Age old discussion on what gun to carry for self defense

American Rifleman | Sheriff's Tips: Don’t Buy Expensive Defense Guns?

I haven't looked at the article, but agree. A scruffy but dependable arm is desirable. If you have to use it, it will be tied up in evidence for a long period of time and realistically, it my never be returned. Judges have way too much discretion with our stuff.

I like the vehicle analogy. I don't drive a beater because I might wreck. I would think you're statistically more likely to be in an auto accident than a defensive shooting. At least for now...

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Because of the metric system?

My perspective is to carry the firearm you feel comfortable with, shoot well, know how to clear a malfunction with and are able to properly conceal.

If protecting your life or that of a loved one isn't worth carrying a "better" firearm, and at least equal to the value of sitting in your home admiring such a firearm or taking it to the range...then I humbly submit that your perspective is *** backward.

Sure, it would suck to have an expensive firearm seized as evidence. But not as bad as losing a gunfight when all the chips were on the line.

What's your life worth?

(Fortunately, I don't own any pistols worth more than several hundred dollars, (S&W and Glocks), so I carry without fear of remorse.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I understand the logic and that’s the reason I no longer carry my 1968 Colt Cobra. It was my first off duty gun and I want it to stay in the family, plus I know what happens to guns that are relegated to the evidence room in police HQ.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Because, as small as the probability may be, I may be involved in a self-defense incident someday, I only carry firearms in which I have the utmost confidence and as well "equipped" as possible. If, heaven forbid, I'm ever involved in a self-defense shooting, the last thing that will be on my mind (or should be) is the value of my confiscated firearm or whether I may get it back. We should all be so lucky as to survive such a situation and then be alive and able to deal with such concerns.

For me, the vehicle analogy seems more similar than different. The couple guys I know that have collectible cars don’t drive them in bad weather. They don’t typically drive them to work. They have a regular car for every day use. The collectibles get driven, but the owners are pretty selective about when.

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Vegan by proxy.

I think folks equate "inexpensive" with "unreliable."

I've been fortunate to not have many unreliable firearms, and the few I've had, I've given up.

Two of the most reliable handguns I own are 3rd Gen Smiths, that were both purchased for $300 or less. This would not be a financial setback if they were confiscated, but I don't feel I'm giving up any reliability in the process. I imagine the same could be said about a used Glock, or other modern pistol.

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Because of the metric system?

If I were to lose either of the two Glocks I regularly carry concealed, the pain of loss would be less financial and more nostalgic from the point of view of having carried each while still working in federal law enforcement.

I agree with you that less expensive does not equate to unreliability. I've trusted my life to S&W and Glock handguns for most all of my adult life.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

It's simple. Just don't carry an heirloom or a collectors' item you don't want to lose. Be prepared to give up the firearm that protected your life. Carry a gun you trust and can shoot well. It's not that different than a totaled car that activated its crumple zones and blew its airbags to save your hide.

What about the times I've read about when someone is arrested, and the cops come to their house and confiscate all their guns? Torch open their safe and dump everything on the floor and toss them like firewood into piles for the news cameras? Doesn't matter that they've all museum grade pre-war Smiths and Colts, or custom engraved double rifles, or KelTecs. "The suspect had an arsenal in his suburban home. The neighbors had no idea and were shocked."

If you are arrested for a capital crime, expect to have all of your guns confiscated and treated like junk.

My Colt 1911’s have all had significant work done at significant cost. The work enhances their utility to me.

They’re also the guns I shoot best and use daily.

I’d prefer not to lose one, but if I have to use one losing it to a police property room isn’t a concern.

If it saves you or a loved one it is money well spent.
If it gets tagged...
Go to your safe and pick out another one.

I'm digging that Hi-Power in the article..

Either way you choose, why does it have to be this way with our property?
I mean after all, aren't we innocent until proven guilty of something. Shouldn't there be some modicum of accountability for our property while it's under the authorities control?
If not, there certainly should be.
It shows a lack of respect otherwise.

If that shooting in self-defense happens in your home, expect the investigators to take all your guns as a seasoned investigator will not take your word for it regarding which gun you used. They don't like surprises on the witness stand that could have been avoided.

Exactly....that's why they won't find mine..there hidden in plain sight, right behind the wall mural in the family room..

