Victims in Texas Shooting, what could they have done in that moment?

[flagman1776]

I'm starting this as a new thread to ask your thoughts. The two parishoners murdered in the Texas Church shooting... were pretty much dead man walking. Action always beats reaction, except in TV gunfights. Drawing on a drawn gun is pretty much suicide. I suppose you have to try. You are shot, maybe dead, either way.
Unless one gets the opportunity (I don't think they had one) to distract the assailant to buy time to react and draw.
What else could they have done? Thrown themselves down and out of the line of fire? Emergency evasion, might have spoiled BG's aim enough to make the shot survivable?? IF the target had time to react. Frankly, I think I would have failed the test. More importantly, I'd probably not have even thought of it in time. It's not customarily taught at anything less than Operator levels of training.

[Sistema1927]

I'm not sure that they had enough time to utter a prayer.

From what little I have seen, he was dressed and acting in a strange manner, probably enough that he should have been confronted outside of the auditorium. Being a church, they probably didn't want to turn him away, and that is understandable, if tragic.

[Mistered]

It appears right before he pulls the shotgun the guy he was talking to is pointing - I wonder if he was directing him to leave possibly?

[jmace57]

If you look at the full video (unedited), the shooter immediately shoots the man drawing a weapon that is further (several feet further) away...and the man closer to him 1 second later. As sad as it is, there was really nothing either of the deceased could have done.

An excellent shot (headshot) by the man who killed the shooter from what looked like about 15-20 feet away.

[oldiegoldie]

Originally Posted by The_Truth

My plan in a situation similar is to play dead as if I had a heart attack and keeled over dead. Hopefully this would buy enough time to either get out or confuse/distract the attacker long enough to draw as I'm falling and hopefully end the threat before I'm executed.

When you're screwed either way, whatever helps you survive for a few seconds longer is fair game to me.

I'm concerned with surviving even if it means using confusion.

my plan exactly, feign a heart attack [at 81 yrs of age i might not have to fake it].

[lrrifleman]

I don't have a crystal ball and I am not a medium. I like the idea of looking for the good in people, and I was raised to never speak ill of the dead. That said, I would like to think that the two men that perished knew that their time on earth was over and they spent their last breaths buying time for their fellow parishioners to seem cover or a better vantage point.

[robrossk]

Very little reaction time. I think the only option would have been for distraction or fighting. Throwing song books, purses, anything in reach to maybe cause distraction. In the active shooter training I received they say to 1. Run. 2. Hide. 3. Fight.

[fmflorida]

I really dont think there is anything further they could have done, I think the actions that were taken by all involved were as much as they could do.

If this was a store or a restaurant Id say that they could have asked him to leave, had police come speak to him, given that he was dressed oddly and acting oddly from the reports Ive read however, it was a church.

Churches are typically known for the accepting nature for all those who with to attend.....though luckily some people noticed he was "off".

Unfortunately this was the "best" outcome of only bad and worse outcomes and it was handled in the best way it could have been handled by those unfortunate enough to have to participate in it.

[Buckeye63]

Our Church.. we have armed two members that are stationed at each entrance ... Two in the parking lot .. Whoever has a gun permit useally carries .. But we have some members that always carry ..

When I say armed . members outside and at entrances carry fullsize or compact .. ushers also carry at least compact .. known members carry at least compact . Others carry there choice . .. Myself I carry a 23 at entrances or parking lot .. When inside Church a 27 or 23

I know this may seem overkill ... But it can happen..

[Wise_A]

Originally Posted by Buckeye63

Our Church.. we have armed two members that are stationed at each entrance ... Two in the parking lot ..

Do you guys check for unlocked doors besides the main entrance? I seem to recall at least a couple of these incidents where the shooter gained access through unlocked side entrances--sometimes in the middle of services, sometimes in the early morning hours and using a basement to hide out in. And in the city, it's very common to have burglaries in the church and attached clergy residences where the thieves just walked in despite the main doors being locked. Lots of priests roughed-up over the years.

