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Old 03-30-2018, 08:30 AM
VaTom VaTom is offline
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Default Dog Attack in Downtown - Sometimes you cant wait for authorities

Yesterday this happen in our area. I like dogs but this is a bizarre incident that was stopped by a bystander with a gun.

Dog shot after attacking at least two people in downtown Roanoke | Roanoke News | roanoke.com
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:01 AM
MattyD380 MattyD380 is offline
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I love dogs, too. But the only time I've ever fired a gun under duress (my 6904, actually), was when my dog was attacked by a huge Shepherd and a Rottweiler in the woods. A warning shot ended the scuffle... luckily I didn't have to kill the dogs. But I would have, to protect my dog.

I think the guy did the right thing. That dog was a clear danger. Probably more the fault of the owner, though, than the dog itself.
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:44 AM
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Ok i know this may sound stupid but, why did they take the mans gun. What will it accomplish. What if he had used a stick to beat the dog to death. Would they have taken the stick. I doubt they need to prove he used the gun. It was not an illegal act.
I would say that it would be an illegal search and seizure. What if he had been Concealed Carry but did not use the gun. Used a stick. I'll bet they would have still taken his gun. I'm just thinking out loud
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jhnttrpp View Post
Ok i know this may sound stupid but, why did they take the mans gun. What will it accomplish. What if he had used a stick to beat the dog to death. Would they have taken the stick. I doubt they need to prove he used the gun. It was not an illegal act.
I would say that it would be an illegal search and seizure. What if he had been Concealed Carry but did not use the gun. Used a stick. I'll bet they would have still taken his gun. I'm just thinking out loud
The police took the gun because it is illegal to fire a gun in the city. It was not an illegal search or seizure. No doubt the prosecutor's office will consider the incident justified, not place any charges and the gun will be returned. Many options were used to control the dog before the guy with the gun showed up which will go to the benefit of the guy with the gun. Lesson here is the protection of yourself is paramount and the protection of another will be looked at with scrutiny. Your gun will be taken by the police which has been discussed here recently. They don't care if it is a high dollar customized gun or otherwise. CCW accordingly.
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jhnttrpp View Post
Ok i know this may sound stupid but, why did they take the mans gun. What will it accomplish. What if he had used a stick to beat the dog to death. Would they have taken the stick. I doubt they need to prove he used the gun. It was not an illegal act.
I would say that it would be an illegal search and seizure. What if he had been Concealed Carry but did not use the gun. Used a stick. I'll bet they would have still taken his gun. I'm just thinking out loud

That's standard procedure during any investigation. When I say "Investigation" it doesn't mean the man, (the shooter) is under "investigation", it basically means that the detectives working the case will gather facts, and make a decision if anyone broke the law. In this case, it appears to be a clear cut example of justified shooting. The dog owner had a history with the animal in the past and the dog was clearly a danger to the public. He'll get his gun back in the end I'm sure on that...
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:31 AM
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That's standard procedure during any investigation. When I say "Investigation" it doesn't mean the man, (the shooter) is under "investigation", it basically means that the detectives working the case will gather facts, and make a decision if anyone broke the law. In this case, it appears to be a clear cut example of justified shooting. The dog owner had a history with the animal in the past and the dog was clearly a danger to the public. He'll get his gun back in the end I'm sure on that...
Yes he probably will get his gun back....probably after some time, money and a lawyer.
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Old 03-30-2018, 11:00 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Probably have to petition the court to get a order for his gun to be returned.
And if the investigating agency can produce (find) it from the evidence vault.

And it could wind up being less money out of pocket to just buy another gun.

