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View Poll Results: Is 5+1 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot enough for home defense?
Yes 206 94.06%
No 13 5.94%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 03-28-2018, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
We never caught them. The kid was fine and having a good time at Chuck E. Cheese. Dad knew who they were but wasn't talking. The mom called the cops, he didn't. We had the phone wired so we knew it was a dope dispute, but with no dope on the table no one was going to prosecute that end of it.

This was in New Orleans during the pre-Katrina glory years of 435 murders a year in a town of less than 500,000 people. The motto was "If you don't care, we don't care." He didn't care. We moved on to someone who did.
I thought that story sounded like New Orleans BTW I think that is still their motto. Down here that would be referred to as a Misdemeanor kidnapping. Story reminds me of that classic "The Ransom of Red Chief"
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  #102  
Old 03-28-2018, 10:01 AM
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Like sigp220.45 said,

But who knows who holds a grudge?

I've had a few 'fans' in the years past that want a FTF visit when they got released.

I'm still careful....it's my nature.


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  #103  
Old 03-28-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
My 40-year old Remington 870 is an unusual piece, having a 21" barrel with choke tubes. It has the standard magazine tube, accepts 4 rounds (2 when I put in the plug for duck hunting). At home it stays loaded with 2-3/4" loads of BB shot with the improved cylinder choke tube. I doubt anyone will notice the difference between 1.25 oz. BB shot and buckshot from one end of the house to the other end. I also doubt that the BB shot will penetrate more than one wall, which I find important in a residential area.

If the 4 rounds of 12-gauge aren't enough I will have to use the back-up piece, a .45 caliber pistol (8 round mag).

No, I don't feel under-gunned.
I could not agree more. I have two 870's hidden in the house. You hit someone with #6, 7 or 8 bird shot from 5 to 10 feet, the wad might kill them. Plus, if two or more come in the house and you take out the first perp with a blast, unless the next guy in line is Rambo, they will probably injure each other heading back out the door they just came thru.
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  #104  
Old 03-28-2018, 11:27 AM
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I could not agree more. I have two 870's hidden in the house. You hit someone with #6, 7 or 8 bird shot from 5 to 10 feet, the wad might kill them. Plus, if two or more come in the house and you take out the first perp with a blast, unless the next guy in line is Rambo, they will probably injure each other heading back out the door they just came thru.

I see that you are an active/retired LEO. Did you carry "bird shot" in the shotgun in your unit? Probably not.
What is so different now that you would recommend that I use bird shot instead of buck shot of some size or another?
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  #105  
Old 03-28-2018, 11:39 AM
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Off the top of my head I recall reading about 2 home invasions where the homeowner used a shotgun, both involving 2 or 3 attackers and resolved with one shot. The attackers in both cases fled, IIRC. One involved an old lady using bird shot. They caught the suspects in that case. One of them was wearing a leather jacket and the shot didn't penetrate through. I don't know what the defender in the other case was using, though I believe he did wound one of the attackers.

While this is a very small sample size, I, personally, would not trust bird shot even at home defense distances. From what I've read, #1 or #4 buckshot seem to be recommended as being a good balance between effectiveness and mitigating the risk of overpenetration/penetrating walls.

