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Old 03-14-2018, 03:06 PM
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Police shooting studies show that even trained law enforcement miss on average 80% of the shots fired. Put another way, the “hit rate” was only 20%. Of course the distance mattered with closer higher and further away lower. But if I remember the studies (NYC & Detroit) even 10 feet or less they still missed 60% of the time.

My take away is that people less exlerienced and trained than law enforcement officers will likely have no better results and most likely far worse results. So you may as well count that you will miss at least half (50%) of the shots fired. All the more reason to make damn sure you have no other alternative at your disposal before drawing and firing your weapon.

Automatic Physiological things occur which no human has control over. Adrenaline will be released which causes shaky hands etc. which will negatively affect accuracy of shooting as well as dexterity to reload. training is huge and will help to minimize messing up. But as seen in the studies of police shootings. The human biological effects are real and significant and cannot be overlooked. Even the best most highly trained individual is NOT immune from these real physiological responses.

A person may be able to shoot a fly off a cows rear end at 25 yards at the range. But when the **** hits the fan, they will be damned lucky To hit a human at 10 feet with 50% of the shots fired in the real world.

All the more reason if possible to train when out of breath and/or under stress.

One saying to remember: “You will only fight like you train.”

Training matters! And I know many people who carry frequently but never shoot 200 rounds a year! I encourage them that they really need to either get more training, or stop carrying.

So to the OP post. The most important thing is to know BOTH your own AND your guns limitations. If you choose to carry a 5 or 6 shot revolver, know that you must be close to your target As you may only hit the bad guy with 2 shots. And with shaky hands and a speed loader may be very difficult to accomplish. A magazine fed weapon hopefully decreases your need to have to do a reload. But smaller pocket pistols may only have 6 or 7 shots.

And even though you are in church, it is not a good idea to use the spray and pray method simply because you have 16 rounds in the gun or on your person.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Only problem with such studies is the avg LEO is NOT a gun person & only shoots 1-4x a year for quals, never practice. So I would expect them to miss a lot under stress.
Then take the trained & well practiced LEO or civ ccw, they will miss far less under the same stress. I get this all the time in competition when new LEO guys show up & start making excuses for their poor shooting. "It's diff when the bullets are coming back at you", they say. Yeah, like you will get better when that happens, Uh, no. If you can not do it on a range with only the timer & other eyes as stress, you will fail miserably when it is life or death.
As an instructor told me once, "you will be half as good in the fight as your worst day at the range". So putting that into perspective, if you suck the first cold stage of say an idpa match, you probably died in your gunfight. Training is great, but without the practice to achieve the skill to implement the training, you only have 50% of the problem solved & are relying almost exclusively on luck to save you, jmo.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:02 PM
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Outstanding !!
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:25 PM
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"you will be half as good in the fight as your worst day at the range.”

I think that is the best, simple and accurate synopsis I have heard. And backs up most of what was said above. And that is, carry what you are most confident and accurate with.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:01 PM
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Some have cited the LEO hit rate of 20% in a gunfight but having been in one I can give you my perspective. The bad guy I traded shots with was ducking down in the car and belly crawling across a dark parking lot. While not all of my shots hit the mark, the ones that missed hit the windshield where he was seconds before I fired, or the barracade he was behind before I was able to end the fight.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:40 PM
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I find it difficult to accept that one could be considered "irresponsible" because of the firearm they choose to carry.
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  #56  
Old 03-14-2018, 11:59 PM
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Another thought: All those US Secret Service agents carrying revolvers from the days of safeguarding President Lincoln during the Civil War to the attempted assassination of President Reagan; were they irresponsible or were they just using the best tools available to them?

In the Army I had no choice; I carried what was issued to me (M1911A-1 .45 caliber pistol). Most of my years as a cop I had little or no choice; the boss said to carry a Colt or S&W revolver, .38 Special or .357 magnum, 4" barrel, blued steel finish. I trained very hard with both, and continue to train and practice now (22 years after retirement), so I know that I am reasonably proficient with either type. I don't feel unarmed or irresponsible when carrying either type.

YMMV
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:45 AM
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Two points, if I may...