Hell, when I was a kid, I remember just strolling over to the side doors of the church for various things, and just walking right in side entrances.

Side note: Plenty of those roughed-up priests just seemed to accept it as part of the job, and didn't lock the side doors even after they got kicked around. Like it was written in the Good Book we were all entitled to unfettered 24/7 access to the Lord's House, and it was their duty to grin and bear it.

[Smoke]

My wife and I used to attend a church with a similar lay out. We sat in the same location every week. As far away from the main Sanctuary entrance as possible. A few rows behind everyone else and within 15 feet of an emergency exit. In our current church we sit in the overflow room which (IMO) moves us farther from the target zone.

That's probably about the most feasible long term plan I can come up with.

My wife had a friend named Holly who came to church every week dressed up like a Goth zombie. It took her awhile to grow out of that phase and she might never have got there if she'd been kicked out of the church the first time she showed up.

My point is as the church we have to be as inviting as we can and address behavior not looks.

[badge]

He gave his life for his fellow man,.....l no higher accolades can be bestowed.

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by fmflorida

I really dont think there is anything further they could have done, I think the actions that were taken by all involved were as much as they could do.

If this was a store or a restaurant Id say that they could have asked him to leave, had police come speak to him, given that he was dressed oddly and acting oddly from the reports Ive read however, it was a church.

Churches are typically known for the accepting nature for all those who with to attend.....though luckily some people noticed he was "off".

In a church I think that hiding under the pews might be better than trying to get to an exit.

Unfortunately this was the "best" outcome of only bad and worse outcomes and it was handled in the best way it could have been handled by those unfortunate enough to have to participate in it.

...accepted Dylan Roof into their bible study. He wasn't dressed funny and acted very calm before he went nuts on those poor people.

[Ziggy2525]

Originally Posted by flagman1776

I'm starting this as a new thread to ask your thoughts. The two parishoners murdered in the Texas Church shooting... were pretty much dead man walking. Action always beats reaction, except in TV gunfights. Drawing on a drawn gun is pretty much suicide. I suppose you have to try. You are shot, maybe dead, either way.
Unless one gets the opportunity (I don't think they had one) to distract the assailant to buy time to react and draw.
What else could they have done? Thrown themselves down and out of the line of fire? Emergency evasion, might have spoiled BG's aim enough to make the shot survivable?? IF the target had time to react. Frankly, I think I would have failed the test. More importantly, I'd probably not have even thought of it in time. It's not customarily taught at anything less than Operator levels of training.

Once the gunman was seated in the sanctuary, it was too late. Reaction time too short to stop an initial attack. They would have needed to stop him from entering, but that may have just moved the shootout to the church entrance.

Lots of focus on what could have been done better. Good to take a look, but the answer may be “nothing.” Sometime you can do everything 100% right and have bad outcomes. The dirtbag shooter and lady luck get a say too.

[kzaske]

The main takeaway I get from watching the video is the importance of being able to get to your weapon quickly. The first victim shot can be seen fumbling for his pistol for a couple of seconds while the gunman was backing up. The instructor can be seen drawing his weapon in one smooth movement after the first victim is down while the gunman shot the second victim. I guess the moral of the story is practice, practice, and then practice some more.
If you are looking for the raw video here is a link: White Settlement Texas Church Shooting Raw Footage - Good Guys With Guns Stop Bad Guy With Gun It is disturbing, discretion is highly advised.

[jmace57]

Originally Posted by Wise_A

Do you guys check for unlocked doors besides the main entrance? I seem to recall at least a couple of these incidents where the shooter gained access through unlocked side entrances--sometimes in the middle of services, sometimes in the early morning hours and using a basement to hide out in. And in the city, it's very common to have burglaries in the church and attached clergy residences where the thieves just walked in despite the main doors being locked. Lots of priests roughed-up over the years.

Hell, when I was a kid, I remember just strolling over to the side doors of the church for various things, and just walking right in side entrances.

