I thought that story sounded like New Orleans BTW I think that is still their motto. Down here that would be referred to as a Misdemeanor kidnapping. Story reminds me of that classic "The Ransom of Red Chief"

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Forum consigliere

I've had a few 'fans' in the years past that want a FTF visit when they got released.

I'm still careful....it's my nature.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I could not agree more. I have two 870's hidden in the house. You hit someone with #6, 7 or 8 bird shot from 5 to 10 feet, the wad might kill them. Plus, if two or more come in the house and you take out the first perp with a blast, unless the next guy in line is Rambo, they will probably injure each other heading back out the door they just came thru.

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Don Mundell

I see that you are an active/retired LEO. Did you carry "bird shot" in the shotgun in your unit? Probably not.
What is so different now that you would recommend that I use bird shot instead of buck shot of some size or another?

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Off the top of my head I recall reading about 2 home invasions where the homeowner used a shotgun, both involving 2 or 3 attackers and resolved with one shot. The attackers in both cases fled, IIRC. One involved an old lady using bird shot. They caught the suspects in that case. One of them was wearing a leather jacket and the shot didn't penetrate through. I don't know what the defender in the other case was using, though I believe he did wound one of the attackers.

While this is a very small sample size, I, personally, would not trust bird shot even at home defense distances. From what I've read, #1 or #4 buckshot seem to be recommended as being a good balance between effectiveness and mitigating the risk of overpenetration/penetrating walls.

I much prefer a carbine for a long gun; but in any case I just don't worry about having 5 gazillion rounds on my person. 6 Rounds in a shotgun would not concern me at all. (as long as it wasn't bird shot!)

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K & N S&W revolvers

His department doesn't get to tell him what to use at home . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Wait...There was a consensus????

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Because of the metric system?

126:7 Seems pretty clear.

then just get a recording of the "sound" and not bother with the trouble a firearm can bring.

Good lookin' guy, give him a scratch on the head from me.

My vote is no just because most home invasions are multiple attackers & a 12ga runs out pretty damn quick, though very effective in those first 6rds. So a few spare shells in the butt stock would be nice. People think you can not miss with a 12ga but a riot choke spreads about 1" every 3ft or so. So down a hall or across a 20ft room, 6" spread means you can miss or just peripheral hit in a rush.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The reason is, at the Academy where I went, we were told birdshot was preferred in home defense. Buckshot would go thru a wall and kill or injure occupants in the next room. I carried #4 Shot in my 870. It was my own gun.

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Don Mundell

If you can't stop attackers with 8 rounds, you got a problem. I love talking with new LEO recruits when they say, I have 14 rounds plus two spare mags. If you need 30 plus rounds, better call for back up.

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Don Mundell

The old LEO rounds were 00 buck shot. They could penetrate car doors and still take out a Perp. They were also effective at 50 yards. Show me a house that provides a 50 yard indoor range....

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

IN KALI MAYBE, cuz you know them "multiple attackers", are NOT there to just grab the goods & get out. "They" are ALWAYS there to commit violence, AND they carpool it so as to leave a smaller carbon footprint.

If you expect to repel a squad of armed "home invaders", what are the chances you aren't going to be overwhelmed by superior numbers and weapon count, no matter how many rounds/shells your "home defense weapon" may be able to hold before having to again be loaded? Especially if caught by surprise?

Granted, none of the areas where we've lived in the last 40 years were normally subject to roving hordes of home invaders, and the rural community where we presently live is pretty much off the map for that sort of thing (unless you're dealing drugs, etc), so I have a somewhat lessened concern about such things.

As far as the shotgun loaded with "bird shot"? No personal opinion, but i do have a concern regarding misses and potential perforation of structure walls by any rounds fired (hence concern for angle/elevation of shots fired and fields of potential fire).

I once professionally met a fellow who was arrested for an outstanding attempted murder warrant (if I remember right, as it was a long time ago), and who had been shot by a local officer within a backyard during an attempted escape. The suspect was in the process of climbing over a fence, and the shotgun the officer had grabbed (from a patrol car) had been loaded with some type of bird shot (unknowingly to him, he claimed).

