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Old 02-24-2018, 12:53 AM
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Default Some thoughts about armed teachers ...

The recent events surrounding the tragic shooting at MSDHS in Parkland, FL and the renewed dialogue about arming teachers has gotten me thinking, and I welcome your sharing your opinions.

In the years after 9/11 and prior to my retirement due to injury induced disabilities, I was viewed by my school's resource officers as their immediate backup in the event of an armed confrontation due to my competition experience. In looking back, my professional responsibility was with the students that were assigned to my class ... as such, I would have been derelict in my duties if I left my students to "hunt" an armed intruder. As such, I have been asking myself what sidearm would I want (given the legal opportunity to carry in school) to carry on my person that would be:
a) easily concealed,
b) would not print and would not lend itself to "flashing" students, and
c) could be expected to provide near target accuracy at 20 yards or more?

In my classroom, the distance from my desk to the door would be at least 12 yards, from the back diagonal corner about 15 yards. I would not want to contemplate engaging a threat through a classroom window.

Perhaps it is the target shooter in me, but I wouldn't want to train on a Q target, I would want something more demanding like a reduced B27. Considering the number of innocent people within the field of fire, I would want something that could consistently deliver 3" groups at 25 yards (give or take) with ample power to neutralize a threat. While adrenaline would be running rampant, I can see the need for deliberate aimed fire.

If you were a teacher and found yourself in the unenviable position of defending your students from an armed intruder under a deep on-body concealed carry, what handgun would you depend upon for not only your life, but the lives of your students?

I would like to know your choice and your rationale! Thank you.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:11 AM
richbuff richbuff is offline
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S&W .40 Shield. Underwood .40 ammo is perfect for such a situation. No need for lower or higher power cartridge. I would also carry spare magazines.

I worked for four years at a secure facility for extreme at risk teen girls. Perimeter doors were kept locked. The environment was very tense; always on edge. Qualified professional staff only, yet turnover was very high. All staff received 8 hours of Emergency Safety Response training every four months. Staff were unarmed, and the police were called frequently. All of the students were court ordered, no private referrals.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:20 AM
BillyMagg BillyMagg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
The recent events surrounding the tragic shooting at MSDHS in Parkland, FL and the renewed dialogue about arming teachers has gotten me thinking, and I welcome your sharing your opinions.

In the years after 9/11 and prior to my retirement due to injury induced disabilities, I was viewed by my school's resource officers as their immediate backup in the event of an armed confrontation due to my competition experience. In looking back, my professional responsibility was with the students that were assigned to my class ... as such, I would have been derelict in my duties if I left my students to "hunt" an armed intruder. As such, I have been asking myself what sidearm would I want (given the legal opportunity to carry in school) to carry on my person that would be:
a) easily concealed,
b) would not print and would not lend itself to "flashing" students, and
c) could be expected to provide near target accuracy at 20 yards or more?

In my classroom, the distance from my desk to the door would be at least 12 yards, from the back diagonal corner about 15 yards. I would not want to contemplate engaging a threat through a classroom window.

Perhaps it is the target shooter in me, but I wouldn't want to train on a Q target, I would want something more demanding like a reduced B27. Considering the number of innocent people within the field of fire, I would want something that could consistently deliver 3" groups at 25 yards (give or take) with ample power to neutralize a threat. While adrenaline would be running rampant, I can see the need for deliberate aimed fire.

If you were a teacher and found yourself in the unenviable position of defending your students from an armed intruder under a deep on-body concealed carry, what handgun would you depend upon for not only your life, but the lives of your students?

I would like to know your choice and your rationale! Thank you.
I'd prolly carry an M&P .40, with a couple of extra mags,,, very sad to hear about the resource officer,,, but as rich says, those situations get very tense.

