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  #51  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:49 AM
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I won't post it here, but comedian Chris Rock gave us all some great tips a few years ago about interacting with the police. Seems applicable to this situation too.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
Just keep your hands up and follow orders ....don't worry about "printing". If you are bothered about this this type scenario happening to you ....you might want to rethink your decision to carry a gun.
As the OP just let me say, I have carried a legal weapon since the early 1970s and years back a NRA instructor for the course my county makes all applicants take before they will issue a permit.

Best bet I have more carry time than most of the people on this forum and I live in the extremely anti gun peoples republic of NY. I understand about printing and my carry piece and where its carried is pretty well thought out. Many people in the city area see a gun/think they saw a gun they will call it in and many city type police are not what you can call gun friendly.

I'm not bothered by possible problems but I'm curious and rest assured things like that could catch any of us when where out and about. I threw this out for discussion and possibly a heads up as I never saw anything like this mention before.
Consider it a public service announcement!
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
While there "may' be an other(s) "concealed weapon holder" present..... there "will" be police at some point. I think the OP was asking about that interaction and how to handle it........ without getting shot.
Your right, at SOME POINT cops will show up.
And when they do great.
That's what we pay them to do.
It's a job they can quit if it's too stressful.
Not like enlisting for 4 or more years in the military.
I had HS friends who joined the police force to avoid the draft.

What I disagree with is the if you don't immediately respond to Leo commands after they get in you can expect to be taken to the ground.

Not everyone's hearing is perfect before guns fire, and afterwards I doubt it improves.

So don't use the "high state of alert" as a excuse for abusing citizens defending themselves, family and strangers.
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:35 PM
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Default Oh, please.

Promptly obey any lawful/necessary command(s) and you won't have to be put to the ground.

You are correct, LEO's are civilians...no better than any other civilians...BUT they have a job to do. And that is a job many do not want or have the ability to perform.

Be safe.

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Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
Ken158
Being on high alert is no reason for a LEO to abuse any citizen by putting them to the ground.
If they can't handle the stress before, during and after training get out of law enforcement.

It's not like being in the military.
LEO'S are civilians.
No better than any city worker.
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:47 PM
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I'm with NYLakesider...this is a great topic that I don't remember being discussed before.........................most threads involve "shoot it out or run" or " can you do 20 yds head shots"

I've noticed that none of the LEOs have responded to my questions in Post 11.... about their procedures for dealing with civilians w/ Concealed Carry weapons.

Like NYLakesider I've had a cc permit since the mid-70s and was an NRA instructor in my 20s. My Dad was a Cop (and I grew up within a bunch of cops) and I'm a Lawyer; For about 10 years I was responsible for a 30 person armed Hospital/Health System Security Dept. with whom I trained and qualified.

If we all knew the other's expectations.... which in this case is " what would the police like us to do about letting them know we are armed with a concealed weapon"...things would be less confusing..... it's why they involve students, teachers and Administrators in "Active Shooter and ALICE Drills"..... so they know what to do and not do.

My best guess is ...... it's something like ... " treat anyone with a weapon like a potential shooter/accessory; disarm them, cuff them, put them in the back of a car .............. we will sort it out later!!".................. which more likely than not will be hours not minutes. I can understand an live with that.......just don't want there to be any misunderstandings that get someone shot.

I remember the Sheriff in Fla.'s comment ; he stated his Deputy should have gone in and "killed the shooter".... not "engage"; "kill"..... I don't think any of us want to get caught in the middle of those rules of engagement.

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  #56  
Old 03-10-2018, 06:12 PM
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One need not reconsider the fact that they carry a gun unless it is a function of not being serious about it, but the way you carry it might need to be reconsidered.

"Slammed to the ground": one needs to understand that barring some really odd circumstance, the overwhelming majority of people taken to the ground with vigor are there because they did not comply with prior direction. BT, DT. Compliance is not discretionary under the Constitutional case law or the statutes of most if not all states. Delay is not acceptable under any police training - because anything other than immediate compliance is a very big danger signal. If the delay is perceptible, it is too long. Blank stares, questions, and other stuff are not consistent with the safety of the officers or the uninvolved folks present, and ARE consistent with violent assaultive behavior. For those of us with crummy joints, it will mean moving as fast as possible in a manner consistent with the direction - I have bad knees and I'm still going to what I can to comply with all the speed I can muster.

Cops cannot take chances, legally or ethically; safety violations by cops should result in pretty serious discipline. Military ROE do not translate to the Constitutional standard, and overcoming that training is one of the hardest things most cops I know who come from the military have had to do. A friend of mine is a retired JAG with an LE legal background, and his commentary on the ignorance of most military trainers and command officers is scathing. I helped with a brief for an infantry officer wrong fully convicted in part due to that kind of silliness (the only defense type stuff I have done in years) - many officers from O-3 to at least O-6 in both JAG and the combat arms should have been court-martialed and given BCDs/DDs after release from confinement, and hopefully will be when the matter is over.