.
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Old 03-30-2018, 11:16 AM
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Default "No bad dogs just bad owners"

Quote by the late Barbara Woodhouse, "There are no bad dogs, just bad owners" and that folks is a truism one can see on a daily basis. Owning a dog does not end with acquiring a dog. If all the folks that start with the good intention by "rescuing" a dog and then expect the dog to train itself would think twice and just not, we would have a better world of human/dog interaction. I encounter oblivious dog owner behavior on a daily walk with my own dog and it has gotten so bad with unwanted encounters I have begun carrying pepper spray which if sprayed properly would be directed at the owner and not the dog. A dog needs more than just love people, in most cases they crave having a leader a simple fact most dog owners have forgotten. Do the right thing and work with your dog, you will both be better for it and so will society, Sorry about the rant.
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:28 PM
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Everyone knows that four legged threats are far more common on the city/town streets than two legged threats. This is exactly why I revived my dormant firearm hobby after 24 years, soon after I started walking six miles per day in nice residential neighborhoods in a nice town. Every 20,000 thousand blocks I walk in nice residential neighborhoods, I have to do a defensive display. This is once every 5.5 months. Every 80,000 blocks, a defensive discharge. Local law persons says I can avoid legal trouble by choosing to go to the hospital first, instead of choosing to get into legal trouble to avoid a certain trip to the hospital. My reply: I feel instant sheer terror when dogs charge at me. The terror is not caused by having to face you, sir; nor having to face the city attorney, nor the jury nor the judge. The sheer terror is caused by huge fear of having to go to the hospital. If a dog is traveling at high velocity directly at me with clear intent to immediately threaten me with loss of life or limb, I am going to yank when it gets within 25 feet of me, and crank within ten feet of me. Dogs run at 20 feet per half a second. When I have just enough time to defend myself is when I am going to defend myself. Dog owners think I am limited to boomerangs, air horns, sticks, irritating spray. They think wrong. The problem with pepper spray is that the dog has to come to a cognitive decision that the irritant is not worth the reward of the target, when it is adrenalin charged. Instead, I just want to stop the threat now, when I am ambush attacked with just enough tenths of a second to do so.
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jhnttrpp View Post
What if he had used a stick to beat the dog to death. Would they have taken the stick.
Yes, they would have taken the stick or any other tool used. That's a standard part of any investigation; control the evidence.
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Old 03-30-2018, 01:22 PM
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Every 20,000 thousand blocks I walk in nice residential neighborhoods, I have to do a defensive display. This is once every 5.5 months. Every 80,000 blocks, a defensive discharge. Local law persons says I can avoid legal trouble by choosing to go to the hospital first, instead of choosing to get into legal trouble to avoid a certain trip to the hospital.
I would walk somewhere else. And also stop telling people online. Especially the "defensive display" part. That's kind of bizarre if you're talking about a dog, and pretty much a prosecutor's dream.

This isn't the first time this has come up, dude. A gun isn't a license to make bad decisions. Yes, rah-rah-rah, this is America and I should be allowed to walk wherever I want. I still don't walk through such fine local attractions as Arbor Hill or Crossgates Mall, because such a thing is frankly foolish. Having to draw a gun is a loss, and not something to be proudly boasting about on the interwebz.

One of these days, you're going to screw up, and a jury's going to nail you to a wall when they hear that after all these incidents, and all the times police contacted you, you kept doing the same damn thing.

Either that, or you're just trolling. Which I would find easier to believe than somebody being this bad at learning a lesson.
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Old 03-30-2018, 04:35 PM
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Recently moved into girlfriend's apartment complex. She has a small dog. There are 2 different female residents with large aggressive dogs. One of them was dragged by her dog when it saw my girlfriend's little dog and tried to go after it. Easiest thing to do was for both of us be aware when we walk the dog. See the 2 big dogs in question, turn around and walk the other way...or go back inside and wait a few minutes. A small inconvenience to avoid a problem. Yes, I'm always carrying. But I know that's no reason to go out looking for a confrontation.

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Old 03-30-2018, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Probably have to petition the court to get a order for his gun to be returned.
And if the investigating agency can produce (find) it from the evidence vault.

And it could wind up being less money out of pocket to just buy another gun.

