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View Poll Results: Is 5+1 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot enough for home defense?
Yes 193 94.61%
No 11 5.39%
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  #151  
Old 04-14-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
After the seeing this video, and the results of a WOMAN being shot at almost point blank range, I could never justify using birdshot as a defensive load.

Brave Student Stops Active Shooter on Campus | Active Self Protection - YouTube
Wow, that video is something.

The shooting was at Seattle Pacific University a few years ago. The shooter killed a young man by shooting him in the back of the head with a birdshot load from a Browning over and under 12 gauge. The young woman in the video took that full load to the upper right chest. Even though it almost killed her (severed artery, collapsed lung) she didnít even stagger.

Would a 00 buck round have left her standing and walking around? I doubt it, but until I saw this I would have thought the close range birdshot load would have more effect than it did. Iím glad for her sake weíll never know.

She recovered and testified at the guys trial. He got 112 years.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:38 PM
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Even though it almost killed her (severed artery, collapsed lung) she didnít even stagger.

Would a 00 buck round have left her standing and walking around? I doubt it, but until I saw this I would have thought the close range birdshot load would have more effect than it did.
Thanks for the extra info.

It's interesting to note that a normal load of 00 Buck and a normal load of #7.5 (Birdshot) weigh about the same; 1 1/8oz.

Most people think that 00 Buck delivers more damage because it's a bigger pellet. Newton would disagree because the total mass is the same. 1 1/8oz of #7.5 is the same mass as 1 1/8oz of #00 Buck. So, why is 00 Buck better for defense?

The difference is velocity. A normal Trap/Bird load is 1 1/8oz of #7.5 and it's traveling about 1290FPS at the muzzle. A normal load of #00 Buck is 1 1/8oz and is traveling 1400FPS (Hornady Critical Defense #00 Buck loads are traveling 1600FPS ). That extra velocity makes a huge difference in force applied to the bad guy.

That's still not the whole story. The size of the pellet DOES matter. Because it's a larger pellet, each pellet has more mass and individually will do more damage. Therefore, each pellet of #00 Buck will penetrate better than each pellet of #7.5. So, even though the total mass is the same, the velocity of a normal #00 Buck load is higher and the individual pellets will do more damage because the bring more mass to a smaller area.

Now, to answer the question asked by sigp220.45; Would a 00 buck round have left her standing and walking around? The answer is likely no. The reason it's no is because the #00 Buck would likely have broken her collar bone based on the shot placement. A normal person's reaction to a broken bone is an emphatic OOOOWWWW!!!! This is usually followed by some kind of movement. Because the birdshot didn't break any bones, she probably didn't understand what had happened due to the surprise. Because an artery or vein being cut doesn't hurt as much as breaking a bone, we tend to react slower. Thus she was likely more stunned by the sound than the initial hit from the shot.

This is all just speculation from me. Still, it explains why #00 Buck, or larger, is a much better defensive load.
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  #153  
Old 04-14-2018, 10:45 PM
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Thanks for the extra info.

It's interesting to note that a normal load of 00 Buck and a normal load of #7.5 (Birdshot) weigh about the same; 1 1/8oz.

Most people think that 00 Buck delivers more damage because it's a bigger pellet. Newton would disagree because the total mass is the same. 1 1/8oz of #7.5 is the same mass as 1 1/8oz of #00 Buck. So, why is 00 Buck better for defense?

The difference is velocity. A normal Trap/Bird load is 1 1/8oz of #7.5 and it's traveling about 1290FPS at the muzzle. A normal load of #00 Buck is 1 1/8oz and is traveling 1400FPS (Hornady Critical Defense #00 Buck loads are traveling 1600FPS ). That extra velocity makes a huge difference in force applied to the bad guy.

That's still not the whole story. The size of the pellet DOES matter. Because it's a larger pellet, each pellet has more mass and individually will do more damage. Therefore, each pellet of #00 Buck will penetrate better than each pellet of #7.5. So, even though the total mass is the same, the velocity of a normal #00 Buck load is higher and the individual pellets will do more damage because the bring more mass to a smaller area.

