23 PM
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Although I feel I would be able to react in a situation like this, it is because I have training, extensive and the mindset. I don't think the average teacher could - not saying that they shouldn't or can't.

What is needed is - safe rooms - lockable doors - segregation of the facility (can be locked down) and the primary thing is that the schools need to be locked down and use metal detectors to even get into the facility....
As a locksmith I can tell first hand that this can become a reality.

Schools could be locked down electronically from a remote location and be secure enough to allow a "tactical" team of teachers enough time to arm themselves and protect the school

It's sad that American businesses are spending billions every year to better secure their business and employees with access control, alarms, and cameras and our schools don't.

Securing and protecting soft targets is difficult at best.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:53 PM
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I’ll be the contrarian. The best pistol for a teacher in the classroom is no pistol. We need some type of armed police presence in schools, just not the teachers or administrators. Too much to go wrong.

We already have teachers breaking up fights in schools. Happens a lot, particularly in inner city high schools. Now we’re going to inject a teacher carrying a gun into that? In the chaos of a school shooting, how will the police id the shooter from an armevery d teacher? Loading and unloading at school? Negligent discharges at school?

People seem to be “grasping at straws” for solutions because the people that can (lawmakers) are not addressing the real issue. A realistic, fair way to keep weapons away from mentally unstable people.
Very few teachers, particularly in urban areas, have the mindset or the will to potentially take a life to save lives.
Most are Liberals, and as such, are viscerally opposed to being armed, or doing what needs to be done to stop the threat.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:59 PM
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The duty of law enforcement is to investigate and detain, not protect. The officer that didn't go in that school after the shooter did his job by the letter. There is no legal recourse against him as there is no legal requirement that he protect (or in this instance, save) those children. Reality.
Vigilantes disregard law and become police, judge and jury. A armed citizen shooting back defensively is a... citizen!
Question COLLO....What does LEO stand for?

LAW ENFORCEMENT Officer


If everyone has a gun to shoot what ever is deemed not fitting to their way....there's a name for that too.

It's called ANARCHY (The absence of Government)

A LEO's oath is to uphold the LAWS of the U.S., their State laws, and their local laws.

If a law says "Thou shall not shoot another", then the LAW has been broken. To "Protect", then also means to prevent the law from breaking.

Would stopping a driver from going 100 miles an hour in a school zone be prevention, or should they just wait until something happens?


Enough of my soap box on the subject...I think I have let MY opinion(s) be made.


WuzzFuzz
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Old 02-24-2018, 05:19 PM
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There is a clear ethical and policy driven duty to act. No question. Violations are addressed solely by discipline. However, the idea of an officer or agency having criminal or civil exposure for failing to do so is a whole different concept; almost never will they.

There are exceptions - for example, it is a crime here (and in many other states) for a mandated reporter to fail to take the necessary action when made aware of abuse of a child or vulnerable adult. That would be in addition to discipline, and my client would be advised to fire the officer under any conditions of which I can think at this time. The civil rule is referred to most of the time as the "public duty doctrine" - a duty to all is a duty to none. There is generally no duty to an individual citizen; while there are exceptions to that, the whole discussion is way outside the scope of the topic at hand.

If you want to look at it some more, without contributing to thread drift, look at Public Duty Doctrine - FindLaw.
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Old 02-24-2018, 05:24 PM
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Arming teachers is only one cog on the wheel of security in our schools. To leave out any cog means eventual stripped gears and failure.
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Old 02-24-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz View Post

Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz

In plain English: the old America is gone. In its place is a country that I no longer recognize. It's just not our country anymore. Sanity and common sense are gone. The republic has become an "equalocracy of equality" run by Marxists who wear pink underwear and nose rings. Those Marxists have one goal: to destroy Western culture. They have largely succeeded.


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Old 02-24-2018, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz View Post
Question COLLO....What does LEO stand for?