I worked with DD Adults, and we had a few folks that would require restraints and occasionally we did call the cops,, we were all trained to handle those types of situations, and yes, I did get hit a few times, and once had the little finger of my right hand bent back and tendons damaged.. LOL

but I'd have to say some of the teachers and administrators are scarier than the students???
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:04 AM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is online now
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I’ll be the contrarian. The best pistol for a teacher in the classroom is no pistol. We need some type of armed police presence in schools, just not the teachers or administrators. Too much to go wrong.

We already have teachers breaking up fights in schools. Happens a lot, particularly in inner city high schools. Now we’re going to inject a teacher carrying a gun into that? In the chaos of a school shooting, how will the police id the shooter from an armed teacher? Loading and unloading at school? Negligent discharges at school?

People seem to be “grasping at straws” for solutions because the people that can (lawmakers) are not addressing the real issue. A realistic, fair way to keep weapons away from mentally unstable people.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:36 AM
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I'm in before the lock!

By the way, many teachers and administrators do not want firearms in or around school property, regardless of training. Teacher's unions are generally opposed to the concept of armed teachers. I do not see the concept of armed teachers going any further than making sensational headlines for news rags, tv, radio, and the internet.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:56 AM
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Every teacher doesn't need to be armed....... not even most. Maybe not any.

IMO a major part of the problem is the idea of "Gun Free Zones" aka Schools............which create an easy target.

A lot of these shooters kill some or all of their family...... but that won't bring them the fame and recognition they seek before ending their own lives. They need a higher body count.... a news event. So why do we advertise our schools as easy targets.

A guy called into a radio show yesterday...... he was a Twp Commissioner or some such............ the "City Hall" didn't have enough space..... so they set up the police in dedicated substations in the schools or on the campuses...... business as usual. Not just a SRO but a whole dept coming and going.... roll call, paperwork, Detectives.

In my "Burb of the Burgh" the High School and Junior High campuses are contiguous to the Twp park, Community Center, Twp offices and Police Dept...... so in addition to a SRO ( Police Sgt/ with a cruiser parked outside) there are always Police "less than a mile" away.... and cop cars coming and going by the two schools.

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Old 02-24-2018, 08:57 AM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is offline
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I work in a school now and do not see it happening in most areas. Too much to go wrong. Complaints from students “he asked me to put my phone away and I felt threatened because he had a gun”. Breaking up fights? Not me. Law requires me to call the SRO, and that’s all. I have never seen administration back up a teacher when complaints from parents come in and lawyers get involved.

It is MY experience that SRO’s are generally do nothing cops who want weekends off. This 33 year vet who cowardly stayed outside had been an SRO for 25 years. That tells me something. So putting cops at schools is certainly not a bad idea, but no solution.

How about we untie the hands of cops, school officials, social workers, and doctors and allow these nut jobs to be forcibly removed without the ACLU getting involved? 39 visits by the police and nothing done. Multiple suspensions and nothing done. Kid found with ammunition and weapons on campus, not to mention assaults, and the SRO didn’t arrest, which would have prevented him from buyin that weapon in a gun store. Right after the shooting, kids interviewed said when it happened, they knew it was him. And nothing done.

Or we can have a town hall where gun owners get painted as murderers while the Sheriff, whose own officers were at this kids house 39 times, and at least 4 of his own officers stood outside while the carnage went on, gets to roast the NRA spokesperson.

There’s no solution for any of this that will ever fly. I think gun owners are screwed. My kids won’t experience the shooting sports like I do.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:12 AM
Geronimo Jim Geronimo Jim is offline
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Where in the world has common sense gone? I want to be
able to defend myself. I carry 24/7. No one around me knows
I carry. People who know nothing about guns have opinions
but they don't know what they are taking about. Common
sense! Be able to defend yourself Teacher or janitor. Up to
them.

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Old 02-24-2018, 09:23 AM
silversnake silversnake is offline
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I'm a teacher and I love to see so many people telling me I don't "need" to be armed. Do I tell you how to protect yourself at your job?