Now, to answer the question asked by sigp220.45; Would a 00 buck round have left her standing and walking around? The answer is likely no. The reason it's no is because the #00 Buck would likely have broken her collar bone based on the shot placement. A normal person's reaction to a broken bone is an emphatic OOOOWWWW!!!! This is usually followed by some kind of movement. Because the birdshot didn't break any bones, she probably didn't understand what had happened due to the surprise. Because an artery or vein being cut doesn't hurt as much as breaking a bone, we tend to react slower. Thus she was likely more stunned by the sound than the initial hit from the shot.

This is all just speculation from me. Still, it explains why #00 Buck, or larger, is a much better defensive load.
Your logic is sound.

At the end of the day, a person using a 12ga shotgun for defensive purposes should be exercising "best practices" with regard to their loadout. For THIS purpose, it's clearly demonstrated by people with actual experience, that buckshot is the most effective.

I load the Hornady shells in my 12ga.
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  #154  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:15 AM
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Yep, biggest advantage of the ~55gr 00 buck projectiles is PENETRATION.

If you can't reach vitals...you can't destroy vitals.

Also, Newton might argue that the actual muzzle energy disparity of birdshot versus buckshot might make a bit of a difference felt on the receiving end (mass * velocity = energy). So the 1-1/8oz. load of ~1,300fps birdshot will not hit as hard as 1-1/8oz load of ~1400fps buckshot.

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Old 04-15-2018, 10:05 AM
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Also, Newton might argue that the actual muzzle energy disparity of birdshot versus buckshot might make a bit of a difference felt on the receiving end (mass * velocity = energy). So the 1-1/8oz. load of ~1,300fps birdshot will not hit as hard as 1-1/8oz load of ~1400fps buckshot.
Well, my writing skills must not be that good because that was exactly my point. When looking at the different loads available in the store, people think #00 Buck is better because it's bigger when the truth is it's the velocity that makes most of the difference.

The same goes for kick or felt recoil. People think that because #00 Buck is bigger it kicks more. The truth there is that if #7.5 has the same muzzle velocity as #00 Buck, they'll have the same recoil.

In the same vein, #00 Buck will penetrate more, even with the same velocity, because of the more concentrated mass in each pellet. Of course that just confuses the issue.

In any event, you can't argue with what Newton taught us.
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:46 AM
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I load the Hornady shells in my 12ga.
Have you ever shot those? They hurt to shoot.
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:26 PM
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Question: What are the most rounds you have heard some one using a shotgun in their home?
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:57 PM
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Question: What are the most rounds you have heard some one using a shotgun in their home?
What's your point ...
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:39 PM
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Question: What are the most rounds you have heard some one using a shotgun in their home?
I worked one where a guy fired three times, but it was a pretty iffy deal and it was in the front yard.

The guy, who I'll call Bob to simplify this tale, had shot and killed a guy in a tag-team with his nephew six days before. In that case, which wasn't mine, an unhappy rival had shown up at Bob's house armed and wearing a "tactical vest" which looked cool but made no pretense of being bullet-resistant. Vest guy ran three long wood screws into the front door and had painted S N I I on the front of the house with orange spray paint when the shooting started. I believe he was going for SNITCH before he was rudely interrupted.

Bob was in a wheelchair from falling off a cliff. That was his story, but it was widely believed he was thrown off and just wasn't saying.

Bob opened up by firing through the door with an AR, which caused vest guy to move back, where nephew could get a shot from the second floor with a Hi Point .45 carbine. Down he went, rifle still slung. Nephew (age 15) then went downstairs, out the un-screwed back door, and shot him in the head. Game over.

Not too surprisingly, no one went to jail on this one. The U.S. Attorney's Office (which prosecutes Indian Country felonies) was still mulling it over when the shotgun thing happened.

Bob and a different nephew were drinking it up when Larry showed up to buy some 40 ouncers. This rez was "dry" (HA!), so Bob augmented his income by bootlegging high-alcohol beers. Buy them for 4, sell them for 8. He was out, though, and Larry was unhappy. He walked out into a field (Bob lived in the deep rez, no other houses around) and supposedly began throwing rocks at Bob.

Bob's AR was sitting in our office, so he went to his Mossberg 835, a very long 12 gauge full of 3" #6s, handily leaning nearby. The first round hit Larry in the front at a range of about 30 yards. Larry turned to his right and took the next load in the side. He finished his twirl and took round three full in the back, a little lower than the first two. That was it for him - he hit the ground and found cover in a little depression, where he spent the night.