1. I've never been in a firefight where I had too much ammunition. You mention a semiauto with spare magazine. Why not speed loaders or speed strips with a revolver? I always carry extra ammunition in some form, either spare magazine or speed loader / speed strip. Are the chances slim to none that I'm actually going to need it? Yes. But I didn't survive this long playing the odds. I did it by being prepared, mentally, physically, and logistically, for virtually any realistic scenario.

2. A slow hit is always better than a fast miss. As others have mentioned, several different physiological changes occur during high stress situations. A firefight is a high stress situation. Part of being prepared for those changes is practice, practice, practice, and when you're tired of practicing, practice some more. If you can do so, the next time you shoot at the range, take a jog or brisk walk before shooting. Get your heart rate up and your breathing as well. It's amazing what just a little bit of stress will do to your ability to find and maintain a decent sight picture. Remember what that feels like, practice for it, and then practice for it some more. Yeah, it sucks, especially as we get older. Getting shot sucks worse.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:44 PM
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One thing I've noticed in 47 years shooting.

1. Old timers, by this I mean experienced, regardless of weapon took time for shot placement.

2. Young bucks with semi's all sprayed and prayed aka russian military doctine style when dealing with a CVN battle group.

I go to the range every lunch hour daily to put 50 rounds through my carry and BUG, and on weekends I fire on average 500 to 750 rounds, with a min of 200 ball and 50 carry rounds through my carry weapons. I see in the lanes next to me all the time young guys shooting semi auto's rapid fire, rounds going all over the target and commenting on how good they shoot. I on the other hand double tap, 2 center mass, 2 head. My targets are clear except for the holes in the center mass area and forehead and these young guys all find that amazing saying " wow man, you must have been shooting your whole life". While this is true, my shot placement is due to rigorous training with both revolvers and semi autos as you never know what you'll end up with. Another thing, I've noticed they never ever train weak hand, as if they'll never get shot in the gun arm. I practice strong side, weak side, and loading same.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:45 PM
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^^^ you are shooting over 6,000 rounds a year. And shoot daily. Of course with that proficiency and dedication and discipline the results show. And that is to be respected. Like I said I would be willing to bet 75% of the people who frequently carry if not EDC even come close to 500 rounds a year. You are shooting more than that in two weeks!

You are right that they dont have near the accuracy as someone of your caliber. But that is like comparing the free throw percentage of Air Jordan to your average joe six pack playground B-ball player.

Not saying that most people don't train enough. I would agree. But that is the reality.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:20 PM
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I survived three deadly force confrontations in 30 years, all w/my issued thirty-eight and it got the job done. Like others have said I had no choice in duty weapon but I did have a choice in how much range time I got in. I did not have access to our department range aside from semi annual qualification but I was able to find an old dump site and shoot there.
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:41 PM
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^^^ you are shooting over 6,000 rounds a year. And shoot daily. Of course with that proficiency and dedication and discipline the results show. And that is to be respected. Like I said I would be willing to bet 75% of the people who frequently carry if not EDC even come close to 500 rounds a year. You are shooting more than that in two weeks!

You are right that they dont have near the accuracy as someone of your caliber. But that is like comparing the free throw percentage of Air Jordan to your average joe six pack playground B-ball player.

Not saying that most people don't train enough. I would agree. But that is the reality.
Ok I'll say it, avg person that carries a gun, ccw or leo, is barely competent, much less capable. I shoot an idpa match almost every week. I run a sq of 10-15 shooters. I see at least one new shooter weekly. Many of these shooters are leo & ccw, most are just competent, can deliver aimed fire out to 15y but with zero speed.
It takes 10s of 1000s of rds a year to be a really good shooter, at high soeed then still 100s a month to maintain that high level. Maybe 15% of those carrying guns are in that upper teir skill level where they can deliver shots on demand every time, any time. Yes that takes time, money & dedication to get better everytime you are practicing.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:52 AM
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Practice,shoot it ,do drills with ,draw it. Talking on the web does not cut it. Use it,shoot it ,hit with it. I do not care what you use , I want good solid hits.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:26 AM
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I carry a p226 because it's what I am proficient with that I can also conceal.