Side note: Plenty of those roughed-up priests just seemed to accept it as part of the job, and didn't lock the side doors even after they got kicked around. Like it was written in the Good Book we were all entitled to unfettered 24/7 access to the Lord's House, and it was their duty to grin and bear it.

My wife was a church secretary for many years at 2 churches. Both of them had policies that the doors remain unlocked (1 Methodist, 1 Lutheran) to be "welcoming to all". It led to some pretty scary confrontations with homeless people. 1 person "moved in" to the church, hiding for more than a week in a storage room and coming out at night to raid the kitchen. Lots of circumstances where people came in DEMANDING money/food/etc.

[swamprat]

This is not meant to be disparaging to the victims of this tragedy, their bravery is very commendable. It should reinforce that any movement would have been better than nothing. We should all practice more moving while drawing the weapon and include firing on the move.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by kzaske

The main takeaway I get from watching the video is the importance of being able to get to your weapon quickly. The first victim shot can be seen fumbling for his pistol for a couple of seconds while the gunman was backing up. The instructor can be seen drawing his weapon in one smooth movement after the first victim is down while the gunman shot the second victim. I guess the moral of the story is practice, practice, and then practice some more.
If you are looking for the raw video here is a link: White Settlement Texas Church Shooting Raw Footage - Good Guys With Guns Stop Bad Guy With Gun It is disturbing, discretion is highly advised.

^^^
That is my opinion on the matter also...Deep concealment is not needed.

Training & Practice are needed, practice often.


.

[federali]

Many of you are overlooking the fact that a house of worship requires blueprints and building permits issued by the local municipality. Maximum occupancy is determined, as are the number of exits required in the event of a fire. These exits must remain unlocked when the building is occupied in compliance with local fire codes.

For this reason, trying to limit points of entry is not a tactical option available to police or armed civilian volunteers or guards. My tactical plan would be to use a rifle (handgun as backup)and to maintain cover at all times. Armed guards who make themselves walking gallery targets are too easy to neutralize, especially where a gunman or terrorist cell has scouted the site and already knows where the guards usually position themselves.

[cowboy4evr]

The security guy that took out the bad guy , says he practices weekly and not just standing there lazily shooting at a target 7 yds away like I've seen so many do . His final comment when interviewed , " I didn't kill a man , I killed evil " . Amen ! Regards, Paul

[Kronos]

Generally when matters go sideways I plan to be moving, looking for cover so as to not make myself a target, somewhere while doing that I'm getting my gun out.

I see a weirdo like that one I ain't going to be near him,less so out in the open,I'll probably take up a secure position that I can get cover if it goes to hell and I can return the hate with a vengeance.

I'm not a church person so I can't say where I'd be in that situation.

[fmflorida]

Originally Posted by rwsmith

...accepted Dylan Roof into their bible study. He wasn't dressed funny and acted very calm before he went nuts on those poor people.

Im not sure what point you are trying to make? In THAT instance the assailant was acting normal and was accepted into the Church with open arms....then did evil.

In this instance the assailant was acting strange.....and was still allowed to stay and welcomed with open arms.......

The difference is in THIS instance the assailant was acting odd and dressed odd for the weather/location which was a red flag to some of the security team members...but they still welcomed him.

If you are trying to say assailants come in all forms, I 100% agree but when you have clear signs.....thats a plus for the good guys.

[Wise_A]

Originally Posted by federali

Many of you are overlooking the fact that a house of worship requires blueprints and building permits issued by the local municipality. Maximum occupancy is determined, as are the number of exits required in the event of a fire. These exits must remain unlocked when the building is occupied in compliance with local fire codes.

For this reason, trying to limit points of entry is not a tactical option available to police or armed civilian volunteers or guards.

Every place I've ever been, crashbar doors--locked from the outside, but accessible from the inside--were permissible in fire codes.

[Dvan34]

The news indicates that the shooter was known by the members of the congregation and 'had' made previous threats. I would say that they had reasons to ask him to leave, or take off his heavy coat, etc.. and or both.