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  #106  
Old 03-28-2018, 11:46 AM
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I much prefer a carbine for a long gun; but in any case I just don't worry about having 5 gazillion rounds on my person. 6 Rounds in a shotgun would not concern me at all. (as long as it wasn't bird shot!)
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  #107  
Old 03-28-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by REM 3200 View Post
I see that you are an active/retired LEO. Did you carry "bird shot" in the shotgun in your unit? Probably not.
What is so different now that you would recommend that I use bird shot instead of buck shot of some size or another?
His department doesn't get to tell him what to use at home . . .
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  #108  
Old 03-28-2018, 11:52 AM
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Thanks so much, gang. Seems the overall consensus is positive for this role. I just like the better balance and greater protection from damage. I feel as if the fit and swing of the gun is very important, and a good trade off for one less round and with a side saddle and practice, there are more where that came from in the tube as well.
Wait...There was a consensus????
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  #109  
Old 03-28-2018, 02:02 PM
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Wait...There was a consensus????
126:7 Seems pretty clear.
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  #110  
Old 03-28-2018, 02:28 PM
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Just the sound of racking the slide could be a serious deterrent.
then just get a recording of the "sound" and not bother with the trouble a firearm can bring.
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  #111  
Old 03-28-2018, 04:28 PM
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......
Not everyone wants or even can have a big dog. I have Randy, a very protective Rottweiler......
Good lookin' guy, give him a scratch on the head from me.
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  #112  
Old 03-29-2018, 03:06 PM
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My vote is no just because most home invasions are multiple attackers & a 12ga runs out pretty damn quick, though very effective in those first 6rds. So a few spare shells in the butt stock would be nice. People think you can not miss with a 12ga but a riot choke spreads about 1" every 3ft or so. So down a hall or across a 20ft room, 6" spread means you can miss or just peripheral hit in a rush.
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Old 03-29-2018, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by REM 3200 View Post
I see that you are an active/retired LEO. Did you carry "bird shot" in the shotgun in your unit? Probably not.
What is so different now that you would recommend that I use bird shot instead of buck shot of some size or another?
The reason is, at the Academy where I went, we were told birdshot was preferred in home defense. Buckshot would go thru a wall and kill or injure occupants in the next room. I carried #4 Shot in my 870. It was my own gun.
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  #114  
Old 03-29-2018, 03:50 PM
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My vote is no just because most home invasions are multiple attackers & a 12ga runs out pretty damn quick, though very effective in those first 6rds. So a few spare shells in the butt stock would be nice. People think you can not miss with a 12ga but a riot choke spreads about 1" every 3ft or so. So down a hall or across a 20ft room, 6" spread means you can miss or just peripheral hit in a rush.
If you can't stop attackers with 8 rounds, you got a problem. I love talking with new LEO recruits when they say, I have 14 rounds plus two spare mags. If you need 30 plus rounds, better call for back up.
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  #115  
Old 03-29-2018, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by REM 3200 View Post
I see that you are an active/retired LEO. Did you carry "bird shot" in the shotgun in your unit? Probably not.
What is so different now that you would recommend that I use bird shot instead of buck shot of some size or another?
The old LEO rounds were 00 buck shot. They could penetrate car doors and still take out a Perp. They were also effective at 50 yards. Show me a house that provides a 50 yard indoor range....

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Old 03-29-2018, 04:22 PM
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My vote is no just ** because most home invasions are multiple attackers** & a 12ga runs out pretty damn quick, though very effective in those first 6rds. So a few spare shells in the butt stock would be nice. People think you can not miss with a 12ga but a riot choke spreads about 1" every 3ft or so. So down a hall or across a 20ft room, 6" spread means you can miss or just peripheral hit in a rush.
IN KALI MAYBE, cuz you know them "multiple attackers", are NOT there to just grab the goods & get out. "They" are ALWAYS there to commit violence, AND they carpool it so as to leave a smaller carbon footprint.
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  #117  
Old 03-29-2018, 04:41 PM
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  #118  
Old 03-29-2018, 05:35 PM
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If you expect to repel a squad of armed "home invaders", what are the chances you aren't going to be overwhelmed by superior numbers and weapon count, no matter how many rounds/shells your "home defense weapon" may be able to hold before having to again be loaded? Especially if caught by surprise?

Granted, none of the areas where we've lived in the last 40 years were normally subject to roving hordes of home invaders, and the rural community where we presently live is pretty much off the map for that sort of thing (unless you're dealing drugs, etc), so I have a somewhat lessened concern about such things.

As far as the shotgun loaded with "bird shot"? No personal opinion, but i do have a concern regarding misses and potential perforation of structure walls by any rounds fired (hence concern for angle/elevation of shots fired and fields of potential fire).