I'm way more accurate with my m29 or my 7.5" saa but those aren't concealable and the quickest way to get crazy looks in public is to have a large frame revolvery on your hip. I've done it and didn't like the reactions I got. Now I know how well endowed females feel, "my eyes are up here buddy".

On the other hand I'm fully confident I can get aimed head shots with my carry gun at 15y and body shots out to at least 30. I can do the same at double those distances with the wheel guns.
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:55 AM
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Considering the odds of being involved in a defensive shooting and the fact that people with absolutely no training very often successfully defend themselves with firearms everyday in this country, I think most people interested only in self-defense would question the need for such extensive training that some are advocating.

You are much more likely to need to use unarmed skills in self-defense throughout your life and such skills are much harder to learn and effectively apply, but how many people put in the time and training or have the physical ability to do so.

I had exceptional natural ability in martial arts and trained at least 4 hours a day all through high school, so it wasn't a surprise to anyone when I was recruited for Olympic competition and then asked to participate in the UFC.

Self-defense was my stated primary goal and I loved to train and couldn't understand anyone not feeling the same way. I remember I lost a lot of students in the early days who viewed me as a fanatic and looking back they were absolutely right. These were everyday people coming to me wanting to learn some basic self-defense skills in a safe environment just in case and I didn't provide that for them. Looking back, I wasn't even really teaching self-defense, I was teaching street-fighting. There is a very big difference.

I think many defensive shooting instructors take things too far as well and are teaching from a military combat or law enforcement perspective rather than true self-defense. Again, there is a huge difference. Since we are talking security, I think law enforcement lessons apply to a much greater degree, but it is still very easy to carry things too far and lose perspective. An enthusiast loves to train, practice, shoot and compete all the time, but that doesn't mean everybody does or that it is necessary.
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingfool View Post
^^^ you are shooting over 6,000 rounds a year. And shoot daily. Of course with that proficiency and dedication and discipline the results show. And that is to be respected. Like I said I would be willing to bet 75% of the people who frequently carry if not EDC even come close to 500 rounds a year. You are shooting more than that in two weeks!

You are right that they dont have near the accuracy as someone of your caliber. But that is like comparing the free throw percentage of Air Jordan to your average joe six pack playground B-ball player.

Not saying that most people don't train enough. I would agree. But that is the reality.
IMHO, I think it's incumbent upon any and all concealed carriers to be more proficient than the average joe. I know it's expensive to shoot, but I also know, should you get into an altercation where deadly force is called on, then a lawyer will cost far more than practice ammo. That said, for me, if I am going to carry on the street, I want to be able to hit my target under any condition with the least amount of chance of a round going where I don't want it to go.

Were I Dictator extraordinaire, I would require all concealed carry holders to qualify using the USMC qualification course every 6 months with a min score of 240 or better to maintain your license. But, that's this dictators dreams.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:00 PM
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Since shooting incidents usually seem to involve a single perpetrator, rather than a pack of them, I think I'd be okay with a revolver. Even a 5-shot one.
I am almost a revolver man almost only so agree. Never felt short with 5 shot and always carry another 5 in a speed loader.

Shark Bite advice what ever you can shoot well I agree.

Me I can put 5 rounds from a J frame in a pie plate at 10 yds. rapid fire any day. Makes me happy and fell comfortable,
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:19 PM
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Considering the odds of being involved in a defensive shooting and the fact that people with absolutely no training very often successfully defend themselves with firearms everyday in this country, I think most people interested only in self-defense would question the need for such extensive training that some are advocating.

You are much more likely to need to use unarmed skills in self-defense throughout your life and such skills are much harder to learn and effectively apply, but how many people put in the time and training or have the physical ability to do so.

I had exceptional natural ability in martial arts and trained at least 4 hours a day all through high school, so it wasn't a surprise to anyone when I was recruited for Olympic competition and then asked to participate in the UFC.

Self-defense was my stated primary goal and I loved to train and couldn't understand anyone not feeling the same way. I remember I lost a lot of students in the early days who viewed me as a fanatic and looking back they were absolutely right. These were everyday people coming to me wanting to learn some basic self-defense skills in a safe environment just in case and I didn't provide that for them. Looking back, I wasn't even really teaching self-defense, I was teaching street-fighting. There is a very big difference.