No, I've never had to break up a fight, nor have I ever "loaded and unloaded" my carry pistol while out and about.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:33 AM
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Post one school is trying it

Well near here in “Mayberry” in at least one school teachers and staff have been armed since I believe the article states 2016 and as I recall when they took that stance for the reasons of this topic.

The school is every bit of 20 minutes away from law enforcement. You’ll ask why so far, it is in farming community that is one of the earliest in our county with a few small stores and agra businesses that support our farmers who rely on them to do their job to feed a hungry nation.

And my thoughts would ring with many others, upgrade doors and windows at these centers of education at least on the ground floor levels as well as a metal detector at specific ground entrances otherwise you do not enter the building. Others will argue that metal detectors won’t work, but it is a deterrent and shame on the school district that doesn’t keep up with the maintenance of these devices. As always, if the football field needs new grass there would be money for that, new electric write on boards in the classrooms at many thousands of dollars each no problem, and on and on and on.

Please read the article.

terry

School staff armed at Bright Local in Highland County - Times Gazette
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:54 AM
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My thoughts on this.

Teachers are people like everybody else. Some believe in the 2nd as much as everybody else who does, some don't.

Let those who believe be armed on their work. And the next attempt of a mass shooting in a school may very well end up differently.

Better to have a gun and not need it, than to need it not have it.

All things considered, it's still better to be judged by twelve than be carried by six.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:58 AM
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Well to put politics aside for a moment I’ll comment on the OPs question. If I was an armed teacher my first concern upon hearing gunshots would be to either barricade my students from the shooting or to help them evade the shooter. Job 1 is student safety. Any handgun would be a poor defense against someone armed with an AR15.

I’m sure there are some teachers out there who choose to discreetly carry in public schools and I support that, but the idea of “arming teachers” like some sort of government mandate, is absurd and is not a step forward.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:02 AM
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I've instructed several CCW classes. I've observed a few police qualifications. There is a very large percentage of the people I have seen That I Would Not want 'protecting' my grandchildren.

However, If they know what they are doing, and are Proficient with a firearm, and can hit what they are aiming at,, I'm all for it..

To answer the OP question, a firearm that I was very proficent with. With a rounds that would not over penetrate . Probably a 9mm with a lighter weight HP bullet .. Maybe a 38 Spl. with 125 or 135 HP's.
I've also been testing some 45 acp HP ammo that opens up nicely and doesn't seem to over penetrate.

Last edited by old&slow; 02-24-2018 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadmike View Post
Any handgun would be a poor defense against someone armed with an AR15.

.
If you get a chance read up on "Alice" drills being taught in many schools.... Alert, Lockdown, Inform, Counter, Evacuate.....

in the Counter part they "teach" the concept of swarming the shooter with makeshift weapons....

I guess I'd rather have a handgun than a pair of round nose scissors..
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:15 AM
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I’m 71 and carry a 340PD, or a Taurus .380 in retirement and neither would be much good in a situation like the FL school shooting w/o being very close to the shooter. That said my choice would be a Glock 17 w/two spare mags. Difficult to hide but I have to find a way.

After LEO retirement I taught in a four year college criminal justice program, first and second year students, and I carried my J frame against school rules. It could get me fired but not arrested so I didn’t care. It was pocket carried in a holster so no one knew, and I’d do it again.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:18 AM
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If we are going to allow teachers to " carry" we need to do away with all of the printing and concealment nonsense and let them carry an effective firearm than can getbthebjob done with an armed probabaly heavily armed subject shooting everything that moves .In that circumstance if I have to settle on a handgun I want my 629 loaded with 240 grain jacketed hollow points at 1000 fps I would much prefer a rifle maybe my m1a but I guess that would be pushing the limits a little too much . But why couldn't a classroom have a carbine locked in it with the teachers having access and training .
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:34 AM
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The OP asked what firearm to carry. I say a Glock 19 or choose your brand around the same size. Easy to conceal, easy to draw and accurate. It has a 15 +1 capacity and is easy reloaded. Arming teachers is not a new concept Israel has been doing it effectively for years.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:40 AM
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Mother Superior with a gun? Oh I hope not.

