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  #101  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:52 AM
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And if the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun then there can be no hiding behind cars in parking lots while waiting on the cavalry.

I am a old retired le and you couldn't pay me enough to charge an AR with a determined shooter behind it.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:58 AM
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I've been following and commenting on this thread a lot..... as I've still got one in High School.......and there have been a couple of suicides over the last few years.

and one in College...... on a sprawling 132 acre urban campus. With ( according to the schools website) it's own 100 officer Police Dept.; another 45 security guards and 15-20 command and control personal

I added a couple more comments to my last post.
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:00 PM
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And if the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun then there can be no hiding behind cars in parking lots while waiting on the cavalry.

I am a old retired le and you couldn't pay me enough to charge an AR with a determined shooter behind it.
And you would charge a determined shooter with a handgun?

This baffles me to no end, why do gun people believe a rifle makes a threat superman. Bullets will not bounce off of him because he has a rifle. In the case of a high cap semi auto most likely his accuracy of fire is going to be poor. Once a shooter is stopped it does not matter the tool, it is an inanimate tool. Arguing that a rifle makes a bad guy unstoppable is eating out of the anti gun trough.
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post

Concerning handgun selection, I was of the impression that my match 1911s are too big for deep concealment in a school environment, while my HSc would lack the omph to get the job done, leaving a 3-4" revolver. I have never handled a Shield or comparable modern Tupperware handgun, so I don't known their handling characteristics.
.
I'm a S&W revolver / 1911 type guy. I used to carry a m60 J frame .357 loaded with short barrel 135 gr gold dots.
About a year ago I purchased a 9mm S&W Shield. Easier to carry than the J frame ,, flatter maybe easier to conceal ,, 8 round magazine with a spare magazine ( or two ). Talon rubber grip tape.
I've even shot it in a couple local steel challenge type matches and have done quite well with it.. One time even better than I usually do with my full size match firearm.
I'm not trying to be a S&W shield commercial ,, but I really like mine..
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  #105  
Old 02-25-2018, 12:13 PM
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I'm in before the lock!

By the way, many teachers and administrators do not want firearms in or around school property, regardless of training.
Teacher's unions are generally opposed to the concept of armed teachers. I do not see the concept of armed teachers going any further than making sensational headlines for news rags, tv, radio, and the internet.
Wow sounds like the capital district's view on that subject. Course I tend to detect a spin by the people interviewed on the "news" broadcast and op-eds. It looks like they are saying that they do not want to be forced to carry guns, and of course that is not whatís going to happen. The gun carry would only go to people in the school system that wants to be armed!

As this is NYS and we have some very serious gun control here the amount of people legally able to have weapons would be quite small to begin with. Then try getting the school administrations approve for competent trained people, no one would be approved. Grudgingly sworn LEOs could still be armed in the schools. Though many in the administration would fight it as they would prefer to keep the schools a "gun free zone".
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:30 PM
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Where does the idea that teachers are against guns on campus come from. I don't believe I've seen an actual study-just opinions from non teaches, admins, and union management.
I was a teacher for a few years. I hunted with teachers, I shot with teachers, I bought guns from teachers, and teachers got me into black powder. Granted, that was long time ago.

Note that any poll can be framed to get the answer you want.ie "Would you rather be shot than splashed with water?" Splashed with water =antigun. or "Would you rather be shot dead while begging for your life, or would you rather have a gun and defend yourself?"

Ask to see the actual questions.

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  #107  
Old 02-25-2018, 01:02 PM
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Properly vetted discreetly armed adults in groups do not bother me at all. For seven years, I worked daily at Dillon Precision; only two requirements had to be met to carry on the job - be a CCW holder, and let the company know you are carrying.

In my estimation, about half the employees carried on a regular basis. Many of us were ex-military, and quite a few participated in regular competition shoots of one form or another.

I can honestly say that I felt safer working there than any other civilian employment I experienced.

If I were a teacher, discreet carry allowed AND professional training were provided, what gun would I choose?

This Kahr .45 was designed from the ground up as a discreet carry piece. It's slim - 1.01" in width. It's light - 22 oz. with unloaded magazine. Fine motor skills not required to operate - with one in the chamber, just pull the smooth (5.5 lbs pull weight) double action trigger. I've found that by staging the trigger, considerable precision can be achieved. Like a revolver, no manual safety to fool with. 7 rounds all up, and another 6 in a spare magazine give 13 rounds available. +P ammo can be used, and HP .45s will not over-penetrate. Reliability on mine has been 100% for many, many years.

John

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  #108  
Old 02-25-2018, 01:19 PM
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I am not trying to make myself into a super hero or toot my own horn. I am now disabled, but I know my strengths and weaknesses. While I am more competent with a rifle (NRA Master classification with Service Rifle), I can hold my own with a handgun. I have shot PPC with my K38 and shoot a 98% average (yes, I know the target isn't shooting back).

With the use of cover and concealment, along with a cohort aiding with cover fire, I would advance on a rifle carrying intruder with a handgun! There is no way that I could live with myself knowing that I stood by doing nothing while a school full of kids and their teachers were being slaughtered. Perhaps this confidence comes from competition, and shooting beyond 7 yards! Shooting precision pistol at 50 yards and metallic silhouette out to 220 yards can be beneficial.