This needs to be discussed to deal with future potential situations. If they need 'legal' opinions- get them. Also the teams could engage in 'role playing' training situations on handling something like this in the future, other than just practicing shooting. Perhaps use of pepper spray or even wasp spray?

[robertrwalsh]

I have watched the video with some interest. The first man shot MIGHT HAVE HAD a better chance by rushing the shooter or evasion. Had he been closer, rushing would have been a good option. Had he been further, evasion would have been a good option. Unfortunately, unless you are REALLY fast and your opponent is REALLY slow action beats reaction. By the time you see the bad guy swinging the shotgun up you probably don't have time to draw and bring your own weapon into play. That in-between distance is a rough situation to be in (obviously).

[andy52]

I understand that it's a place of worship and people should be welcomed there but I saw the interview with the person that took down the perp.
He said they had eyes on the prep from the time he walk in the door.
If they suspected him from the beginning wouldn't a personal and close up greeting ( face to face) have prevent him from going any farther?

[Rastoff]

One thing that could have been done differently...

The second man shot was no more than 2-3 feet from the shooter. He could have tackled the shooter the instant he saw the shotgun. This may have saved one or both lives, maybe not.

This is not a criticism, just an observation.

We all need to remember that our firearm is not our only defensive tool.

[andy52]

Rastoff these guys were all in there 60-70s like me and even though I understand your point I don't know if I'm fast enough or strong enough anymore to pull something like that off. The whole thing happened in 4-6 seconds, I don't know if I would have been fast enough to do what you suggest. But like I said in my previous post getting up close to the guy I may have been able to do, it would be hard to raise a shotgun from under a coat if we were toe to toe.

[robertrwalsh]

News reports today say the bad guy had been in the church earlier in the year (no exact time frame). They gave him food but refused to give him money. He wanted money and was angry at the refusal. This is being offered as a possible motive for the shooting.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

One thing that could have been done differently...

The second man shot was no more than 2-3 feet from the shooter. He could have tackled the shooter the instant he saw the shotgun.

This may have saved one or both lives, maybe not.

This is not a criticism, just an observation.

We all need to remember that our firearm is not our only defensive tool.

I understand what your saying....

Under the like circumstances as the church usher...

I don't know to certainty I could have done any better.


.

[andy52]

Keith they did try and died for it but this is the most poignant statement that can be made for their actions...."Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends".

[Jessie]

I can’t see this happening any other way than it did. The heroic security man who was gunned down did about as good as he could have. Evil just had a second’s head start on him. The second fatality did not have any means of protection that I could see.
The second security man did to the perp what the perp did to the unfortunate first man.
I only wish it could have happened 5 seconds sooner.
I praise them both.

[flagman1776]

I've seen better video now. It seems that the perp was going for Victim#2 initially. Victim#1 saw the threat and went for his gun. The perp shifted his aim and took out V#1 before reverting to V#2. The perp's shift of aim might have bought V#1 time he needed. I looks close to me but there's no second place winner here. V#2 was gifted a split second to react, sadly it wasn't enough. I agree now, V#2 had very limited options. He might have tried a counter attack or could have done a fake a heart attack and throw himself out of the line of fire. If he was armed, trying to fall so as to not impeed a draw... weak side or back...

I think a number of parishioners got up which was unwise. As potential victims, ducking into and behind the pews would have given them cover and concealment and clear line of fire for the protectors.

I was critical earlier of armed protectors moving towards the perp, thus leaving the 6 o'clock unguarded. I watched a few times to watch these other actions. From the camera position, we can't see the right wall. Other armed protectors might have taken guard positions against that wall... we don't know. I suggest uninjured pashioners crouch / crawl toward the exits.

One take away is armed protectors need to be on the outside pew end so they have freedom of movement. If not a 'hero' perhaps, but men who saw the elephant and did their best. A final thought: Jeff Cooper pointed out that evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.

[andy52]

Originally Posted by flagman1776

A final thought: Jeff Cooper pointed out that evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.

My point exactly, if they suspected this person from the time he walked in the door walk up to him even in a friendly manner and confront him. Don't wait until SHTF and try being reactive.