.
A good reason to be carrying a Glock and not your mint pre-model # anything.
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Old 03-30-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by raylan007 View Post
Quote by the late Barbara Woodhouse, "There are no bad dogs, just bad owners" and that folks is a truism one can see on a daily basis. Owning a dog does not end with acquiring a dog. If all the folks that start with the good intention by "rescuing" a dog and then expect the dog to train itself would think twice and just not, we would have a better world of human/dog interaction. I encounter oblivious dog owner behavior on a daily walk with my own dog and it has gotten so bad with unwanted encounters I have begun carrying pepper spray which if sprayed properly would be directed at the owner and not the dog. A dog needs more than just love people, in most cases they crave having a leader a simple fact most dog owners have forgotten. Do the right thing and work with your dog, you will both be better for it and so will society, Sorry about the rant.


Not all dogs can have their violent aggressive streak trained out of them.
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Old 03-30-2018, 05:54 PM
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Well said viceunit! Thatís why I donít carry a 3ĒSW LNIB, or m29.
Itís a Glock or sw compact. Been down that road, took a year to get mine back!
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Old 03-30-2018, 05:56 PM
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You're responsible for keeping your dog under control to the extent that it's not a threat to innocent third parties. I don't care if you use a fence, a leash or telekinesis.

If you fail in your LEGAL DUTY to control your animal, and it puts me in reasonable fear of being bitten, it's probably getting shot. I don't carry pepper spray and don't intend to start. I have to carry enough stuff as it is. I'm not Batman and don't wear a utility belt.

It's YOUR dog and YOUR responsibility. I neither know nor CARE whether there are any "bad dogs". If your dog tries to bite me, it's a threat and prima facia evidence of your failure as a dog owner. That's on YOU not me. If your dog has to suffer as a result, I can live with that.
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Old 03-30-2018, 06:11 PM
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I gave a neighbors dog a warning shot in my back yard, into the ground three feet short, as he growled and circled me. I told the "pet" owner that there would be no more warning shots.

I too like dogs btw.
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Old 03-30-2018, 06:33 PM
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I also like dogs. I have twice had to shoot dogs, both times pit bulls. One attacked me on the street, the other in my own yard. Not all serious threats go on two legs.
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Old 03-30-2018, 06:56 PM
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I would walk somewhere else. And also stop telling people online. Especially the "defensive display" part. That's kind of bizarre if you're talking about a dog, and pretty much a prosecutor's dream.

This isn't the first time this has come up, dude. A gun isn't a license to make bad decisions. Yes, rah-rah-rah, this is America and I should be allowed to walk wherever I want. I still don't walk through such fine local attractions as Arbor Hill or Crossgates Mall, because such a thing is frankly foolish. Having to draw a gun is a loss, and not something to be proudly boasting about on the interwebz.

One of these days, you're going to screw up, and a jury's going to nail you to a wall when they hear that after all these incidents, and all the times police contacted you, you kept doing the same damn thing.

Either that, or you're just trolling. Which I would find easier to believe than somebody being this bad at learning a lesson.
1. I already am walking somewhere else. Same thing, vicious dogs charging me at ambush range into my self defense zone, about once every 20,000 blocks/5.5 months.

2. Defensive display: That's what it's called when I am in immediate need to be immediately ready to use force to defend myself. It is legal.

3. I have posted about this matter in many forums. The people and the system in my town know exactly what I think and exactly how I am prepared to stop an immediate threat in self defense, because I have emphatically informed them.

4. What do I have to learn? The definition of learning is changing behavior. I have nothing to change; every time I walk the distance that is equal to one third of the distance across this country, in nice residential neighborhoods, I get ambush charged by vicious dogs. I post online about it, too.

5. I am not trolling. I am global moderator on the official forum of the worlds third largest anti-virus forum. It is an international forum, and I know exactly who is and who is not a troll, after eleven years of very busy moderating a very busy international forum.