Can't raise one hand all the way? At least keep it as far from your body as possible, with the hand OPEN and the palm toward the cops. Crutch/case? Same - remember that the cops will hopefully (not always) have a decent description of the offender; most will not be 75 YOs with a cane.

If there is conversation with an officer (which will vary by the level of chaos, number of cops, and lots of other things) regarding the circumstances, comply with the directions FIRST, and then explain after you are controlled as the officer wants that you are lawfully armed. Describe the location of the firearm and any features of the holster WITHOUT MOVING, especially not toward it, and likewise, the location of your ID.

Understand this: offenders come in all sizes, ages, shapes, pigments, etc. As I say to recruits in our local reserve academies - you should generally disregard pigment, plumbing, and preference other than as needed as descriptors on a report, because (socially undesirable people) come in all varieties. I have met and dealt with violent and dangerous criminals in the street and in court of all ages, body types, sex, etc. I mean from 11 to mid-70s, male and female. Understand this, too: just because YOU know that you are the most wonderful person on the planet does not mean that anyone else knows it, and cops cannot assume it. "Nice" cops are the ones most likely to be assaulted and killed, a fact shown by research 25+ years ago and never contradicted (and I had a supervisor at the time who matched that, and was in fact nearly killed as a result).

Force is ugly; effective force is really ugly; that does not make it wrong - just ugly. American LE uses force very rarely, and lethal force even more rarely, and not nearly enough - the current fabricated discourse is completely unrealistic. As I said in another string, there is a really good book on Terry you can find by googling "Terry stop" with "Doug Mitchell". As for use of force generally by LE, the leading text is clearly Urey W. Patrick and John C. Hall, “In Defense of Self and Others -- issues, facts & fallacies: The realities of law enforcement's use of deadly force” (3rd edition, 2017) anyone interested needs to buy and read it.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:42 AM
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Default BACK AT MY OLD ALMA MATER.

We had a K9 trooper that loved to hassle college boys. He'd make us get out of the vehicle & lay face down in the slush/ice of sometimes sub zero NH winters with his dog growling inches from your face. NOT the time/place for "I know my rights" and am not gonna do it.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
...
For the Officers responding here;have your Departments developed protocols for you to follow? Or is there "a gap" in your training..... that could leave you making it up as you go... and possibly be left hanging in the wind by your command/political structure. A lawyer representing his/her client; would have a duty to his client, to exploit a perceived training gap.

...
You mentioned that no one had responded to this question. It made no difference if I responded, but since you asked ...

I am long since retired, and live in a different state, so have no sworn obligations or current department training rules.

In the day, you were put face down spread eagle on the ground until things were sorted out. You did not dare move, argue, or protest, lest you be arrested out of general principle.
There was also no CC unless you were LE or Judicial.

Things have changed, and the LEO's ability to respond is under much more scrutiny. I am happy to not be in service today.
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Old 03-11-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
OR slamming a senior to the ground.

YES, That aint right, BUT who said we live in a perfect world? Sometimes things just is what they is, & you have to deal with the way they ARE, not how they SHOULD BE.
Maybe police training has changed, but the officers I know who were trained in the 90s were trained to escalate to control a situation. In the situation we’re discussing I would assume they would escalate and disarm me forcefully because they don’t know if I’m the bad guy -C.C. license or not.
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Old 03-11-2018, 12:18 PM
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Why not just tell one of the LE officers you are a LAC with a permit to CC. I doubt they are going to shoot you for that.
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Old 03-11-2018, 01:31 PM
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As long as you’re not wearing a $5 nylon holster you should be ok.
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Old 03-11-2018, 02:07 PM
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Do what you're told to the best of your ability, follow the law about notifying LEO's that you're carrying if you end up in a situation where you have to, don't try to make an extended explanation about why you can't assume a particular position (you'll only end up in that position faster), and most of all, be as polite, cooperative, and nonconfrontational as possible. In an active shooter mass evacuation, you don't get a pre prone position medical exam, and there's no holding area for people that can't comply with directions . . .
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Old 03-11-2018, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BAM-BAM :
...
For the Officers responding here; have your Departments developed protocols for you to follow? Or is there "a gap" in your training..... that could leave you making it up as you go... and possibly be left hanging in the wind by your command/political structure. A lawyer representing his/her client; would have a duty to his client, to exploit a perceived training gap.
*
Control of a scene is control of a scene. Control of a person is control of a person, and how that is done is driven (in simple terms) by the nature of the event and the actions of the suspect. As noted above, this whole "deescalation" concept is not sound as a matter of both law and tactics. Cops always get to prevail; always get to control the matter; always get to use more force than the suspect - in other words, "escalate". SUSPECTS are mandated by both Constitutional case law and statutory law to comply - they have to deescalate.