Sorry, but I would take the chance. Kids are an invaluable resource!
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Old 02-25-2018, 01:33 PM
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Teachers should not be required to sacrifice their lives so their students can be easily killed also.

If it is true that one of a teacherís responsibilities is to provide a safe learning environment, a motivated, trained, equipped, armed teacher can do that better than an unarmed, hiding teacher. There are many ways to secure and/or conceal an adequate size pistol so students and parents are unaware of it.

Not all teachers can or should handle this responsibility this way. The vast majority of US citizens are unwilling to defend themselves or others. However, being a teacher should not automatically mean someone who values life and wants to return home each night to his or her family should be denied that choice.

If your profession means more to you than your (or othersí) life, go willingly to ďgun free zonesĒ with the mistaken belief they are safe. They are not.

If your life is more important than your profession, work where you can be armed. Itís a choice. I know many teachers and administrators who are armed every day here, and no one is upset about it. If someone doesnít like that fact, they can try to find a gun free school, but they would be hard pressed to find one around here.

As the recent shooting shows, being armed is not enough. Being willingly is even more important, and there are different levels of willingness. Unfortunately, the most effective willingness is to attack the shooter to stop the killing. There is an element of fighting sacrifice here that most people today just do not have.

Most people today have never killed anythingónot a chicken, a deer, or a bear. We are insulated from killing. It is now foreign and we are trained to abhor it. However, each of us participates in killing things every day. We just pretend we donít because we are ďcivilizedĒ.

The problem is, the few criminals and deranged people arenít civilized. We have outlawed all sorts of evil acts and some of the devices used to commit them. This symptomatic legislation may deter some, but not all. When true evil breaks upon us, an equal or greater force for good must be applied to stop it, and time is measured in seconds, not even minutes.

There are still a few in society willing to get training, be armed, and maybe even sacrifice themselves for others. But, they are very few.

Society has provided all the excuses necessary to let someone (or something) else take responsibility for our lives. Sometimes, however, those others fail their duty or cannot perform it until too late.

We can choose to be our own First Responders. Or not.
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  #110  
Old 02-25-2018, 01:58 PM
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One of the other things that bother me is where was the lock on these classrooms where he did the killing? Where was the alarm system?

One teacher should be able to trigger the locks in all the classrooms. It is probably time that all classrooms be equipped with an escape window.

At the very least give teachers flash bangs to toss in the hall before locking the door. I would also give the SRO K9's to turn loose on the shooter to distract them long enough to shoot them. A trained K9 will not cower in fear behind a pillar.

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  #111  
Old 02-25-2018, 02:16 PM
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And you would charge a determined shooter with a handgun?

This baffles me to no end, why do gun people believe a rifle makes a threat superman. Bullets will not bounce off of him because he has a rifle. In the case of a high cap semi auto most likely his accuracy of fire is going to be poor. Once a shooter is stopped it does not matter the tool, it is an inanimate tool. Arguing that a rifle makes a bad guy unstoppable is eating out of the anti gun trough.
Having charged a handgun shooter I, at least, know what that feels like, and am here to remember it.

I know hes not bulletproof but statistically a rifle shooter is deadlier than a handgun assailant.

Your assessment of an unknown shooter with unknown capabilities suffering accuracy degradation under field conditions is speculation and perhaps wishful thinking. With nobody shooting back deliberate aim is possible.

And nobody is unstoppable. Some circumstances dictate a surreptitious assault; others fusillades, i.e. the '97 North Hollywood bulletproof bank robbers

Respectfully JD
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  #112  
Old 02-25-2018, 03:04 PM
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Having charged a handgun shooter I, at least, know what that feels like, and am here to remember it.

I know hes not bulletproof but statistically a rifle shooter is deadlier than a handgun assailant.

Your assessment of an unknown shooter with unknown capabilities suffering accuracy degradation under field conditions is speculation and perhaps wishful thinking. With nobody shooting back deliberate aim is possible.

And nobody is unstoppable. Some circumstances dictate a surreptitious assault; others fusillades, i.e. the '97 North Hollywood bulletproof bank robbers

Respectfully JD
I bet you one million dollars that you can put a AR in the body bag of every cadaver in the local morgue, and nobody will get shot.

North Hollyweird robbers were wearing body armor, and I believe at least one was taken down with a handgun by a well placed shot.

Statistics mean nothing to a dead person, absolutely nothing. Once the shooter is incapacitated the gun is just a gun, not a super weapon. It does not matter if the shooter is taken out with a arrow, a handgun bullet, or even a knife if the defender can get close. All you are doing is backing up the anti gun people with claims of super human powers of black scary rifles. That needs to stop.
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  #113  
Old 02-25-2018, 03:12 PM
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I am a teacher, and I taught in one of the most challenging middle schools in the country for years. I am also an avid shooter - train, compete, practice, etc., on my own time and dime. There is zero reason I should not be allowed to exercise my natural right to self-defense in any setting, in particular when I am placed in charge of defenseless kids. I'm not saying I ever CCWd in "gun-free" zones, but that is why it's called CONCEALED carry. The right gear, clothing, and training is 100% appropriate to address one (ONE) of the issues with mass-shootings. Another must be training and appropriate support to identify students that struggle. FWIW, to answer the OP's question - my M&Pc 1.0. I can hit head shots at 50' all day, and body shots past that out to 75' (the limit of my indoor range). It has good capacity and accuracy, is reliable and fits me well, and it is easily concealable.