Additionally, my X-frame 500 S&W magnum and X-frame 460 S&W magnum, two DW 1911's and stainless 45 Defender stay at home. My Micro 9 stays on my desk to keep documents from blowing away in the fan-driven breeze.
My 40 Shield loaded with factory (Underwood) ammo or G27 or G29 with factory (Underwood) ammo go out there in the real world with me.



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You're responsible for keeping your dog under control to the extent that it's not a threat to innocent third parties. I don't care if you use a fence, a leash or telekinesis.

If you fail in your LEGAL DUTY to control your animal, and it puts me in reasonable fear of being bitten, it's probably getting shot. I don't carry pepper spray and don't intend to start. I have to carry enough stuff as it is. I'm not Batman and don't wear a utility belt.

It's YOUR dog and YOUR responsibility. I neither know nor CARE whether there are any "bad dogs". If your dog tries to bite me, it's a threat and prima facia evidence of your failure as a dog owner. That's on YOU not me. If your dog has to suffer as a result, I can live with that.
I agree, plus 510 204.08
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:16 AM
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Yes, they would have taken the stick or any other tool used. That's a standard part of any investigation; control the evidence.
Maybe in Southern California they might ask for the "stick" but in my part of North Carolina I don't think anyone would be interested.
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:30 AM
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Mr. Richbuff,
your comment :

'2. Defensive display: That's what it's called when I am in immediate need to be immediately ready to use force to defend myself. It is legal.'

While this might be legal in a technical sense in your jurisdiction, it is brandishing in most places; however the larger point is this - you are, to use your own words - "defensively displaying" a firearm to an animal, and although I have met some intelligent dogs, most don't rise to the level of understanding beyond that of a three year old child.

In these confrontations, you are supposed to be smarter participant - your explanation of your actions doesn't exhibit that.
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:34 AM
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The police took the gun because it is illegal to fire a gun in the city. It was not an illegal search or seizure. No doubt the prosecutor's office will consider the incident justified, not place any charges and the gun will be returned. Many options were used to control the dog before the guy with the gun showed up which will go to the benefit of the guy with the gun. Lesson here is the protection of yourself is paramount and the protection of another will be looked at with scrutiny. Your gun will be taken by the police which has been discussed here recently. They don't care if it is a high dollar customized gun or otherwise. CCW accordingly.
I doubt that it is illegal to fire a gun in self defense, even within the city limits. So, as I said before, no illegal act was committed but his gun was taken.
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:36 AM
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It's kind've funny, because I walk and run all sorts of places, and have zero issues. And there are plenty of other people that walk and run similar distances, that don't have these problems.

Maybe dogs just hate you? Try a running club. Also, bacon-scented cologne may be a poor choice. Or perhaps, given that you draw and the dogs don't bite you, you're bad at speaking dog or prone to fits of hysterical overreacting.

Anyways, "defensive displays" are going to be referred to as brandishing out there in that "real world". Or at least, the real courtroom you're destined for. The "people and the system" having such lovely meetings with you means "known to local law enforcement".

These aren't the best euphemisms to have associated with you, by the way.

Oh, and all the regular people you've managed to make an impression upon are going to be labeled "witnesses" when you:

(A) screw up, or
(B) the locals just get sick and tired of you and decide to throw you under a bus.

The question isn't whether you are "justified" or "legally-allowed", it's that you're creating risk. Every time you have a dangerous encounter, you're at risk of losing. Every time you draw, you're at risk of going to jail. You're at risk of screwing up and shooting yourself. You're putting the people around you at risk of being shot. No matter how practiced or disciplined you are, the probability of screwing up is non-zero.

Ask yourself this: would you engage in this activity without a gun?

The premise is no different than "Should I visit the ATM at 3AM?" Sure, it would be nice if nobody mugged anyone, but pretending they don't and then acting outraged when they do is laughable.

Also

Quote:
5. I am not trolling. I am global moderator on the official forum of the worlds third largest anti-virus forum. It is an international forum, and I know exactly who is and who is not a troll, after eleven years of very busy moderating a very busy international forum.

