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Old 04-04-2018, 09:40 AM
jhnttrpp jhnttrpp is offline
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Default I'm glad I don' Live in England

A man Is attacked in his home, in his kitchen by a burglar with a screwdriver. He grabs a knife and fights the burglar off, stabbing him. The burglar runs out of the house collapses and dies. The homeowner called the police The homeowner is in jail charged with murder. This was on the BBC's website.
Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested - BBC News
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:54 AM
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That's just crazy!
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:58 AM
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That's just crazy!
Yes. I was just blown away by it and wondered, "Is this where America is headed"
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:00 AM
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Maybe the Castle Doctrine applies only to actual castles.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:06 AM
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It's got to be a joke, right? Fake news, right?
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:19 AM
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This incident is all too common.

England gives the normal citizen, NO rights for self defense.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTSH View Post
It's got to be a joke, right? Fake news, right?
Doesn't sound like it...here's another link.

Homeowner, 78, arrested after '''burglar''', 38, stabbed to death with screwdriver

Tony Martin faced the same fate many years ago. He used a gun for self defense. Here is his story:

Tony Martin case: background | UK news | The Guardian

Last edited by Lee in Quartzsite; 04-04-2018 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:33 AM
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Beyond sad. To think that the country which gave us the Magna Carta and the common law has plummeted to these depths.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhnttrpp View Post
Yes. I was just blown away by it and wondered, "Is this where America is headed"
Yes, I think it is. Just a matter of time. All our school children
and college kids are indoctrinated from preschool by liberals
teaching antigun, participation awards, peace, love etc.
Just look at the culture in colleges. A conservative can't even
speak at most colleges. These people grow up to vote.
Add those to current liberal antigun crown and the future doesn't
look bright. In coming years, more liberal judges, supreme court
flips and gun rights are gone. Just a matter of time. You have
no real 2nd amendment in California, New York, New Jersey ,etc
now. It will spread. How do you eat an elephant? One bite
at a time.

Last edited by Geronimo Jim; 04-04-2018 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:49 AM
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Just read where London has a higher murder rate than New York city.
Take away the guns and people just find a another way to kill each other.
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:08 AM
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My question is, when it is a clear case of self defense do people actually get convicted of a crime for protecting themselves? I don't agree with the verdict in the Tony Martin case as presented in the link above, but I can understand how the prosecution made the case that he didn't have to shoot the burglar to save his own life since he apparently advanced on the burglar before shooting and killing him.

But when the dead miscreant has actually wounded the homeowner before being killed, I can see the homeowner being charged - until the investigators can sort out what actually happened - but once it is established that the homeowner was actually defending themselves do they still get convicted? Are their laws really THAT backwards?

Last edited by BC38; 04-04-2018 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:17 AM
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Maybe the British government expects him to fight off the screwdriver wielding attacker in the kitchen with a dirty sink sponge, thus causing the attacker to succumb to flesh-eating bacteria.
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
My question is, when it is a clear case of self defense do people actually get convicted of a crime for protecting themselves?
From what I've read, no, they generally don't get convicted. However, it's still horrible to be accused of murder after being forced to defend oneself, not to mention the potential costs of defending oneself in court.

I seem to recall one incident where the homeowner was charged with striking the burglar/home invader with a cricket bat. I don't know what happened afterwards.

And I'm sure there are exceptions.

I also recall reading somewhere that the only self defense tool legal in England is a personal alarm.
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Old 04-04-2018, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geronimo Jim View Post
Yes, I think it is. Just a matter of time. All our school children
and college kids are indoctrinated from preschool by liberals
teaching antigun, participation awards, peace, love etc.
Just look at the culture in colleges. A conservative can't even
speak at most colleges. These people grow up to vote.
Add those to current liberal antigun crown and the future doesn't
look bright. In coming years, more liberal judges, supreme court
flips and gun rights are gone. Just a matter of time. You have
no real 2nd amendment in California, New York, New Jersey ,etc
now. It will spread. How do you eat an elephant? One bite
at a time.

I think you nailed it with your post. A really sad state of affairs for our once was great country.
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Old 04-04-2018, 12:03 PM
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In the UK you do not necessarily have the right to protect yourself. You should allow yourself to be murdered and then hope that the cops catch the bad guy.
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
My question is, when it is a clear case of self defense do people actually get convicted of a crime for protecting themselves? I don't agree with the verdict in the Tony Martin case as presented in the link above, but I can understand how the prosecution made the case that he didn't have to shoot the burglar to save his own life since he apparently advanced on the burglar before shooting and killing him.

But when the dead miscreant has actually wounded the homeowner before being killed, I can see the homeowner being charged - until the investigators can sort out what actually happened - but once it is established that the homeowner was actually defending themselves do they still get convicted? Are their laws really THAT backwards?
Why is it ok to charge someone with a crime until the investigators sort it out. Where did the presumption of innocence go.
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:13 PM
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It's got to be a joke, right? Fake news, right?
You wish.
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:16 PM
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Beyond sad. To think that the country which gave us the Magna Carta and the common law has plummeted to these depths.
You got to remember this. The Magna Carta wasn't given the same way your Independece wasn't given either.