LAW ENFORCEMENT Officer


If everyone has a gun to shoot what ever is deemed not fitting to their way....there's a name for that too.

It's called ANARCHY (The absence of Government)

A LEO's oath is to uphold the LAWS of the U.S., their State laws, and their local laws.

If a law says "Thou shall not shoot another", then the LAW has been broken. To "Protect", then also means to prevent the law from breaking.

Would stopping a driver from going 100 miles an hour in a school zone be prevention, or should they just wait until something happens?


Enough of my soap box on the subject...I think I have let MY opinion(s) be made.


WuzzFuzz
I have no ax to grind with the police and appreciate your opinion, but I'm not stating an opinion. Let me ask you this, the local sheriff was called to his house something like 36 times and the shooter was referred to the FBI. Can the families now sue the sheriff's office and the FBI for failing to protect their children?
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hoosierone View Post
IMO if the perp had any caliber round fired at him that he would leave. That said, I'd choose a double stack 9mm.
I wouldn’t count on that. The SRO at Columbine, who was in the parking lot at the time, exchanged shots with Eric Harris multiple times in the middle of the rampage with no effect, as did another deputy when Harris appeared at the door again. And during the school massacre in Erfurt/Germany, where mostly teachers were targeted (16 dead in 2002) the shooter killed the first responding police officer as he stepped from his patrol car..
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:33 PM
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You know what? Currently, what's in effect is obviously not working.
Let's try another REASONED approach.
If that doesn't work, try another.
That's how things eventually get fixed.
Just keep it within the Constitution and all will be good.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:57 PM
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Default School safety

If you look around your town/city you will not see “To Protect and Serve” on the police cars anymore. If you do,they did not get the memo.

If memory serves, it was a case in Washington DC were an apartment invasion took place and the women called 911. The Police did not respond for some time. The students where badly abused sexually and beaten. They sued the Police department and it ended up in the Supreme Court which as stated above,that the Police had no obligation to protect anyone ( don’t quote me) as better said by other post.

It has been said that these school shootings are over in about 5 minutes and the Police can’t respond in time to stop it.

I would carry a S&W 9mm shield with two extra mags. You can hit center mass at 20 yards very easily with practice.

I would put steel lockable doors on all classrooms.

Doing away with ALL gun free zones everywhere,would in itself be a good deterrent. ( Look at where these shootings happen: Schools,Theaters,Shopping malls,restaurants,Night Clubs etc.). It worked for over a hundred years.



Just saying! Stay safe and well armed!
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:18 PM
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Arm them if they wish to be and train them frequently. There was the usual " Hue and Cry ", when Pilots were armed after 911 and the sky hasn't fallen. Having worked as an SRO I for one would not have at all minded having armed teachers in the facility. Enough with the cry baby nonsense and look at the Israelis. No incidents since 1974 in the schools since they armed the teachers and hardened the schools.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:34 PM
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I think a lot of this is being gone at from a wrong, and unimaginative way.
  1. Teachers who wish to be, should be armed with their own concealed handguns, carried on their persons at all times.
  2. The idea should NOT be for teachers to get in gun fights. The idea is that they should neutralize the threat.
  3. Smart Sherman crews didn't go toe to toe with Tigers. They used cover and concealment to fire at the Tiger and cause him to button up, and possibly get a mobility kill, while other Shermans circled to the flanks and rear and got kill shots.
  4. The goal of armed teachers should be for one or more to force a gunman to go to ground and or wound him, buying time for other teachers or police to approach him from other angles and put him out of action.
  5. Merely putting the gunman in immediate personal danger, even without wounding him, often causes him to surrender, flee or commit suicide. These filthy beasts don't want to get into a gunfight. They want to kill a bunch of innocent people. They want to shoot OTHERS, not GET shot by their intended victims before they can do that.
A 3" .38 Special (2" will do) loaded with the "FBI" load, or even 148gr. lead wadcutter bullseye loads is enough to accomplish this. You could always have a few rifles or shotguns in locked containers as a backup.