Additionally, my X-frame 500 S&W magnum and X-frame 460 S&W magnum, two DW 1911's and stainless 45 Defender stay at home. My Micro 9 stays on my desk to keep documents from blowing away in the fan-driven breeze.
My 40 Shield loaded with factory (Underwood) ammo or G27 or G29 with factory (Underwood) ammo go out there in the real world with me.
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Old 03-31-2018, 01:32 AM
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Sad this had to happen. Bull terriers are usually sweet and gentle. This one must have not been in a very calm and submissive state.
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Old 03-31-2018, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jhnttrpp View Post
I doubt that it is illegal to fire a gun in self defense, even within the city limits. So, as I said before, no illegal act was committed but his gun was taken.
J--Paraphrasing Actual Lawyer Stuff, self defense is an affirmative defense. When you have any kind of a defensive firearm use, what you're saying is that you indeed committed X crime, but that your actions were necessary in order to prevent some kind of harm to yourself. The state self defense statutes lay out what kind of harms you're justified in using deadly force to prevent, and what you're required to do beforehand (for instance, duty to retreat).

The police then investigate the crime that you've committed, as well as the related circumstances, and collect evidence--in most cases, your gun is going to be included in that, along with your holster, other carry gear, etc. Depending on the situation, the location, etc, some other stuff happens, and then the district attorney or equivalent decides what to do next.

Option A is that they decide not to do anything.

Option B is that they decide to convene a grand jury, where they present evidence and the grand jury decides whether to charge you. Which sucks, by the way. It's like going to trial without the state being willing to stick their necks out and accuse you.

Option C is that they decide to charge you.

Once Option A or C happens, or the grand jury decides not to charge you, or you get tried (and presumably not receive a guilty verdict), and the subject of your brandishing/shooting gets their due process, then you can get your gun back.

So in the situation you're referring to--yes, a crime was committed, and the police are now investigating the affirmative defense of the accused shooter.

Or are you approaching Wise_A levels of sarcasm in lampooning all that great "due process" we enjoy? The accused is entitled to due process--whether he wants it or not!

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Old 03-31-2018, 01:58 PM
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Probably have to petition the court to get a order for his gun to be returned.
And if the investigating agency can produce (find) it from the evidence vault.

And it could wind up being less money out of pocket to just buy another gun.
And there's also a good chance the evidence number will be deeply scratched into the frame with a 16-penny nail.
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Old 03-31-2018, 02:43 PM
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Follow up. Pistol has been returned to bystander. ,380. No charges for shooting the dog. Charges being investigated against owner. Check Roanoke.com for today's story.
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Old 03-31-2018, 03:34 PM
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Maybe in Southern California they might ask for the "stick" but in my part of North Carolina I don't think anyone would be interested.
They don't collect evidence for an on-going investigation in NC?

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I doubt that it is illegal to fire a gun in self defense, even within the city limits. So, as I said before, no illegal act was committed but his gun was taken.
It's not legal until they've determined it was self-defense. Until that happens, it's a criminal investigation.

In this case the DA seems to have decided it was justified. Good for the shooter.
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Old 03-31-2018, 03:40 PM
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I've used a broom handle, shovel blade, water hose and a pair of cowboy boots to save my skin from them. Thank heavens for those boots; one of them almost when down his throat. I had to do a police report on that one as the neighbor lady sicked her shepard on me.

Haven't had to use a firearm yet.
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Old 03-31-2018, 04:19 PM
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I've used a broom handle, shovel blade, water hose and a pair of cowboy boots to save my skin from them. Thank heavens for those boots; one of them almost when down his throat. I had to do a police report on that one as the neighbor lady sicked her shepard on me.

Haven't had to use a firearm yet.
Mike, Did They take your boot for evidence
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Old 03-31-2018, 04:30 PM
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Richbuff may live in a place where the restraint of dogs that should be is not valued; if you don't judging his actions is not based on comparable circumstances and reality and flawed as a result. I have lived in both, so I get it.