At one point, the not-a-killer nephew went out to check on him, and covered him with a tarp. In the morning, Larry limped to the road and got a ride to the hospital.

I was on call by this time, so this one was mine. I got a warrant for Bob and a search warrant for his house. I had dealt with Bob before and kind of liked him. I did the scene and hauled Bob to ABQ. I had to grab him by his belt to hoist him into my Tahoe and when I did he farted loudly, looked at me, and said: I'm sorry, Brad. I can't control that stuff.

The Marshals were less than happy with me when I told them I needed the whole 2-car sally port to unload Bob and his wheelchair at the courthouse. He was their problem after that.

Meanwhile, my tribal buddy was trying to interview Larry at the hospital. He took some truly wonderful pictures which showed there was no place on Larry's torso you could put a shot glass without covering a pellet hole. The shot of Larry's magnificently speckled posterior was my office screensaver until someone complained.

Larry recovered nicely. The grand jury indicted Bob for assault resulting in serious bodily injury. Larry went missing before trial and the charges were dropped after Bob sat in the pokey for a few months.

Less than a year later, Bob's little brother got out of prison and whacked Bob on the head with a machete, which did remarkably little damage. Bob low-crawled across the yard (good upper body strength) and tried to hide under a flipped over wheelbarrow. He thought he was ok, but little brother was whaling away at his unfeeling legs until somebody else tackled him.

Little brother's case wasn't mine either. He went back to prison, Bob eventually recovered but wasn't the same. By the time I left he was content with sitting on his porch and not shooting people.
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:49 PM
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That was a pretty interesting story... left me in suspense until the end
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:59 PM
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Bob opened up by firing through the door with an AR, which caused vest guy to move back, where nephew could get a shot from the second floor with a Hi Point .45 carbine. Down he went, rifle still slung. Nephew (age 15) then went downstairs, out the un-screwed back door, and shot him in the head. Game over.

Not too surprisingly, no one went to jail on this one.
It's legal in CO to shoot someone who's spray painting your house and then shoot him again even though he incapacitated? Wow, good to know.
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:12 PM
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Ok, I have a question.... how many rounds do any of you carry on your outside the house piece including extra mags..
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:16 PM
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It's legal in CO to shoot someone who's spray painting your house and then shoot him again even though he incapacitated? Wow, good to know.
It was New Mexico. And the U. S. Attorney’s office felt they couldn’t overcome a claim of self defense. The plan was apparently to seal the house and burn it down, though it was poorly thought out. The dead guy was also armed with an AR, and was well-known to wish Bob and crew harm. But with that big hole in his head, we’ll never know.

They never even considered charging the juvenile. He said he thought the guy was still moving around.

I know its hard to believe if you’ve never worked a rez. It’s probably as different as you can get from CA and still be in the same country. Thats why I don’t write a book.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:30 PM
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Why the empty chamber? Are you hoping for the pumping sound to have an effect?
I MUST SECOND, bigwheelzip's QUESTION......

IMHO YOUR WEAPON SHOULD HAVE A LOADED CHAMBER, AND A FULL MAG TUBE. IT SHOUD BE KEPT IN A READILY ACCESSIBLE LOCATION, WITH THE SAFETY ON......

RACKING THE SLIDE, IN THE FACE OF A HOME INVASION, MAY GIVE YOU SOME FALSE SENSE OF POWER--BUT--ALL YOU HAVE DONE IS TO ADVERTISE YOUR LOCATION, AND DIMINISH THE AMMO IN YOUR MAG TUBE, BY 1 ROUND.....

A BETTER TACTIC WOULD BE TO SEEK COVER. IN A POSITION THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO COVER THE POINT OF ENTRY. QUIETLY SLIP OFF YOUR SAFETY AND WAIT. ( IF TIME PERMITS. CALL 911. THEY WILL NOT GET THERE IN TIME TO PREVENT THIS CRIME, SO JUST HANG UP, AFTER YOU INFORM THEM THAT THERE IS A HOME INVASION, IN PROGRESS, AT YOUR ADDRESS) ......

