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Old 03-09-2018, 11:00 AM
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Default Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!

Watching the news when they evacuate schools you always see the people inside running out with their hands in the air under LEO guidance. I understand why, no problem there.

Well that same scenario also happens when a non-school building has to be cleared of innocents. Those building could be stores, banks, shopping centers & airports before the restricted area. (We had the biggest shopping center in my area with a guarded evacuation happen a couple years ago and that was how it went) Hands up, in single file they got the people out of harmís way

Now for my point. What happens when a legally armed person, not involved in any way to the situation at hand has to exit the building under police guard? Your hands are up or behind your head, a good chance under that circumstances your weapon will print. Or it does not print but you are personally checked and your carry piece is discovered. Lots of things could happen, quite possibly very fast. LEOs naturally will be on a adrenaline high.

With the crew, (both LEOs and legally armed civilians) we have here hopefully we can get some interesting answers to a situation that easily could happen!
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:25 AM
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In to follow; with great interest....................... after Las Vegas; old white guys are not immune
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:35 AM
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Keep your hands up, keep your hands away from anywhere near the gun for sure. Expect to end up at gunpoint (most likely on the ground), handcuffed, and staying that way until disarmed and your lawful status is confirmed. Depending on the level of chaos at the scene, this could be 5-60 minutes.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:09 PM
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They slam my old creaky bones on the ground, somebody's getting sued. LOL! I don't pay my Chiropractor to keep my bones straight for nuthin. I can accidently bump a shoulder into a wall (cutting a corner too quick) and pain shoots through my back. I can't imagine getting tackled by a few "pumped up" LEO's! Dang, that hurts thinking about it.

I never considered that situation before, but you're right. I only reach up to the higher shelves at the grocery with my left hand. I guess I'd have to just bend the elbows, hold my palms outward, pin my elbows to my side and run (no, can't do that either) waddle out the door.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:15 PM
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Keep your hands up, keep your hands away from anywhere near the gun for sure. Expect to end up at gunpoint (most likely on the ground), handcuffed, and staying that way until disarmed and your lawful status is confirmed. Depending on the level of chaos at the scene, this could be 5-60 minutes.
That is what to expect. If that presents a problem, it is a risk to consider before carrying.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:31 PM
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Under those circumstances, a person can expect to be "separated from the herd", disarmed and verified that they were not part of the problem. Bear in mind that the responding LEO's will not know who the good guys and bad guys are that early in the incident. Criminals change clothes, many I dealt with over the years wore two sets of pants or pants over shorts just for this purpose.

As it was said above, keep your hands away from the gun and cooperate. Please don't reach for the gun to disarm yourself unless told to do so.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:45 PM
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Both post 3 and post 6 above are basically my views on what to expect. Not to contaminant I waited to see what other members would have to say on this subject. Your definitely a armed suspect till proved otherwise if your weapon is spotted or you inform the officers!

If that scenario comes to pass it will indeed be a "sticky wicket" as our British friends would say. Hopefully will never have to be proved out! As I have been carrying since the 70s I have a couple plains made out on what I will do or not do assuming I have the chance to be in some sort of control. This is just another.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:54 PM
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Life in general is made up of risks. The topic of this thread is just one more. I presume if one has chosen to CCW then you have already considered and come to terms with the biggest risk which is relying on someone else for your protection.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Goldstar225 View Post
Criminals change clothes, many I dealt with over the years wore two sets of pants or pants over shorts just for this purpose.
Hope to never find myself in such a situation. But, if it ever happens to me, I bet I'll wish to be wearing an additional pair of clean pants.

And I'm not a criminal.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:01 PM
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What is posted above is a good explanation of what will most likely happen. LEO responders will be in a high alert frame of mind and doing anything other then instructed will be met with accordingly. One poster hinted that he may sue if he gets taken to the ground, might as well get his lawyer on retainer and expect nothing in return. A court will consider reasonable reaction from LEO based on the situation at hand in the attempt to safeguard the public while looking for perpetrators.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:03 PM
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Well; on the plus side, if you ever have to deal NYlakesider"s situation ........ you've at least made it out alive !!!!!



Not to be argumentative;this is a very thought provoking thread...........................some thoughts:

These types of situation are full of SNAFU's just waiting to happen...............the rules don't go away or get suspended just because the crowd is bigger.......