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  #114  
Old 02-25-2018, 03:20 PM
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With the use of cover and concealment, I would advance on a rifle carrying intruder with a handgun! There is no way that I could live with myself knowing that I stood by doing nothing while a school full of kids and their teachers were being slaughtered. Perhaps this confidence comes from competition, and shooting beyond 7 yards!
OK, so the shooter is 100 ft away, down the hallway. Lockers line both sides. I unholster my INADEQUATE sidearm, take careful aim and nail the perp on my 4th shot. CSI goes over casualties and finds one of my 130 Win .38 spl Ranger slugs in O'Shaunessey's kid. I'm suddenly the bad guy and more consequences will befall me than the deceased madman. Even if I save 50 kids. I'm not that much man. Joe
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:20 PM
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My thoughts on this.

Teachers are people like everybody else. Some believe in the 2nd as much as everybody else who does, some don't.

Let those who believe be armed on their work. And the next attempt of a mass shooting in a school may very well end up differently.

Better to have a gun and not need it, than to need it not have it.

All things considered, it's still better to be judged by twelve than be carried by six.
My same thoughts actually. This issue is a can of works with School Board feeling and parnets then simple know it all. I do Trump credit for saying " no one would be more passionate protecting a child than the qualified and properly armed Teacher that loves that child" For a teached to shield a child in one of the events and offer up their life let him/her be armed
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:23 PM
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I'm a teacher and I love to see so many people telling me I don't "need" to be armed. Do I tell you how to protect yourself at your job?

No, I've never had to break up a fight, nor have I ever "loaded and unloaded" my carry pistol while out and about.
I'm with ya'! Except, I have had to break up several fights, and actually had to "defend" myself from an aggressive student once. At no point did it cross my mind to draw a concealed weapon. There are tons of ways to deescalate disruptive behavior, that most teachers are already trained in.

This idea of teachers "snapping" or pulling out their guns to gain compliance is as false of an argument as the libtards spout about "blood in the streets" and "shootouts like the OK Corral" when Constitutional Carry laws, or college campus carry laws, are enacted. Teachers are people, highly educated and dedicated to serving children; they are no more prone to wild antics in the classroom than outside of it (and no more prone to "losing it" than ... police officers, postal workers, etc.), and they should be allowed the OPTION to defend themselves in schools just as well as they are provided that option outside of schools (including in the same spaces that kids gather regularly - theaters, parks, malls, etc.).
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:27 PM
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Well to put politics aside for a moment Iíll comment on the OPs question. If I was an armed teacher my first concern upon hearing gunshots would be to either barricade my students from the shooting or to help them evade the shooter. Job 1 is student safety. Any handgun would be a poor defense against someone armed with an AR15.

Iím sure there are some teachers out there who choose to discreetly carry in public schools and I support that, but the idea of ďarming teachersĒ like some sort of government mandate, is absurd and is not a step forward.
A pistol against an AR is 100% better than not having an option. Maybe it's not ideal, but it's way better than ... a chair, book, soup can (yes, that is an actual district's advice) ... I do agree with you that it shouldn't be mandated. However, it should also not be restricted. CLEARLY "gun free" zones consistently fail.
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:38 PM
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OK, so the shooter is 100 ft away, down the hallway. Lockers line both sides. I unholster my INADEQUATE sidearm, take careful aim and nail the perp on my 4th shot. CSI goes over casualties and finds one of my 130 Win .38 spl Ranger slugs in O'Shaunessey's kid. I'm suddenly the bad guy and more consequences will befall me than the deceased madman. Even if I save 50 kids. I'm not that much man. Joe
If you are taking cover, and shooting from a low position, your bullets that miss are going in the ceiling. In most schools that is concrete. The other option is don't miss, I doubt the shooter was using cover, and a poor shot even with a rifle. Otherwise he would have had close to the same number of victims as casings on the floor. I suggest kneeling barricade training, just not doing mag dumps on the range.

BTW in most states what you describe is felony murder, meaning that he is charged for the kid you accidentally shot.

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Old 02-25-2018, 03:48 PM
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OK, so the shooter is 100 ft away, down the hallway. Lockers line both sides. I unholster my INADEQUATE sidearm, take careful aim and nail the perp on my 4th shot. CSI goes over casualties and finds one of my 130 Win .38 spl Ranger slugs in O'Shaunessey's kid. I'm suddenly the bad guy and more consequences will befall me than the deceased madman. Even if I save 50 kids. I'm not that much man. Joe
This scenario is no different than in a park, theater, or mall. A person (might as well be a teacher) that chooses to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense must make this choice regardless of location (might as well be a school). If you aren't capable of adequately using your firearm, then you don't take the risk/shot. Furthermore, there could (should) be some type of "good samaritan law" protection in this case.
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:51 PM
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This scenario is no different than in a park, theater, or mall. A person (might as well be a teacher) that chooses to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense must make this choice regardless of location (might as well be a school). If you aren't capable of adequately using your firearm, then you don't take the risk/shot. Furthermore, there could (should) be some type of "good samaritan law" protection in this case.
In Florida there is, if the shooting is in SD the person is protected by law.
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Old 02-25-2018, 04:32 PM
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Thank you to all that have shared your opinions, I truly do appreciate your views and positions. Please, allow me to add a bit more ...