Departments are developing (should have been long done by now) training to deal with the lawful carry of firearms, but some have been dumb. This is something that should be addressed by BRUTAL discipline of command personnel, but rarely is. Remember that in a circumstance such as being discussed here, in which there has allegedly or actually been unlawful violence, the amount of control that will be "reasonable", the Constitutional test for a seizure under the 4th Amendment is pretty high, and likely to be foreign to decent people. That doesn't make it wrong.

I also consider the context. I am almost never without at least one gun. I am legal in doing so. What I expect for a response in Washington, at least until the moonbats and apologists for the criminal feral finish destroying the state, is not what I expect in CA (a place I only go to visit/assist a friend with a legal matter and to visit my favorite dog rescue). CA and IL are bad enough. If for some reason I completely lost my mind and went to some really awful place like MD or NJ, I am sure the context would be even different.
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  #64  
Old 03-11-2018, 03:36 PM
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If we all knew the other's expectations.... which in this case is " what would the police like us to do about letting them know we are armed with a concealed weapon"...things would be less confusing..... it's why they involve students, teachers and Administrators in "Active Shooter and ALICE Drills"..... so they know what to do and not do.

My best guess is ...... it's something like ... " treat anyone with a weapon like a potential shooter/accessory; disarm them, cuff them, put them in the back of a car .............. we will sort it out later!!".................. which more likely than not will be hours not minutes. I can understand an live with that.......just don't want there to be any misunderstandings that get someone shot.

I remember the Sheriff in Fla.'s comment ; he stated his Deputy should have gone in and "killed the shooter".... not "engage"; "kill"..... I don't think any of us want to get caught in the middle of those rules of engagement.


I think NYLakesiders original post was directed at my question in the first paragraph above....... I know it's the basic question I would like to see answered..... to make yours and my life safer!

From the response so far ..... it seems to be version of "don't ask don't tell" keep your mouth shut and do what you are told is the best course of action......don't stir the pot by volunteering information.

Our only duty in Pa. is to "produce the license for inspection" "upon lawful demand of an LEO"

Never heard if all +3000 of the students and teachers in Fla. were being patted down or stripped searched......doubt it or it would have made the news.......
heck the Shooter in Fla..... walked away from a "Active Shooter" scene .....dropped his rifle in the school...... but did he have another weapon (hand gun,knife or a sawed-off shotgun from Dicks ) when he was arrested? He was reported to have multiple weapons at home.

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Old 03-14-2018, 05:34 PM
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Whatever the laws are in your state that specify if/when you need to inform a LEO. In my state I only have to admit to it if they ask about weapons. If you're about to get searched it would be wise to advise so you don't startle them and end up being thrown to the ground.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:30 PM
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I'm curious, every response that I've read here assumes a situation where the concealed carrier is holstered and just going out with the crowd. So, I have to ask, why are we carrying? I mean, in every one of the recent situations, there was only one shooter or if there were two, they weren't well coordinated. Why aren't you dealing with the situation?

I mean, we're talking like we're just there with our guns in the holster doing nothing. In all of these situations we would know what's going on and at least have a clue about where the bad guy is. Deal with him.

I'm the first to tell people to take care of themselves first and not to get into a situation you don't have to. But here we have a known situation where you might be the difference between a couple people being injured and many being killed.

If you're dealing with the bad guy, you'll have your gun out.

I find this a far more likely situation for a concealed carrier than being in a crowd of people being escorted out.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:57 AM
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Why aren't you dealing with the situation?
Because if it doesn't impact me or mine, I'm out. Shooter tries to keep me or mine from leaving and living, he suffers the consequences. Otherwise, I'm not here to save the world. All that "I'm gonna be the hero" stuff is fine, until somebody gets to tell my wife and family why I'm not coming home . . .
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:33 AM
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During my Narcotic undercover days I looked and dressed pretty rough. However I had a weapon and badge on sometimes. Twice I was "leveled down on" by other LEO that didn't know my identity. It is a scary feeling.

One time as I checked out a vehicle passenger side with a Remington 870 a backup officer arrived and only saw my long hair and a shotgun. He shouted drop the gun which I did immediately. Always regreted the pavement scratch on my shotgun but glad I didn't get shot.

All I can say is stay calm and do what the Officer says. He/she is in a very stressful sitution at the moment
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:41 AM
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During my Narcotic undercover days I looked and dressed pretty rough. However I had a weapon and badge on sometimes. Twice I was "leveled down on" by other LEO that didn't know my identity. It is a scary feeling.