As Cadmike and kbm6893 have stated, all of this is more of a knee jerk reaction to the shootings at the schools.

I think the underlying questions is, "Has the U.S. broken down so bad, that law and order has been reduced to the Law of the first, or the one who can shoot first and the best?

To be sure, the 2nd says we have the right to arm ourselves, to protect our homes, or ourselves from harm.

But are we turning into a bunch of vigilantes, where we are going to take over the duties of law enforcement?

Guns in schools, how is this going to fly in say California, Oregon, Washington, New York?

Is not the old adage, A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

For me, arming teachers. that's a No Go. Their first and foremost duty is to teach.


Please, someone tell me, since the shooting from the hotel in Las Vegas, are all of the house keepers supposed to be armed too? or station a armed person on each floor of the hotel?


Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

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Old 02-24-2018, 10:48 AM
silversnake silversnake is offline
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WuzzFuzz, what's the rationale for denying a teacher their right to be armed? Does the Bill of Rights not apply to educators too?
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:53 AM
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Well I think we can all agree that declaring Schools gun free zones hasn't worked out so well.

Having one SRO on a 45 acre campus with >3000 students ..... didn't keep those students safe.

Here in the Burbs of the Burgh we had a student stab 21 students and facility a couple of years ago... a student at Ohio State (IIRC) drove his car into a group of students..... didn't some guy attack 4 cops in NY with an hatchet?? ..... so "guns" are not the problem just one of many tools that can be used.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&WsRsweet View Post
If we are going to allow teachers to " carry" we need to do away with all of the printing and concealment nonsense and let them carry an effective firearm than can getbthebjob done with an armed probabaly heavily armed subject shooting everything that moves .In that circumstance if I have to settle on a handgun I want my 629 loaded with 240 grain jacketed hollow points at 1000 fps I would much prefer a rifle maybe my m1a but I guess that would be pushing the limits a little too much . But why couldn't a classroom have a carbine locked in it with the teachers having access and training .
My guess is that if schools stop to be considered a "gun free" area. "Mass shooting Busyness" will drift somewhere else.
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:02 AM
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I'm a retired teacher. If allowed I would have been armed. In that case, Concealment would have been an upmost concern. I would have probably pocket carried a good 380 in a good holster. Or maybe a j frame. Something bigger would be nice but I can't imagine anyone knowing for sure that I was armed.

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Old 02-24-2018, 11:06 AM
WuzzFuzz WuzzFuzz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silversnake View Post
WuzzFuzz, what's the rationale for denying a teacher their right to be armed? Does the Bill of Rights not apply to educators too?
Didn't say they couldn't, just said IMO it's not a good idea.

But I know, I know, my opinion is like everyone having a (^&(&(*&.... nose. Everyone has one.


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Old 02-24-2018, 11:17 AM
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In my Country there used to be mandatory military service. Most my teachers had been Officers in the armed forces. Most of those who were under 40 were veteran of the almost never ending colonial war that started when I was 3 years old and ended 3 years before I myself went into service at the age of 20, curiously one year before our legal age to own a firearm at 21.

I guess times have changed.

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Old 02-24-2018, 11:21 AM
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The right to defend oneself should be their decision. If a teacher wants to carry and can pass a proper training and evaluation process showing they are responsible enough and mentally fit enough, then more power to them.

The reason I say this, is because if anyone studies Supreme Court precedents, you will find out that law enforcement has long been held to have NO constitutional obligation to protect us.

That throws a wrench into those who argue for calling the cops and waiting. A perfect example was the deputy on scene in FL who would not engage cause he was scared. Perfectly legal for him to do so.

Now, teachers/faculty actually have more of an obligation to protect students because of the "temporary guardian" status they take.