I once professionally met a fellow who was arrested for an outstanding attempted murder warrant (if I remember right, as it was a long time ago), and who had been shot by a local officer within a backyard during an attempted escape. The suspect was in the process of climbing over a fence, and the shotgun the officer had grabbed (from a patrol car) had been loaded with some type of bird shot (unknowingly to him, he claimed).

BTW, if you think the loading of birdshot into issued shotguns doesn't sometimes occur (instead of the issued or authorized buckshot), you haven't worked around enough cops. Cops may "run out" of issued buckshot, or have it "go missing" from their assigned veh, and quietly substitute some 12GA shells that are "handy". I can even think of an instance where an issued 870 had to be brought to the armorer because the wrong gauge shells had been loaded into it and the mechanism locked up.

Anyway, this suspect had been hit across hit his upper chest & shoulder by a LOT of birdshot. A very large area of bandaged wounds. He told me that it had caught him by complete surprise, and suddenly hurt so much that it caused him to lose his balance and fall off the fence, interfering with his attempted escape, allowing the cops to catch him before he could get away. He wasn't a big guy, either. Fortunately for the cops, the suspect had been unarmed, so he had no way to shoot at the cops.
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  #119  
Old 03-29-2018, 05:52 PM
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BTW, if you think the loading of birdshot into issued shotguns doesn't sometimes occur (instead of the issued or authorized buckshot), you haven't worked around enough cops. Cops may "run out" of issued buckshot, or have it "go missing" from their assigned veh, and quietly substitute some 12GA shells that are "handy". I can even think of an instance where an issued 870 had to be brought to the armorer because the wrong gauge shells had been loaded into it and the mechanism locked up.
No kidding! I was doing shotgun quals for a bunch of Indian Country agents once, and one guy pulled out his duty 870 and touched off his first round from the 50. It was supposed to be a slug, but the target was lightly dusted with random tiny holes. I looked at the empty and it was 7 1/2 shot, which we definitely don't issue. He laughed and said - oh ****, it's bird season!
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Old 04-02-2018, 11:45 AM
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Don't show up that often these days but I made the right choice of purchasing S&W mag extensions when they were available yeras ago for my two S&W police M-3000, 2 and 3 shell for 18 and 20" blue and parked barrels. Keep them in storage since I feel the 5 and 1 rounds is quite adequate.
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:38 PM
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OK, we have that covered. Is it time to talk about bears again?
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:53 PM
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Is that Terry Nugent, Ted's brother? Sorry, a bad joke carried over from some other recent threads. Lol.

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Old 04-03-2018, 04:58 PM
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I have a 20" Mossberg 500. It holds 8+1 of the 2 3/4" shells.
same set up here
"Cruiser Ready" w 00
Tec-star side saddle w 6 more
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:10 AM
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Everyone worrys about capacity,perps shoot back,chances are if you do not put them down with one or two well placed shots ,you will be shot to. Capacity means pray and spray.

Last edited by jeeps; 04-04-2018 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:39 AM
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Everyone worrys about capacity,perps shoot back,chances are if you do not put them down with one or two well placed shots ,you will be shot to. Capacity means pray and spray.
That's not true... capacity means you are prepared for a worse case scenario .. sorry to disagree.. I always think of the police officer that got into a gun battle with perps and ran through some insane number of rounds and magazines.. wish I could pull that story up .. just remember reading it and makes me think every time I "load" up ...
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:53 AM
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Ok, I just found the article about the PO that now carries 145 rds when he goes on duty. He got into a shootout with one guy that took 14 rds of 45acp and continued to engage the officer.. check this out if you want to know why I prefer to carry as much ammo as I can, whether it be in my HD shotgun or any of my carry guns ...