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Hipcocked45

A firearm seized as evidence is not cleaned before placed in evidence. It's not wiped down. It's not oiled. It's placed in evidence just as it was recovered. If it's got blood on it then blood is going to stay on it. If you want to find out what blood does to steel and blueing the take one of your guns, apply blood and let it set for a few months. However a gun, or any evidence, is recovered from the scene is the way it goes into evidence. To do otherwise is altering evidence.
There's a very good reason for all of that. It's evidence. Case in point. There was a shooting in a very small town 4 miles from me. The COP was friends with the accused family members. When he arrived on scene he was told grandma shot her granddaughter's ex-husband. He recovers the gun which has blood on it and also fingerprints and he cleans it. Later on there's speculation grandma wasn't the one who did the shooting but it was the ex-wife and grandma just took the fall for it. The COP's incompetence caused a major stir clear into the IL legislature which passed a bill that no LEO can be in charge of a homicide investigation unless they had first received specific training. The initial bill was a lot more restrictive. It was to prevent any police dept in any town less that 5000 population (IIRC the pop limit) from doing any homicide investigations.
As far as the article and not carrying expensive guns, some people are really not comprehending what it's about. You can tell that by the comments. "What's your life worth?" The article is not about carrying anything unreliable. It's not about carrying a HiPoint or a Raven. For example - Glock is a pretty cheap gun. If yours gets placed in evidence there are a bunch of others just like it, $500 +/- and you've got a gun just like the one you have in evidence. Your $3000 Les Baer custom gun or $5000 nickle Colt Python goes into evidence you may not find another one like it as replacement and when you do it's going to cost you a lot more than that Glock. Will that Les Baer do the job better than the Glock?

If you're arrested for a capital crime then you've got a lot more to worry about than if your guns are confiscated. As the old Dodge commercial sheriff use to say "You in a heap of trouble boy."

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183rd FBINA

It depends on definitions: Is an "expensive gun" a very nice 637 or a pristine 1970's 37 or a low number alloy cylinder Bodyguard? Is an "inexpensive gun" a Jennings? a Rohr? a newish Charter Off Duty? Obviously we don't carry 'Grandaddy's Victory from when he was a guard at Grumman out on the Island during the war'.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Now he will...

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Certified Curmudgeon

It is property, and in an investigation where an individual was threatened, harmed or killed, the investigation will prevail over someone's feeling being hurt because the police took a firearm for safe keeping, evidence or potential evidence of a crime. It is this way to preserve the chain of evidence and to prevent the police having to return to a scene looking for something that now may be missing... It will be documented and preserved for possible laboratory analysis as seen fit. This does not include a wipe down with an oily rag (which would destroy potential evidence). This is the modicum of accountability you speak of... Based on the outcome of the situation, a decision will be made by a prosecutor or judge as what to do with the firearm and it will be made according to the law. If you have heartache over some prized firearm being seized then maybe you should have considered that possibility before it was subjected to that possibility. This is the respect (of the law)you speak of. As far as being innocent until proven guilty - that is why investigations are conducted. If you are innocent, your rights were preserved, if you are guilty, then someone else's rights were preserved.

Sheriff Wilson misleads. The NRA with their Carry Guard Insurance misleads.

The chances of your actually having to shoot someone are REMOTE. Minute. Tiny. Too small to even consider.

Carry whatever gun you want to. Ignore NRA hype. They're just trying to sell insurance.

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I've still got it made.

I think the author is engaging in Reducto ad Absurdum. The defensive shooter is advising that you not go out and drop 3000$ on that Nighthawk BHP and use that for your carry gun.

He's NOT suggesting that you carry a Llama or a Jennings.

I carry a Glock 19 there are a million more just like it. I DON'T carry my Third Gen 4006 that I bought in a private sale that I LITERALLY can't legally replace

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Retired Career Security Guard

If I'm involved in a shooting, what happens to my gun is the least of my concerns.

Works for me.

My Bodyguard and my Shield are the 2 guns that I carry the most, I like them, keep them clean, and loaded with top qualilty hollowpoints, but I dont really care about them getting taken into evidence.
they only cost me less than $300 each.

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S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm

Except that the expensive vehicle is insured and will be replaced in kind of wrecked or stolen. The handgun confiscated into evidence won’t be.