The best thing to do before deciding any legislation or voting, is to study, study, study and learn how to make the constitution work for us. Like how the Dick Act of 1902/03 is pretty much another strike in our favor when it comes to 2A, and we might need to pull that card soon.

As for what gun I would use if teacher, it be a hi-cap compact like my PX4.

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Old 02-24-2018, 11:24 AM
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But are we turning into a bunch of vigilantes, where we are going to take over the duties of law enforcement?
The duty of law enforcement is to investigate and detain, not protect. The officer that didn't go in that school after the shooter did his job by the letter. There is no legal recourse against him as there is no legal requirement that he protect (or in this instance, save) those children. Reality.
Vigilantes disregard law and become police, judge and jury. A armed citizen shooting back defensively is a... citizen!
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:26 AM
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Now they are reporting that not only did the SRO not go in ...... 3 or 4 other
responding (?) officers stayed outside.

What a mess!!!!

Edit: Cello..... I think one of the duties of a SROs is to "protect" the students. otherwise why have them on campus. The Police don't have a duty to provide individuals with protection.... but to fail to act while people are being murdered is a whole different thing.

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Old 02-24-2018, 11:30 AM
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Now they are reporting that not only did the SRO not go in ...... 3 or 4 other
responding (?) officers stayed outside.

What a mess!!!!
My guess is they were wainting to hear if there was any return fire. So they could go in and arrest those violating the "gun free" zone.
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:36 AM
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OP, I had this discussion the other day with a friend and we came to an agreement that if possible, we would want a PCC or SBR folded up in a legit backpack. When in between classes, we would walk up and down the halls to generally monitor the school with our inconspicuous backpacks on. Just like I don't want to be caught with a knife at a pistol fight, I also don't want to be caught with a pistol at a rifle fight.

If I HAD to only carry a pistol it would be an RMR'd Glock 17 or Beretta 92 at 5:30 with a quality tuckable IWB holster, button down, tie, jacket and pants. Spare magazines (minimum 2) in either a belly band or similar IWB mag holder.
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:04 PM
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Now they are reporting that not only did the SRO not go in ...... 3 or 4 other
responding (?) officers stayed outside.

What a mess!!!!

Edit: Cello..... I think one of the duties of a SROs is to "protect" the students. otherwise why have them on campus. The Police don't have a duty to provide individuals with protection.... but to fail to act while people are being murdered is a whole different thing.
A police officer witnessing a murder in progress has no obligation to protect the one being murdered. There is no legal obligation to stop the murder. The obligation is to detain the murderer and give witness at trial. A SRO is not there to protect the children.
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:11 PM
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A police officer witnessing a murder in progress has no obligation to protect the one being murdered. There is no legal obligation to stop the murder. The obligation is to detain the murderer and give witness at trial. A SRO is not there to protect the children.
All this time I thought the motto was "to protect and serve". Guess I've been wrong.
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:18 PM
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A police officer witnessing a murder in progress has no obligation to protect the one being murdered. There is no legal obligation to stop the murder. The obligation is to detain the murderer and give witness at trial. A SRO is not there to protect the children.
I guess a copy of this should be given to every parent of a school student in the country...............so there is no misunderstanding!

If I recall the US Supreme Court case ...it's been a long long time.... the police are not legally obligated to provide protection and not legally liable (damages) if they are unable to prevent a crime.

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Old 02-24-2018, 12:19 PM
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I live in Utah where concealed carry by concealed firearm permit holders in public schools, colleges and universities has been allowed for about 25 years. I'm glad my children and grand children go to school here because there are teachers, administrator, employees, parents and students over 18 do carry in schools here. School administrators are not allowed to ask if a teacher is carrying; concealed is concealed.

As far as I know no teacher has shot a student, no student has take a teachers firearm. I know of only one negligent discharge at a school...a teacher damaged a toilet. That is a better NG record than the police.