Likewise the concept of "brandishing" - that legal term and concept may exist in some places, but does not in others. I've drawn on dogs, and no one who mattered ever batted an eye - in part because I was the complainant. (The A-H did a couple times, and did not like the LE response at all.)

As for seizing the firearm, one hundred percent predictable, and utterly clownshoes. As I have pointed out more than once on this forum and others, and based on and applying legal analysis to the real world analysis of forum member Nyeti, an experienced cop and OIS investigator, the firearm is almost never evidence. Most of the time, the seizure practice is based on ignorance of the law.
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Old 03-31-2018, 05:29 PM
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Ok i know this may sound stupid but, why did they take the mans gun. What will it accomplish. What if he had used a stick to beat the dog to death. Would they have taken the stick. I doubt they need to prove he used the gun. It was not an illegal act.
I would say that it would be an illegal search and seizure. What if he had been Concealed Carry but did not use the gun. Used a stick. I'll bet they would have still taken his gun. I'm just thinking out loud
I stand by my original comment. The dog first attacked a women holding a baby. A man beat him off of her with his cane, he bit the man with the cane. Someone sprayed it with pepper spray until it let go and everyone ran for cover. He bit a man's shoe that tried to kick him out of the door way. The dog then attached the next man he came in contact with. At that point another man ran to his car got his gun and shot the dog.
The police did not confiscate the cane, the pepper spray, or the shoe. All used in self defense. They took the gun. It was used in defense.
My lament and the reason for my post was why are we looked at as criminal just because we have a gun. The man with the cane was a hero. The person with pepper spray was a hero. The man that pulled the door shut and kicked at the dog is a hero. The man with the gun,, well he's my hero too.

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Old 03-31-2018, 05:48 PM
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I hear you, but you're not looking at the whole thing. It's not illegal to use pepper spray or a cane or a door. It is illegal to fire a gun within the city limits. I don't find it unreasonable to hold the gun for evidence until they determine if it really was in self-defense.
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:39 PM
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I made be reading this wrong, but my dogs don't go out of the house if there carrying. Hence no problems bullying others on the street.
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:47 PM
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I hear you, but you're not looking at the whole thing. It's not illegal to use pepper spray or a cane or a door. It is illegal to fire a gun within the city limits. I don't find it unreasonable to hold the gun for evidence until they determine if it really was in self-defense.
Oh I hear you. Guilty of a crime until proven innocent. Some cities specifically state it's illegal to fire a gun in the city "except" when it is defense of ones self or another. No one gets charged if it is in self defense because it is not illegal. They wrote it that way out of wisdom. To take the ambiguity out of it.
In this instance it did not become legal the next day just because the DA declared it so. The DA made his declaration that it was a legal action because it was legal from the very first moment.

It is no different than if it occurred in an unincorporated area of the county.

The officer more than likely was responding to a 911 call of people being attacked by a dog not of shots fired. Read carefully the dog was looking for his 5th victim. He was sent to serve and protect. To stop a dog attack. There is no snark intended in that expression. Someone else took care of the dog issue. Thankfully the City of Roanoke has quickly returned the gun and everything is back to normal. I'm all done. Thanks for listening.
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Old 03-31-2018, 10:49 PM
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Clearly you didn't understand what I said.
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:52 PM
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I think if I was anticipating so many attacks on my safety from dogs, I would have a plan to use before shooting. Maybe carry some treats.

Shooting peoples' dogs, justified or not, is a great way to spread hate and discontent. For some unknown reason people seem to consider pets as part of their family and form strong bonds with them.

If I found out the man who shot my dog had been pointing his gun or shooting dogs around town every 6 months, I can't imagine it would make the situation better.
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Old 04-01-2018, 01:56 AM
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I think if I was anticipating so many attacks on my safety from dogs, I would have a plan to use before shooting. Maybe carry some treats.