There are no free lunches.
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:21 PM
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Default London's monthly murder rate has overtaken that of New York City

London murder rate higher than New York as police investigate 31st stabbing in capital this year

handguns ban notwisthstanding...
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
My question is, when it is a clear case of self defense do people actually get convicted of a crime for protecting themselves? I don't agree with the verdict in the Tony Martin case as presented in the link above, but I can understand how the prosecution made the case that he didn't have to shoot the burglar to save his own life since he apparently advanced on the burglar before shooting and killing him.

But when the dead miscreant has actually wounded the homeowner before being killed, I can see the homeowner being charged - until the investigators can sort out what actually happened - but once it is established that the homeowner was actually defending themselves do they still get convicted? Are their laws really THAT backwards?
One thing that gave me comfort as a Police Officer was that someone outside the Department would (hopefully) examine the evidence presented by the Investigation BEFORE a citizen was CHARGED with a crime. Oh well, BEFORE sentencing I guess in MOE.
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:25 PM
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We really need to spread this around, other forums, facebook, etc...etc....

maybe all the bad guys will decide to move there.....
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:30 PM
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We really need to spread this around, other forums, facebook, etc...etc....

maybe all the bad guys will decide to move there.....
They don't need too. They only need to support gun control, and/or "sensible" gun restriction laws.
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:32 PM
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From what I've read, no, they generally don't get convicted. However, it's still horrible to be accused of murder after being forced to defend oneself, not to mention the potential costs of defending oneself in court.

I seem to recall one incident where the homeowner was charged with striking the burglar/home invader with a cricket bat. I don't know what happened afterwards...
Judge gave Bugular's side two Wickets...
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:39 PM
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...I also recall reading somewhere that the only self defense tool legal in England is a personal alarm.
But it cannot be too loud or you may be charged with Sonic Assault. Also, criminals who experience hearing loss are eligible for Government pensions as the injury is deemed 'employment related'.

(Facts in this post come from the same sources REAL journalists use.)
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:59 PM
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Why is it ok to charge someone with a crime until the investigators sort it out. Where did the presumption of innocence go.
That presumption is true (or supposed to be) for the American judicial system, but I'm not sure it applies in England. I know it isn't universal - even in first world European countries. Familiar with the Napoleonic Code?
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:19 PM
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Is it not ironic that when introduced the Napoleonic Code was considered enlightened (ie compared to Sippenhaftung eg.)
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:35 PM
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A man Is attacked in his home, in his kitchen by a burglar with a screwdriver. He grabs a knife and fights the burglar off, stabbing him. The burglar runs out of the house collapses and dies. The homeowner called the police The homeowner is in jail charged with murder. This was on the BBC's website.
Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested - BBC News
THERE IS NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, THAT IS BETTER THAN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ! ! !

THAT 78 YEAR OLD WARRIOR, DESERVES A MEDAL......
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:38 PM
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you live in the USA...a stranger breaks into your house and threatens you...you shoot and kill the person...

will the police confiscate your firearm?

will the deceased's relatives bring suit against you?

will you have legal expenses?
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:49 PM
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There is no other country like America, but sadly, we are headed towards anarchy. The only hope for America is Jesus!
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:53 PM
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I have cousins there that are looking for traces of the England they grew up in.

Troubling times in the kingdom, indeed.
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:17 PM
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you live in the USA...a stranger breaks into your house and threatens you...you shoot and kill the person...

will the police confiscate your firearm?

will the deceased's relatives bring suit against you?

will you have legal expenses?
Mississippi, Michigan or Massachucetts?
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:34 PM
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From what I read kids that defend themselves in school can be punished. That is teaching them to not defend themselves. The kids grow up thinking self defense is bad. Larry
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
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Yes. I was just blown away by it and wondered, "Is this where America is headed"
Yes, this is exactly where the US is headed.
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:30 AM
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Their new motto: "Keep calm and bleed out."
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Old 04-05-2018, 05:27 AM
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This is on the way for us , The only thing we can do is try and vote the better ones in that would be on our side .
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Old 04-05-2018, 05:28 AM
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How do we the people let things get this way?????????????? WAKE UP
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Old 04-05-2018, 07:06 AM
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From what I read kids that defend themselves in school can be punished. That is teaching them to not defend themselves. The kids grow up thinking self defense is bad. Larry
Self defense is not popular among school administrators. Kids are supposed to endure their bullying while too often nothing is done about it.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:54 AM
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You kill a person in self defense, you can expect an investigation. A person has been killed by another person. It should always be treated as a serious thing. Brit law works differently than ours. Not better, not worse. Just different.
The Brits also discourage carrying knives and want long pointy things banned. If you have a bat in your car, you better be on the way to a ball game. The Brits have a reputation as the thugs of Europe. I blame soccer and warm beer.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:58 AM
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A follow up article from the BBC on self defense
What are your rights in tackling burglars?
What are your rights in tackling burglars? - BBC News
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:32 AM
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All violent deaths in the UK are treated as unjustified homicide until it is proven otherwise. It is part of the assumption of a peaceful, unarmed society.