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:31 AM
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OK, we have that covered. Is it time to talk about bears again?
...or .380 for self-defense? LOL
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:36 PM
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I was thinking cougar thread.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:21 PM
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I was thinking cougar thread.
Cougars? I like cougars. Especially the ones hanging around the bar at closing time.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:45 PM
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Personally,I wouldn't want to be the person in front of a 12 ga.shotgun round being fired.I own 4, 12 ga. shotguns.
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Old 04-05-2018, 06:12 AM
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Your not a cop,but home owner. A few well placed shots is all that's needed. We should worry more about a heart attack that will kill you instead of Rambo web nonsense.
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Old 04-05-2018, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jeeps View Post
Your not a cop,but home owner. A few well placed shots is all that's needed. We should worry more about a heart attack that will kill you instead of Rambo web nonsense.
At least you got a little right .... Ahhh Rambo, one of my favorite characters.. I'll keep my KSG shotgun with 22 rds in the tubes ... Yeeee ha
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:20 PM
Old Arkansawyer Old Arkansawyer is offline
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Originally Posted by mrchuck View Post
MY old duty S&W riot gun next to the night stand is loaded and ready.
A Winchester 30-30 is next to it if I need to "reach out" further.
I also have a 30-30 in the mix along with 12g and .44 special.
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  #134  
Old 04-07-2018, 12:14 AM
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Hi OP and everybody,
I just want to state something that I think is crucial...

Shotguns are not drop safe. Even with the safety on. That is the main reason why "cruiser ready" (mag full, chamber empty, hammer down) is the standard way of keeping it stored.

What's more likely? A home invasion or you or a loved one accidentally dropping your shotgun while at home?

The added "tactical advantage" of the loaded chamber (in a shotgun) really does not justify the risk.

--

Oh, and to answer the OP... I think 5+1 of 12 gauge are more than enough for defending your home. (And that comes from someone who lives in a sh***y third-world country. Go figure.
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:37 PM
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I have reconsidered, I no longer feel my over under is adequate. Where can a fella get a good pair of belt fed 10 gauge guns?

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  #136  
Old 04-09-2018, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by diegobxr View Post
Shotguns are not drop safe. Even with the safety on.
What do you mean?

I guess if you dropped it (you'd really have to slam it though) on the muzzle, it might fire. Otherwise I just don't see what your concern is.
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Old 04-09-2018, 11:55 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Virtually all pump and semi-auto shotguns have trigger blocking safeties. This increases the possibility of AD as a result of the sear releasing the hammer in some manner independent of the trigger.

I haven't personally checked the triggers groups to see exactly how that would work, but looking at a similar, non-shotgun trigger group, it would seem to be in the possible but unlikely area.

Frankly, the cruiser safe system is to keep the trigger group springs unloaded and the chamber empty to prevent stray fingers from removing the light bars from vehicles-at minimum. A deliberate gross action to bring the firearm into ready status is preferable.

BTW, in the Sgt Gramins incident noted above the hit total was 17. 14 in the body & extremities, 3 in the head. The dude kept fighting despite hits to both lungs, one kidney, the liver, the heart and 2 in the head.
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  #138  
Old 04-10-2018, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
I think 4 or 5 shells of 00 buck with a side saddle of 5 more is plenty for engaging multiple targets.

There are stories of GIís in ww1 and ww2 using the standard 5 shot Winchester 1897 to take out entire rows of a trench, or to take on multiple enemy soldiers to great effect.

Train on topping off the tube and a standard pump shotgun is one of the most effective and devastating handheld weapons one can procure

Just my opinion
In 1975 or there abouts, an old man came into a store with a shotgun that he wanted to sell. I was the only other person in the store, so I said to the owner go take care of the old man. I was just gawking at the cases anyway. Well the old man whipped out a Model 97 riot gun( a true cyl. stamped bbl). The old man said what local police dept it came from, and sold it for 125.00. He even said how he sent it back to Winchester for reconditioning. The gun was still on the counter, and the old man was gone and I said to the owner I want the gun. not really knowing what it was, but it sure was pretty. The owner said ok, I will make a quick 10.00 and you can have it for 135.00. I grabbed it so fast it got windburn. It is still today one of my prized posessions, and it is loaded with a tube full of # 2 shot, with xtra extra shells handy and a 1911
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Old 04-10-2018, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
What do you mean?