If its a new Mercedes or Ferarri yes. But like an original Colt Aircrewman Special a 1949 Ferarri 166 International is pretty hard to replace. (That's why mine stays in the garage and nobody has ever seen me drive it.)

Expensive is one thing, irreplaceable is another.

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Certified Curmudgeon

If you carry for protection, I suggest you have some good liability insurance. Even if you are not arrested and the shooting is ruled justifiable, the person you shot or their family can sue you, and if they win, you could lose every thing that you have! Plus, good attorneys are not cheap. I recommend Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. It's money well spent.

They have gun sniffing dogs and expertise in search.

They will find every gun in your home.

Not sure about that, if the vehicle was impounded as evidence--wrecked or not.

From some of the news stories about missing/lost/unaccounted-for evidence you gotta wonder if it will show up for trial

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On the whistle draw and fire 6

Not true in several states. Notwithstanding that, I can envision a trial in which the defense advances a theory that because you bought a relatively obscure insurance policy that you both anticipated and were looking for an opportunity to shoot someone in self defense . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I wouldn't want to lose anything, don't know if I'd live long enough to get it back. That said, I don't skimp on my EDC. My Shield or 9c go wherever I do. Much as I hate to say it, my Series 70 1911's and Colt revolvers, (Police Positive & Detective Special), are strictly range guns now.

Another good reason to learn to shoot and carry
a Glock.

I don’t carry but if I did and had to use them for self defense. The cost of the guns would be the least of the problem. I have a S&W 3060J (about $350 zOTD) and a Ruger LC9s ($400) they serve me well as anything else. If I had to surrender a Sig I’d feel the same. If I choose a 38, 357 or 45 there are viable options under $500 new or used.

I don’t own any machinery or tools that I don’t use. Have some nice cars (nice to me, at least), a couple motorcycles, and a garage full of tools. A few handguns, too. I simply DO NOT sit around merely LOOKING at them. Acquired darn near everything I own for a reason...and by far everything is hands on. Couple nice pieces of art and memorabilia hanging on the walls...but even those are on display...not locked in a safe.

I simply cannot fathom owning a gun that I would not shoot or carry. ‘Course all my guns are rather utilitarian; not a ‘museum piece’ among them. To me a gun is a tool...nothing less, nothing more.

That said, I like nice grips; Nills and Spegels on my guns. But they are now sweat stained and have a nick or two.

Simply tool marks in my estimation.

Be safe.

Don't hate me, but two of my favorite carry guns are a Ruger GP100 3" fixed sight .357 and a Ruger SP101 in 9mm. Very reliable, very comfortable to carry, have total faith in them and if I do end up "losing" it for some time if used, well then, very easy to replace.

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Have Canon, Will Travel

I don't generally carry the family heirlooms for a defensive arm....

But, I do carry a platform that is most familiar, reliable and of a serious caliber.

If I relinquish one to an investigator.....I'll just replace it forthwith.

No worries here.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I knew a fellow that had his guns confiscated by the police, might have been the feds, don't remember too well, it was many moons ago, when he got them back they had been badly abused. I won't carry anything valued over 4 bills for that reason.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

Based on my own experience of having a pistol locked up in the Evidence room for 18 months and in being the supervisor of the Evidence Custodian for many years I can say this:

If you involved in a shooting expect to have the gun used in police custody until after all legal proceeding are complete. In my jurisdiction we did not just show up at your house and confiscate all your guns just because you were arrested for a felony. A Court Order would be obtained first. We would then show up with gun boxes and all firearms would be properly boxed for storage. Our evidence room was climate controlled so no guns rusted, ever. My department owned Sig P220 was in the evidence room for 18 months. The City Attorney would not release it after a Grand Jury No Bill, but rather waited until after the inevitable law suit was over. It was no sweat off my back that it took so long but I wanted it back. It saved my life and I now had an attachment to it.

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Support your Police, & NRA

Police department procedure is based on individual officers, carring out thier supervisors orders, based on policies written by the police administration, with an eye toward local politics, the desires of the State's Attorneys who will prosecute cases, and hopefully founded upon a clear understanding of the law as written by the State Legislature.

So, how many times or places can this go sideways? Different jurisdictions have different Customs and Political realities. Different persons in the process have thier own values and opininions. Some involved may have more discretion than others.