I think many defensive shooting instructors take things too far as well and are teaching from a military combat or law enforcement perspective rather than true self-defense. Again, there is a huge difference. Since we are talking security, I think law enforcement lessons apply to a much greater degree, but it is still very easy to carry things too far and lose perspective. An enthusiast loves to train, practice, shoot and compete all the time, but that doesn't mean everybody does or that it is necessary.
I hear this all the time, but reality, most people defending themselves never have to pull the trigger. Those unskilled that do & survive, more by luck & the bad guy being even more poorly skilled.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:47 PM
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I am not too familiar with NJ CC laws, but with the church’s permission you should be able to CC on private property. You may have to carry from home to church in a locked container, but once on private property you should be clear to CC. Just guessing. That said, carry what you are most competent with.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:36 PM
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I would be very hesitant to carry a 5 shot revolver .. but a 7 or 8 shot
I think would be a better choice ..

In a confrontation with a single robber say at a gas pump the need would be different then a home invasion where 3 or more Perps break in to a home ..

From my experience (I am in my mid 60's) police are much worse shooters then many non police shooters .. Their targets don't have much of a pattern to them .. as the spray is over the whole target including missing paper completely !! I have only seen a couple put his rounds in about a 4 inch circle and one was a deputy sheriff .. they shoot between 1 and about 4 times a year where those I know and my self shoot multiple times either weekly or monthly .. I shoot 50 to 75 or more times what they shoot in a year .. 200 verses over 3000 rounds for me .. other friends who reload shoot even more rounds then I do .. just because of the amount of practice we should be more proficient ..
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:13 PM
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From my experience (I am in my mid 60's) police are much worse shooters then many non police shooters .. Their targets don't have much of a pattern to them .. as the spray is over the whole target including missing paper completely !! I have only seen a couple put his rounds in about a 4 inch circle and one was a deputy sheriff .. they shoot between 1 and about 4 times a year where those I know and my self shoot multiple times either weekly or monthly .. I shoot 50 to 75 or more times what they shoot in a year .. 200 verses over 3000 rounds for me .. other friends who reload shoot even more rounds then I do .. just because of the amount of practice we should be more proficient ..
A little judgmental there Whitwabit, how many of your targets move around and shoot back?
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:45 PM
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From my experience (I am in my mid 60's) police are much worse shooters then many non police shooters .. Their targets don't have much of a pattern to them .. as the spray is over the whole target including missing paper completely !! I have only seen a couple put his rounds in about a 4 inch circle and one was a deputy sheriff .. they shoot between 1 and about 4 times a year where those I know and my self shoot multiple times either weekly or monthly .. I shoot 50 to 75 or more times what they shoot in a year .. 200 verses over 3000 rounds for me .. other friends who reload shoot even more rounds then I do .. just because of the amount of practice we should be more proficient ..
Remember anyone on this forum is at the far end of the bell curve for civilian gun ownership too. I would agree that a civilian firearms enthusiast probably shoots more often and better then your average officer (I'm a full time LEO, and just did 4 years on our range staff). However your average civilian gun owner probably shoots less often then your average officer, which I would guess translates to less proficiency. On the flip side, some officers are serious shooters just as some civilians are.

If we took 25 random civilian gun owners (not self selecting mind you) and had them shoot a qual course I think we'd see the same thing we see from officers.

So with that said:

Using a firearm in defense of others changes the equation a bit. Using a particular type of gun with a small ammo capacity does not magically allow the end user the ability to be cool under fire and exercise the fundamentals. Being highly proficient in the gun and confident in their abilities with it, will allow for a positive application of the fundamentals under high stress. For most people this is not a revolver, for some it is.

I've got a few more thoughts I'll add after I finish off the chore list for the weekend.

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Old 03-18-2018, 04:54 PM
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Back when LEO's carried revolvers, they were not distinctly disadvantaged *because the bad guys they faced most likely had revolvers too*. Both sides had to "make their 6 shots count".