I have worked in the retail firearms business for years. When a teacher buys a firearm for concealed carry they seem to go through the same questions anyone else goes through when making the buying...can I conceal it, safely operate the firearm and shoot it with reasonable accuracy. Some buy small revolvers but most these days opt for a concealable semi automatic in .380 through .45 acp.

I have on occasion discussed with teaching friends what there plan was in a mass shooting case. To a person their answer was the same: protect their students, lock the door, shelter in place and find a protected spot where they could cover the door. Pretty much just what I would do in my on home if someone breaks in. I'll leave clearing my house to the police.
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:21 PM
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I have to agree with Old Cop and max503.....concealed means concealed. My thoughts are that if more people than you and your wife know you are carrying, then you are doing it wrong.
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:28 PM
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I think that if a teacher is capable and knows their way around with guns and if they agree to do so then they should be allowed to carry. Also take some further training in protective shooting situations.
But it should be up to them....
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by iPac View Post
The right to defend oneself should be their decision. If a teacher wants to carry and can pass a proper training and evaluation process showing they are responsible enough and mentally fit enough, then more power to them.

The reason I say this, is because if anyone studies Supreme Court precedents, you will find out that law enforcement has long been held to have NO constitutional obligation to protect us.

That throws a wrench into those who argue for calling the cops and waiting. A perfect example was the deputy on scene in FL who would not engage cause he was scared. Perfectly legal for him to do so.
I've been hearing a lot of stuff on TV about the police officer / officers and their actions at the Florida school shooting.

Personally I do not think anyone knows how they are going to react in an emergency. If you have never been in a situlation like that ,, how are you going to react? I would like to think training, practice , attitude would kick in. But , I don't really think anybody knows until it happens.

I do not know all the details about the officers, and do not wish to condemn someone without knowing the facts.
( or even condemn them if I did know the facts. they have to live with what they did and that's the worst thing I can think of)

Nothing against police officers ,, I think they have a hard job , and most of the time do a good job..
But like the old saying,, "when seconds count the police are only minutes away.."

And like iPac stated, the police are not required to protect you ,, lots of folks found that out during the LA riots several years ago..

Last edited by old&slow; 02-24-2018 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:53 PM
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Default Do I think teachers should be armed?

NO..!!

Time to be a fencing contractor, and metal detector/xray machine supplier.

One point of entry to every school, and security manning equipment.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:00 PM
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To answer the question of the OP I would say Glock 19 would be a good choice.

If you want to see some good information about programs to teach educators firearms for carry in the schools take a look at TDI Ohio's website. They have developed a program, and teach it in Ohio and I believe Colorado (?) for teachers to be armed in the schools.

Their program is called the FASTER program. Not advocating one way or another but would say it has been around for a few years.

In regard to a duty to protect it is correct that the police do not have a duty to protect the individual. This stems from a Supreme Court case out of Colorado involving a restraining order and i believe it was Castle Rock vs. Gonzales.

But active shooter training trains you to take whatever shows up the fastest and get inside and confront the shooter. From what I have seen that is the fastest way to end/neutralize the threat.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:30 PM
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Well, I have some thoughts. I am 38 years old and I have spent 90% of my adult life in the military, as a law enforcement officer, or as a nuclear security officer. A back injury made me realize I should no longer work and wrestle turds on the street anymore. I am fortunate to have a LE position with a very low probability of getting into a scuffle. During my career I have seen numerous good officers decide they no longer wanted to deal with the courts, the turds, the administration, and all of the other **** LE deals with on a daily basis. Likewise, I have seen service members with valuable gunfighting skills leave the service to just disappear into the midst of civilian life, and some get great jobs and some get minimum wage jobs. And of course some do not have jobs.

I have a close friend who left LE, because he said he would forever be stuck in patrol, to become a teacher.