[Ziggy2525]

Originally Posted by Jessie

I can’t see this happening any other way than it did. The heroic security man who was gunned down did about as good as he could have. Evil just had a second’s head start on him. The second fatality did not have any means of protection that I could see.
The second security man did to the perp what the perp did to the unfortunate first man.
I only wish it could have happened 5 seconds sooner.
I praise them both.

^^^ this.

I also wonder if the dirt bag murder's bizarre dress and the unexpected appearance of the shotgun caused the two deceased GG's OODA loop to get stuck. The security team may have trained for an active shooter, but not a clown wearing a wig and fake beard with a shotgun. It may have been so outside any scenario they practiced they sort of got stuck.

[keith44spl]

I read somewhere, that the perpetrator had visited this church earlier in the year
asking for money, was give food instead and he was upset because he did not receive cash.

Retaliation for his previous visit, hence the disguise?

.

[SMSgt]

I'd bet my money all they were thinking was, "Oh poop!" or some derivative.

[Mister X]

I’ve only watched snippets of the video, but in general, H2H skills and physical fitness. Gun guys always think about going immediately to the gun, but if you’re at ground zero when these kinds of incidents go down, unarmed skills can save the day and are generally the best first response at those ranges. If you lack the physical ability to engage in that manner(which many do), you’ll need a lot of luck or divine intervention unless the shooter gets distracted and is not paying attention to you.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by federali

Many of you are overlooking the fact that a house of worship requires blueprints and building permits issued by the local municipality. Maximum occupancy is determined, as are the number of exits required in the event of a fire. These exits must remain unlocked when the building is occupied in compliance with local fire codes.

For this reason, trying to limit points of entry is not a tactical option available to police or armed civilian volunteers or guards.

Panic bars are a thing

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Wise_A

Every place I've ever been, crashbar doors--locked from the outside, but accessible from the inside--were permissible in fire codes.

In accordance with National Fire Protection Association (NFPA 101 Life Safety Code) which most jurisdictions adopt, doors may be locked but must allow unimpeded egress. This of course depends on the hardware being used.

Exit devices (panic bars) are the most effective but costly. Most churches use them on both interior and exterior doors.

I would not attend a church which left any door unlocked other than the front door.

[Wise_A]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

In accordance with National Fire Protection Association (NFPA 101 Life Safety Code)...

Interesting! Thanks, dude!

---

Another thing I was pondering, but took too long to ponder because it's admittedly outside my own skill- and gear-set...

...how many security teams have a medically-trained member with access to a trauma kit? I count eight or nine guys with guns in the video, but only one person checks on the mortally-wounded usher.

[otis24]

The guy that stood up from the pew was fumbling for his gun which drew attention to himself. He should have drawn while sitting. He would have been obscured by the pew. Better yet, a shoulder holster would have made his firearm more accessible. I certainly will invest in a shoulder holster. Just as many own different firearms for different purposes, we should have different Holsters for different occasions. Monday morning quarterbacking I know. We never know how we will respond until we are in that situation. The best we can do is learn and prepare/prepare and learn!

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Wise_A

Interesting! Thanks, dude!

---

Another thing I was pondering, but took too long to ponder because it's admittedly outside my own skill- and gear-set...

...how many security teams have a medically-trained member with access to a trauma kit? I count eight or nine guys with guns in the video, but only one person checks on the mortally-wounded usher.

I’ve performed work at many area churches. Some are well prepared and some aren’t.

One of the biggest is also the most secure. The church campus covers two city blocks with 17 separate buildings.

They are very well prepared as the congregation is huge. So there are many active and retired military and law enforcement as well as medical staff.

When trying to secure a church there two difficult yet necessary problems that need to be overcome. The first is money and convincing the staff and trustees to spend that money.

The second problem is convincing the same people that additional security is needed.

Most of the time the staff and trustees bicker. They want to be secure but don’t want to be inconvenienced. And some of them think that it’s sinful to carry a gun at church.