Today, most bad guys will have Glock 17s or a Long gun with 30 rounds of 5.56. When choosing my own pistol to carry, I do not want to start out by being disadvantaged by having 5-8 rounds in the gun when the bad guys will have 18-30 rounds in their guns.

There are many documented accounts of LEO's (and even armed citizens), who when the balloon when up, had to fire 10,12, or even dozens of rounds before the fight was over. Why semi-automatics are used in law enforcement

Statistically, we won't have to fire that many rounds. But as long as I'm carrying a pistol to begin with, why carry a heavy one that holds 6, when I can carry one that weighs the same and holds more than twice the cartridges.
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Old 03-18-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
Back when LEO's carried revolvers, they were not distinctly disadvantaged *because the bad guys they faced most likely had revolvers too*. Both sides had to "make their 6 shots count".

Today, most bad guys will have Glock 17s or a Long gun with 30 rounds of 5.56. When choosing my own pistol to carry, I do not want to start out by being disadvantaged by having 5-8 rounds in the gun when the bad guys will have 18-30 rounds in their guns.

There are many documented accounts of LEO's (and even armed citizens), who when the balloon when up, had to fire 10,12, or even dozens of rounds before the fight was over. Why semi-automatics are used in law enforcement

Statistically, we won't have to fire that many rounds. But as long as I'm carrying a pistol to begin with, why carry a heavy one that holds 6, when I can carry one that weighs the same and holds more than twice the cartridges.
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Old 03-18-2018, 10:44 PM
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A little judgmental there Whitwabit, how many of your targets move around and shoot back?
My training involves shooting while moving & moving targets & moving while shooting moving targets, oh & night shoots at least twice a year. Being shot at, old old line. If you cant hit poop standing still with no bullets flying, you are not suddenly becoming a combat master when the poop hits the fan. Reality, avg ccw or avg leo suck with their gun skills. Thankfully, most will never have the need. We have seen what trained professionals dont do in Broward Cty.
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Old 03-18-2018, 10:59 PM
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My opinion is that concealed carry is managed risk. You think about what type of risk you are likely to encounter and prepare accordingly. As a general rule, I'm fine with a five shot J frame based on where I live, my lifestyle, etc...If I lived in a higher risk area or had a job/lifestyle that was riskier, that would affect my choice of weapon both in terms of revolver/semi-auto, capacity and caliber. In a situation where an attacker may target a group like a church intent on mass murder, he may have body armour. In that case, I would want as many rounds as possible to stop, distract, or otherwise slow down the perp so that as many people as possible could escape.
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:59 AM
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A little judgmental there Whitwabit, how many of your targets move around and shoot back?
Not judgmental at all .. I said it was my experience ..

But if a LEO cant hit a standing target how would I or anyone else expect him to hit a moving one ???
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:30 AM
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I'll just leave this right here.

Austin cop's sure shot stopped crazed gunman | Fox News

If I equated you with idiots I see at my range, WW, I'm guessing I'd probably insult you.

Now, which do you think is better--a cop that's really good at shooting people, or a cop that's really good at, you know, the things cops actually do 99.99% of the time? Which is frequently "resolve situations without shooting people, where people the people in question are trying to make us shoot them".
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:55 AM
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Boys, it don't matter how many Xs ya can put on a B-21 on a static range...

It's how many you can put on the threat that's moving and trying
to eliminate you and anyone else that comes into their line of fire.

If one can't move and fight at the same time...Well then, ya better
be really lucky or have a really good relationship with your Maker

It's a thinking on your feet kinda thing.

Owning a pair of boxing gloves doesn't make one a boxer,
anymore than owning a gun makes one a gunfighter.

Just my humble opine, for this has been my personal experience in this ol life.

.

To the OP's question....Carry whatever you think you can live with.

.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:33 AM
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If carrying a revolver makes me irresponsible, in my best
Frank Sinatra voice: "CALL ME IRRESPONSIBLE"
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bushmaster1313 View Post

Irresponsible to carry a revolver to protect others?
Your thoughts please
The only irresponsibility is not having something to protect yourself.
They have lied to the public for decades, "to protect and serve" was nothing more than a marketing gimmick. And as the Supreme Court has ruled and on more than one occasion the police forces do not have to protect you leaving the assumption you are responsible for your own well being.