Note: my Dad was a Police Officer and involved in at least one shootout (with Bank robbers)..... bottom line I/we want everyone to go home safely to their families.

I agree the ''reasonable man" standard will apply to everyone conduct, police and civilian alike....... what a jury considers reasonable may vary between a 20 year old , me a fit 64 year old; and some here who are well into their 70s..... " I don't think "slamming [his] creaky old bones on the ground" (the Poster's words not mine) to the point of causing injury (and damages which is what will trigger a civil suit)would not, in most cases, be found reasonable unless the person is resisting.

As a First Responder one may also need to think about folks that may have limited vision due to lost glasses or contacts....... or maybe more likely are hearing impaired; or simply frozen by fear; causing one to not be immediately responsive to verbal or hand directions.

Adrenalin and fear on all parties involved will most likely have a negative impact on the situation. Most likely, IMO the question of "was it reasonable" will get before the jury....... well after the heat of the moment has passed............................

In Pa. IIRC about 7% of the population (over 21) have "Licences to carry". If the event/incident is not in a gun free zone...... as a Police Officer (which I'm not)I should have an expectation that one or more legally armed civilians may/will be present.

Given that the presence of a legally armed citizen is foreseeable. For the Officers responding here;have your Departments developed protocols for you to follow? Or is there "a gap" in your training..... that could leave you making it up as you go... and possibly be left hanging in the wind by your command/political structure. A lawyer representing his/her client; would have a duty to his client, to exploit a perceived training gap.

Edit: most civilians ( except for students with active shooter/ALICE Training) won't have any training in what to do or how to respond;

Finally in this day and age; watch out for cameras....... I was surprised at the number of student videos that came out of Fla during and after the shooting on the 14th

Be safe out there! and lets hope we never find ourselves in that situation.

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Old 03-09-2018, 02:17 PM
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So, if you are told to evacuate, should you just run out hands up with the other innocents and say nothing, or should you tell one of the officers you are carrying?

I'm assuming, for this question, your weapon is well concealed and doesn't print.
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:45 PM
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Cal44........ that's the problem.....you can't run out yelling........ "I've got a gun...I've got a gun!!"


Question for the Officers present..... how are you trained to respond if you were caught in this situation.... armed and off duty.

Times have changed; but IIRC my Dad (Police Capt)always carried an ID card much like my Pa CC licence/permit in his wallet...... but didn't always carry a badge or a "Creds" case.

LOL maybe one of those " Concealed Carry badges" would come in handy after all !!!!!!

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Old 03-09-2018, 03:30 PM
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Ken158
Being on high alert is no reason for a LEO to abuse any citizen by putting them to the ground.
If they can't handle the stress before, during and after training get out of law enforcement.

It's not like being in the military.
LEO'S are civilians.
No better than any city worker.
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Old 03-09-2018, 03:38 PM
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Default DON'T KEEP IT A SECRET, SPEAK UP.

While not yelling, "I have a gun". I think I'd let whoever know in a calm voice (hopefully) "I am a licensed concealed carrier, my weapon is ..., my license is ..., both rotator cuffs are bad, please use 2 sets of handcuffs. & DON'T TAZE ME BRO.
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Old 03-09-2018, 03:39 PM
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for the LEO's here :

I have a shoulder .. left one . I am not able to raise my shoulder above my head .. so right arm up and left one a half mast sort of ..

what would a LEO do in a situation like that?? many of us old folks have joint problems ...
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Old 03-09-2018, 03:51 PM
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This thread just got me motivated to order a 2 ID Window Bi-fold wallet.....(my old wallet is falling apart anyway)...off Amazon.


one clear pocket for my drivers licence and one for my PA "License to Carry Firearms" ....... I can flip the "L to C " up and out..... holding it up and out above my head........................still allows me to display my Drivers licence without exposing my CC.

not perfect but ..... should give pause and have CC licence clearly visible to officers......and if they think it's Police ID (from a distance)...... so much the better I'm thinking.

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Old 03-09-2018, 04:05 PM
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<--------that be me......

I carry a 45 appendix, can raise hands above head, place hands on top or back of head etc..etc..etc...never print....not for a second.....

what are you people wearing ???????????????
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:16 PM
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<--------that be me......