It's certainly more effective than four deputies cowering in fear outside, listening to gunshots and the cries of the wounded.

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Old 02-24-2018, 09:12 PM
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We have had some school districts in Arkansas with armed teachers for the last 4 plus years. As far as I know there have been no shootings or accidents of any kind in these districts. Texas now allows college and University faculty and staff with a ccw to carry on campus. Arkansas now allows college campus carry with the enhance ccw.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:15 PM
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If you were a teacher and found yourself in the unenviable position of defending your students from an armed intruder under a deep on-body concealed carry, what handgun would you depend upon for not only your life, but the lives of your students?

I would like to know your choice and your rationale! Thank you.
In the situation you outlined above my choice of handgun would be my Browning High Power, loaded with Hornady Critical Duty for the better barrier penetration capabilities. My rationale is as follows:

"Defending my students" implies that the shooter has found his way to MY classroom door and is trying to gain entry. The door which, given time, would be barricaded as best we could. I now find myself as the last line of defense. Can anyone think of a time when an active shooter was fired upon that he did NOT beat a hasty retreat or kill himself? Neither can I. Remember, these shooters are essentially cowards, looking to inflict pain on others because of their perceived (or real) slights. THEY ARE NOT LOOKING TO GET INTO A GUNFIGHT. With that in mind I am convinced that a handful of rounds sent through the glass or the door would once again, put the threat to flight - whether I struck him or not! And should I have encountered the ONE shooter who is still determined to come through the door...well, my marksmanship has routinely been good enough that even at 15 yards he's going to get a chest full of lead.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:40 PM
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IMO too many LEO adminstators see the SRO position as an opportunity to get the oldest & least motivated off patrol. If these bosses are in a union situation where the 'easy jobs' are assigned by seniority it is time to talk turkey with the union and get SRO jobs off the seniority list. The guy in FL was looking to pile up the time & clearly not motivated to do what was necessary to save those lives.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:44 PM
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Said it dozens of times, usually after unfortunate episodes like Florida. Want security in schools? There are thousands of Afghan and Iraq veterans that would be perfect for the job. They're young, already trained up, and combat experienced. Proper and intense screening and vetting of candidates would be required of course, but these people would be tailor made for the job. Let the teachers teach, that's their job.
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:59 PM
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Since no one wants to discuss Texas' successful School Marshall Program, which has implemented in over 70 school districts, let's look at a country that has successfully done what we are discussing here?

Namely Israel. They mandate security, target hardening and yes, arming some teachers. One thing they didn't do was declare schools "Gun Free Zones."
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Old 02-25-2018, 01:02 AM
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The comparison with Israel is unproductive, because it has operated in a completely different environment.

Israel is a country at war. It has been since its founding, and there is no Israeli citizen born in Israel living there today who has not been through war where they were within range of enemy ordnance of some kind. Israelis have always been willing to make any sacrifices and give the state and security forces any power deemed necessary to prevent acts of violence. And still busses blow up, civilians die, and there is no absolute security.

It’s not going to happen here. All this “hardening the targets” stuff is pure fantasy. Folks who talk about this have no idea what goes on in a modern 2000-plus-student high school. Constant coming and going from 6 a.m. early athletic practice to after-school activities, evening plays and games, and so on. Lots of different buildings with separate access. Unless you deploy a platoon of troops at every school, all school life would have to come to a standstill. Ain’t gonna happen.

And we haven’t even started talking about who would pay the taxes for all that. We have counties out here that basically voted their sheriffs departments out of existence because they don’t like property taxes.

School shootings are scary, and people freak out, but this is not a national security threat.

As for the question of armed teachers, I’ve always been conflicted. Having taught high school for many years myself, I know in a shooting situation I would have wanted to be armed to be able to protect my students. On the other hand, while I’ve known many dedicated colleagues who likely would rush out unarmed to help save kids, like some of the teachers who did so and died both at Sandy Hook and in Florida, there are relatively few I could picture with a gun.