Shooting peoples' dogs, justified or not, is a great way to spread hate and discontent.
Letting your dog run loose and injure or kill people is no way to win friends either.

I would much rather shoot your aggressive dog than be bitten.

If you put people in the position of reasonably believing that they need to shoot your dog, do you REALLY love it all that much?



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Old 04-01-2018, 07:18 AM
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Clearly you didn't understand what I said.
Agree to disagree
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Old 04-01-2018, 08:35 AM
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All you big tough ready at a moments notice to kill a dog, I hope you all have more common sense than what you portray across these boards.

When it comes to dogs, it really helps to be a DOG PERSON. If you don't like dogs, are never around dogs, and especially don't UNDERSTAND dogs, then I"m going to say your shoot first ask questions later will probably get you in trouble sooner or later.

Just because a dog runs in your direction, viciously barks at you, or BOTH, doesn't mean the dog will do anything. I know a little sheltie that will run up on you barking with "destruction" but is too scared to make contact. You going to shoot that little sheltie because it strikes "fear" in you?

What about the German Shepherd in my yard that will immediately start barking at a stranger (scarily) and even run toward the stranger staying within the perimeter of my yard (won't leave perimeter), you going to shoot it because it strikes "fear" in you? Even though it won't leave the yard and won't bite or make contact? How do you know it's trained like that? You don't.

The point being, is your "fear" or "perceived threat" ACTUALLY a threat? It's not that easy of a question/answer for the reasons I mention.

I'm sorry, but I can take a bite to the forearm before I put an animal down, or if the dog isn't big enough to pose life threatening injuries then surely I'm not going to do anything to it, regardless of how "mean" or "scary" it may be. The only time would be extremely large aggressive dogs that may put me in "fight" mode. Although, if you really understand dogs most situations can be de-escalated or avoided. However, most "dog people" don't even truly understand dogs. The rest of the populace I find to be completely unhinged when it comes to dogs and interacting with dogs. There is a reason Ceasar Milan can train dogs that nobody else can even approach.

Sounds like too much living in fear for some. I'm far more concerned about 2 legged threats, much harder to deal with.

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Old 04-01-2018, 09:05 AM
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I doubt that it is illegal to fire a gun in self defense, even within the city limits. So, as I said before, no illegal act was committed but his gun was taken.
Every death certificate from every self defense shooting I've ever dealt with stated that the cause of death was "homicide," which is defined as "death at the hands of another . . . "
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Old 04-01-2018, 09:17 AM
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Y'all need to read the whole story, all the way to the end:

Dog shot after attacking at least two people in downtown Roanoke | Roanoke News | roanoke.com

No one, at least no one sane, likes killing domestic animals. In this case, however, the shooting was 100% justified, and IMO the shooter acted carefully and with great restraint.
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Old 04-01-2018, 09:27 AM
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I hear you, but you're not looking at the whole thing. It's not illegal to use pepper spray or a cane or a door. It is illegal to fire a gun within the city limits. I don't find it unreasonable to hold the gun for evidence until they determine if it really was in self-defense.
Can you show me where it is illegal to use a gun within city limits for self defense?
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:48 AM
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Quote by the late Barbara Woodhouse, "There are no bad dogs, just bad owners" and that folks is a truism one can see on a daily basis.
That sounds all fine and dandy until the family pet, raised from a puppy, suddenly one day turns and rips open the throat of one's two-year-old daughter.

It happens, even with good owners. Behind every cute little Pug are the genes of a wolf.
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:55 AM
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Dog owner holding snarling, unhappy dog back at the door:

"oh, he doesn't bite, he's just playing . . ."

Me:

"He's got teeth, don't he?"
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:00 AM
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Letting your dog run loose and injure or kill people is no way to win friends either.

I would much rather shoot your aggressive dog than be bitten.