BTW, if you think the loading of birdshot into issued shotguns doesn't sometimes occur (instead of the issued or authorized buckshot), you haven't worked around enough cops. Cops may "run out" of issued buckshot, or have it "go missing" from their assigned veh, and quietly substitute some 12GA shells that are "handy". I can even think of an instance where an issued 870 had to be brought to the armorer because the wrong gauge shells had been loaded into it and the mechanism locked up.

Anyway, this suspect had been hit across hit his upper chest & shoulder by a LOT of birdshot. A very large area of bandaged wounds. He told me that it had caught him by complete surprise, and suddenly hurt so much that it caused him to lose his balance and fall off the fence, interfering with his attempted escape, allowing the cops to catch him before he could get away. He wasn't a big guy, either. Fortunately for the cops, the suspect had been unarmed, so he had no way to shoot at the cops.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

No kidding! I was doing shotgun quals for a bunch of Indian Country agents once, and one guy pulled out his duty 870 and touched off his first round from the 50. It was supposed to be a slug, but the target was lightly dusted with random tiny holes. I looked at the empty and it was 7 1/2 shot, which we definitely don't issue. He laughed and said - oh ****, it's bird season!

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Don't show up that often these days but I made the right choice of purchasing S&W mag extensions when they were available yeras ago for my two S&W police M-3000, 2 and 3 shell for 18 and 20" blue and parked barrels. Keep them in storage since I feel the 5 and 1 rounds is quite adequate.

OK, we have that covered. Is it time to talk about bears again?

Is that Terry Nugent, Ted's brother? Sorry, a bad joke carried over from some other recent threads. Lol.

same set up here
"Cruiser Ready" w 00
Tec-star side saddle w 6 more

Everyone worrys about capacity,perps shoot back,chances are if you do not put them down with one or two well placed shots ,you will be shot to. Capacity means pray and spray.

That's not true... capacity means you are prepared for a worse case scenario .. sorry to disagree.. I always think of the police officer that got into a gun battle with perps and ran through some insane number of rounds and magazines.. wish I could pull that story up .. just remember reading it and makes me think every time I "load" up ...

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Jack C

Ok, I just found the article about the PO that now carries 145 rds when he goes on duty. He got into a shootout with one guy that took 14 rds of 45acp and continued to engage the officer.. check this out if you want to know why I prefer to carry as much ammo as I can, whether it be in my HD shotgun or any of my carry guns ...

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

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Jack C

...or .380 for self-defense? LOL

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Stay protected my friends.

I was thinking cougar thread.

Cougars? I like cougars. Especially the ones hanging around the bar at closing time.

Personally,I wouldn't want to be the person in front of a 12 ga.shotgun round being fired.I own 4, 12 ga. shotguns.

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Life is short,live it fully.

Your not a cop,but home owner. A few well placed shots is all that's needed. We should worry more about a heart attack that will kill you instead of Rambo web nonsense.

At least you got a little right .... Ahhh Rambo, one of my favorite characters.. I'll keep my KSG shotgun with 22 rds in the tubes ... Yeeee ha

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Jack C

I also have a 30-30 in the mix along with 12g and .44 special.

Hi OP and everybody,
I just want to state something that I think is crucial...

Shotguns are not drop safe. Even with the safety on. That is the main reason why "cruiser ready" (mag full, chamber empty, hammer down) is the standard way of keeping it stored.

What's more likely? A home invasion or you or a loved one accidentally dropping your shotgun while at home?

The added "tactical advantage" of the loaded chamber (in a shotgun) really does not justify the risk.

--

Oh, and to answer the OP... I think 5+1 of 12 gauge are more than enough for defending your home. (And that comes from someone who lives in a sh***y third-world country. Go figure.

I have reconsidered, I no longer feel my over under is adequate. Where can a fella get a good pair of belt fed 10 gauge guns?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

What do you mean?

I guess if you dropped it (you'd really have to slam it though) on the muzzle, it might fire. Otherwise I just don't see what your concern is.