Finally, I also think it’s an illusion that armed teachers would serve as a deterrent. Crazy shooters aren’t conventional criminals; in many cases they come with a one-way ticket. Shooters have attacked police officers and even police stations.

So in the end, the armed teacher should be a personal decision. And one that’s handled as “don’t ask, don’t tell”.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:47 AM
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I see several post that states in so many words that teachers are supposed to teach and not carry guns.
I worked the same job all my life and my work duties and job requirements changed over the years and I'm pretty sure I'm not the exception. I knew that if I didn't adapt too the new requirements I would be fired.
Change the job requirements. Larry
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:23 AM
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NO..!!

Time to be a fencing contractor, and metal detector/xray machine supplier.

One point of entry to every school, and security manning equipment.
Tighten perimeter, a metal detector on two sides of the school. Put a locker in teacher's rooms that want to go after the attacker and put an easy to handle carbine in it.

I would say 'limited power' like a 9mm carbine but a perp might armor himself like a Ned Kelly or something so maybe .223s in several places.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:38 AM
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I work in a school now and do not see it happening in most areas. Too much to go wrong. Complaints from students “he asked me to put my phone away and I felt threatened because he had a gun”. Breaking up fights? Not me. Law requires me to call the SRO, and that’s all. I have never seen administration back up a teacher when complaints from parents come in and lawyers get involved.

It is MY experience that SRO’s are generally do nothing cops who want weekends off. This 33 year vet who cowardly stayed outside had been an SRO for 25 years. That tells me something. So putting cops at schools is certainly not a bad idea, but no solution.

How about we untie the hands of cops, school officials, social workers, and doctors and allow these nut jobs to be forcibly removed without the ACLU getting involved? 39 visits by the police and nothing done. Multiple suspensions and nothing done. Kid found with ammunition and weapons on campus, not to mention assaults, and the SRO didn’t arrest, which would have prevented him from buyin that weapon in a gun store. Right after the shooting, kids interviewed said when it happened, they knew it was him. And nothing done.

Or we can have a town hall where gun owners get painted as murderers while the Sheriff, whose own officers were at this kids house 39 times, and at least 4 of his own officers stood outside while the carnage went on, gets to roast the NRA spokesperson.

There’s no solution for any of this that will ever fly. I think gun owners are screwed. My kids won’t experience the shooting sports like I do.
Very well stated and I couldn't agree more. I'm 69 and believe I will see guns so severely restricted that my children/grandchildren may not even be able to have my guns at the end of my life.
If anyone thinks outlawing AR's, AK's etc. are going stop those bent on disarming America you're dead wrong. Better get your "boating accidents" planned out for your handguns.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:57 AM
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Default Perps will make a game.......

Perps will make a game out of defeating security measures using distractions, false alarms, etc. to flush the students into a vulnerable position.

I think that cameras with a 'control center' would be good in tracking the ones that maraud the halls.

I think that any systems put in place that would improve the ability to hamper perps and take them out early would be a good thing. Schools shouldn't be like fortresses, but we need to change to serious counter measures like Israel and other countries subject to attack from anywhere at any time.

I also think that school patrols should be equipped to locate and take out quickly any attacker.

Costly? you bet. Worth it? You bet.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:19 AM
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Mother Superior with a gun? Oh I hope not.

As Cadmike and kbm6893 have stated, all of this is more of a knee jerk reaction to the shootings at the schools.

I think the underlying questions is, "Has the U.S. broken down so bad, that law and order has been reduced to the Law of the first, or the one who can shoot first and the best?

To be sure, the 2nd says we have the right to arm ourselves, to protect our homes, or ourselves from harm.

But are we turning into a bunch of vigilantes, where we are going to take over the duties of law enforcement?