I taught for just shy of 28 years. For 26 of those years, the school I taught in was exclusively a ground level school, where every classroom was accessible from not only the hallway, but also through the glass window exterior wall. I never felt comfortable during a lock down drill, knowing that glass windows were our only protection from a shooter outside the school. I was quite serious when I shared that our RSO saw me as his backup.

I am now on the school board of a similar style school, and we are now facing the question of school security, like every other school across the nation. Being in NJ, I know that you will never see a teacher legally permitted to carry in a school. But we still need to evaluate and enhance our security.

The school that I am on the BOE of is located about 15 miles from our designated State Police barracks, we are amongst a group of communities that derive their police protection from the State. Response time is about 20 minutes. We are in an economically impoverished rural area of the state, with declining enrollment, increasing unemployment and property foreclosures, and the threat of legalized recreational Marijuana being held over our heads. In many respects, our students are in a lose-lose situation.

Building upgrades might help to offer some of the security enhancements that we need. The presence of armed police or security may not be as dependable as hoped.

Your comments have given me some avenues to contemplate. Thank you!
I MUST GIVE YOU A LOT OF RESPECT, AND CREDIT, FOR TEACHING IN A SYSTEM, WHERE THE ODDS ARE SO STACKED AGAINST SUCCESS. IT DOES APPEAR THAT YOUR STUDENTS ARE IN A LOSE-LOSE SITUATION......

THE FOLLOWING MAY GIVE YOU SOME HOPE. EXTENSIVE RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE, INTO THE FACTORS THAT ENABLE CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS, FROM THE MOST IMPOVERISHED, AND BLEAKEST OF CHILDHOODS, TO RISE ABOVE IT ALL, AND OBTAIN GREAT SUCCESS IN THEIR LIVES....

THE BIGGEST FACTOR IS THAT SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, SOME ONE PERSON TOOK A SPECIAL INTEREST IN THE CHILD. WHETHER IT WAS THE COP ON THE BEAT, THE CROSSING GUARD ON THE STREET, THE SCHOOL LIBRARIAN OR NURSE, THE PRINCIPAL OR ONE OF THE TEACHERS, OR A COACH. THEY ENCOURAGED THE CHILD, AND INSPIRED THE CHILD TO WORK TO THEIR FULL POTENTIAL. YOU MAY ACTUALLY BE, ONE OF THESE VERY SPECIAL MENTORS.....

BTW---IN LOOKING INTO THE BACKGROUNDS OF THESE SCHOOL SHOOTERS AND MASS MURDERERS, ONE COMMON ELEMENT IDENIFIED--IN ADDITION TO MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES--IS THAT THEY ALL LACKED A STRONG MALE ROLE MODEL IN THEIR LIVES, TO GUIDE THEM........
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Old 02-25-2018, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tops View Post
I see several post that states in so many words that teachers are supposed to teach and not carry guns.
I worked the same job all my life and my work duties and job requirements changed over the years and I'm pretty sure I'm not the exception. I knew that if I didn't adapt too the new requirements I would be fired.
Change the job requirements. Larry
That's all just excuse making for why the ONLY solution is to take YOUR gun.

Besides, you don't need a gun. The police will protect you...

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Old 02-25-2018, 05:55 PM
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That's all just excuse making for why the ONLY solution is to take YOUR gun.

Besides, you don't need a gun. The police will protect you...

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Don't know if am reading this right so don't unerstand your stand as a long time Educator. The onsite DEputy did a lot to save 17 life,,,, Did I read on the Police
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:18 PM
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I'm retired Air Force and am in my 15th year teaching at a high school and am the riflery coach. The above are also my thoughts. I think any teacher wanting to carry should be able to. We should be that last line of defense. I should not be clearing the school or going after an attacker unless I'm there when it starts. That's Law Enforcements job.
And did the Broward County Sheriff's Department do that job?

And to further expand, did they and the FBI lift a finger to find out if the murderer was actually a danger to others?

You can place a child-like faith in completely unaccountable others who have manifested a supreme indifference to your life, or you can take the "proactive" approach about which they speak so much...
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:23 PM
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For real...it's not hard to carry a gun. The knowledge that they have them is likely all the deterrent that is needed. You want match grade accuracy pay them to train and hope. I've fired well over 1000 rounds in practice this year. I'm guessing that's a good amount compared to what some people don't do that have carry permits. My carry guns are spot on.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:27 PM
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Don't know if am reading this right so don't unerstand your stand as a long time Educator. The onsite DEputy did a lot to save 17 life,,,, Did I read on the Police
You seemed to be having trouble posting your message so I'll be painfully clear:
  1. The ONLY goal of the anti-gun cultists is to take as many firearms away from as many NON-criminal people as possible.
  2. All evidence points to the Broward deputies on scene being sniveling cowards. Their craven inactivity is now being BOTH ignored, AND used as an excuse why NON-cowards can't defend themselves with a firearm.