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Freedom isn't free.

Virtually all pump and semi-auto shotguns have trigger blocking safeties. This increases the possibility of AD as a result of the sear releasing the hammer in some manner independent of the trigger.

I haven't personally checked the triggers groups to see exactly how that would work, but looking at a similar, non-shotgun trigger group, it would seem to be in the possible but unlikely area.

Frankly, the cruiser safe system is to keep the trigger group springs unloaded and the chamber empty to prevent stray fingers from removing the light bars from vehicles-at minimum. A deliberate gross action to bring the firearm into ready status is preferable.

BTW, in the Sgt Gramins incident noted above the hit total was 17. 14 in the body & extremities, 3 in the head. The dude kept fighting despite hits to both lungs, one kidney, the liver, the heart and 2 in the head.

In 1975 or there abouts, an old man came into a store with a shotgun that he wanted to sell. I was the only other person in the store, so I said to the owner go take care of the old man. I was just gawking at the cases anyway. Well the old man whipped out a Model 97 riot gun( a true cyl. stamped bbl). The old man said what local police dept it came from, and sold it for 125.00. He even said how he sent it back to Winchester for reconditioning. The gun was still on the counter, and the old man was gone and I said to the owner I want the gun. not really knowing what it was, but it sure was pretty. The owner said ok, I will make a quick 10.00 and you can have it for 135.00. I grabbed it so fast it got windburn. It is still today one of my prized posessions, and it is loaded with a tube full of # 2 shot, with xtra extra shells handy and a 1911

Hi sir,
That's exactly my concern. By design, the pump action shotgun is not drop safe. All the safety does is block the trigger. Not the sear and not the firing pin.

Is it unlikely it will go off if dropped? I think so.
Is it possible?.. Yes. Unlikely, but possible.

At the end of the day, life is full of risks and dangers. We all choose which we accept and which not.

Me not preferring a loaded chamber on a shotgun is just a personal opinion, of course.

If I were to do that I would needlessly eject the round in the chamber out on to the ground.

Back in the days of gangs of bankrobbers roaming the country my uncle got kidnapped to serve as the getaway driver for one of thos gangs. He was 12. The cops shoot to kill the driver if they follow a getaway car because you get all the bad guys if you take out the driver so the gang used someone they didn't care about to drive. They picked a young kid apparently because they believed a kid would take more drastic steps to stay alive and was likely to have really good reflexes.

My uncle escaped from the gang by crawling out the window of a gas station bathroom. He made his way back home. The gang knew where he lived and they wanted him back. He was a trained and proven driver.

They came to the farm looking for him. They parked a the bottom of the hill near my grandparent's home about 50 yards away I guess. My grandmother came out of the house to confront them. She told them my uncle was inside and so was grandpa and grandpa had a shotgun. Most likely it was a single shot given the time period and the guns farmers owned.

She told them they could go in after my uncle but they could be sure that all of them would not come back out. They thought it over and they left the farm.

A shotgun will scare the living daylights out of anyone with a brain. If one intruder gets shot by one it is very unlikely any more will want the same treatment.

I've switched from a 5+1 Remington 870 to an AR for HD these days. 30 rounds in a hurry will deal even with the gang of drug dealers that live up the hill from me and don't like me at all. One threatened to kill me at least 30 times one day. But they know I'm heavily armed and I practice shooting - a lot. I give a demonstration of what is in store for them in case they ever decide to rush my house. I have a safe zone where I will be hiding. There is a kill zone they will have to go through to get to me. I will be protected by several large appliances lined up in a row. I will have just enough room to fire at anyone that appears in my sights.

They can steal everything I own. I can buy more stuff. But I will protect the lives of my wife and myself. I have a grade A watch dog too so sneaking up won't be easy. He barks a lot if someone approaches our house in the woods which is off by itself. I chose an AR because there is a wall of dirt behind my kill zone and a mile of hillside to the nearest house that direction.

A good plan makes up for liabilities with equipment. I used to count on a shotgun in the same plan but there are a lot of those thugs up the hill and who knows what might come up.