... and you know what they say about "assume"...
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Old 04-05-2018, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by vytoland View Post
you live in the USA...a stranger breaks into your house and threatens you...you shoot and kill the person...

will the police confiscate your firearm?

will the deceased's relatives bring suit against you?

will you have legal expenses?
I think vytoland is right. As I was told by a retired Sheriff's deputy in our town, no matter how "cut and dried" it is, you will have your firearm confiscated, you will go to court, and you will have legal expenses. And our town is about as conservative as they come.

I'm afraid there are certain situations where our legal system is on the proverbial "slippery slope," and sadly, this just might be one of them.

Just my two cents worth.
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Old 04-05-2018, 12:42 PM
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I read somewhere that the UK has the opposite philosophy than we do. Here we are presumed innocent, there you are presumed guilty until proven otherwise. Am I wrong? Also, having had to defend another with shots fired, I can tell you that you will be arrested, your gun will be held in evidence and you will be arraigned. The good news is, if you are in Arizona and there is a witness, you will be cut loose the next day after seeing the judge and your shoe laces and firearm wil be returned. With a buy offer from the guy in property.
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Old 04-05-2018, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Geronimo Jim View Post
Yes, I think it is. Just a matter of time. All our school children
and college kids are indoctrinated from preschool by liberals
teaching antigun, participation awards, peace, love etc.
Just look at the culture in colleges. A conservative can't even
speak at most colleges. These people grow up to vote.
Add those to current liberal antigun crown and the future doesn't
look bright. In coming years, more liberal judges, supreme court
flips and gun rights are gone. Just a matter of time. You have
no real 2nd amendment in California, New York, New Jersey ,etc
now. It will spread. How do you eat an elephant? One bite
at a time.
Time to wake up, Jim! That elephant is long gone! In fact the things that you were waiting for, to happen, when you fell asleep, happened a long time ago. This was part of the "Big Plan", that was in effect, long before our Revolutionary War. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your correct observations are centuries too late. To get insight on this matter, I would suggest, as I have done many times, read the short book, by our third President, Thomas Jefferson! The book is entitled "Best Quotations Of Thomas Jefferson". I intend to suggest this, until told to stop. I seem to be the only one that considers that this book to contains understanding, and answers, to many of our today's problems.

Chubbo
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Old 04-05-2018, 12:57 PM
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I read somewhere that the UK has the opposite philosophy than we do. Here we are presumed innocent, there you are presumed guilty until proven otherwise. Am I wrong?
Yes. See my post above regarding how violent death is treated. I have the inside track on the way things are done there as I was born and raised in the UK.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/139990023-post40.html

Since 2004 arrest means you will be giving DNA, even if no further action is taken. IMHO it's just a CYA for the times in the past when rapists and murderers were in custody for minor offenses then released AND to get a government DNA database.

The UK National DNA Database: Balancing crime detection, human rights and privacy

Relevant detail. Note the timing of the legislation.

Quote:
Third, a 2003 change in the law in England and Wales, which came into effect in April 2004, has allowed DNA to be collected on arrest rather than on charge. This has affected both the number of individual profiles entered and the number permanently retained, because they are kept even if the individual is never charged with any offence. This decision, made via a late amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill in March 2003, happened less than one week before the bill was debated in the House of Commons and during the first week of the war in Iraq, when it was least likely to attract public attention and debate.
Another shorter piece.

GeneWatch UK - What happens when someone is arrested.
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Old 04-05-2018, 01:31 PM
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OP.... I'm glad I don' Live in England

This country is getting to be like the country my ancestors emigrated from.
I wonder how long it will be before self defense will be classed as a vigilante act. We can't have people running around taking the law into their own hands. We must wait on the powers that be to decide justice. Larry
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
.....THAT 78 YEAR OLD WARRIOR, DESERVES A MEDAL......
No, he deserves a 2" model 64 for the next time. Joe
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mule Packer View Post
you will go to court, and you will have legal expenses. And our town is about as conservative as they come.
While one's gun will be taken in as evidence, I don't think it's a certainty that one will have to go to court and/or have legal expenses. I've read of a number of instances where the defender wasn't arrested, charges were never filed, and in most, if not all, of the states with "Stand Your Ground" statutes civil suits aren't allowed if one's actions were deemed justifiable. So those aspects will largely depend on where the incident took place.

Having said that, I think it'd be a mistake to assume that this will be the case in every shooting. Any bit of "gray" in the situation can change things, as well as the political climate where the incident took place.
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:58 PM
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And there we see the difference between a SUBJECT and a CITIZEN.

Any questions?
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Old 04-05-2018, 04:51 PM
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No, he deserves a 2" model 64 for the next time. Joe
Should have kept all those Lend Lease Victorys.
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Old 04-05-2018, 06:22 PM
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Should have kept all those Lend Lease Victorys.
Those who do not learn from history...

American Rifleman | Throwback Thursday: Send A Gun to Defend a British Home
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