If you are good with a revolver go for it. Not one case over the last several years has anybody even confronted these mass shooters with a gun, not one time. So who is to say a revolver could not be effective.


However I would also encourage your group to get educated, trained and armed themselves, that's a heck of a responsibility to be taking on being responsible for their safety. You are a better person than I, cause I'm not carrying a gun to protect anyone else out here but myself, it will be bad enough trying to defend my actions without the ones you protected trying to sue you in court as well.

That notion goes back to a time it became law in some jurisdictions to render medical aid if trained. And several people being sued that they caused more harm.
A lady friend had told me and she was a nurse if I see a car accident they'll be lucky if I even call 911.

Wait until they get all the guns out of America and we are left with stones and a sticks against the jacked-up ex-con weight lifter. And the police selling their services on the side.

A lot of people don't know this about how the fire depts. use to respond in America, you had to pay and have your house marked or they let it burn to the ground.
Some will find out real quick like who the police really serve in America. Of course those 'special ones' will be allowed to keep their guns don't ya know.
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Thorton View Post
The only irresponsibility is not having something to protect yourself.
They have lied to the public for decades, "to protect and serve" was nothing more than a marketing gimmick. And as the Supreme Court has ruled and on more than one occasion the police forces do not have to protect you leaving the assumption you are responsible for your own well being.

If you are good with a revolver go for it. Not one case over the last several years has anybody even confronted these mass shooters with a gun, not one time. So who is to say a revolver could not be effective.


However I would also encourage your group to get educated, trained and armed themselves, that's a heck of a responsibility to be taking on being responsible for their safety. You are a better person than I, cause I'm not carrying a gun to protect anyone else out here but myself, it will be bad enough trying to defend my actions without the ones you protected trying to sue you in court as well.

That notion goes back to a time it became law in some jurisdictions to render medical aid if trained. And several people being sued that they caused more harm.
A lady friend had told me and she was a nurse if I see a car accident they'll be lucky if I even call 911.

Wait until they get all the guns out of America and we are left with stones and a sticks against the jacked-up ex-con weight lifter. And the police selling their services on the side.

A lot of people don't know this about how the fire depts. use to respond in America, you had to pay and have your house marked or they let it burn to the ground.
Some will find out real quick like who the police really serve in America. Of course those 'special ones' will be allowed to keep their guns don't ya know.
1. Sutherland Springs church, Nov. 2017: Steven Williford grabbed his legally owned AR-15 and confronted the shooter. Whillford took aimed fire and shot the shooter where his vest didn't protect.
2. 1997, Pearl Mississippi: a principal used his .45 auto to stop Luke Woodlam, who had killed 2 students and was about to kill more.
3) 2007: Jeane Assam shot and killed mass shooter Matthew Murray in a church in Colorado
4)TN, 2017, an armed citizen (usher) stopped a masked gunman inside a church who had already shot several people.

There are plenty of cases of armed citizens confronting mass shooters.
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Old 03-19-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
1. Sutherland Springs church, Nov. 2017: Steven Williford grabbed his legally owned AR-15 and confronted the shooter. Whillford took aimed fire and shot the shooter where his vest didn't protect.
2. 1997, Pearl Mississippi: a principal used his .45 auto to stop Luke Woodlam, who had killed 2 students and was about to kill more.
3) 2007: Jeane Assam shot and killed mass shooter Matthew Murray in a church in Colorado
4)TN, 2017, an armed citizen (usher) stopped a masked gunman inside a church who had already shot several people.

There are plenty of cases of armed citizens confronting mass shooters.
Yep & not a single LEO in sight.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:16 PM
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If the discussion boils down to ammo capacity differences between a revolver and a pistol, the discussion is misleading.



The appropriate focus is on what gun you can shoot well at longer distances than are commonly associated with typical sd applications.

In this light, tiny 380’s and j frames are disqualified for the vast majority of shooters. They simply can’t reliably hit at 25 yards with such weapons.

This leaves full sized pistols such as 1911’s and K frame revolvers as the guns of choice.