There's an old saying that if six rounds won't get the job done, the problem probably isn't with the ammo capacity. Especially with a shotgun.

After the seeing this video, and the results of a WOMAN being shot at almost point blank range, I could never justify using birdshot as a defensive load.

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Stay protected my friends.

Using birdshot and the sound of racking a pump gun are the two most prevalent defensive myths that make me just shake my head and wonder why they persist.

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Freedom isn't free.

I've seen morgue photos where birdshot proved lethal...but the fatal shot was delivered at near point-blank range...at an optimal point in the upper torso.

I've also seen many ER photos of people who survived close range shots with birdshot...or who took a near point-blank range shot to the shoulder/arm as they were moving against the shooter and not standing stationary like a paper target.

For rooms/distances in excess of 20 feet or more, I wouldn't want to deliver a nasty flesh wound to an armed intruder. It may work sometimes, or it may not...

That is why after years of teaching marksmanship and room clearing to include terminal ballistics I load birdshot for when I'm hunting birds. My defensive shotgun has #4 buck in the magazine, 00 buck in the side saddle, and slugs in the speed feed stock.

As a Platoon Sergeant I took about a dozen Mossberg 590s with me over two deployments that both myself and my Marines carried...We were NEVER issued birdshot, always 00 buck for a reason. Even had a few non-lethal rounds, but those never got loaded.

Any shot from any gun can be lethal. Remember, in the video posted above, the shooter had already killed one person before he got in that room. Chances are he used birdshot for that too. The point about birdshot against a human is that it's a low percentage stopping round.

I know a retired police officer in NC. He was at a situation where a guy had a 12ga pointed at him and his partner. His partner took a 12ga round of 00 Buck in the mid section. He didn't die. He stood there for a moment more surprised than anything. So, even 00 Buck requires shot placement.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have an 11-87, extended mag + Wilson combat parts with a mix of 00 buck & slugs. A "Boom"is all a perp will hear

Good man!!

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Freedom isn't free.

Well this thread has got me thinking.

I know I shoulden't have taken down that old TV antenna from the roof because of it's proven success record of protecting my home from flying saucers.

It just seemed like a wise plan to live exactly one tank of gas away from the large metro area....like on the day that the checks don't hit the mailbox.

Ya know it is sort of a PITA for the mailman when he has to blow the horn way down there at the gate but the dogs have taught him that's the best plan when he does have to make a delivery.

The sign about"being invited" is a polite way of keeping the Bible slingers out there on the hard road too. Not that I have anything against them, as long as they are out there and I'm up here, we get along just fine.

I do realize that everybody ain't blessed like I am. See, all of this is all just quite by accident. I really didn't plan multiple layers of defense and long flat KZ's around the perimeter of my pad.....all quite by accident.

Quite a lot of stuff has to go wrong before somebody can get to my door but now that the TV antenna is gone.....

My home defense shotgun is an old single shot 20 gauge break top that I use to kill rattlesnakes in the yard......I wouldn't kill the rattlesnakes but I do worry about the dogs.

My neighbors?
We call each other before just dropping in too. If that rule is violated we all know not to get out of our truck until somebody comes out to greet us, it's just neighborly.

I've shot chickens from 12 feet away with bird shot and they didn't even notice. They were gamecocks but still. They were getting into my tomatoes and my neighbor, who owned them, told me to shoot them if I saw them there. I did for all the good it did me.

I also shot a rabid fox, that was at my front door, with bird shot 3 times and it didn't notice either.

Bird shot is for birds and it isn't always effective against them. It works on squirrels too but who wants to eat a squirrel filled with bird shot.

I've owned a shotgun pretty much all my life. We had a trap range in our back yard when I was a kid and people came from hundreds of miles away to shoot there. Trap ranges were rare in those days where I lived. I know what shotguns will and won't do. If you want to stop a human use something besides bird shot. If you shoot someone point blank chances are they will be hurt badly. But bird shot patterns expand quickly. You don't get the kind of damage you might expect if your target isn't close.