Guns in schools, how is this going to fly in say California, Oregon, Washington, New York?

Is not the old adage, A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

For me, arming teachers. that's a No Go. Their first and foremost duty is to teach.


Please, someone tell me, since the shooting from the hotel in Las Vegas, are all of the house keepers supposed to be armed too? or station a armed person on each floor of the hotel?


Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz
You make very good points indeed .
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:44 AM
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As I said, I don’t believe it will ever be a common practice. Certainly not where I live. But in my opinion, the handgun should be a mid-sized semi auto, with a manual safety and a mag disconnect. The Ruger SR9C would be perfect. And it would need to be carried in a good retention holster
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:52 AM
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The Supreme Court has ruled police have no duty to protect anyone.

Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone - The New York Times

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Originally Posted by WuzzFuzz View Post
Mother Superior with a gun? Oh I hope not.

As Cadmike and kbm6893 have stated, all of this is more of a knee jerk reaction to the shootings at the schools.

I think the underlying questions is, "Has the U.S. broken down so bad, that law and order has been reduced to the Law of the first, or the one who can shoot first and the best?

To be sure, the 2nd says we have the right to arm ourselves, to protect our homes, or ourselves from harm.

But are we turning into a bunch of vigilantes, where we are going to take over the duties of law enforcement?

Guns in schools, how is this going to fly in say California, Oregon, Washington, New York?

Is not the old adage, A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

For me, arming teachers. that's a No Go. Their first and foremost duty is to teach.


Please, someone tell me, since the shooting from the hotel in Las Vegas, are all of the house keepers supposed to be armed too? or station a armed person on each floor of the hotel?


Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

WuzzFuzz
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:23 AM
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I have on occasion discussed with teaching friends what there plan was in a mass shooting case. To a person their answer was the same: protect their students, lock the door, shelter in place and find a protected spot where they could cover the door. Pretty much just what I would do in my on home if someone breaks in. I'll leave clearing my house to the police.
I'm retired Air Force and am in my 15th year teaching at a high school and am the riflery coach. The above are also my thoughts. I think any teacher wanting to carry should be able to. We should be that last line of defense. I should not be clearing the school or going after an attacker unless I'm there when it starts. That's Law Enforcements job.

We practiced a Lock Down drill at my school last week. My students hid in a corner of the room, out of sight from the small classroom door window. I was between them and the door. Not being armed, if someone had forced entry, we could all die in seconds. At least if I had been armed, I would have had something those in Florida didn't have. .....a chance. The outcome could be that we all die, but at least we would then have a chance.

So to answer the OPs question, any of my normal carry guns would work. Would probably carry my S&W M&P C in 9 mm. Why would my right to protect myself diminish simply because I'm a teacher?
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:47 AM
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I'm retired Air Force and am in my 15th year teaching at a high school and am the riflery coach.


The above are also my thoughts. I think any teacher wanting to carry should be able to. We should be that last line of defense. I should not be clearing the school or going after an attacker unless I'm there when it starts. That's Law Enforcements job.

We practiced a Lock Down drill at my school last week. My students hid in a corner of the room, out of sight from the small classroom door window. I was between them and the door. Not being armed, if someone had forced entry, we could all die in seconds. At least if I had been armed, I would have had something those in Florida didn't have. .....a chance. The outcome could be that we all die, but at least we would then have a chance.
Glad to hear there are still some rifle teams out there!!!!

Armed teachers IMO would only have two purposes:
1) To make it clear that Schools are no longer gun free killing fields
2) Last line of classroom defense.

Not to clear their schools......hopefully leaving empty hallways to the shooter and uniformed officers and SWAT.

If it starts in front of an armed teacher..... too many variables.
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:09 AM
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Perps will make a game out of defeating security measures using distractions, false alarms, etc. to flush the students into a vulnerable position.

I think that cameras with a 'control center' would be good in tracking the ones that maraud the halls.