THE ODDS ARE THAT THE POINT MAN, OF THIS INVASION, WILL BE THE ONE CARRYING A WEAPON. ONCE HE HAS GAINED ACCESS, GREET HIM WITH A LOAD OF BUCKSHOT. HIS CREW MAY ELECT TO STEP OVER HIS BODY, AND CONTINUE THEIR MISSION. IF SO, TREAT THEM TO THE SAME WARM WELCOME......

MOST LIKELY, THEY WILL ABORT. PERHAPS THEY WILL ATTEPT TO DRAG OFF THEIR FALLEN COMRADE, OR SIMPLY ABANDON HIM. PERHAPS, THROUGH SOME STROKE OF GOOD FORTUNE, THE POLICE WILL ACTUALLY SHOW UP IN TIME, TO APPREHEND ONE OR MORE OF THEM.....

WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT EMERGE FROM YOUR HIDING PLACE WITH YOUR WEAPON IN YOUR HANDS ! ! ! IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS THE HOMEOWNER. PUT YOUR WEAPON ON SAFE AND THROW IT OUT ON THE FLOOR. NOW SLOWLY EMERGE, WITH YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. COMPLY TO THE LETTER, WITH ANY INSTRUCTIONS THAT YOU ARE GIVEN BY THE RESPONDING OFFICERS. YOU COULD GET SHOT, IF YOU ARE PERCEIVED AS A THREAT.....

TO PREPARE FOR EVENTS OF THIS NATURE, PRACTICE TOPPING OFF YOUR MAGAZINE, WHILE KEEPING YOUR WEAPON IN THE KILL ZONE....
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:48 PM
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5 plus 1 is enough as long as more is on you. I prefer the mossberg 930 spx with 4 buck and 8 shots with my uspc 9mm as back up
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:38 PM
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I keep mine chamber empty because its safer that way, I carried one that way for years and am used to it, it takes no time to chamber a round, and Iím am not concerned about ďgiving away my positionĒ in my own house.

You hide-behind-the-bed guys must not have dogs.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:18 PM
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I know its hard to believe if youíve never worked a rez.
I guess I didn't catch that this was on a reservation. The rules and how they're interpreted are completely different there. You're right, it's different and most of us won't understand it.

You should write a book. You have a knack for story telling.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:25 PM
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I keep mine chamber empty because its safer that way, I carried one that way for years and am used to it, it takes no time to chamber a round, and Iím am not concerned about ďgiving away my positionĒ in my own house.
The reason for having a round chambered is more about being ready than concealment. The most common time for a shotgun to malfunction is during loading or cycling. I see it all the time at the Trap/Skeet/Sporting Clays range. If it can happen there, when it's calm and the stress is low, the chances of it happening under the threat of death is much greater.


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You hide-behind-the-bed guys must not have dogs.
Interesting turn of phrase, but even so, I don't understand how a dog changes the situation. If my 80lb GSD handles the situation, great. If she doesn't, my best chances are for the bad guy to come to me. I love my dog, but I love my family more. Barricading is better. In my mind, if the bad guy gets the TV and leaves and my family is all alive and well, this is not a bad thing. I can get another TV.

Truth is, I probably won't have to barricade because the dog's bark will probably keep any bad guy from ever attempting to break in.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:44 PM
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Your dog is probably smarter than mine. I can’t tell if he’s fighting with a Boko Haram hit squad or a raccoon, so I go and check it out before retreating to the safe room.

Just kidding - no safe room.
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:33 PM
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The reason for having a round chambered is more about being ready than concealment. The most common time for a shotgun to malfunction is during loading or cycling. I see it all the time at the Trap/Skeet/Sporting Clays range. If it can happen there, when it's calm and the stress is low, the chances of it happening under the threat of death
I see your point, but this just doesnít make my things to worry about list. Every police agency Iím aware of keeps their pump guns chamber-empty and it doesnít seem to have been a problem. Maybe on the trap range, though.
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:48 PM
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Home Defense Shotgun: Is 5+1 Enough? Home Defense Shotgun: Is 5+1 Enough? Home Defense Shotgun: Is 5+1 Enough? Home Defense Shotgun: Is 5+1 Enough? Home Defense Shotgun: Is 5+1 Enough?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Have you ever shot those? They hurt to shoot.
I shot 10 before buying more for the shelf. They didn't cause me any pain. The only shotgun shells that ever hurt me were magnum loads.
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