The issue isn’t how many shots you can get off before reloading but rather what you can hit with.

I’m always amused by those who must be planning to miss a lot, so they think they need a large capacity gun, offering themselves up as protectors.
Hitting an assailant does not equate to stopping an assailant. There are reasons an assailant may not stop. Drugs, body armour, psychosis, etc.....I am a die hard revolver fan and believe that for the average person in a situation where you may face one or two attackers, the revolver is adequate. After reading "Why police carry semi-automatics" by Masaad Ayoob, I am convinced that for self-defense, the semi-auto is the way to go. Many of us CCW because we are trying to prepare for the unexpected. You can never know what to expect to face when you go out each day. So prepare, as much as reasonably possible, for the worse. Today's autos are very reliable and bullet designs much more effective than in the past. Astonishingly, good quality autos, like the M&P Shield can be had for under $400. At the same time, quality shooter grade revolvers like the Model 10 are pushing well in excess of that price. I used to be all about all steel revolvers. Never even thought about looking at Tupperware pistols and wouldn't have bought one for 25 cents on the dollar if I had. Now, I love my Shield for the great utilitarian tool that it is. Don't get me wrong, revolvers have their place. But where my family's life is concerned, I will take an auto over nostalgia any time.
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:25 AM
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Many experts will tell you: "Shot placement is key".

What many experts fail to tell you:"It may take MULTIPLE shot placements on MULTIPLE targets to neutralize a threat."

Understanding THAT is key. It is in that regard that the semi-auto excels.
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:04 AM
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Given the religious nature of the question, I would say the solution is 95% mindset and 5% hardware. Refer to 1 Samuel 17 for more information.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:40 PM
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To put things in perspective: Even gang bangers like their pistols and like the "latest and greatest". How many of them go out in the world armed with a Glock, or something similar, with a 15 round mag and say a couple of spare mags? That would mean a potential threat has 45 rounds of ammo (46 if he had one in the chamber already). Now, let us say that the thug has two friends similarly armed/prepared. That would mean your potential threat, the three thugs, would have 135 rounds of ammo at their disposal if the each had two extra mags. Compare that to a 6 shot wheel gun and two or three speed strips/speed loaders against three determined thugs. Do you like the odds?
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:40 AM
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Given the religious nature of the question, I would say the solution is 95% mindset and 5% hardware. Refer to 1 Samuel 17 for more information.
I'm calling my J Frame " David ".

JPFO approved.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:14 AM
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JMO, don't go head to head in a crowded room exchanging 290 shots unless you are filming an A-Team episode. Deftly put two in the cranium of each miscreant and reload. Revolver works just fine for SD. If being attacked by mall ninjas, a belt fed weapon is more appropriate.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:29 AM
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Several people want a bunch of ammo in case they attacked by several people.
I guess they think the bad guys are going to patiently wait while they are being shot. In reality while you shoot one all the rest are going to be shooting you and you won't even get to the second person.
I have read that in WW2 and Korea unarmed groups would try too over run a machine gun so even with an unarmed group how many times can you pull the trigger.
I know there is a 1 in 10 blue million chance of needing more than 5 shots but I don't see the reason to run and hide every time a car goes down the road because it might run off the road and hit me. Larry
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Old 03-23-2018, 05:40 PM
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Considering the odds of being involved in a defensive shooting and the fact that people with absolutely no training very often successfully defend themselves with firearms everyday in this country, I think most people interested only in self-defense would question the need for such extensive training that some are advocating.

You are much more likely to need to use unarmed skills in self-defense throughout your life and such skills are much harder to learn and effectively apply, but how many people put in the time and training or have the physical ability to do so.

I had exceptional natural ability in martial arts and trained at least 4 hours a day all through high school, so it wasn't a surprise to anyone when I was recruited for Olympic competition and then asked to participate in the UFC.

Self-defense was my stated primary goal and I loved to train and couldn't understand anyone not feeling the same way. I remember I lost a lot of students in the early days who viewed me as a fanatic and looking back they were absolutely right. These were everyday people coming to me wanting to learn some basic self-defense skills in a safe environment just in case and I didn't provide that for them. Looking back, I wasn't even really teaching self-defense, I was teaching street-fighting. There is a very big difference.