I think that any systems put in place that would improve the ability to hamper perps and take them out early would be a good thing. Schools shouldn't be like fortresses, but we need to change to serious counter measures like Israel and other countries subject to attack from anywhere at any time.

I also think that school patrols should be equipped to locate and take out quickly any attacker.

Costly? you bet. Worth it? You bet.

You just reminded me of one thing. I always laugh(to myself) at the seccurity drills I went through for a "bomb menace". After the alarm, facilities are to be orderly evacuated, with evacuation teams making sure everybody gets out, and then proceed to the pre determined "gathering point".

Always thought that, if I was the terrorist bomber, I would set the bombs to explode half an hour after the announced bomb menace, at the gathering point.

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:42 AM
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I've had a CWP for 30 years and a High School teacher for the last 12. I'm all for solutions to "mass shootings" but I won't be armed on campus.
1) I'm a fair shot, but in the madness of someone doing repeated mag dumps like the Broward school, even if I got a shot at the perp, if'n you hit someone's kid as "collateral damage", your life is over as you know it. Even if you survive.
2) If the kids find out you are a carrier, you will be a target. I mean they will scrutinize and find ways to get you sideways. They have their phones out all the time and record at will. I've seen it happen and believe me, if a student makes any accusation, you won't have a friend in the world. Again I've seen it.
3) What do I carry? maybe a 642 in an ankle rig, nope. Same gun in pocket, day in and day out. I can hear it now: "Hey teach, is that a gun in your pocket or are you feeling frisky." Forget effective weapons altogether.
Go on ahead without me in this discussion, there ain't no easy fix for "the crazies." Joe
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:11 AM
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As I have said before, you folks are giving me invaluable ideas, thank you!

Personally, I am seeing an armed teacher as the last line of defense for both him/her and their classes! It may seem wrong and selfish, but it wouldn't be my students that died without a chance.

Regarding bomb scares, our former CSA stated that the State Police were recommending that we NOT evacuate in the event of a call-in, calls are being viewed as flushing tactics.

Concerning handgun selection, I was of the impression that my match 1911s are too big for deep concealment in a school environment, while my HSc would lack the omph to get the job done, leaving a 3-4" revolver. I have never handled a Shield or comparable modern Tupperware handgun, so I don't known their handling characteristics.

Honestly, I really doubt that I will be in a classroom again, I do have this responsibility as a school board member. The members here have been a fantastic sounding board offering invaluable perspectives and ideas.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:24 AM
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I am just the lowly maintenance guy at a rural high school not a teacher or administrator. A few observations,

At any point in time about 25% of the staff at this school are either retired or have military/LE experience.

Hunker down in a secured classroom? Not going to happen. The walls between the halls and classrooms are glass, the rooms are separated by a folding partition.

We do have SROs on campus at the high schools. Most are recent academy grads not old, tired, fat guys waiting for retirement.

Nobody is talking about mandatory arming of teachers, nor turning teachers into elite delta force operators formed into hunter/killer teams. They are talking about giving qualified/motivated teachers and staff the opportunity to have the tools needed to protect their charges. After all one of the prime duties of an educator is to provide a safe learning environment.

Arming some on campus has the same effect as concealed carry. It makes the do bad think twice about acting. They know there are armed persons, they just don’t know which ones are.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:27 AM
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To the OP School Board member........ remember this is not a 7am to 2:30pm issue.............................

One of the things I heard early on and have thought about a lot since; was the report that the shooter entered the building through a stairwell/fire door as students were leaving for the day..........

I've seen this at our HS and Middle school...... if I have to visit our schools I must go to the front door and go through "the drill"...... but kids leave the building every which way on all 4 sides of the building.... to get to their cars.