One time as I checked out a vehicle passenger side with a Remington 870 a backup officer arrived and only saw my long hair and a shotgun. He shouted drop the gun which I did immediately. Always regreted the pavement scratch on my shotgun but glad I didn't get shot.

All I can say is stay calm and do what the Officer says. He/she is in a very stressful sitution at the moment
Amen, my brother.

Add a language barrier and/or mixed agency to that and, yes sir, it can get very tight.
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:58 AM
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[QUOTE=Rastoff;139965091]I'm curious, every response that I've read here assumes a situation where the concealed carrier is holstered and just going out with the crowd. So, I have to ask, why are we carrying? I mean, in every one of the recent situations, there was only one shooter or if there were two, they weren't well coordinated. Why aren't you dealing with the situation?



I think from the OPs question and my responses ..... the shooting part is over.......I don't want to be standing around with a gun in my hand when I have "first contact" with responding police officers.....so if possible I'm going to transition back to 'Gray man" status ASAP.
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:36 AM
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So, carrying a Hi-Point and placing it in a students backpack before exiting would not be an option????
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:09 AM
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As the OP I was asking about what would happen if you were carrying and were escorted out of a building after/during a real bad event. Things are morphing a bit here!

I made it clear you were not involved. Lets say it was a shopping center with shots fired, you might be down a few stores from the incident. The place went into lock-down and when the cops came you were escorted out. (Hands up single file, like you see on TV.) I asked what would happen if your gun printed or for some reason you were patted down.

For me if not printing or not patted down I would leave if allowed to. If I was discovered to have a weapon I would expect some problems till it was proved out I was a "Good Guy" and had nothing to do with the incident.

If I was going to be wanded or patted down after a serious incident went down I would put my hands as far as I could from my weapon (behind neck fingers interlocked) and gently inform the officer I have a legal weapon (not use the word gun) on me, your in charge, and I'm not moving til told to. After that its up to the cop/s and rest assured I will comply at a 100%
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:20 PM
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So, carrying a Hi-Point and placing it in a students backpack before exiting would not be an option????
Drop it in a trash can. Larry
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Old 03-25-2018, 11:50 AM
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Default Other Concealed Carriers on Site

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
While there "may' be an other(s) "concealed weapon holder" present..... there "will" be police at some point. I think the OP was asking about that interaction and how to handle it........ without getting shot.
An excellent point that hadn't been considered. Which is why we must be careful engaging in the first place. Secondly, even if the police declare the 'perp' is under control or 'disengaged', there is always the possibility of a second or third suspect still on site. They can't take a chance that there were no other shooters on site. There always the threat of multi- shooters that participated. We have to be certain that LEOs aren't already engaged in the first place before we engage.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:56 PM
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Assuming an opportunity to do so, one may be better off informing the first available LEO that one is carrying. I say that only because the thought of one of the terrified bystanders screaming "that guy has a gun" is rife with extremely negative possible outcomes.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:40 PM
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If I had the misfortune to be in this situation, and hadn't had any reason to draw my stuff, I would walk out with my hands up and head to my car.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
Keep your hands up, keep your hands away from anywhere near the gun for sure. Expect to end up at gunpoint (most likely on the ground), handcuffed, and staying that way until disarmed and your lawful status is confirmed. Depending on the level of chaos at the scene, this could be 5-60 minutes.
Yeah, what he said.

Sharing this concern, several other retired LEOs and I started carrying “retired” badges clipped to our belts or shoulder rigs, near our weapons, just for such an occasion. Not full proof, but it will hopefully make them look twice.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:08 PM
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A good reason to be sure you aren't printing or showing the gun with your hands in such a position.

If you are cooperative and don't make sudden moves, I highly doubt you will become shot by a responding officer during a pat down. They know people CCW.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:27 PM
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I've got a 'Hidden Agenda' all season jacket/windbreaker with pull down panels..........

I guess I'll go back to wearing it when in town.

.
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:31 PM
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I would have hands up, tell the officers I am a retired police officer and I have a revolver in my right pocket.
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:13 PM
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Exclamation IT HAPPENED, just like I thought it would!

The U Tube incident happened just like I described in my first post. (OP)


They evacuated the building and the people were escorted out under LEO guards. THEN there were SEARCHES for weapons. It could happen to anyone of us on here, totally innocent not involved in any way but carrying concealed. What is going to happen under those circumstances? Of course as this was California the odds of a person legally carrying a CCW are rather a moot point.

Some on here said searches were not done in other cases, but I have seen people going out before and knew it could happen again.


Think about this folks, it could easily happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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