Why can’t we have LE commissioned teachers? At one point we heard of a troops to teachers program. I have not heard of that program being mentioned in years. Why can’t we have a program for respected, and trustworthy, former LE officers to transition into LE commissioned teachers? The reality is I could probably leave LE today and get a teaching job on a waiver. My BS is in criminal justice, but my entire first year of college before the Army was towards a science degree. My father-in-law retired from the school system’s central office, and my mother-in-law is retiring within the year from the school system.

I propose having an incentive for people who are aging out of the military and LE to transition into LE commissioned educators.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
The recent events surrounding the tragic shooting at MSDHS in Parkland, FL and the renewed dialogue about arming teachers has gotten me thinking, and I welcome your sharing your opinions.

In the years after 9/11 and prior to my retirement due to injury induced disabilities, I was viewed by my school's resource officers as their immediate backup in the event of an armed confrontation due to my competition experience. In looking back, my professional responsibility was with the students that were assigned to my class ... as such, I would have been derelict in my duties if I left my students to "hunt" an armed intruder. As such, I have been asking myself what sidearm would I want (given the legal opportunity to carry in school) to carry on my person that would be:
a) easily concealed,
b) would not print and would not lend itself to "flashing" students, and
c) could be expected to provide near target accuracy at 20 yards or more?

In my classroom, the distance from my desk to the door would be at least 12 yards, from the back diagonal corner about 15 yards. I would not want to contemplate engaging a threat through a classroom window.

Perhaps it is the target shooter in me, but I wouldn't want to train on a Q target, I would want something more demanding like a reduced B27. Considering the number of innocent people within the field of fire, I would want something that could consistently deliver 3" groups at 25 yards (give or take) with ample power to neutralize a threat. While adrenaline would be running rampant, I can see the need for deliberate aimed fire.

If you were a teacher and found yourself in the unenviable position of defending your students from an armed intruder under a deep on-body concealed carry, what handgun would you depend upon for not only your life, but the lives of your students?

I would like to know your choice and your rationale! Thank you.
I WOULD CARRY MY 2 1/2" M686+, ALONG WITH TWO 7 ROUND SPEED STRIPS, GIVING ME 21 ROUNDS OF SPEER,.38SPL+P, GOLD DOT--A JHP MADE SPECIFICALLY FOR SHORT BARRELS. THIS WEAPON WAS TREATED TO A "DELUXE ACTION JOB" BY MASTER GUNSMITH, DENNY RICHARD @ SAND BURR GUN RANCH. ITS SLICKER THAN SNOTS......

AS ONE OF MY EDC WEAPONS, AND A GUN THAT I SHOOT DURING EVERY RANGE SESSION, I AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH, AND HAVE GREAT CONFIDENCE IN SHOOTING IT. WITH IT, I AM MORE THAN CAPABLE OF THE LEVEL OF ACCURACY, EVEN UNDER STRESS, THAN THE OP DESCRIBES......
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:35 PM
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Someone please tell me why, in the years prior to say the 1980's, 70's 60's 50's that shootings in school was not a problem. Young boys had guns back then too. What has changed? That is the question to be answered, and repaired.

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Old 02-24-2018, 01:38 PM
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I think it is harder to find a more concealable gun than a Shield that shoots like a full-size range gun.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:45 PM
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...As far as I know no teacher has shot a student, no student has take a teachers firearm. I know of only one negligent discharge at a school...a teacher damaged a toilet. That is a better NG record than the police...
There is a video out there on the Interwebs where a police officer is in a classroom, explaining that he is the only person in the room competent to handle the Glock in his hand. He then proceedes to accidentally shoot himself in the leg holstering it.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:47 PM
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Thank you to all that have shared your opinions, I truly do appreciate your views and positions. Please, allow me to add a bit more ...

I taught for just shy of 28 years. For 26 of those years, the school I taught in was exclusively a ground level school, where every classroom was accessible from not only the hallway, but also through the glass window exterior wall. I never felt comfortable during a lock down drill, knowing that glass windows were our only protection from a shooter outside the school. I was quite serious when I shared that our RSO saw me as his backup.