I carry a 45 appendix, can raise hands above head, place hands on top or back of head etc..etc..etc...never print....not for a second.....

what are you people wearing ???????????????
I think the point, as I see it, is:

First;you are not just going to keep walking, eventually you will most likely have to interact with the Police........what happens if they instruct you to "pull your covering garment up and turn around" or pull it away from your body. In the Fla. incident students were instructed to drop their back-packs , while covered by Officers with ARs, before proceeding ......

2nd in my case, a lot of the year I wear an open front ''Shirt", LL Bean flannel lined in Spring and Fall or "fishing style" shirt (Summer) over a t-shirt..... if it's windy I won't be able to button or use my elbows to lock the shirt to my side.

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Old 03-09-2018, 04:19 PM
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Talking DO WHAT HE SAY, DO WHAT HE SAY!

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This thread just got me motivated to order a 2 ID Window Bi-fold wallet.....(my old wallet is falling apart anyway)...off Amazon.


one clear pocket for my drivers licence and one for my PA "License to Carry Firearms" ....... I can flip the "L to C " up and out..... holding it up and out above my head........................still allows me to display my Drivers licence without exposing my CC.

not perfect but ..... should give pause and have CC licence clearly visible to officers......and if they think it's Police ID (from a distance)...... so much the better I'm thinking.
If told to put your hands up & make no sudden moves, I'd go with that, as best you can. Going into a pocket for your CCL BEFORE you are told to do so,
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:23 PM
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If told to put your hands up & make no sudden moves, I'd go with that, as best you can. Going into a pocket for your CCL BEFORE you are told to do so,

I'd come out of the building with it in hand....... have it out and in hand ASAP if I'm carrying....... unless that hand has my 3913 in it... then it's gun in holster.... exposed ID/ Licence!


Come to think about it; my gun is behind my right hip ...... wallet left rear pocket..... I can do both at once;........ and still chew gum!

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Old 03-09-2018, 04:29 PM
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Default I hope that TELL me....

I hope they tell me to get on the ground and I will instantly comply. If they slam me like they do some people it's going to hurt. A LOT.
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:32 PM
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If you watch the people exiting, you will see some with their hands down. It gets tiring, they are frightened, etc. Its any sudden moves that will get their attention. So, hold your hands up and or away from your body, so you don't stand out, you don't look like a bad guy. When asked or if required by law, then inform. I would at earliest time, but too soon and they'll march you out much more aggressively.
That is one of the issues I have with teachers carrying, 1st responders are told, "person with a gun" and they come around the corner and the teacher is carrying, looking for the bad guy. Cops see a bad guy with a gun. Proper training of a teacher or CCW person is to protect in place with students and then wait for police to respond. If in that situation, I would inform police I was there as security for the students, and I was armed.
If exiting and you have some health issues, just do what they say and move slow. If you move slow and lay down, arms outstretched you should be fine, although there have been cases that police don't respond (I am thinking of the hotel where the police officer is screaming at the guy, move, don't move, move and then they shot him... BUT, the vast majority (vast) of police will keep calm, if you are calm or as best as you can be.

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Old 03-09-2018, 04:34 PM
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I think the point, as I see it, is:

First;you are not just going to keep walking, eventually you will most likely have to interact with the Police........what happens if they instruct you to "pull your covering garment up and turn around" or pull it away from your body. In the Fla. incident students were instructed to drop their back-packs , while covered by Officers with ARs, before proceeding ......

2nd in my case, a lot of the year I wear an open front ''Shirt", LL Bean flannel lined in Spring and Fall or "fishing style" shirt (Summer) over a t-shirt..... if it's windy I won't be able to button or use my elbows to lock the shirt to my side.
Same response in all situations...same as a traffic stop or any other encounter with LEO....."Officer by law I am informing you that I have a handgun on my person and a license to carry it"....then do as the officer instructs.......
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:34 PM
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I'd come out of the building with it in hand....... have it out and in hand ASAP if I'm carrying....... unless that hand has my 3913 in it... then it's gun in holster.... exposed ID/ Licence!

Come to think about it; my gun is behind my right hip ...... wallet left rear pocket..... I can do both at once;........ and still chew gum!
oh jesus no. Don't reach for anything until told to do so. Trying to pull out your wallet as the officer comes around the corner, they just see you reaching for something behind you!