I guess if you dropped it (you'd really have to slam it though) on the muzzle, it might fire. Otherwise I just don't see what your concern is.
Hi sir,
That's exactly my concern. By design, the pump action shotgun is not drop safe. All the safety does is block the trigger. Not the sear and not the firing pin.

Is it unlikely it will go off if dropped? I think so.
Is it possible?.. Yes. Unlikely, but possible.

At the end of the day, life is full of risks and dangers. We all choose which we accept and which not.

Me not preferring a loaded chamber on a shotgun is just a personal opinion, of course.
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Old 04-11-2018, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
Grab your gun ....hunker down......Rack one and add one for your 6+1.......
If I were to do that I would needlessly eject the round in the chamber out on to the ground.
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  #141  
Old 04-11-2018, 04:04 PM
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Back in the days of gangs of bankrobbers roaming the country my uncle got kidnapped to serve as the getaway driver for one of thos gangs. He was 12. The cops shoot to kill the driver if they follow a getaway car because you get all the bad guys if you take out the driver so the gang used someone they didn't care about to drive. They picked a young kid apparently because they believed a kid would take more drastic steps to stay alive and was likely to have really good reflexes.

My uncle escaped from the gang by crawling out the window of a gas station bathroom. He made his way back home. The gang knew where he lived and they wanted him back. He was a trained and proven driver.

They came to the farm looking for him. They parked a the bottom of the hill near my grandparent's home about 50 yards away I guess. My grandmother came out of the house to confront them. She told them my uncle was inside and so was grandpa and grandpa had a shotgun. Most likely it was a single shot given the time period and the guns farmers owned.

She told them they could go in after my uncle but they could be sure that all of them would not come back out. They thought it over and they left the farm.

A shotgun will scare the living daylights out of anyone with a brain. If one intruder gets shot by one it is very unlikely any more will want the same treatment.

I've switched from a 5+1 Remington 870 to an AR for HD these days. 30 rounds in a hurry will deal even with the gang of drug dealers that live up the hill from me and don't like me at all. One threatened to kill me at least 30 times one day. But they know I'm heavily armed and I practice shooting - a lot. I give a demonstration of what is in store for them in case they ever decide to rush my house. I have a safe zone where I will be hiding. There is a kill zone they will have to go through to get to me. I will be protected by several large appliances lined up in a row. I will have just enough room to fire at anyone that appears in my sights.

They can steal everything I own. I can buy more stuff. But I will protect the lives of my wife and myself. I have a grade A watch dog too so sneaking up won't be easy. He barks a lot if someone approaches our house in the woods which is off by itself. I chose an AR because there is a wall of dirt behind my kill zone and a mile of hillside to the nearest house that direction.

A good plan makes up for liabilities with equipment. I used to count on a shotgun in the same plan but there are a lot of those thugs up the hill and who knows what might come up.
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Old 04-11-2018, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
Is 5+1 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot enough for home defense?
There's an old saying that if six rounds won't get the job done, the problem probably isn't with the ammo capacity. Especially with a shotgun.
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  #143  
Old 04-11-2018, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan View Post
I could not agree more. I have two 870's hidden in the house. You hit someone with #6, 7 or 8 bird shot from 5 to 10 feet, the wad might kill them. Plus, if two or more come in the house and you take out the first perp with a blast, unless the next guy in line is Rambo, they will probably injure each other heading back out the door they just came thru.
After the seeing this video, and the results of a WOMAN being shot at almost point blank range, I could never justify using birdshot as a defensive load.