I am now on the school board of a similar style school, and we are now facing the question of school security, like every other school across the nation. Being in NJ, I know that you will never see a teacher legally permitted to carry in a school. But we still need to evaluate and enhance our security.

The school that I am on the BOE of is located about 15 miles from our designated State Police barracks, we are amongst a group of communities that derive their police protection from the State. Response time is about 20 minutes. We are in an economically impoverished rural area of the state, with declining enrollment, increasing unemployment and property foreclosures, and the threat of legalized recreational Marijuana being held over our heads. In many respects, our students are in a lose-lose situation.

Building upgrades might help to offer some of the security enhancements that we need. The presence of armed police or security may not be as dependable as hoped.

Your comments have given me some avenues to contemplate. Thank you!
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:51 PM
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I think doing away with the gun free zones is a good start, no sense in designating soft target zones. Secondly, if a school employee is capable of meeting the requirements of the states carry laws then they should have the choice of what and if they want to carry.

My employer had a no guns on property until corporate went threw some active shooter training, they have since reversed that policy and we can now have guns in our vehicles on property, but we are not allowed to carry while at work.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:52 PM
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IMO if the perp had any caliber round fired at him that he would leave. That said, I'd choose a double stack 9mm.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
There is a video out there on the Interwebs where a police officer is in a classroom, explaining that he is the only person in the room competent to handle the Glock in his hand. He then proceedes to accidentally shoot himself in the leg holstering it.
Saw that ,, LMAO ..

Lots of folks out there that think they know what they are talking about ,,,, few actually do..
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:59 PM
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My son and DIL are educators, both know which direction is up.

Here in the county where I'm camped...
The superintendent of schools and his wife, which is a teacher,
along with other facility members and bus drivers have attended CCDW classes after Sandy Hook.

Let's just say...That we not say anything.


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Old 02-24-2018, 02:07 PM
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I'm in favor of armed teachers/staff in schools under some limited conditions:

1. The teachers are vetted with the goal of deciding if they are emotionally stable enough to be trusted with the responsibility. Some kind of military or LE background would be a big plus in passing the vetting.

2. They have familiarity with guns, and are willing to spend time and effort for training. And I don't mean the usual 4 hour CCW class. Real training in dealing with active shooters.

3. There is an ongoing refresher course program, and some kind of regular meetings to assess threats and keep carriers updated on emergency procedures.

4. There is a qualification program which shows some shooting skills. Not the minimal qualification for some CCWs which Stevie Wonder could pass.

5. The program was not presented as a constitutional right. People who don't pass the vetting program, can't sue the school.

6. If a teacher/staff member exposes or displays the gun in an inappropriate way, or in an unsafe way, they lose their right to carry on campus -- no appeal.

With this kind of tight regulation, it would be OK, IMO and useful for staff/teachers to carry.

But just giving the right to carry in classrooms to all teachers and staff with no training, or minimal training, would be going too far and likely do more harm than good.

Last edited by Cal44; 03-08-2018 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:07 PM
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At least five years ago, the elementary school here in Utah where my daughter-in-law teaches fourth grade determined that they would pick up the cost for every teacher who wanted to obtain a concealed weapons permit.

When the principal approached my daughter-in-law and asked her if she wanted to get her permit, she just smiled, patted her purse and said, "Thanks, but no need. I already have it."

Her dad was in law enforcement and she grew up shooting. Of course, her students don't know that she carries, but if I were one of her students, I'd feel very secure in her knowledge and ability to use firearms.

Granted, there are some faculty members who wouldn't feel comfortable with a firearm...and shouldn't be forced to carry one for good reason.

On the other hand, there are some, like my daughter-in-law, who have taken classes, have shot extensively, have their permit, and are very capable handling a gun. So, in my opinion, if that's what it takes to keep our kids safe, more power to them.
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