I think many defensive shooting instructors take things too far as well and are teaching from a military combat or law enforcement perspective rather than true self-defense. Again, there is a huge difference. Since we are talking security, I think law enforcement lessons apply to a much greater degree, but it is still very easy to carry things too far and lose perspective. An enthusiast loves to train, practice, shoot and compete all the time, but that doesn't mean everybody does or that it is necessary.
Unarmed skills in self-defense are a MUST. You have to know how to defend yourself and your weapon should it come down to hand to hand, thus, it should also be part of your training regimen. BTW, the scariest person I ever met was my IDF Krav Maga training instructor, all 4'7" of her. The most beautiful women I've ever seen, but also the scariest one.
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Old 03-23-2018, 05:48 PM
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To put things in perspective: Even gang bangers like their pistols and like the "latest and greatest". How many of them go out in the world armed with a Glock, or something similar, with a 15 round mag and say a couple of spare mags? That would mean a potential threat has 45 rounds of ammo (46 if he had one in the chamber already). Now, let us say that the thug has two friends similarly armed/prepared. That would mean your potential threat, the three thugs, would have 135 rounds of ammo at their disposal if the each had two extra mags. Compare that to a 6 shot wheel gun and two or three speed strips/speed loaders against three determined thugs. Do you like the odds?
I don't know. What do you think the odds are in that case? Three to one? 135 to 6? Do you think that if I carried a Galil and four 50-round mags my odds would be better or worse?

Explain.
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:24 PM
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While I never went toe to toe with dedicated looking for 72 Virginians (not a typo) jihadis, in my time on the job I was shot at a few times, both by single and multiple assaliants, alone and in the company of other officers.

If you think the average LTC civilian is a bad shot, criminals are worse, and not very good planners. In a church its more likley an angry ex or mad at the world loner than 3 unemployed ex Spetznatz veterans.

If you are CCW, the shooter doesn't know he should be consentrating on you, but you know you should be concentrating on him.
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Old 03-24-2018, 09:28 AM
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I don't know. What do you think the odds are in that case? Three to one? 135 to 6? Do you think that if I carried a Galil and four 50-round mags my odds would be better or worse?

Explain.
We live in a day where compact high capacity autos that are easily concealable are very affordable. In many cases more affordable than even a used good quality revolver. So many people here talk about. the slim chance of being in an armed confrontation to begin with, yet will cling to the ultra reliable revolver because if, in the tiny chance that they are involved in an armed confrontation, their auto pistol may fail. Today's autos are very reliable and ammo improved so much that the once scoffed at .380 is now commonly carried for self-defense. So, while one may not have great odds in a 3-1 confrontation, his odds are greatly improved with a high capacity auto and a spare magazine or two in comparison to a six shot wheel gun. No one is saying that you can not successfully defend yourself with a revolver. All the revolver fans here (of which I am one) make the false assumption that once a gun is drawn or a shot is fired, miscreants will run like rats. They falsely assume that a person with an auto firing multiple rounds is missing his target. They also assume, falsely, that a defender with an auto will respond with a spray and pray mentality. Concealed carry with a hand gun is a compromise. Carrying a compact high capacity auto is an easy, affordable, and reasonable preparation for a worst case scenario that can improve one's odds over 5 or 6 shot wheel gun. Carrying a high capacity auto with one or two spare magazines ensures that you will have more ammunition at your disposal if needed compared to a wheel gun with two speed loaders. You won't know how much ammo you will need until the shtf. Ammo is like a firearm, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:36 PM
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I carry my Bible all the time. In fact I have one in each vehicle.
Also take one into Church.
Bible Book Safe for Compact Handguns S&W Taurus Ruger
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:51 PM
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The inside of my Bible carrier.
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Old 03-28-2018, 05:00 PM
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Just Saying if'n it's n'a BIBLE case shouldn't it be a JOHN MOSES (Browning)?
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:01 PM
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The Bible link I posted above are books made by my nephew.
I am having him make one out of the book:
"Last Man Standing" for my Shield. It will have room for a mag or 2.

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