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Old 04-12-2018, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
After the seeing this video, and the results of a WOMAN being shot at almost point blank range, I could never justify using birdshot as a defensive load.
Using birdshot and the sound of racking a pump gun are the two most prevalent defensive myths that make me just shake my head and wonder why they persist.
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Old 04-13-2018, 05:23 AM
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I've seen morgue photos where birdshot proved lethal...but the fatal shot was delivered at near point-blank range...at an optimal point in the upper torso.

I've also seen many ER photos of people who survived close range shots with birdshot...or who took a near point-blank range shot to the shoulder/arm as they were moving against the shooter and not standing stationary like a paper target.

For rooms/distances in excess of 20 feet or more, I wouldn't want to deliver a nasty flesh wound to an armed intruder. It may work sometimes, or it may not...

That is why after years of teaching marksmanship and room clearing to include terminal ballistics I load birdshot for when I'm hunting birds. My defensive shotgun has #4 buck in the magazine, 00 buck in the side saddle, and slugs in the speed feed stock.

As a Platoon Sergeant I took about a dozen Mossberg 590s with me over two deployments that both myself and my Marines carried...We were NEVER issued birdshot, always 00 buck for a reason. Even had a few non-lethal rounds, but those never got loaded.

Last edited by diggler1833; 04-15-2018 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggler1833 View Post
I've seen morgue photos where birdshot proved lethal...
Any shot from any gun can be lethal. Remember, in the video posted above, the shooter had already killed one person before he got in that room. Chances are he used birdshot for that too. The point about birdshot against a human is that it's a low percentage stopping round.

I know a retired police officer in NC. He was at a situation where a guy had a 12ga pointed at him and his partner. His partner took a 12ga round of 00 Buck in the mid section. He didn't die. He stood there for a moment more surprised than anything. So, even 00 Buck requires shot placement.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:23 PM
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I have an 11-87, extended mag + Wilson combat parts with a mix of 00 buck & slugs. A "Boom"is all a perp will hear
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:30 PM
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A "Boom"is all a perp will hear
Good man!!
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:28 AM
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Well this thread has got me thinking.

I know I shoulden't have taken down that old TV antenna from the roof because of it's proven success record of protecting my home from flying saucers.

It just seemed like a wise plan to live exactly one tank of gas away from the large metro area....like on the day that the checks don't hit the mailbox.

Ya know it is sort of a PITA for the mailman when he has to blow the horn way down there at the gate but the dogs have taught him that's the best plan when he does have to make a delivery.

The sign about"being invited" is a polite way of keeping the Bible slingers out there on the hard road too. Not that I have anything against them, as long as they are out there and I'm up here, we get along just fine.

I do realize that everybody ain't blessed like I am. See, all of this is all just quite by accident. I really didn't plan multiple layers of defense and long flat KZ's around the perimeter of my pad.....all quite by accident.

Quite a lot of stuff has to go wrong before somebody can get to my door but now that the TV antenna is gone.....

My home defense shotgun is an old single shot 20 gauge break top that I use to kill rattlesnakes in the yard......I wouldn't kill the rattlesnakes but I do worry about the dogs.

My neighbors?
We call each other before just dropping in too. If that rule is violated we all know not to get out of our truck until somebody comes out to greet us, it's just neighborly.
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:10 AM
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I've shot chickens from 12 feet away with bird shot and they didn't even notice. They were gamecocks but still. They were getting into my tomatoes and my neighbor, who owned them, told me to shoot them if I saw them there. I did for all the good it did me.

I also shot a rabid fox, that was at my front door, with bird shot 3 times and it didn't notice either.

Bird shot is for birds and it isn't always effective against them. It works on squirrels too but who wants to eat a squirrel filled with bird shot.

I've owned a shotgun pretty much all my life. We had a trap range in our back yard when I was a kid and people came from hundreds of miles away to shoot there. Trap ranges were rare in those days where I lived. I know what shotguns will and won't do. If you want to stop a human use something besides bird shot. If you shoot someone point blank chances are they will be hurt badly. But bird shot patterns expand quickly. You don't get the kind of damage you might expect if your target isn't close.
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