And having ANYTHING already clutched in your hand and then shoving it out for them to see, is again bad
Do nothing until told or asked and then do it slow
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:39 PM
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Even in a "Gun Free Zone", simple possession of a weapon is not a permit to be shot by LEO.
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:54 PM
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Even in a "Gun Free Zone", simple possession of a weapon is not a permit to be shot by LEO.
Or manhandled to the ground.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:08 PM
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Or manhandled to the ground.
OK, the question of the moment and the later discussions of right/wrong are not relevant.

The question was what to expect, not how to sort it out in court or with investigators.

Expect to be treated as a potential unknown / danger until the officers know better.

DO NOT SAY "GUN". Firearm works fine in a discussion.

And if you get put to the ground and busted up in the process, sure, you may have rights in court, but once busted up, at least with my fragile cancer-ridden bones, I'll be hurting too badly to care about rights.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:24 PM
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oh jesus no. Don't reach for anything until told to do so. Trying to pull out your wallet as the officer comes around the corner, they just see you reaching for something behind you!

And having ANYTHING already clutched in your hand and then shoving it out for them to see, is again bad
Do nothing until told or asked and then do it slow
Agree......... sorry not making myself clear.....if as you describe and it would be safe to do so..... no officers around...... holster my weapon (if I ever drew it) have my ID not my gun in hand.......looks like a bi-fold credentials case ..... hands over my head

heck you just might find me kneeling ankles crossed , hands on top of my head forehead against a wall....... remember I'm "stuck with a gun"; with nervous cops with ARs coming my way........ believe me I don't want any misunderstanding......
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:30 PM
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No way am I exiting the building with the gun in my hand. Keep it holstered, and proceed to whatever safe zone is set up. It may then be or not be relevant to disclose your concealed carry firearm. Hands up as best you can as you exit, and under no circumstance am I touching or going near the gun.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
Even in a "Gun Free Zone", simple possession of a weapon is not a permit to be shot by LEO.
OR slamming a senior to the ground.

YES, That aint right, BUT who said we live in a perfect world? Sometimes things just is what they is, & you have to deal with the way they ARE, not how they SHOULD BE.

Last edited by nachogrande; 03-09-2018 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:03 PM
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Sometimes things just is what they is, & you have to deal with the way they ARE, not how they SHOULD BE.
So when the next school shooting is stopped by a student carrying his/her own "illegal" defensive weapon, they will be awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom?
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:23 PM
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I would put my badge on, prior to going out with my hands up.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:33 PM
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I would put my badge on, prior to going out with my hands up.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:38 PM
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... & DON'T TAZE ME BRO.
LOL!!!

I have a special problem. I'm old and fat, but with no *** (a sad family trait). If I put my hands up in the air too far or too fast, my pants fall down. Since I pocket carry, methinks I could end up in big trouble. Maybe I should start wearing suspenders.

Seriously, it's an interesting topic. Horrible situation, but an interesting topic. Hope I never find myself in that situation.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:54 PM
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If you watch the people exiting, you will see some with their hands down. It gets tiring, they are frightened, etc. Its any sudden moves that will get their attention. So, hold your hands up and or away from your body, so you don't stand out, you don't look like a bad guy. When asked or if required by law, then inform. I would at earliest time, but too soon and they'll march you out much more aggressively.
That is one of the issues I have with teachers carrying, 1st responders are told, "person with a gun" and they come around the corner and the teacher is carrying, looking for the bad guy. Cops see a bad guy with a gun. Proper training of a teacher or CCW person is to protect in place with students and then wait for police to respond. If in that situation, I would inform police I was there as security for the students, and I was armed.
If exiting and you have some health issues, just do what they say and move slow. If you move slow and lay down, arms outstretched you should be fine, although there have been cases that police don't respond (I am thinking of the hotel where the police officer is screaming at the guy, move, don't move, move and then they shot him... BUT, the vast majority (vast) of police will keep calm, if you are calm or as best as you can be.

Ed
You mean that wearing a bandana as a mask wouldn't be the right thing to do?