The current media campaign against the NRA (and gun owners in general) is a monstrous morass of lies, deceit and excuse making.

You'd almost swear that the Sheriff had been reading about Stalin's murder of Kirov before he went on CNN. It was a textbook exercise in blaming other for what YOU have done.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Motorsporting View Post
Furthermore, there could (should) be some type of "good samaritan law" protection in this case.
In Ohio, if the shoot is determined to be justified, the wouldbe killer and or his mutant "family" can sue you until the sun collapses into a neutron star. They can't collect a Venezuelan Bolivar, which as of this writing = 0.000030 US Dollar.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:36 PM
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A pistol against an AR is 100% better than not having an option. Maybe it's not ideal, but it's way better than ... a chair, book, soup can (yes, that is an actual district's advice) ... I do agree with you that it shouldn't be mandated. However, it should also not be restricted. CLEARLY "gun free" zones consistently fail.
The opponents of armed self-defense quite clearly prefer the CERTAINTY of DEATH by INTENTIONAL execution, to the POSSIBILITY of ACCIDENTAL wounding.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:40 PM
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Two weeks ago I was at the range, as I was finishing up with the 460 I let some new arrivals in the section I was in know that I was going to be a little loud. They really enjoyed the show, if they had said something I would have let them have a turn. I spent about an hour or so shooting the breeze in the shop with some friends, I later found out talking to them that those two boys were with their mother who is a art teacher and she is a bit miffed that she has to leave her carry gun in her car at work. Her classroom is glass all the way around.

We are making a lot of assumptions for what teachers want and need, it should be about what they want. The first and most important thing is to get rid of the free shooting zones.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:44 PM
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OK, so the shooter is 100 ft away, down the hallway. Lockers line both sides. I unholster my INADEQUATE sidearm, take careful aim and nail the perp on my 4th shot. CSI goes over casualties and finds one of my 130 Win .38 spl Ranger slugs in O'Shaunessey's kid. I'm suddenly the bad guy and more consequences will befall me than the deceased madman. Even if I save 50 kids. I'm not that much man. Joe
  1. Why do you carry an "inadequate" sidearm? Too poor? I hear there are some really good deals on Star BMs these days. You might also want to check out Israeli surplus Browning Hi Powers at SOG.
  2. I've already outlined a better scenario... which of course requires at least ONE other teacher or administrator to not be a sniveling bed wetter.
  3. There's always an excuse to do nothing and passively await the headsman's axe.
But hey, I'm told this is all moot anyway because you don't need a gun AT ALL, since the police will "protect" you...
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:49 PM
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Wow sounds like the capital district's view on that subject.
I practically died laughing when that came up on the ol' Spectrum news, NYL. Whatsherface was raging about how teachers didn't want guns, and I'm thinking, "Lady, a third of the people I shoot with are retired teachers!"

---

Now, as to the Broward County guys.

Everything I've seen has been...well, not good. Most of it quite terrible.

I'm pretty enraged that that little...twit and his puppetmasters had the nerve to twist the situation into "cops don't want to face AR-15s". I mean, like the rest of you, I've heard a lot of vitriol and ignorance that sent the ol' BP skyrocketing.

But.

I wasn't there.

I haven't heard the accused's side of the story.

And we'd do well not to judge every single deputy of the Broward County Sheriff's Department on the actions of a select few.

Just as I wouldn't want to be judged as a gun owner by the actions of, oh, a guy that shot up a school or a concert or a movie theater.

Because that's what our avowed enemies do, it's what they're doing right now, and it's what they want all of us to do. And we're better than that.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:50 PM
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This baffles me to no end, why do gun people believe a rifle makes a threat superman.
It's just part of the "assault weapon" propaganda.

They have to be banned because they give the possessor the super powers of Thor, Superman, and Bugs Bunny combined.

If you're confronted by somebody with a rifle and you have a handgun, you might as well just shoot YOURSELF the way that cop at the "Draw Muhammed" event did... no, wait...
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:56 PM
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Just as I wouldn't want to be judged as a gun owner by the actions of, oh, a guy that shot up a school or a concert or a movie theater.
The problem is that THEY'RE the ones judging you by those actions... while they hide, crying like school girls.

They're bleating, "You don't need a gun, the police will protect you."

It was a lie before they said it.

Now it's a massively obvious lie.

This was a despicable farce orchestrated by cowards, liars, hypocrites and grifters.

Some people may be willing to give them a pass. I'm not one of them.