If you put people in the position of reasonably believing that they need to shoot your dog, do you REALLY love it all that much?
I'm not saying don't shoot when you think a dog is going to inflict great bodily harm on you. I'm saying that if you anticipate as many dog attacks as one of the previous members posted about, then you would be wise to have a plan to deal with dogs other than immediately shooting. Most humans are smarter than dogs. We should use that to our advantage.
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:02 PM
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FWIW - while there are dogs that may seem dangerous to uninitiated, there are also plenty who flat out are dangerous. Being dangerous on the owner's property to those who don't belong there is not a problem, but if they get loose, that's a big problem. My avatar was utterly dangerous to strangers, which was not a problem on our property under the law here. HOWEVER: we had a padlocked 6' fence, so any entry into that area was already a crime and and also a complete defense to a dog bite incident. OTOH, we also knew that if he got out, the odds are he would end up dead. (A 20 pound dog, unless one is physically frail, can be addressed with a kick or series of them ... one of 125 pounds, as Bozo was - you are screwed unless a very high level martial artist or ... carrying a gun.)

Another side issue - the legal issue of firing a gun within the limits of a city will vary from city to city. It is also the least important consideration in any such event. I have spent a large part of my professional life in a courtroom and a criminal and civil prosecutor. (We have both roles in WA.) Any prosecutor who charges a person for using a firearm in self-defense in violation of such a city ordinance is a disgrace and should be disbarred. If I experienced that, I would take every action lawfully possible to ruin that prosecutor's career and the rest of their life. Tolerance of ill-doers is as bad as being one.
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:07 PM
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When it comes to dogs, it really helps to be a DOG PERSON. If you don't like dogs, are never around dogs, and especially don't UNDERSTAND dogs, then I"m going to say your shoot first ask questions later will probably get you in trouble sooner or later.
  1. I have NO DUTY AT ALL to be a "dog person". Love them or hate them, I have ZERO duty toward them beyond not actively abusing or provoking them. Walking down a public thoroughfare, or standing some place I have a legal right to be, ESPECIALLY my own property is NOT abusing or provoking them.
  2. EVERY dog owner has a LEGAL DUTY to control his animal(s) such that they are not a danger to innocent third parties.
  3. I don't need to "understand" your dog. You need to CONTROL your dog. If you can't, somebody else will do it for you, maybe with an M1911.
  4. If your sixteen year old son pulls a knife or a gun and tries to rob me, the law says I don't need to be a "thug person". The LAW says that if he puts me in an immediate and credible fear of life and limb, and I cannot withdraw IN PERFECT SAFETY (and that leaves aside "stand your ground" laws), I have the right to shoot him until he's no longer a threat. Are you telling me I have to risk life and limb to protect a DOG where I wouldn't have to to protect a PERSON?
Let me make this perfectly clear:

I don't love YOUR dog.

I love my limbs and my life.

One of those is going to come first, ten times out of ten.
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:13 PM
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I'm not saying don't shoot when you think a dog is going to inflict great bodily harm on you. I'm saying that if you anticipate as many dog attacks as one of the previous members posted about, then you would be wise to have a plan to deal with dogs other than immediately shooting. Most humans are smarter than dogs. We should use that to our advantage.
The single most important plan relevant to this discussion is your plan for CONTROLLING your dog.

My plan for getting chased or bitten by your dog is as nonexistent as my plan for what to do if bigfoot sideswipes my parked car with a flying saucer while he's intoxicated.
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cmort666 View Post
The single most important plan relevant to this discussion is your plan for CONTROLLING your dog.

My plan for getting chased or bitten by your dog is as nonexistent as my plan for what to do if bigfoot sideswipes my parked car with a flying saucer while he's intoxicated.
I think this is a discussion about how to deal with loose dogs showing aggression. (I'm personally not a dog owner.) I have no problems with dogs being shot when appropriate.

My point is that responsible carrying involves having a plan in mind on how to handle the threats that come your way. Shooting the the threat is not necessarily going to always be the best tactic. Not having a backup plan is an error, in my opinion. Not going through "mental reps" is going to cause failures.

One size fits all vs. the right fit. That's my point.
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