I personally know of two fairly similar cases in which a homeowner used deadly force against persons who had effected felonious unlawful entry into the homeowners residence late at night. In case one the decedant was in violation of a lawful restraining order. In case two the decedant had outstanding felony warrants and had just been released from custody. In both cases the homeowner stated that they awoke to the sound of the break-in, armed themselves, confroned the unlawful intruder and fatally shot same. Apples to apples except grown in different jurisdictions.

Case one, investigators photographed the firearm used, homeowner kept the gun. Case two, investigators not only siezed the .38 snubby used, but a .22 rifle and a 12 guage shotgun owned by the homeowner (and conviently resistered with the State.)

Neither homeowner was charged, neither was sued in Civil Court (case one was barred legally, perp in case two had nobody who would admidt to being related to him).

I know about case two because the homeowner grew up with someone who was related to a cop, and two years later he wanted his snubby back (the rifle and shotgun were returned about six months after the incident.

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Certified Curmudgeon

The most valuable weapon in my safe is probably worth $2,000-$3,000.

If l thought someone was about to crash through my door, and I thought that gun gave me the best chance for survival, that’s what would be in my hand. I probably spent at least 5x the value of that gun in my most recent cardiac event.

Going back to the beater car analogy: with ABS breaks, airbags, crunch zones, etc, you are FAR more likely to avoid or survive an accident in a modern vehicle than a 198x beater.

If you shoot a Kel-tec the best, carry it.
If you shoot a Les Baer 1911 the best, carry it.

For home defense, you can have your cake and eat it too.
An inexpensive Mossberg shotgun is going to beat the priciest of handguns.

Unless it’s purely a collectible, what’s the point of having a fancy handgun designed for combat if you’re not going to use it for its intended purpose?

in an act of self-defense I view the weapon used like a buddy that just jumped on a hand grenade and saved my life... will be missed but thankful for the sacrifice... carry what works for you... period.

I wouldn't have thought that would be a city attorney's call, unless it was evidence in the civil suit.

Did the department issue another one, or expect you to go naked for a year and a half?

I have personally been a 'witness' in two cases which IMHO the State of New York's ONLY evidence of Arson was that the property owner profited financially from a fire. (State lost both cases.)

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Certified Curmudgeon

If, heaven forbid, I ever had to shoot someone in self defense whatever happened to the gun would be the absolute least of my concerns.
I would consider that it performed its function and was expendable.
All the high dollar stuff we expended in the Army deadened me for this sort of thing.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

I think some folks are just looking at the link, not reading the article, and missing the "?" in the title.

The good Sheriff does not subscribe to the "carry a cheap gun in case you shoot somebody 'cause you'll never see it again and if you do it will be a rusted hulk with initials scratched in it and the bore plugged with Cheetos" theory of gun selection.

He says carry what you like. If its a good shooting, you'll get it back. If not, it will be the absolute least of your worries.

I had to carry the same gun for 25 years. Now, one of the benefits of my munificent retirement package is the freedom to carry whatever I want. So I do. I'm pretty sure I'm done with shooting people, but if the stars mis-align and I am in that position, I want a gun I like and I have confidence in. It might be a cheapo, but probably not.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I suppose if you don’t break the law then you have nothing to fear. If you conceal carry know the laws where you are. If you are in your house know your states laws regarding Home defense. The laws are written to protect you. Know them don’t fear them.

My .02¢

It's a seriously ****** title.

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I've still got it made.

It may be a good idea to own a second identical gun to your CCW because if you use the one you are carrying, the cops will likely take it. Then you can at least arm yourself in case the perp gets out of jail, has buddies that want to kill you, etc.

Having an identical one means you're not transitioning to something new in the middle of all the post-shooting chaos. Your holster will fit, you have spare mags, ammo, and already know how it works. You don't need the hassle of trying to buy a new gun to protect yourself while your's is locked up. You don't need the hassle of trying to learn a new gun or check how reliable a new gun is at a time like that.

If you carry a M&P, Glock, whatever, own two of them. Identical would be best, but as long as it's close enough it will work. For example, there's not really going to be a huge difference between a Commander and a Government Model to matter, or a Glock 19 and Glock 17.