I’ve gone over security with church staff a few hundred times. I’m considered an expert in building security locally. Sometimes they listen. Sometimes they don’t.

[Jessie]

Yes, there’s that.

[lrrifleman]

Originally Posted by Dvan34

The news indicates that the shooter was known by the members of the congregation and 'had' made previous threats. I would say that they had reasons to ask him to leave, or take off his heavy coat, etc.. and or both.

Sadly, we don't really know where the security team was initially posted. For all we know, the departed gentlemen may have been following up on a concern shared by a greeter, and THAT discussion triggered the shooting. Sadly, what was said may only be known between the departed and their Maker!

We saw two devoted gentlemen act as shepherds for their flock, and sacrificed all.

[flagman1776]

Originally Posted by otis24

The guy that stood up from the pew was fumbling for his gun which drew attention to himself. He should have drawn while sitting. He would have been obscured by the pew. Better yet, a shoulder holster would have made his firearm more accessible. I certainly will invest in a shoulder holster. Just as many own different firearms for different purposes, we should have different Holsters for different occasions. Monday morning quarterbacking I know. We never know how we will respond until we are in that situation. The best we can do is learn and prepare/prepare and learn!

I don't know that I'd go to a shoulder holster but I must agree that a draw while in the pew.. and even firing from there... I think would have been better. Might have even sneeky draw, gotten the gun fully out... then it's drawn gun against drawn gun. THAT's something to practice, a draw while seated... a sneaky draw while seated.

It is a mind set but with a weapon pointed, you don't have to give the perp the first shot.

[sotexas]

What I find interesting in the talk is people act as if they would do something different in a fight or flee situation. I would guess the percentage of fighters in any societal group to be very small. My only take from the situation is; what a loss, I won't second guess, and to be thankful for the skilled fighter that put an end to this tragedy.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by Wise_A

Interesting! Thanks, dude!

---

Another thing I was pondering, but took too long to ponder because it's admittedly outside my own skill- and gear-set...

...how many security teams have a medically-trained member with access to a trauma kit?

I count eight or nine guys with guns in the video, but only one person checks on the mortally-wounded usher.

Several years ago, I help organize our security team.
I was the senior member of the armed staff, my training was in 'response to active shooter'
(I received my training at state police headquarters)
we trained to prevent an active shooter(s) as well how to engage an active shooter.

We also had a triage team, one doctor and three or four nurses.
As well as a communication team trained to handle all 911 calls to law enforcement
and EMT response, independently on separate lines.
All member had discrete means of identification to be attached to the outer garment before LE arrives on scene.

The armed staff consisted of four members inside of the sanctuary.
All members of the armed staff has radios w/ear buds.
Three armed staff in the outer foyer and hallways.
The perimeter is patrol ed by two to three of the staff.
(all staff member are on a rotation as to positions, like cross training.)

All doors are inside push bar and locked at the beginning of each service.
Each door has a audible alarm and a numbered location at the main control panel in the foyer.

I am thankful and glad to report we have not had any serious incidents.

.

[Faulkner]

I've watched the video a number of times not particularly looking at the shooting but at how other church members throughout the sanctuary reacted.

I note the woman who was sitting near the incident who went hysterical. She literally climbed over other people sitting next to her in the pews then went running around in the incident scene (instead of running out) screaming and waving her arms. Eventually a man physically grabbed her and carried her out of the sanctuary. Hopefully, someone thanked that guy for doing what needed to be done.

[Ziggy2525]

Originally Posted by Faulkner

I've watched the video a number of times not particularly looking at the shooting but at how other church members throughout the sanctuary reacted.

I note the woman who was sitting near the incident who went hysterical. She literally climbed over other people sitting next to her in the pews then went running around in the incident scene (instead of running out) screaming and waving her arms. Eventually a man physically grabbed her and carried her out of the sanctuary. Hopefully, someone thanked that guy for doing what needed to be done.

Not 100% sure, but it sounded to me like she was screaming “daddy.” I was thinking one of the GG’s guys shot was her father. Maybe not.