As parents we've gotten 2 emails since the 14th about the 'newest procedures" to check in........but last week all the doors were open for after school activities..... bet there were 200 folks in the building..... swim team, Baseball and/or lacrosse teams, an "adult" meeting will 100+ folks in the Cafeteria . While I waited to pick up my son I watched 40 adults (in coats) walk into the school,,,, unchecked..... students with large backpacks..... several had one or two baseball bats sticking out .....drop a cover over an AR barrel and no one would take a second look!


The Shooter was 19 a former student; he fit in and knew the "the drill"....

Remember action beats reaction; even a police officer who's been watching a Courthouse for weeks or months gets complacent..... maybe that's why there are 3 or 4 of them at the metal detector....... target and take out a single officer with old fashion revolver ...... and a Shooter gets hold of a semi-auto handgun and 45 or more rounds of ammo. Shooters get to pick the time and place to initiate ..... and they have been practicing on video games for years.......maybe not gun skills but strategy.

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Old 02-25-2018, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MSgt G View Post
At least if I had been armed, I would have had something those in Florida didn't have. .....a chance. The outcome could be that we all die, but at least we would then have a chance.

Why would my right to protect myself diminish simply because I'm a teacher?
This to me is the real philosophical question. We have been talking about protecting the kids but ignoring the the more basic question of self defense. A teachers right to self protection is also part of the question that is ignored by many.

We carry to first protect our selves and then others. That is a very basic human right. I've never understood why some would deny other the ability to protect themselves.

I may be assuming incorrectly but I think almost everyone here fully supports the idea of carry to protect ourselves. Many here won't go places, if at all possible, where carry is denied. We won't do business with certain business that feel our carrying is some how a danger to others around us. Strangely I see some here voicing that same opinion when it comes to adults carrying around children in schools. Some how carrying puts those children at risk.

You need to really ask yourselves if teachers carrying put children at risk and should not be allowed then doesn't it follow that anyone carrying anywhere put others at risk and no one should be allowed to carry. Of course we understand that thinking is flawed. Self defense is a one of the most basic rights. It speaks directly to the right to life.

Sadly there are those that do feel that carry puts others at risk; therefore no one should be able to carry or own a firearm for protection of themselves or others. Right now they are being very vocal about that subject.

A teacher has as much right to self defense as any other person. They should never be denied the ability to carry just because of where they work and because they work with children. Like anyone that carries they have a responsibility to always have control of their firearm and no how to use it safely. They should always have the ability to make that very personal choice. That choice should not be left up to others to decide for the teacher anyone else. It is a personal choice.

Why would anyone of us deny a teacher the ability to defend themselves. A teacher carrying also has the added benefit of giving our children a chance and added level of protection.
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Last edited by Bill Bates; 02-25-2018 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I’ll be the contrarian. The best pistol for a teacher in the classroom is no pistol. We need some type of armed police presence in schools, just not the teachers or administrators. Too much to go wrong.

We already have teachers breaking up fights in schools. Happens a lot, particularly in inner city high schools. Now we’re going to inject a teacher carrying a gun into that? In the chaos of a school shooting, how will the police id the shooter from an armed teacher? Loading and unloading at school? Negligent discharges at school?

People seem to be “grasping at straws” for solutions because the people that can (lawmakers) are not addressing the real issue. A realistic, fair way to keep weapons away from mentally unstable people.
I've known a few teachers in my life.
All have been very anti-gun and wouldn't be receptive of the notion whatsoever.I guess it boils down to whether or not parents are fine with an increased tax burden in order to have an armed guard at every school for an event that is very unlikely to happen.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:49 AM
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Seems to me if someone wanted a career toting a sidearm they would not pick teacher.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:50 AM
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@BamBam,

I know where you are coming from, I saw that report also. I also read that he entered the building about half an hour before dismissal, and was going to use smoke grenades to trigger the fire alarm to flush students out of the classrooms. This timing seems to be confirmed by statements that students and teaches felt a second fire drill for the day was odd and they returned to the classrooms.

Looking at an aerial photo of that sprawling campus can confuse matters even more. That campus would need a few platoons to secure it!
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