They OWN this, lock, stock, and bullet riddled body.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ExRanger714 View Post
Seems to me if someone wanted a career toting a sidearm they would not pick teacher.
Then they'd better stop holding fire drills because they're not firemen either.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:01 PM
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Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.
Raises hand:

Because back then somebody who committed a murder didn't get more SYMPATHETIC publicity than Elvis, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones COMBINED?
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:28 PM
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[list=1][*]Why do you carry an "inadequate" sidearm? Too poor? All sidearms are inadequate in "serious social encounters."[*]I've already outlined a better scenario... which of course requires at least ONE other teacher or administrator to not be a sniveling bed wetter. I'm not counting on that. Besides, the turnover is so high I don't even learn names before they're gone.[*]There's always an excuse to do nothing and passively await the headsman's axe. Missed my point entirely. I'm better qualified than at least 90% of personnel at my location. NOBODY will have my back should an aforementioned "felony murder" occur and the perp is deceased. O'Shaunessey will have the local "For the People" ambulance chasers owning my life before nightfall.
No easy answers for this. Joe
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:28 PM
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I will toss in my ideas, how about rotating regular duty officers for their weekly day at the school..no one officer is there too long to become overly complacent, hire more officers with some kind of federal grant. Officers will have a metal detector wand like at outdoor events,wanding those they feel like checking. Classrooms could be fitted with a falling bar/latch lock operated from inside the room only. If funding allowed airport style detection it probably would bottleneck ingress and egress to the point that it would eventually be bypassed by impatient staff and students, I don't see students and staff putting up with lines in rain snow or heat for long. The system needs to be somewhat simplified and yet provide an improvement over what we have..supplant these with removal of the gun free status and allow those who are legal to conceal to do so if they want to. This is all coming from a father with three children currently in public schools..Nothing would make me smile bigger than to show up tomorrow morning to drop off my girls at school and see a officer or two at their school with a AR15 slung over his shoulder wearing a vest and a detector in hand, knowing I could carry concealed right inside if needed.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:40 PM
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If a teacher would like to carry and if the teacher qualifies with his/her firearm of choice then the teacher shall be allowed to carry.

The teacher that chooses to carry shall be able to get specialized training and it shall be mandatory to attend and pass.

Local LE needs to be aware of who is carrying should they ever have to respond to an active shooter call.

It should be noted in the schools SOP that armed teachers only protect their current class and are not to go out on their own to confront the shooter. A dead teacher and a then helpless class is counterproductive in my opinion. They should protect their current students until LE arrives.

Another alternative is to hire more SRO's. This would create more jobs.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:55 PM
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I will toss in my ideas, how about rotating regular duty officers for their weekly day at the school..no one officer is there too long to become overly complacent,......
This might be a good point to explain something that most folks don't really appreciate:

The resource officer's job is NOT primarily to protect the school and to arrest miscreants. Our current SRO is SWAT-trained and would undoubtedly do his best in a shooting situation, but the SRO's job is mostly preventative. He spends his time working with the discipline vice principal and deans to identify potential troublemakers, establish connections with students, work abuse cases, generate intel on drug dealers trying to work their way into the student body (a much bigger overall threat than shooters, and at every school in the nation every day of the school year), and keep problems from developing. That necessitates the officer being a known and hopefully trusted permanent presence on campus. Ours rotate on a five year tour. In fact, if arrests need to be made, our PD usually brings in other officers in order to not have the SRO's role being perceived primarily as that of an enforcer by the students.

It's impossibe to prove a negative, but who knows how much has NOT happened because of an SRO's work.

Everybody focuses on that deputy's failure to engage the shooter, but his apparent failure to do his job beforehand acting on info he got about the potential of the shooter may be even more egregious. There is no telling whether charging into the building would have helped, but acting on the warning signs might have prevented the whole event.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:28 PM
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Raises hand:

Because back then somebody who committed a murder didn't get more SYMPATHETIC publicity than Elvis, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones COMBINED?
Actually that wasn't my question it was a failed attempt at capturing a quote from another poster. As noted in my post.

My post pretty much mirrored yours in regard to the 24 hour media cycle, etc....

In response to CMORT666's post #135 and my post #54.

CMORT666 your responses are confusing to me. I believe that you are using sarcasm but sometimes they seem to fly in the face of one another if that is not the case.

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Old 02-25-2018, 09:37 PM
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CMORT666 your responses are confusing to me. I believe that you are using sarcasm but sometimes they seem to fly in the face of one another if that is not the case.
I use sarcasm... a LOT.

Anything addressing the gun control cult or the Broward County Sheriff should be seen as arising out of profound contempt.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:48 PM
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This might be a good point to explain something that most folks don't really appreciate:

The resource officer's job is NOT primarily to protect the school and to arrest miscreants. Our current SRO is SWAT-trained and would undoubtedly do his best in a shooting situation, but the SRO's job is mostly preventative. He spends his time working with the discipline vice principal and deans to identify potential troublemakers, establish connections with students, work abuse cases, generate intel on drug dealers trying to work their way into the student body (a much bigger overall threat than shooters, and at every school in the nation every day of the school year), and keep problems from developing. That necessitates the officer being a known and hopefully trusted permanent presence on campus. Ours rotate on a five year tour. In fact, if arrests need to be made, our PD usually brings in other officers in order to not have the SRO's role being perceived primarily as that of an enforcer by the students.

It's impossibe to prove a negative, but who knows how much has NOT happened because of an SRO's work.