Heh heh, just kidding. That is good advice.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:57 PM
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Wow! What a conversation! We had a lawyer who represents the local PD at our monthly meeting last month. I believe it would depend on time and locale as to what you would have time to do. If we had the shooter down, we call shooter down, we then call 911 to let them know that the threat had been neutralized and explain what we were wearing.
This is a hot mess and you could be shot because you have a firearm and they are looking for a "bad guy" with a gun...you just happen to be a "good guy" with a gun. At this time they do not know that. Be safe, be careful! Do what they ask!! Do not let them get that 3913/3906/4566/.45 Shield! Oh, those are what I may have on me depending on the weather.
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:07 PM
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Default HUH???

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Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
So when the next school shooting is stopped by a student carrying his/her own "illegal" defensive weapon, they will be awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom?
There was a first time? NOT getting your point, nor what is has to do with the OP. What do medals have to do with anything? Coming out alive & unhurt, would be fine.
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:29 PM
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What is posted above is a good explanation of what will most likely happen. LEO responders will be in a high alert frame of mind and doing anything other then instructed will be met with accordingly. One poster hinted that he may sue if he gets taken to the ground, might as well get his lawyer on retainer and expect nothing in return. A court will consider reasonable reaction from LEO based on the situation at hand in the attempt to safeguard the public while looking for perpetrators.
And don't expect any sympathy to be rendered to a CC at this point, regardless of your innocence. It just ain't done. Especially by the 'Drive Through Media"
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:39 PM
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Yesterday police arrested a student at a local high school in Imperial, CA, about 18 miles from me. They haven't released all the information yet. Apparently some one tipped the police and several guns, ammo and explosives were found. The 'copy cats' are falling all over themselves it appears.
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:54 PM
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All you can do is inform you're licensed and carrying and just comply after that.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:06 PM
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Default So true......

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Originally Posted by .455_Hunter View Post
Even in a "Gun Free Zone", simple possession of a weapon is not a permit to be shot by LEO.
If something happens, even by accident, there's no going back to argue about it. These times are dangerous. When did we start to worry about getting shot by a policeman during a crime just because we are there?
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:14 PM
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Default Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!

I guess if they insist on BOTH HANDS in the air, I'll just stand there with my cane held high over my head (with both hands) and tell them if they want me to move, they can come pick up my happy um... self and carry me.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:22 PM
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Great Thread.
Thanks
Joe
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:24 PM
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Default JUST A WILD GUESS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvan34 View Post
Yesterday police arrested a student at a local high school in Imperial, CA, about 18 miles from me. They haven't released all the information yet. Apparently some one tipped the police and several guns, ammo and explosives were found. The 'copy cats' are falling all over themselves it appears.
That's one kid that WILL NOT be getting the Presidential medal of freedom.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:47 AM
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There's a lot of concerns of being shot by the police...

What about being shot by another concealed weapon holder if you both end up in an active shooter event in a place like a shopping mall? Chances are that person could have no training at all and no experience in high stress situations.

Last edited by TripLeader; 03-10-2018 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:24 AM
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There's a lot of "what ifs" to ponder. So many that you probably can't cover all of them, especially with the unknowns that will pop up.
I hope to not overthink it to the point of immobility, but instead, try to use extreme common sense and deliberation in everything I would do.
When LEO arrives, I'm going to try and see things through their eyes from that point on.
Or, I may just run out with everybody else and scream like a frightened baby!
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TripLeader View Post
There's a lot of concerns of being shot by the police...

What about being shot by another concealed weapon holder if you both end up in an active shooter event in a place like a shopping mall? Chances are that person could have no training at all and no experience in high stress situations.

While there "may' be an other(s) "concealed weapon holder" present..... there "will" be police at some point. I think the OP was asking about that interaction and how to handle it........ without getting shot.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:30 AM
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Default me too...

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Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
for the LEO's here :

I have a shoulder .. left one . I am not able to raise my shoulder above my head .. so right arm up and left one a half mast sort of ..

what would a LEO do in a situation like that?? many of us old folks have joint problems ...
I have the same situation with my left shoulder, and-I am a disabled veteran that has injuries that could cause my death if I were hand cuffed behind my back, or forced to the ground. I am also a big person who, evidently, has an intimidating affect on others that I cannot leave home. What is my best course of action? What is the first thing I should say to the first LEO I encounter? Thanks.

Last edited by amazingflapjack; 03-10-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:33 AM
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Just keep your hands up and follow orders ....don't worry about "printing". If you are bothered about this this type scenario happening to you ....you might want to rethink your decision to carry a gun.
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