Everybody focuses on that deputy's failure to engage the shooter, but his apparent failure to do his job beforehand acting on info he got about the potential of the shooter may be even more egregious. There is no telling whether charging into the building would have helped, but acting on the warning signs might have prevented the whole event.
Keep the SRO on staff, my post had nothing directed toward the failure of the Florida on duty SRO, my post was strictly a series of suggestions on security detail. And the comment on becoming complacent would be in line with keeping the job from becoming boring or everyday routine for officers who probably would not like being there everyday of their career. Officers who on a daily basis have to be ready tactically in their normal course of duty might be better candidates to do security type detail than SRO types that are there for a multitude of other reasons.
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:22 PM
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I have been reading what all of you have said and have to reply here. I have quite a bit of experience in this area and am an avid shooter. Many things are not being taken into consideration and there is a huge variance on what is being asked. The heart of what everyone is saying is protect the kids. However this problem is much more than just schools. It’s businesses, and events as well. So while my response will be long bear with me I’d like to point out some misconceptions as well as some solutions that are viable.

First thing To stop this is prevention. In almost every case the shooter was disconnected from the school, an outcast isolated from others and had mental health issues. Solution...relationships. Think about it, who did you learn the most from when you were in school? The teacher or coach you had the best relationship with. Positive supportive relationships are the key to a strong learning environment. This should be the primary focus of all schools and their staff. This is well within the skill set of the people in the schools and more emphasis needs to be put on this than is currently being done in many of our nations schools. Secondly schools need to have a process to track and suppourt kids who struggle. Kids who are missing school, dooing poorly academically or gettting into trouble in and out of school are huge red flags that the kid and or the family unit needs help. This is a system that is easily done just takes some effort on the schools part and a little training on how to help these kids. Yet schools don’t do this like they should. Then when their are mental health issues that they can’t deal with they should be referred to outside agencies for mental health and it should be a coordinated effort between schools, children’s services, mental health providers and when needed law enforcement, not all of them working in isolation and lacking communication.

Next area is the structure itself. Do you know when the last person died in a fire in a school? 1958 as best I could tell from my research. What happend then? They changed the building codes and started practicing drills more frequently and this process has been done over and over to the point now in terms of a fire you would almost have to intentionally try to get hurt in a school fire. The structure, alarms, HVAC, electrical, entrances, exits, hallways, communications systems in stairwells and elevators along with automated suppression systems cost millions of dollars. Thus resulting in no deaths in 60 years. How many have died in shootings since then? Then schools practice fire drills almost every single month if not more.

Why are there not more reinforced doors, windows and better alarm systems in schools for this? The process now is a threat comes on campus. A person finally realizes it, in many systems someone has to contact the office, who then contacts the administrator who then has to get to the PA system and announce a Lockdown. Then 911 is called. Best case sceneriao I’d say that takes 1 to 2 minutes.

Most shootings are over in 2 to 4 minutes. So we have to have a way to alert police, fire, ambulance, and hospitals immediately without all those steps. That time means lives. Lots of them, and that has all been for the most part untrained shooters. Schools and businesses need to have alarm systems that will do this as well as a way to communicate if they are safe, need help location of the threat/alarm etc. so that first responders are not comming into the situation blind.

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:35 PM
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The next thing are the drills themselves. Most schools do 10 or so fire drills a year and 2 or so intruder drills a year. I’ve been involved in countless “lockdowns” where their was a real threat in the area and 3 actual incidents where SWAT responded an one actual shooting. Do you know how many fires??? One electrical fire that burned for about 3minutes that I put out well before the fire department arrived. So...why are we putting all this emphasis on fire drills when the likelihood of a school shooter or intruder is way more likely than a fire????

We need to do more intruder drills. The drills should be done during class time, passing periods, before school, after school, during assemblies and sporting events.

So same logic here. In 1958 a bunch of people got together and decided they needed to do something so people wouldent die in a fire. What did they do, well not put fire departments in schools, or firemen in every school, or outlaw fires or put extinguishers in the hands of teachers or make teachers into fire response teams. They changed the structure, gave people more time and a safe place to be as well as created an alert system that got the fire department their as fast as possible. We need to stay away from the politics on both sides and make good decisions that will result in positive changes that will fix the problem.

The real problem is time....time is what we have to find. More time for the people to be safe and faster response time for first responders and teacher students and students getting into a safe place quicker.

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:50 PM
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So finally arming teachers. Let’s think about what a school is and many have illuded to it. They are large area full of people. While I agree a pistol is better than nothing, let’s just think about that for a minute.

I am a better shot that most I shoot with and this last week I was at a competition where we had a 25yd shot. Draw, 6 shots had to be under 6 seconds par time. I made 6 alpha in 5 seconds. No one else in the match got 6 alpha and some missed totally. These are guys and girls who practice and shoot competition with no one shooting back. In a school hallway, gym or cafeteria, 25 yards would be close.

I guarantee I would not have been able to do that if I were being shot at. Not to mention the other problem with handguns is they are really totally inadequate to stop a threat. The overwhelming of people shot with a handgun survive. Increase that distance, and the power of the average handgun decreases drastically. Then add in there will be many people around that if you miss would mean an innocent person being hit. Bad idea.

Then let's take this a bit further. The trained police officer with a gun and body armor did not respond and it looks like many of his colleagues may not of either. This actually happens much more than people want to admit. When faced with a life threatening situation it happens to our police officers and military pretty regularly. I know everyone thinks they would rise to the occasion, but until you are in the situation you really don’t know. These are the men and women who are employed to do this, train regularly and are constantly working on their skills. Yet they still didn’t respond. I’m not trying to beat up on these guys, just point out the fact.

Teachers spend their time doing lesson plans, learning about teaching practices, getting their masters degree in education, coaching sports, raising their own kids. When are they supposed to do all this training and even if they do they will be better prepared to a fight or flight situation than a police officer???

Last edited by Angus46; 02-25-2018 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:04 PM
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Now I will admit did I want to have a gun in the situations I was involved in? Yes I did. Never felt so naked. However I also realize that when we want to make a solution to a problem it needs to work in all situations.

Not every school would have someone or a group of people who even are comfortable with a gun let alone proficient enough to use them in either self defense or in a search/engage type of role. Hired security? Unlikely. I don’t think the guy who gets paid 15 dollars an hour is going to be the one to do this either

No what is needed is better management of time. Faster response by the school and first responders with improved alarm systems and structures required by code much like we do with fire code that will increase the saftey of those inside.

Then for those schools that may be well away from help, rural schools for example. The local school board may want to think about the options they have and determine what best to do to keep their kids and staff safe and respond.

If a schools would choose do this, they should consider locked carbines equipped with low power scopes and frangiable rounds along with tatical vests that would identify them to police arriving on the scene. Carrying a pistol is totally inadequate for the type of situations and distances involved in most schools, and does bring with it some other issues.

I personally don’t think this is a good option, however I also realize that in some areas of our country help can be a long way away. In that case I don’t think anyone should prohibit the people in those areas from ensuring they are able to stay safe. Some states do allow local schools to develop their own police forces. However, I’m not aware of any that have taken it to that level. Their are lots of liabilities involved that most school districts don’t seem willing to take on.

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Old 02-26-2018, 12:47 AM
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No what is needed is better management of time. Faster response by the school and first responders with improved alarm systems and structures required by code much like we do with fire code that will increase the saftey of those inside.
"Faster", HOW?

Unless they're coming via transporter or TARDIS, a wouldbe murderer is always going to have PLENTY of time to kill people.

I've never been put on hold by my M1911. I can't say the same thing about 911.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:49 AM
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I guess a copy of this should be given to every parent of a school student in the country...............so there is no misunderstanding!

If I recall the US Supreme Court case ...it's been a long long time.... the police are not legally obligated to provide protection and not legally liable (damages) if they are unable to prevent a crime.
From what I have read here it seems the officer resigned after he was suspended pending dismissal proceedings.

If he hadnít it could have made an interesting employment court case.

As to the OP.

It seems that Texas has a policy of 20% of teachers carrying firearms in state schools and is approaching that level.

Ohio has an active ďteacher carrying firearmsĒ training industry that teachers from other states, including California, attend. It is considered work time, paid for by the local schools that employ them. It was featured on one of our TV channels evening news hour a month or so back.

Not every teacher will want to carry. Not every school board will want teachers carrying. And many, many parents will object to teachers carrying.

Some teachers will carry contrary to the rules/laws in any event.

I seem to recall one school shooting a few years ago stopped early on by a school employee who had just taken off his lawfully CCW pistol to lock it in the car in the school car park.

As for gun free zones, I thought that lesson had been learnt after the pre WWII events in Germany.

As to what gun to carry, the one you are familiar with, can shoot accurately and practice with regularly.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:51 AM
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I don't see why my suggestion of "Target Hardening" was ridiculed by the next poster, but that's his opinion.

It might surprise some to know that there is such a thing as security by design - schools, offices and other buildings don't always have to be architectural masterpieces. Safety can be designed into a structure. Nor do they need to be wide open killing fields.

As to my reference to Israel, I offered that suggestion as an example of a place where they have had success in that program - I know they are a country under siege, that doesn't change the fact that their plans work.

Where is this crazy idea coming from that ALL TEACHERS will need to be armed? It is an idea offered as an option - as so eloquently put by one poster above, when he is in his locked classroom, with the students in a corner and the assailant enters- you want to have something other than a book to throw at him. No clearing hallways, no searching, simply a last stand and some chance of survival as an armed, concealed carrying citizen.

Furthermore, many posts are now getting into tactics, weaponry, etc. These things will probably continue to happen in our damaged society, there is no guarantee that the next one will have a AR15 or anything like that - Virginia Tech was handguns, for one example, again the idea of a teachers choosing to be armed, would allow that teacher to make a stand in their classroom, when cornered, not doing a Rambo act throughout the campus.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:53 AM
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I know everyone thinks they would rise to the occasion, but until you are in the situation you really donít know.
I know how I'm going to respond if I don't have the means of defending myself: I'm going to bleed out after getting shot trying to neutralize the threat by any means possible.

NOBODY has the right to impose that on me. If they try, they're accomplices before the fact.

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Teachers spend their time doing lesson plans, learning about teaching practices, getting their masters degree in education, coaching sports, raising their own kids. When are they supposed to do all this training and even if they do they will be better prepared to a fight or flight situation than a police officer???
I expect armed teachers to suppress the gunman until one of them or a cop can maneuver into position to eliminate him as a threat.

I don't expect them to storm Pointe du Hoc.

Are you saying that NO teachers already have concealed carry credentials and NONE of them is willing to defend him or herself and students?
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